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[Jason8844]

They didn't let you have that money on your good looks and a handshake.

FINALLY!!!!! Someone recognizes me for the fine specimen of masculinity I am! 


(Edit from original post-  I got the top of the page post!!! Woo-hoo)

[NYCbone]

I guess my cut and paste skills went wonky at that moment. But...

Read what I wrote carefully. I was asking about William Ayers.

The 'misquote' though unintentional is actually sort of funny - sorry that you can't see the humor.

If it makes you feel any better, you can tell people that I'm an anarchist. Or tell them that I'm the antichrist.

Here, you can 'misquote' me if you like:

First off, you must all think I am the worst person in the world. You all must think I am some kind of radical like Friedrich Nietzsche who was a self-proclaimed antichrist. I am here to tell you, I am not.

 (?)

Hey NYCBone,

I do not appreciate you quoting me out of context. I did NOT say "I am some kind of anti-government radical like William Ayers who is a self proclaimed anarchist."; I said "First off, you must all think I am the worst person in the world. You all must think I am some kind of anti-government radical like William Ayers who is a self proclaimed anarchist. I am here to tell you, I am not."

If you are going to quote me, please do not quote me in a way that mischaracterizes me. I find this to be disingenuous and a dirty trick. Someone who may not have read my original post may have taken away me saying I was an anarchist. I ask that you edit your post and quote me in context.

[Silver3B]

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/19/business/economy/19ports.html?em

[evan51]

Detroit must die--- or so writes a columnist from the SF Chronicle.

Alex Jones from Prison Planet is against the bailout, but believes that maintaining our remaining manufacturing base is a matter of national security.http://www.prisonplanet.com/ He also claims much of the $5 trillion bailout package (it was more than the $750 billion we were told) went to foreign banks and the Fed refuses to tell Congress where the money went.

[Andrew Meronek]

So what's wrong with streamlining the industry and allowing some NEW American auto companies to establish themselves? One of the problems with the Big 3 is that they have been completely stifling to emeging auto companies in the U.S. for a LONG time. Due in large part to the enormous political influence they wield, as is evidence of the current Congressional hearings.

[Silver3B]

Alex Jones from Prison Planet is against the bailout, but believes that maintaining our remaining manufacturing base is a matter of national security

What a fool....doesn't he know that Wal Mart will save us.  

[evan51]

Romney adamantly against auto industry bailout

WASHINGTON – Former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney is standing steadfastly behind the forces opposing a $25 billion "bridge loan" for struggling Detroit auto manufacturers.

Speaking Thursday morning amid growing signs of gridlock in Congress, Romney said "there's no question but that if you just write a check, you're going to see these companies go out of business ultimately."

He told CBS's "The Early Show" that he doesn't want to see the carmakers go out of business, "but we don't want them to continue business as usual."

Romney, who unsuccessfully sought the Republican presidential nomination, has ties to Michigan. His father, George Romney, headed an auto company there and was the state's governor.

Mitt Romney said Thursday he believes bankruptcy filings or an out of court settlement might be the best answer "get these companies into a competitive position so that they can stay, grow and add jobs."

[Silver3B]

Mitt Romney said Thursday he believes bankruptcy filings or an out of court settlement might be the best answer "get these companies into a competitive position so that they can stay, grow and add jobs."

And...have their employees buy everything, Made in China, at Wal Mart.

[Elkhart 88H]

Detroit must die--- or so writes a columnist from the SF Chronicle.

It's articles like this one that make me glad that so many traditional newspapers, including the New York Times, are in not much better financial shape than General Motors is.  We may soon see several of these dinosaurs slip into a well-deserved extinction.

[Elkhart 88H]

So what's wrong with streamlining the industry and allowing some NEW American auto companies to establish themselves? One of the problems with the Big 3 is that they have been completely stifling to emeging auto companies in the U.S. for a LONG time. Due in large part to the enormous political influence they wield, as is evidence of the current Congressional hearings.

The capital cost of starting a new car company is daunting, to say the least.  The last several people who tried to start a new automaker in the U.S. failed due to undercapitalization.  The last one who succeeded was Walter P. Chrysler in 1924.  The richest one who failed was Henry Kaiser in the 1950s.  The cost of meeting government regulations on crash safety and emissions has made the price of admission even higher than it was in Kaiser's day.  The computer models, prototypes and tests required to certify a car these days don't come cheap.

[Brisko]

Two questions for you...

1. Can you name one government agency that has spent the money allocated to serve its needs with efficiency, little waste, accountability and within budget? You mention Medicare.... I hate to break the news to you, but it is the dragging Social Security into the gutter. The waste from fraud and bloated budget needs the system is on borrowed time. When you think of government run healthcare, think of the DMV. (While writing this, I have to admit I thought of one agency that does a good job with its mandate, the IRS. The government is darn good at taking your money fast and efficient. Putting it to good use is another thing).

2. Can you name one government organization or sponsored enterprise that gets better results than a comparable private sector institution? Private schools are known to be better than public schools. UPS and FedEx are posting profits while the USPS is getting ready to lay 14,000 workers due to billions in losses.

Look, Jason, I'm willing to concede the Medicare efficiency point for a couple of reasons.  Medicare does have very low administrative costs compared to a private insurer, but the comparison is not apples:apples.  One reason is that Medicare isn't forced to work through the Gordian knot of federal and state regulations that private insurers do.  There are other reasons it doesn't compare well, too.  I noticed that you chose to ignore my first two points (which are far stronger arguments).  Would you like to comment on those?

That being said, the rest of your counter-examples face the same problems.  While there is some overlap between USPS and UPS and Fedex, they are not comparable.  USPS is still primarily a letter carrier.  UPS and Fedex are parcel carriers.  Furthermore, according to the USPS, the layoff claim is not true and their  $2.8 billion losses are due to the slowing economy and federally mandated prefunding of retiree health benefits.

Oh, and the DMV is a state, not federal agency (and here in MN, ours is quite good).

Sorry to everyone for the threadjack.  I'm of two minds on the Detroit issue.  While I'd rather see them restructure under bankruptcy, I'm also not excited about what would amount to a busted union were that to occur.

[mwpfoot]

It's articles like this one that make me glad that so many traditional newspapers, including the New York Times, are in not much better financial shape than General Motors is.  We may soon see several of these dinosaurs slip into a well-deserved extinction.

Just to be clear, the author of that is a full-time ****-stirrer in the opinion section. I found all of his stuff quite annoying in tone and content so I don't read him anymore.

 

[Andrew Meronek]

The capital cost of starting a new car company is daunting, to say the least.  The last several people who tried to start a new automaker in the U.S. failed due to undercapitalization.  The last one who succeeded was Walter P. Chrysler in 1924.  The richest one who failed was Henry Kaiser in the 1950s.  The cost of meeting government regulations on crash safety and emissions has made the price of admission even higher than it was in Kaiser's day.  The computer models, prototypes and tests required to certify a car these days don't come cheap.

The difficulty of such an endeavor does not negate the need for it.

[Andrew Meronek]

So, Jason, you would have all the manufacturers in the US go belly-up (incidentally, if titsup was a bad word, it would show up as all ******) because there isn't a level playing field between US workers who have to pay for medical insurance (and therefore have to have salaries that can afford it) and workers in Socialist countries like China.  You realize that if our Manufacturing disappears:

This is a slippery slope to assume that if GM goes bankrupt, all manufacturers in the U.S. will go belly-up.

In addition, in just about all socialist countries, the free medical care is offset by increased taxes and this increased cost of living. Chinese workers are cheaper because their economy is still developing, not because they are Socialist.

[MoominDave]

In addition, in just about all socialist countries, the free medical care is offset by increased taxes and this increased cost of living. Chinese workers are cheaper because their economy is still developing, not because they are Socialist.

I suppose this point must seem particularly obvious in Belgium, where the tax wedge is comfortably the highest in the world, exceeding 50%, approx. twice what it is here, where it doesn't seem nearly so obvious.

That said, as long as you stay within your country's economy, the fact that everybody is paying together means that nobody is paying relatively more than others, and so you don't feel poorer.

[Andrew Meronek]

I suppose this point must seem particularly obvious in Belgium, where the tax wedge is comfortably the highest in the world, exceeding 50%, approx. twice what it is here, where it doesn't seem nearly so obvious.

That said, as long as you stay within your country's economy, the fact that everybody is paying together means that nobody is paying relatively more than others, and so you don't feel poorer.

Exactly my observations so far.

Belgium, as I have learned, is a democratic socialist country. They have pretty good universal health care and extensive welfare. So much so in the welfare department that in fact it's a bad decision in Belgium to take low paying jobs because often the welfare pays better. And for those jobs that do pay better, it's advantageous for people out of college to deliberately not take a job and get on welfare, because the government provides an incentive for companies to hire people off of welfare before hiring people straight out of college. Yes, Belgium has a 50%+ tax rate, and it also has very high unemployment rates.

[Elkhart 88H]

Here's another view on the auto bailout, eloquently argued by Rep. Thaddeus McCotter from Michigan's 11th District.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=U7YBjjLKLd0

[Elkhart 88H]

The difficulty of such an endeavor does not negate the need for it.

Why would any sane investor take the risk of starting a new auto company when he or she could make much more money, with far less risk of failure, by starting a hedge fund or venture capital company instead?  IMO, this is the reason that there have been no credible efforts to start a new auto company in at least twenty years.  (I don't count Tesla Motors as a credible effort, as their main products to date appear to be smoke, mirrors and empty promises.)

[Driswood]

Last night I heard the following numbers. Could someone more up on this confirm/refute these?

As soon as the car even comes off the line:
GM loses $700.00 per vehicle
Ford loses $1400.00 per vehicle
Chrysler loses $400.00 per vehicle

If this is true, who's running this?!?!

CNN interviewed Honda employees at an engine plant in Ohio, who make $48.00 per hour. They are against the bailout.

Reason?

They don't want their tax dollars paying the salaries of their competitors!

I agree with them.

Jerry Walker

[Elkhart 88H]

... CNN interviewed Honda employees at an engine plant in Ohio, who make $48.00 per hour. They are against the bailout.

Reason?

They don't want their tax dollars paying the salaries of their competitors!

I agree with them.

Jerry Walker

Those Honda workers may sing a different tune when their own production lines fall idle due to lack of parts from bankrupt Detroit 3 suppliers who also sell key parts to Honda.