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[John S. Lipton]

My fellow Americans,

I am writing this to reach out to my fellow countrymen of all political colors. I am asking you; where has all our common sense gone? Our President and Congress are going to destory this country! Why are we sitting back and and letting it happen? When W. was in office there seems to have been posts everyday on this board about a critisism of his administration. Why has this stopped just because Obama is in office? Why are all the intelligent people who like to opine and expouse on these tpoics grown silent in all this recent bailout and spending mess? Fiscal irresponsiblity is bad no matter who is doing it. We had W. Running up a 500 billion dollar deficit, passed a nearly 700 billion dollar bailout, the Obama doubles down on the deficit, adds about 800 billion dollar bailout, a 400 billion dollar spending bill with 9000 earmarks and is going to give nearly another billion to Hamas. Where is all this money coming from??? Why are we letting them spend this money? They are going to ruin this nation, devalue the dollar and makes slaves of us all to the state.

I have a question for all my fellow Americans -

1. If you are a Republican or conservative, why are you not standing up and fighting this administration harder?

2. If you are a Democrat or a Liberal, if you were out spoken about the "big spending" and deficit spending W, then why do you think it is ok to let Obama who has been in office for less than 60 days spend more money than we have and will put us in debt for generations to come? Why is it bad for W, but not bad for Obama to do?

I am wondering how many people have common sense out there instead of being blind political followers of anyone. Am I the only one around here upset about this all?

[BFW]

Have you not been following the topics on the financial bailout and the withdrawal plans?  Seems to me that plenty is being said.  Obama doesn't get a free pass.

I'm wondering what ANY of this has to do with common sense?  Unless "common sense" means "believes what I believe" or "holds political positions I agree with."

[John S. Lipton]

Have you not been following the topics on the financial bailout and the withdrawal plans?  Seems to me that plenty is being said.  Obama doesn't get a free pass.

I'm wondering what ANY of this has to do with common sense? Unless "common sense" means "believes what I believe" or "holds political positions I agree with."

Common Sense = Fiscal Responsibility

Throwning money all around and at everything is not a common sense solution to anything no matter if you are a liberal or conservative.

I also did not say anything about "beliefs" or politics. I thought not spending more than you have and not wasting money is common sense. I thought I was clear and was attempting to find common ground among people of different political stripes. I thought it was common sense that if irresponsible fiscal policy got us into this mess, then doing more is not going to help. Seems like logical and common sense to me. Guess I am a weirdo.

[BFW]

Thanks for the clarification.  I couldn't care less whether a particular solution was common sense.  I do care whether it's fiscally responsible.

I would agree that "throwing money around" is fiscally irresponsible.  I don't think I agree that providing funds for things constitutes throwing money around, and I don't think I agree that all the current measures being taken to attempt to deal with the financial crisis constitute throwing money around.  I do have my concerns.

There was an interesting interview on the radio (Fresh Air, on NPR) yesterday with the former head economist of the IMF; he had much to say regarding dealing with the crisis, including some agreement and some disagreement with current policies.  If I can find the link, I'll post it later (unless someone beats me to it).

[B0B]

Good evening,
BFW, I heard that interview as well. Interesting stuff.


John, during Bush's time one of the longest wars in american history was continuously funded through extra "emergency" bills even though there was no clear end in sight and we'd been there for years. The economic downfall was a good ways in coming and fairly easily seen, yet Paulson and the like said all was good until... the sky is falling. Give me 700 billion or else. And so on and so on. The biggest difference I see is that Bush and the republicans took massive amounts of unneeded money and threw it to their friends. Obama actually needs it, and is trying to put it to good use.


Obama is placed in one of the hardest situations an american president has ever had to face coming into office. Our foreign policy is wrecked. We are at two wars that we do not have the power to win. And they aren't even the number one concern. Our economy has been eaten from the inside out for the past two or three decades and it's just starting to fall apart. He didn't get us there, he just has to deal with it. The least we can do is give him the benefit of the doubt.

Sure you can be upset. Sure you can be angry as hell. I've been that way since we decided to invade Iraq. But as much as I hate us being there, it'll be worse if we just cut and run. Similar with the economy. I hate the flagrant spending, but doing nothing can be far far worse. And quite frankly, I haven't heard a single idea from anyone against the massive spending that is useful and anything but... "oh them democrates are going to grow the government and be irresponsible with money" and so on. The most idiotic thing is that many of these calls are from the republicans in congress. The same group that help the government get to become the largest government in our history with the largest debt and still our infrastructure crumbles.

So any other ideas that don't drop us into one hell of a depression?

Take care,
B0B

[kbiggs]

The interview with Simon Johnson:  http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=101360253

"Fiscal responsibility" does not equate to common sense.  If we were all "blessed" with "common sense," we wouldn't be in the current financial and economic mess.  And there wouldn't be any need to distinguish between "liberals," "conservatives," "Democrats," "Republicans," or whatever else you want to parse out.  If we were to rely on "common sense" to help muddle our way out of the current financial crisis, we'd be waiting a long time indeed.  In fact, there's every reason to believe that what you call "common sense" is exactly the kind of thinking that got us into this mess. 

Asking "Why do you think it is ok to let Obama who has been in office for less than 60 days spend more money than we have and will put us in debt for generations to come? Why is it bad for W, but not bad for Obama to do?"  is to fundamentally misunderstand the present situation, as well as basic economic theory--and, I might add, "common sense."  It's not about just spending "money."  It's about what the money will be spent on, or how you use the money.  The last 8 years, we spent billions on 2 wars, NCLB (a bureaucratic, fiscal and educational bankruptcy), the lure of cheap money and a house for everyone (whether they could afford it or not) . . . and what have we to show for it?  Boy oh boy, that's "fiscal responsibility" for you. 

Where do you think the money should come from?   How will you get "the people responsible" (whoever they are, be it W., Paulson, Greenspan, the presidents of banks, the NYSE, or the head of the SEC. . .)?  When banks fail, who do you think pays?  Who paid during the Great Depression?  The S&L scandal of the late 80's?  When the banks fail, the government is the only other institution available. 

"Am I the only one around here upset about this all?"  Please.  As if you're the only one who isn't upset about the present state of affairs.  Quite frankly, if you were upset about how we got here instead of griping about the proposed solution, I could understand your righteous indignation.  As it is, you sound like the typical right-wing fiscal conservative that got us into this mess. 

[gpkimzey]

If there even is such a thing as "common" sense, then we all posess it, by definition.  That is, it is common to all.

[evan51]

Imbalances have been building up for 28 years, culminating in the disastrous and calamitous presidency Of George Bush II. Money to be spent within the country has a different impact than money spent to "defense" contractors to kill strangers half-way around the world. The devil is in the details, but the "fix" (like the problem) is hardly a matter of common sense. I can tell from the posts that many are confused by the facts and spout Limbaugh-esque emotional rhetoric instead of anything (common)sensical or factual. Not a promising start to this thread.

[Baron von Bone]

If there even is such a thing as "common" sense, then we all posess it, by definition.  That is, it is common to all.

Exactly. That's just it. "Common sense" is what each of those who are enamored with the fallacy decide it is, which means it's rarely common or sensible.
 
Byron

[jaws241]

Personally, I thought common sense meant not getting two mortgages on your home and purchasing 5 plasma-screen TVs and going to jamaica.

[BGuttman]

Personally, I thought common sense meant not getting two mortgages on your home and purchasing 5 plasma-screen TVs and going to Jamaica.

Bravo, Jaws.  Second mortgages have their place:

1.  Expensive repairs to the house.
2.  College expenses for the kids.
3.  Captializing a new business.
4.  Catastrophic medical expenses.

We had too many people using their houses as ATM's to support a rather extravagant life style.

[evan51]

I hear many right wing/hate talk radio types talking about "consumer greed" as a cause of our current financial crisis. Yes; many people availed themselves of the loosened credit to buy houses and consumer goods. And that, coupled with a sagging job market spelled catastrophe for many. It created personal hardship. But this is not the "cause" of the problems that could no longer be contained and split apart in October of 2008. The bailouts go so far beyond the extent of any mortgage and consumer credit bubble this should be obvious to anyone. Conducting two wars whilst giving out tax cuts and rebates certainly didn't help our prognosis. The manipulations of the "financial industry" are the real culprit and the ones who can conceal their tracks the easiest.

Behind all the drama, many forces are at work in the world economy:
1. Globalization. Countries throughout the world are looking to move their economies forward, especially the new "mega-economies" in India and China, where there are huge, intelligent, motivated workers who will work for less than 1/10th of an American or Western European wage. By law, American corporations must seek the highest profit (not that they need to be told, BTW), and jobs are moving off our shores. At the same time, our economy hasn't adjusted to the new realities. We make airplanes and avionics, weapons, we grow food, we do R&D in many areas, we do construction (if there are buyers, etc.), but the lion's share of our daily economy is now service industry related. Much  of our technology is extremely advanced, secret even, and not the kind we can share or sell. Our place in the new world economy is uncertain. Perhaps we shall face a "leveling" that our leaders do not want to discuss with us as I believe the nature and extent of our resources and capabilities is known to many decision makers and the change in our lifestyle and expectations will be painful to us.

2. Population. We've probably gone past a turning point where we can deal with overpopulation on our terms. The planet will now have its say as resources, water, air, arable land, energy is running out and populations increase. The cost of these resources will increase, both in currency and doubtless human life and suffering as things move forward.

3. Environment. Global climate change, toxins in air and water, extinction of species, destruction of the rain forest, heating of the oceans are threatening us. Time is being compressed as Earth can no longer recycle and clean at a rate to compensate for humans.

4. Social controls. Personal freedom and personal choice is now seen as a threat in virtually every industrialized country. Regulations, laws, statutes, and strict enforcement through cameras, satellites, GPS tracking, even sub dermal RFID chips await us in the very near future.

So....lacking a consensus on identifying problems, and lacking the political will and integrity to deal with these situations in an honest and positive manner, we've had 28 years of placing duct tape on the playground basketball. At some point there is no basketball---only tape. I think we have reached it. I'm concerned that politicians can't save us at this point. They can only seek to save themselves. I heard today that UBS, the Swiss bank doing business in the US, can't reveal Swiss accounts of US citizens because it would violate Swiss banking law. One congressman states we lose $100 billion in taxes just to these accounts (and yet the Republicans still demand more tax cuts for the rich ).

The very things that made us a successful species (ability to mold environments, agriculture, intelligence, reproductive rates, lifespans, etc.) are now the same things that threaten to destroy us. Conscious evolution is the only solution that offers a long term solution---we need to become better creatures. In the meantime, we need to demand truth over action, knowledge over belief and rhetoric, and to control fear, greed and lust while we put the house in order. Behind all the talk do we still have a notion of what it means to be Americans? Is it a matter of consuming? Is that all "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness" mean to us?

[mwpfoot]

We had too many people using their houses as ATM's to support a rather extravagant life style.

I take the exact same circumstances and say that the true problem was that there were too many corporations acting maliciously and recklessly, simple as that. They were targeting and marketing and selling and lending and repackaging everything to anyone and everyone knowing full well that the system was unsustainable. As long as they got theirs in the short term it was rewarded with obscene bonuses and options. These vampires had to GROW their interchangeable corporations by hook or by crook, because sustainability doesn't fuel the speculation on the market that make the fat cats happy. Sustainability is failure; grow grow grow.

The working and non-working individuals wanting more than they could afford are certainly a problem in our society, but the corporations that enabled people to hopelessly sink themselves WITHIN a supposedly regulated system are CRIMINALS that knowingly took advantage. The population was also trying to get ahead, yes, but ultimately should be considered victims when compared to what those above them got away with and from whom they took it.

 

[evan51]

Another angle on these bailouts is that Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, and others had the private pension funds among their top clients----the teachers' funds, UAW, and scores of other funds. If these companies were allowed to go under these workers would have been left destitute in their retirement years (which can be 20-30 years nowadays!). The interconnectedness of the financial system is what can bring it down so fast, both internationally and nationally.

[evan51]

I am wondering how many people have common sense out there instead of being blind political followers of anyone. Am I the only one around here upset about this all?

Yes; you are absolutely amazing.

[ABinkard]

Conscious evolution

Careful on the word choice. 

[slidemansailor]

In 1913, the legislative and executive branches of the USA government gave control of the US dollar to private banking interests in the name of The Federal Reserve.

Though completely illegal under The Constitution, this giveaway survived nearly 100 years without any successful challenges. In that period of time, the value of the dollar they were supposedly chartered to protect has degraded by 99%.

WHO got THAT money?  Yeah, the 99% went into somebody's pocket.  You should be outraged at 95 years-worth of politicians and bankers who robbed us.  But you are most likely blaming one of the two most recent Presidents.   SUCKER.

Common sense would have all of the thieves hanging by their Gucci ties from the nearest lamppost. But instead, we choose to stupidly nod our heads when they talk.

Now they are ACCELERATING the demise of the dollar. This should really fire us up. But they have pretty people saying pretty words on our pretty TVs.  Who could get pissed when it all sounds so pretty.

When you are playing your King on the street corner for a bowl of soup, please try to remember who stole it all from you.

[Thomas Matta]

Common Sense = "Sound judgment not based on specialized knowledge; native good judgment."

Hmmmmmm.......

[BGuttman]

Common Sense = "Sound judgment not based on specialized knowledge; native good judgment."

Hmmmmmm.......

I agree.  Seems to be a lot of bloviating here, though.

Lots of criticism without suggestions.  Don't like what is going on?  Tell me what you think should happen and what you expect the result to be.

[Baron von Bone]

I agree.  Seems to be a lot of bloviating here, though.

The problem is that far too much usage renders the term pretty meaningless. If someone uses the term and you don't know that person relatively well, you have no idea if what they're talking about is either common or makes any sense. In fact based upon the fact that most people who use the term use it just like faith, to artificially bolster a position they can't defend with reason or evidence, the odds are that neither are the case.
 
Byron