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The Trombone ForumHorns, Gear, and EquipmentInstruments(Moderators: greg waits, tbone62) What do you know about a King "Special?"
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BackBone

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« on: Sep 21, 2012, 02:42PM »

Anyone?? I just came across one. Looks to be from the 1920's due to the serial number: 4x-xxx. Lacquer is in good condition, inners are excellent, outers have some pitting and patina, bell has a couple of dings and a little lacquer loss near rim due to tarnish. Tuning slide (in bell) small end has a wrinkle in the non lacqured inner which cause me to have to wiggle it to get it off but I can take it off and put it back on. I will post pics when I can.

It also has the original H.N White A23 mouthpiece and case. Can't find anything on the web including hornicopia and the H.N. White website that specifically references a "Special." Don't know

Anyone got any ideas??  Confused Confused
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Exzaclee

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« Reply #1 on: Sep 22, 2012, 12:58AM »

Where does it say "Special" - and it does say "King" on the bell, right?  I ask because Olds made a "special" and i want to rule out the obvious, that you have an Olds with a King mouthpiece or counterweight or case or something...

If it says "The King" on the slide, you have an older HN White horn before the company was called "King."  Judging by the serial you gave it's very likely built before 1920... I'm thinking 1915 or earlier...
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BackBone

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« Reply #2 on: Sep 22, 2012, 08:50PM »

Thanks for the reply. I will post pics soon.

Yes it says "King" on the bell. Says:

"SPECIAL" Above the engraving
then within the engraving:

"KING
MADE BY
THE HN WHITE CO
CLEVELAND
OHIO"
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Exzaclee

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« Reply #3 on: Sep 23, 2012, 12:46PM »

I've never seen one of those...

Here's my guess...

That could be something they made before the New Proportion - the engraving is similar (but different)  to the engraving i've seen on some proportions and later on early 2Bs.   I'm wanting to guess that's a 30's horn.  The straight brace is throwing me off, though. 

May be a custom order for someone?  A prototype perhaps?  can you check the braces for similarities with 2Bs and New Proportions- and measure the bell as well?
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BackBone

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« Reply #4 on: Sep 23, 2012, 03:24PM »

From hornucopia:

http://www.horn-u-copia.net/show.php?selby=+where+instrument%3D%22Trombone%22+and+maker%3D%22King%22

ID numbers on hornucopia: 8731; 7348; 4518; 474 - these all seem to have similar straight braces.

Mine has about a 7 1/4" bell

On the HNWhite website:
http://www.hnwhite.com/serial%20model%20trombone.htm#Improved

there are some straight braced horns but none are called a "SPECIAL"

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Exzaclee

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« Reply #5 on: Sep 23, 2012, 04:09PM »

I know about the straight braced horns - the early horns (like "the King") and the student models - 605s, 606s, superiors and the like.  I'm not sure exactly when HN White started using the curved braces, but what i can gather from a not so educated guess through my own limited observation is that it was an aesthetic decision he stuck with for the most part up until the student horns were being made.  Given what we know about how brace placement can effect response, i wouldn't doubt if it was a practical decision as well.  Who knows...

#8731 - appears to be an old "The King" - or something similar - maybe an old Utility?

#7348 - that's an early friction fit "The King" -pretty sure that that's not what you have. 

#4518 - that's another "The King" - in great condition by the looks of it - again, not your horn

#474 - closer to what you have but it appears to me that the braces are in a different place - and I would expect them to include "Special" in a description of the engraving.  Hard to tell, but the bell seems smaller as well.

Anyway, given that your horn seems to have some superficial resemblance to the New Proportion (the "pre-2B" if you will) in many ways - I'm guessing this was a transition horn, or something done custom for a special buyer. 

Notice how on most of the early horns the handslide has the double (one straight and one curved) grip.  Your slide isn't like that, it's more like the more modern design used on the New Proportion and the 2B.  I would not be surprised if the cork barrels are the same or very similar. 

Also, on the bell braces, I cannot make out similar details on the older horns... but that could also be the bad resolution of the pics.  I've been through those sites you mentioned numerous times and I've never seen anything like what you have.  I think you may have a very rare horn.  That doesn't mean it's worth a lot, but it sure is cool.  Where did you find it?  It appears to be in pretty good shape - how's the slide?  Any chance you could get some calipers and measure the bore size of both slide tubes?  You do this by measuring the bottom of the inner slide tubes. 
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dj kennedy

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« Reply #6 on: Sep 25, 2012, 09:18PM »

maybe  a  custom order  ?????????????????????????
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Harold Hill

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« Reply #7 on: Sep 26, 2012, 05:20AM »

The styling is very similar to the KING Gardell Simons "Cello-Tone" trombone.
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« Reply #8 on: Sep 26, 2012, 08:04PM »

Exzaclee, DJ... yeah.. it may be a custom order. Maybe that is why it has the "SPECIAL" as an engraving. By the way.. the slide is in great shape. No plating loss. Slide is free moving and fast with a little trombotine and plenty of water. Could use a real cleaning though as I encountered old slide oil that is very stubborn. As soon as I get my hands on some calipers I will measure the slide tubes.

The styling is very similar to the KING Gardell Simons "Cello-Tone" trombone.

I was thinking the same thing but I assume that there would be some sort of engraving to denote it as such. I emailed the H.N. White Co. website for more info. Haven't heard anything  back yet. This mystery will be solved some how!

Keep it coming if you have any ideas...
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dj kennedy

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« Reply #9 on: Sep 26, 2012, 10:10PM »

i have  one similar   
made for a  music  store by king --has straight brace
laq  looks same    yummy  color  !!!!!!!!!
========
cello tone   --always wanted one  !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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BackBone

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« Reply #10 on: Sep 27, 2012, 07:51AM »


laq  looks same    yummy  color  !!!!!!!!!
========


yeah... like hot liquid caramel bubbling in the pot!
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BackBone

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« Reply #11 on: Sep 27, 2012, 02:25PM »

i have  one similar   
made for a  music  store by king --has straight brace

========

DJ.... does yours have the "SPECIAL" engraved on it as well???
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« Reply #12 on: Oct 16, 2012, 12:48PM »

My horn is now on hornucopia (ID:9533):

http://www.horn-u-copia.net/display.php?starton=0&secondsel=+and+instrument%3D%22Trombone%22&selby=+where+maker%3D%22King+%22
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« Reply #13 on: Dec 10, 2012, 01:02PM »

Any chance you could get some calipers and measure the bore size of both slide tubes?  You do this by measuring the bottom of the inner slide tubes. 

Got the bore measured by John Sandhagen and its a .475" bore. John thinks around 1910-ish on the year. Definitely in good shape for the age. Both John and I have played this horn. Plays much more open than its size. Cuts through. Good solo horn. Nice slide. Original lacquer. May be the original case and mouthpiece.

ADDED: Forgot to mention it does have a leadpipe.
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