next »

[MoominDave]

I've never heard of a modern trombone with a piston-valve-actuated trigger attachment, much less a modern bass trombone with two. But the advantages seem considerable - a straight airway when the valve is not engaged, and potentially only a little bending of the airway when it is. In addition, all the R&D of the actual valve design was done donkey's years ago.
The valve(s) would have to run parallel to the neck, and so the standard trigger positioning would involve a slightly elaborate linkage - but in this configuration there would be none of the ergonomic problems inherent in having large rotary designs.

Has anyone considered the possibilities of the humble piston valve as a free-flow alternative to the myriad rotary designs that have appeared in the last few years?

[Alex]

I thought I saw some pictures (on this site) of a Yamaha with some kind of piston valve on the F attachment quite recently. I think the product is/was only available in Japan.

There must be a good reason why piston valves have not become the valve of choice on trombones. Maybe it's just down to ergonomics.

Hopefully someone will know of the Yamaha I'm thinking of.

[JBledsoe]

I thought I saw some pictures (on this site) of a Yamaha with some kind of piston valve on the F attachment quite recently. I think the product is/was only available in Japan.

There must be a good reason why piston valves have not become the valve of choice on trombones. Maybe it's just down to ergonomics.

Hopefully someone will know of the Yamaha I'm thinking of.

  I know the horn you are speaking about. Perhaps Walt could chime in as he might know more than I. I first saw this horn on an album cover of Akira Kuwata. I asked John Whittmann (Artist Relations and Education Manager) and he confirmed that there are models in Japan that are not available in the US. For some reason, the term "Y Valve" is ringing a bell, but I could be remembering that from somewhere else and projecting it on to this.

[bonesmarsh]

Canadian Alain Trudel had one of the prototypes and played it at a masterclass I attended in 2000.

The valve failed so often that eventually he made a joke of it and just played fake-tones...which worked quite well, because the tone quality of the valved pitches with a piston were fairly similar to fake tones.

In the space of 90 minutes Alain must have jerked the bone off of his shoulder 50 times to look and see in which position the valve was, as it was failing that often.

[WaltTrombone]

That valve is shaped like a piston, but doesn't travel up and down. It spins, more like an axial flow valve.

There have been piston valves used for trombones. IIRC, Doug Yeo has one, with pictures on his website.

[MoominDave]

Here's the link:
http://www.yeodoug.com/articles/trombone_gallery/trombone_gallery.html

I recalled seeing pictures of very old examples of trombones with a piston valve, such as these, but these don't seem positioned for maximum freeflowness or left hand convenience - the idea with these is that one presses the piston directly with one's finger, not, as I suggest, that they could be rigged up to a standard left-hand position.

If the valve(s) were a little further along the tube, and perpendicular to it (and probably somewhat bigger in piston cross-section), one could combine the "Trubore" idea of the Shires valve with the lack of bends of the Thayer valve and the ease of maintenance of a traditional piston.

[BGuttman]

You guys purposely ignoring all those valve trombones out there, or the Holton SuperBone?

When I was looking at trombones back in High School, there was a Bach model with a piston valve attachment.  Open wrap, too!  Probably didn't sell very well because during my 20 year hiatus it disappeared from the catalog (1965 to 1984).

[WaltTrombone]

You guys purposely ignoring all those valve trombones out there, or the Holton SuperBone?

Yes.

[BFW]

Walt, I thought you had developed your own valve along these lines.  Something called the Walter Piston.

[WaltTrombone]

I was, but I was having a hard time Orchestrating the production. This Incredible Flutist was going to bankroll it, but he moved to Tunbridge Fair.

[elmsandr]

There is a German manufacturer out there that does conversions for single and double valve instruments to piston valves.  Looks great.  The ergonomics are a little tricky and not very conventional.  I used to have a picture of some somewhere....

The valves sat at about a 60deg angle to the neckpipe with the piston angling forward.

Looks like it worked OK, but does not seem to have caught on...

Cheers,
Andy

[japanballer51]

http://yamaha.jp/product/winds/trombones/tenorbasstrombones/ysl-882v/

sorry if this topic has faded away or not but here is a pic. this.

[Edward_Solomon]

Adolphe Sax thought of the idea well over 100 years ago. French tenor-bass trombones were built by him with piston valves in the 19th century and clearly never proved popular because it wasn't long before they disappeared from the catalogue. See Anthony Baines for an illustration.

[elmsandr]

http://yamaha.jp/product/winds/trombones/tenorbasstrombones/ysl-882v/

sorry if this topic has faded away or not but here is a pic. this.

Err.. not a piston.  This is an axial rotary valve.

Anyway, I found the pic:


Two pistons on what I believe is a Bach 50.  I cannot locate their website any longer, it was a German aftermarket modification.

Cheers,
Andy

[bobertthebone]

Just as a comment, wouldn't it be a bit bumpy when engaging the attachment?  It doesnt seem like pistons are as smooth as rotary valves.

[MoominDave]

Which is why all those crazy running-around parts in the brass band repertoire are written for piston-valved instruments, right?   
The truth of the matter tends to be the other way around - the linkages on rotaries make them ponderous to use on instruments which have to play fast running passages.
In terms of the continuity of the air column, I see no disadvantage to pistons over rotaries - in both cases you interrupt and reestablish the column.

Ed - yeah, I know the design was tried back in the day, and was selected out of the gene pool. I imagine that the reason for the failure was the unwieldiness of the action - exactly as shown in the picture that Andy has posted. However, one could hook up rotary-style linkages to the pistons to aid the ergonomics, and then the potential airflow advantages could be exploited in a familiar configuration - my idea was that this is a design that could bear reevaluation in the light of modern R&D.

[baileyman]

I thought it might have something to do with the unlevered throw of a piston valve for large diameter tubing.  The reason lots of tubas are rotary.