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[AxSlinger7String]

I've heard that some (mostly older) brass (mostly trumpet) players have been known to sustain minor hernias of the abdomen while playing strenuous material with bad, cross-legged posture.  I once knew an 18 year old kid who got a hernia playing trumpet with a harmon mute, but he had it in far too tightly... and he wasn't very good, to much pressure and no air... 

[svenlarsson]

The hernia issue is very interesting. Now we have a pretty new room for that would fit
further discussions about hernia.
http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,36499.0.html

[Hornman805]

Hey,

A couple of quick questions here. With the daily calisthenics, would you recommend the jaw exercise for people with TMJ (slight to moderate). Also, there's mention of no vibrato in the routines AND to use only slide vibrato, not lip. One of my students had a lesson with a top LA (classical player) who told him never to use slide vibrato. Lastly, does one just start right up on the "Day," (or the "Pivot") no long tones or nothing first? Some of this stuff goes high up in the horn early on. I haven't started yet. This looks very intriguing. I plan to start tomorrow as I hurt my jaw this weekend. 

THANKS!

[Doug Elliott]

With the daily calisthenics, would you recommend the jaw exercise for people with TMJ (slight to moderate).

I would apply Reinhardt's infamous "hands off     policy" here.

One of my students had a lesson with a top LA (classical player) who told him never to use slide vibrato.

When I was finishing high school and taking college auditions, at one school the teacher told me exactly that at my audition.  I chose not to go there, despite their offer of a full 4 year scholarship.  I still think I made the right decision.

Lastly, does one just start right up on the "Day," (or the "Pivot") no long tones or nothing first? Some of this stuff goes high up in the horn early on. I haven't started yet. This looks very intriguing. I plan to start tomorrow as I hurt my jaw this weekend. 

Go back and read the earlier parts of this thread... or maybe I'm thinking of a different discussion.  I would say "it depends."

[Hornman805]

Thanks Doug. "Day 1"~ Good stuff. Something different everyday...pretty cool.

Ain't playing trombone great? Love it.

Later,
   Michael

[Hornman805]

It's hard to explain completely how to do the pencil trick effectively, but here are my instructions:

Wet your lips thoroughly.
Put the pencil end (the flat, unsharpened end) against your top front teeth - the front surface of your TOP teeth, not the biting surface. Then grip it with WET lips, as if forming your embouchure but pinching, primarily UP with your bottom lip. But keep your chin down and flat- no bunching. Bunching your chin is cheating, using chin muscles instead of lip muscles. With your lips, try to pull the pencil hard against your top teeth, which will also keep it horizontal.

 Holding it onto the front of your top teeth means the bottom lip has to reach up and do more of the work. Be sure you're not bunching your chin.

 You'll find that, following these instrutions completely, with it wet, it's almost impossible to hold it at all. You're only supposed to TRY, not necessarily be sucessful at first. If it's easy you're probably doing it wrong.

Okay Doug, now I know what bunching the chin means, too! At first I was doing it. Now I'm trying to "point it" (flat), like while playing. Got it. I would assume the jaw is forward, like while playing. Any gap in the teeth? I've been putting my front teeth together so that I'm not using my jaw (w/bottom lip slightly over teeth) to hold the pencil. Am I making sense?

Thanks,
   Michael

[Doug Elliott]

Yes, it sounds like you know what to do now.

[Hornman805]

Hello all,

Hope you're benefiting from the routines. I had PMed Rich with a few questions. He thought that maybe some of you might have similar questions. So, I'll quote it here:

Hey, Michael,

I'll put your questions in first, and my answers below:

On heavy playing days, I may do Remmington warm ups instead of Reinhardt. What do you recommend?

Turn to the Warmup #57 pages, and do those until you feel good and stop. They are excellent in and of themselves.


I started The Pivot Stabilizer on my second cycle. It kicks my butt. This seems strenuous for first thing in the day. With the larger intervals, are we to pop it up without catching any of the tones (partials) in between? How long would you recommend holding the fermata the first time around? The one that goes to high Bb, I start in 6th position (F, F, F) and work my way up the slide. What do you think?

Personally, I think it's okay if you hit *all* the partials in between, just make sure that during the whole thing you have kept the weight on the lower lip and don't let go. The fermata is just an extra couple beats or so, not going for the Guinness book of World Records. Don't forget, the last couple of those are optional, and if you have some trouble getting up to the Bb, maybe your approach is good for the time being.


Okay, with The Pencil Trick; chops, jaw and teeth all in playing position? Teeth parted? I get the "don't bunch the chin." Should I avoid th Calisthenics before playing a rehearsal or gig?

Yes, teeth parted to simulate playing. The key to success with the calisthenics is to not overdo, but make sure to consistently do them. On days of gigs or rehearsals, you sorta have to find the right balance. Maybe just "touch upon" them on those days.


I did start to see nice improvement into the 2nd cycle. BUT seem to be in a little slump the past couple of days (Day 11 tomorrow). I wonder if just a day on soft longs tones is in order. Most often I have little time to do anything but "the day."

Don't overlook Warmup #57. That is a great alternative to any of the "Days."


I am currently reading the Intro to D.S.R's Pivot System article...Very interesting but mind numbing <smile>. Is there a Doug Elliott or a Rich Willey, Reinhardt-type teacher you could recommend in the L.A., CA area (I'm an hour north)?

I don't know anybody around there, sorry. Dave Sheetz would know: "Dave Sheetz" <dsheetz@ne.rr.com>
===================

Hope this helps. It's okay to post your questions, too. Others may be helped by seeing them and the answers that someone like Doug will give.

Keep us posted!

Rich

Thanks Rich, this helps. Hope it helps others as well.

Later,
   Michael

[JimR]

Question to the group.
I have completed the 3rd cycle and really see a difference in control developing.

Here are a couple question.  I am an active doubler right now on bass.  On "tenor days" where I am predominatley working tenor, I use the Reinhardt.  On days I am primarily working bass, I use days 2 and 3 of the Teele embouchure studies.

Does this make sense?

Is there a natural extension of the Reinhardt routines into the trigger and pedal register also?  It appears the Reinhardt and Teele routines all have the same general goal - minimize shifting and develop a "one embouchure" playing style.

Am I off base here?  I would appreciate any feedback.

Thanks
JR

[Doug Elliott]

Reinhardt didn't talk or write much about his thoughts on bass trombone.  I know he taught some bass trombonists, though.  I have my own ideas about how to apply his principles to bass... even though I don't play bass trombone, myself.

I don't know the Teele stuff, so I won't comment except to say that it sounds like his ideas are generally compatible.

Keep in mind that none of this takes into account the most important aspect of Reinhardt's teaching, which was the embouchure types.  You have to get that from a teacher who understands it, not from exercises.

I would play the Reinhardt Routines on bass as they are written (maybe an abbreviated version where you only play part of each exercise), then down an octave.  Use the printed instructions, trying to tie the octaves together, the goal being to not shift.

Bass trombone range needs to include the entire tenor range PLUS an octave or two down.  Feel free to make up your own versions of each exercise, that will serve that purpose.

[Pivotbone]

Reinhardt didn't talk or write much about his thoughts on bass trombone.  I know he taught some bass trombonists, though.  I have my own ideas about how to apply his principles to bass... even though I don't play bass trombone, myself.

I don't know the Teele stuff, so I won't comment except to say that it sounds like his ideas are generally compatible.

Keep in mind that none of this takes into account the most important aspect of Reinhardt's teaching, which was the embouchure types.  You have to get that from a teacher who understands it, not from exercises.

I would play the Reinhardt Routines on bass as they are written (maybe an abbreviated version where you only play part of each exercise), then down an octave.  Use the printed instructions, trying to tie the octaves together, the goal being to not shift.

Bass trombone range needs to include the entire tenor range PLUS an octave or two down.  Feel free to make up your own versions of each exercise, that will serve that purpose.

Doug, I have a folder of Reinhardt bass trombone assignments he gave to a bass trombone student of his.  It is basically just what you said.  Many of the routines are the same he would give to tenor students (including compression drills) as well as some things modified to be done in the low bass trombone range like low chromatic fourths, slide dexterity in the low register, low interval studies, etc.

So, if you are looking to follow the Reinhardt routines on bass trombone, I would recommend doing the routines on bass as written (maybe in a condensed fashion if you are short on time) and then expand whatever particular exercises you are playing into the low trigger and bass range.  Let us know how it goes!

Rich

[JimR]

Follow up to my previous post on extending the exercises to the bass trombone and a question.

Here is how I have approached it and it seems to work pretty well (at least for my brief 2 week experience!).  Basically, I have approached using the exercises for bass trombone by extending the exercises into the Valve "air chamber" (book's terminology) and added exercises in that air chamber to each of the days in the same style as the other exercises in that day. By thinking of this in the "air chamber" view of the world, it is very consistent with the day's work and really emphasizes the "no shift" approach.  In addition, I have extended some of the exercises that go from the 2nd partial up and down to add the valve note as the low point of the exercise. That seems to work better then thinking about going down an octave with the exercises. I have a single valve 72H and keep the attachment tuned to E so I can extend down to b-natural in flat 7th throughout the exercises.  I will say, it is much more a challenge to the breath control to add the valve chamber to the work!

What I really find helpful is the very soft playing in the valve notes along with the dynamic shifts in and out of the register.  Continuing to experiment - not yet extending anything into the pedal register.  Next time through the cycle, I may go down to the natural pedal air chamber and add it in selectively.  One thing about it is adding the additional "air chambers" certainly extends the time to get through the routines because I do think it is important to exercise the upper register also and not skip that part because I am extending it lower - oh well - continuing to learn.  One thing I might do is not go through all 7 positions to keep the time closer to the same by shortening some of the exercises from seven to four repetitions only alternating 1-3-5-7 and 1-2-4-6. I believe this was mentioned in a previous post.

As I mentioned in my previous post, I also use the Phil Teele's embouchure studies (about 3 days a week when focusing on bass trombone (vs. tenor)) and this is a nice contrast but the "no shift" goal of both seem to be very consistent and complimentary (IMHO).

QUESTION
What is the thought on the forum about the importance of the set, place, breath preparation drill?  It is very interesting and it seems to bring a whole different approach to the horn at least for me.  Does the majority of people embrace this part of the teaching?  This seems to be in direct contrast to the "full open throat breathing" taught in many other circles which I would classify as more a breath, place, set routine.

THANKS
MERRY XMAS ALL

JR

[MOLTO]

I hope this will work for me for a while. I went ahead and ordered it with the jazz studies in bass clef book. If I have trouble with it, I can work on #57 for a while and get help from my instructor.

Thanks!


Does anyone have any recommendations for double tonguing? I try and try and try and I feel like maybe I'm double-tonguing-deficient. Occasionally I can single tongue really fast. I'm so inconsistent. I wish I could double tongue and triple tongue really well... *sigh* 

[Andrew Meronek]

Does anyone have any recommendations for double tonguing? I try and try and try and I feel like maybe I'm double-tonguing-deficient. Occasionally I can single tongue really fast. I'm so inconsistent. I wish I could double tongue and triple tongue really well... *sigh* 

As in all things trombone, slow it down and work on consistency and accuracy. Isolate your syllables. Speed comes later.

[Andrew Meronek]

I've been able to figure out the purpose behind most of the exercise in this book. But what is the elasticity routine for?

[Doug Elliott]

My description of the Elasticity Routine is "telling the horn what to do intead of letting it tell you."  It involves bending the pitch UP and down between harmonics.  It is a strength exercise, controlling the pitch by your own effort regardless of where the horn's resonance wants it to be.  When you can play a good solid middle C in first position, that's control.

If you're one of those people who thinks that all pratice should be devoted to music and producing a great sound, you won't enjoy it and you won't understand the benefit to such an exercise.

[Andrew Meronek]

Ah, okay. Thanks, Doug; that would have been my first guess, but the routine's focus primarily in the mid to upper register made me wonder if something else was going on. Most pitch bending exercises to this effect that I've seen have focused on the lower register.

Am I correct to assume that I'd do this exercise with a normal mouthpiece seal? I know that I can bend the pitch just about any way I want with about a "half seal," and then as I make the seal more complete, pitches slot into their partials more strongly, and I find it extremely difficult to bend the pitch upward more than about a half step, or downward more than about halfway down to the next partial, with a full seal.

[Doug Elliott]

Normal mouthpiece pressure.  Yes, it's very difficult.  Go from one full sounding harmonic to the next full sounding harmonic, making as full sound in between as possible, no backing off.  It IS possible, with work.

[Andrew Meronek]

Okay; thanks, Doug.

[RichWilley]

I got an email from Mike Bowlus, and I've tried replying twice and it bounced both times. If you're here, please send me a PM so that I can reply to you regarding the Reinhardt Routines for trombone.

Sorry for the interruption . . . carry on.