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[evan51]

I've spent considerable time in Denmark, Norway, and a bit in Sweden and Iceland.
 
There is not the grotesque disparity there between the rich and the poor that we have. Everyone has medical care and a pension. There is little unemployment. There is free education available. Money is not the purpose of life, nor is money considered a mark of merit that distinguishes one above his countrymen. There is indeed rather high taxation, although it ends to be more open. Not eveyone has a car, although they are not usually necessary as public transportation goes everywhere. Crime rates, especially violent crimes are very low---single digits for murders.

Some countries in Western Europe and elsewhere have varying degrees of socialism often including medical care and retirement.

Our Authoritarian Free Enterprise system gives you the right to purchase auto, health, life and disability insurance, to fail or succeed, and has conflated capitalism with "patriotism, liberty, and freedom," although it is often the freedom to have your lives controlled by the Fed, Wall Street, the Permanent Government, and Big Pharma, Big OIl, and the MIC. We also pay high taxes to various entities-federal, state, local with additional fees (taxes) imposed on licenses and government services.

So---why shouldn't we consider socialism? The socialist reformers of the twenties were dealt with quite harshly by corporate agents in the government. People forgot, and then came the wars of the last 60 years. This early experience left a legacy of fear. (BTW--Obama is not even close to being a socialist. He's another social mercantilist like all presidents since Lincoln).

So---why not abandon our imperial pretensions, pull back our troops, and start taking care of the American people?

[Homer]

This question has been asked and examined before. (Readers digest condensed version--for the full one it'll cost you $$)

[BGuttman]

Whew!  What a crazy site you found, Homer!

Evan, I think the problem with Socialism is that we have people who have convinced themselves that it is a way to separate them from their chosen lifestyle and will not consider it.  Better we should be a Banana Republic.

[ddickerson]

Reason?

It fails.

[Homer]

sorry but I wanted everyone to have a free copy.

I have my anotated copy but its not free.  It acutally helps quite a bit put things in perspective. 
Obviously I have a very high opinion of the book, by von Mises also has much to say about socialism as well.

[sly fox]

what an endorsement

some people have a high opinion of Mein Kampf, and it is also free on the web. 

http://www.hitler.org/writings/Mein_Kampf/

Let's all follow it as well.

get real.

Someone is trolling

  troll, troll, troll your boat, gently down the stream 

[Andrew Meronek]

This question has been asked and examined before. (Readers digest condensed version--for the full one it'll cost you $$)

That does not seem to be Hayek's publican, but rather a bunch of synopses about it.  It is furthermore heavily biased (by Hayek and possibly the synopsisers) around the problems of the risen fascism at the time, and conflates many problems to socialism which develops into fascism whereas we see nowadays that many of those ideas were wrong.  He even admits that a small degree of "socialism" might be okay in order to prevent people from starving to death in "The Constitution Of Liberty," although he was always an extremely strong proponent of free will in the marketplace.

I think that socialism vs. capitalism is largely a social tradeoff.  Socialism creates more stability for the general citizen at the expense of having less overall economic output in the country, because any centralized controls are always less efficient than localized controls which are more prevalent in capitalism as long as monopolies are avoided.  Thus, it reflects a perception that resources are less needed for defence from other countries, in which a higher economic output is needed to produce more defences.  Remember that while GDP counts between socialist systems and more capitalist systems compare well, GDP counts welfare systems which do not increase the real products produced in a country.

[Homer]

Sly went Godwin in 6--a new record!

[Baron von Bone]

Reason?
 
It fails.

Only when you need it to though, of course.
 
The standard illusory religious Get Out Of Ideological Failures Free card.
 
This is the crux of the problem with those who hold ideology over reality, and it's the primary function and product of religious faith (in all forms). Doesn't make sense? No problem, you can still presume the same thing, because reason fails.

[ddickerson]

History has proven over and over again, socialism fails.

Hey, I'm glad that you guys are now finally coming out of the closet and admitting that you want socialism, because you guys have been denying this since I joined this forum.

So, honesty is a good thing.

[Homer]

Only when you need it to though, of course.
 
The standard illusory religious Get Out Of Ideological Failures Free card.
 
This is the crux of the problem with those who hold ideology over reality, and it's the primary function and product of religious faith (in all forms). Doesn't make sense? No problem, you can still presume the same thing, because reason fails.

Which pretty much sums up the interest in socialism.  Despite repeated instances of it leading to various ills, including the eroding of rights and reduced economic production--we still should just give it a try.

This time, we'll get it right.

[ddickerson]

No, Hillary once said (paraphrasing)"The reason it will work this time is because I will be in charge", or something to that affect.

What a bunch a narcissistic dufases.

[Baron von Bone]

History has proven over and over again, socialism fails.

Got it ... rather than stating your subject (socialism) you only stated that reason fails.
 
Now that you've indicated socialism was the unstated subject of that sentence the context is completely changed.
 
It was "Reason, it fails" as stated, but now it would appear you meant "The reason I'm against socialism is that it fails."
 
The comment, as written, is the indication I pointed out (and that my sig does as well). I have no response to the comment under the context of the revealed subject.

[ddickerson]

Got it ... rather than stating your subject (socialism) you only stated that reason fails.
 
Now that you've indicated socialism was the unstated subject of that sentence the context is completely changed.
 
It was "Reason, it fails" as stated, but now it would appear you meant "The reason I'm against socialism is that it fails."
 
The comment, as written, is the indication I pointed out (and that my sig does as well). I have no response to the comment under the context of the revealed subject.

Thanks

[Trav1s]

Forgive me but I am going to play the "Christian" card in this conversation...

The irony to me is the the Conservative Right who claim to be True Believers^TM blatantly ignores the social implications of Jesus' message in the Synoptic Gospels.  Sure they may claim to reach out and help people elsewhere in the world but there is always a string attached.  The agenda is "save" those they are reaching out to.  What about those same implications here within the borders of our own country?  Their help is accepted but their message/agenda is rejected so help is withheld.  Helping for the sake of helping is labeled as socialism or communism and dismissed without honest theological consideration.  This is the same grip that I have heard foreign visitors repeated bring towards the American Christian movement. 

I believe this understanding/approach is grounded in the America myth/mentality/mindset which "states you get what you deserve" and we are all "self made men."  After spending 7 years of my life collecting all kinds of debts I have a problem with this idea.  Sure there where those chronic "repeat offenders" but for many people they get what they DON'T deserve and yet for the sake of individual gain we ignore them.  Got a problem with people living off the system then change the system so they cannot do it.  When will we as Americans take responsibility for the problems that our "system" has and stop thinking it is perfect like America is perfect? 

I too spent some time in Iceland and most of it was in Reykjavik.  I am amazed how clean, quiet and pleasant the city was.  For a city of that size I heard 2 police cars with sirens blazing on their way to an accident.  Sure they have their own bag of problems but I gotta wonder if they up north are onto something.  I sure did not observe the erosion of rights and economic production. 

In short, I don't see any system as working.  Let's be honest here... As long as there are people there will be "haves" and "have nots."  The last thing "haves" (including myself) want to do is give up my cash/security/wealth/stuff to care for others. But honesty is a real problem with Americans who live in a constant state of denial.  Denial of our problems and solutions.  Ignore it and it will go away...  or blame someone else for the problem.  American ignorance at its best. 

All of this being said, I can see why many Americans have a problem with Christianity (in the American context)...

[ddickerson]

Forgive me but I am going to play the "Christian" card in this conversation...

. . . . .

All of this being said, I can see why many Americans have a problem with Christianity (in the American context)...

So, we would have a socialist utopian society if it wasn't for the 'american christians', of course, of which, you're above and 'get it'.

I think I understand where you're coming from....

[clydetheglide]

Stop all trombone competitions and auditions; no one is better than anyone else.

[Baron von Bone]

Stop all trombone competitions and auditions; no one is better than anyone else.

 
 
Part of the standard far right wing straw man version of socialism--a commonly chosen fantasy.
 
This is a good example of the mentality I was talking about when I though DD had posted "reason, it fails" as an argument rather than as a response to the reason he doesn't approve of socialism.

[Manexbi]

I have been a couple of times up there in the states and I'm haven't understood what do you call socialism still...
I have also been for some time in all those countrys and even they have some diferences to what we have here at home they are much closer than the States...
I'm pretty sure that in Europe we don't call socialism to "free" education, "free" health service... we do pay them with taxes and yes, we also have poor and rich people down here but from my point of view is better to have your (and your familly,friends,neighbours and all those in your contry) heathcare garanteed for your hole life than have lower taxes...
As I understand yours (all those in the states...) have another kind of organization (not saying that is worse, better or nothing...) for all those things but be sure that even the most right hand party here in europe wouldn't suggest ot quit those public services... all those thing are out of socialism and capitalism, all the countrys here mentioned are as capitalist as yours... we pay in euros, are not dollars, but we pay!

[Trav1s]

So, we would have a socialist utopian society if it wasn't for the 'american christians', of course, of which, you're above and 'get it'.

I think I understand where you're coming from....

If you want to project your perspective/bias into what I am says feel free.

If you would kindly go back and re-read the entire statement you would see that I struggle with the challenge to care for others.  I struggle to make socially responsible choices.  But at least I am aware and trying to do it.  I am just as guilty as the next guy but I am willing to admit it where most others are not.  Blaming it on the most recent incarnation of "The Man" is not going to solve our problems. 

Please don't turn this into an us v/s them conversation.  Why do you always feel the need to polarize and divide?