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Author Topic: Open wrap? Closed wrap?  (Read 17021 times)
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BGuttman
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« Reply #40 on: Sep 04, 2017, 11:58AM »

The guy on the left in the first picture of your first post has a VERY open wrap! :-P

(Is that Glenn Dodgson?)
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #41 on: Sep 04, 2017, 12:14PM »

The guy on the left in the first picture of your first post has a VERY open wrap! :-P

(Is that Glenn Dodgson Dodson?)

Oh yeah. Sure is. The poser on the right with the actual open wrap is Charlie Vernon. I can picture them making fun of poor ol' Charlie and his open wrap back then.

Glenn: "Stupid dumb Charlie and your weird custom trombone wrap and weird leather hand grips. You are so silly"
Joe:   "Yeah, see... What he said, see... Bet you can't play licks like this with those dumb leather hand grips!"
Charlie: "Aw come on guys!"
Glenn:  "Shut it, Joe. Stinkin' second fiddle."
Joe:   "Sorry Glenn..."
Charlie: "...Well...your face looks like Pond's Cold Cream..."
Joe:   "...Shut up, Charlie..."
Charlie: " :( Wuhl' OK guys..."
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« Reply #42 on: Sep 04, 2017, 01:24PM »

David Cantero, principal trombone of LA Phil, plays a closed wrap 42BG.

Noah Gladstone's super Bach 42s are really great- the closed wrap version with a new valve is especially good.

I would have kept the closed wrap on my 42B, but the valve I bought doesn't accommodate it.
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BGuttman
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« Reply #43 on: Sep 04, 2017, 01:50PM »

...

I would have kept the closed wrap on my 42B, but the valve I bought doesn't accommodate it.

Hagmann's and Thayers (and some others) don't support conventional wraps.  Best you can do is a loop that shortens the extension of the open wrap like the LaRosa.
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« Reply #44 on: Sep 04, 2017, 01:53PM »

Do they typically make closed wraps with a slightly larger bore in the "wrap" section to make up for potential loss in tone quality? Or am I making that up?
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« Reply #45 on: Sep 04, 2017, 02:08PM »

Do they typically make closed wraps with a slightly larger bore in the "wrap" section to make up for potential loss in tone quality? Or am I making that up?

You aren't making it up, although there are some attachments that are the same bore as the slide tubing.  Why larger?  Probably because the bore of the instrument at that point is generally larger than the slide.  Don't know if it's intended to compensate for anything.  On the other hand, the attachment tubing on my Olds Ambassador with F was actually SMALLER than the slide tubing.
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #46 on: Sep 04, 2017, 02:14PM »

Larger tubing on the F attachment is to match the outer handslide measurement.

For example-- .547 inner handslide uses a .562 outer handslide to fit over the inner. There is no loss of "sound quality." Nobody listening will ever know if you are using the trigger and valve or not-- ever.

They sell the larger bore as a means to match the extended 6th position F in 6th using the outerslide as the bore needed. So, the F attachment matches the outer extended, a larger bore.
Now, if this were a "real thing" then all of the other brass instruments would be using mismatched bores....and all trumpets would be a mess of different bore sizes all over the place.
But, it is only a trombone thing.

Eventually marketing sold the larger bore F attachment on modern horns as a modern thing, to differentiate from antiquated designs. It is a sales point.
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« Reply #47 on: Sep 04, 2017, 02:31PM »

Do they typically make closed wraps with a slightly larger bore in the "wrap" section to make up for potential loss in tone quality? Or am I making that up?

To expand on what Kevin said: Both open and closed wrap horns typically have a larger bore. That design predates open wraps. Bach 36s, for example, use 562 tubing for their F attachment (indicdentally, the same as the 42 as others have mentioned).  The exception to the rule are horns that have the same bore size such as the King 6B, 3B+ (well, close at least, 525 inner, 530 tubing if I'm recalling rightly). Some of the Yamaha medium bores might as well but I've never measured it; nor do they provide the specs online unfortunately.

Interestingly, the Shires rotor they use on their altos and small bore horns evidently was designed for the alto first, but I also don't know what its bore size is.  So that might also be close.

Another exception are some Hagmann valves which come as small as .530. So some horns with a Hagmann valve have a tubing that is the same bore as the inner slide. Those come in both open, closed, and my personal favorite, their "German" wrap. 

It, sort of, is for tone in the sense that the size of the tubing makes a difference. But it isn't necessarily to 'compensate' for closed or open wrap.
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« Reply #48 on: Sep 05, 2017, 12:27AM »

The difference for me between open and closed wrap is not how they play (to me, that's more the individual horn than the wrap) but the fact that the open wraps with a long F section are dent magnets and hard to work with in cramped spaces.

I play a Thayer now.  I guess that would be labelled an open wrap, but the F side doesn't protrude farther than the Bb side, so I'm fine with it.

I did play a closed wrap Bach 42 for a long time (mostly because open wraps didn't exist when I got it).
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« Reply #49 on: Sep 05, 2017, 05:36AM »

Aside from valves that can't be configured with a closed wrap, the condensation drainage is the one practical advantage of open wrap. If you are always playing on the valves like you do on a bass you want the water to drain down the slide instead of getting trapped in the wrap. The idea is that between raising the horn to play and resing in the slide down position, all the water drains to the slide. When the wrap gets water in it, you pull the F tuning slide and tilt the horn backwards(for Conns, Yammies and Kings may involve a twist or flip).

I imagine open wraps are cheaper to make because they have fewer bends and joints. The Thayer wrap doesn't stick out behind because it goes forward to the bell brace.
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« Reply #50 on: Sep 05, 2017, 09:41AM »

One of each.
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« Reply #51 on: Sep 19, 2017, 10:46AM »

Very interesting to hear.  Back when I had a Bach 42b in high school, I rarely used the attachment because of the awful sound, and sold the horn.  Now, that I am playing again and looking to get an F-attachment, I was sure I wanted an open wrap to avoid the problem. But you are saying the problem with my old Bach was the valve! So, I'll take your advice: listen to the horn when I am shopping now!
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