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Creation and Performance => Musical Miscellany => Topic started by: Triggz on Jul 22, 2017, 07:41PM



Title: Please transpose this for me
Post by: Triggz on Jul 22, 2017, 07:41PM
I've got some Bb trumpet music that I want transposed into trombone so that I can play it. I've been trying to do it myself but I'm getting it wrong. The key for Trombone should be Bb Major and the trumpet music is in C major. Here are the notes for Bb trumpet:

G E D

E F E D C

E E F G F E

D G G G

C C C D

E D E F G F E

D D D F E D

C C C

C

Sorry I can't do it myself. If somebody could please do it for me and tell me how you did it step-by-step, that would be very much appreciated. Thank you!


Title: Re: Please transpose this for me
Post by: Matt K on Jul 22, 2017, 07:48PM
Lower each note by one whole step(two half steps, or basically two keys on a piano). Written C becomes sounding Bb.

F D C

D Eb D C Bb

D D Eb F D

C F F F

Bb Bb Bb C

D C D Eb F Eb D

c C C Eb D C

Bb Bb Bb

Bb


Title: Re: Please transpose this for me
Post by: Arranger-Transcriber on Jul 22, 2017, 09:40PM
Matt gives an accurate transposition.  If his solution doesn't sound right, that's probably the result of your not having observed any sharps or flats, either those that appear in the key signature or "accidentals" in front of particular notes.


Title: Re: Please transpose this for me
Post by: SilverBone on Jul 22, 2017, 09:49PM
Matt gave you the most straightforward way to do it, but you can use an intermediate step that might make what's going on clearer to you.

Start by taking the trumpet original and instead of writing notes, write the note position in a C Major scale.

Then the first two lines become:

5 3 2
3 4 3 2 1

Then use those numbers to pick the right note out of Bb scale instead of a C scale.  So the first two lines become:

F D C
D Eb D C Bb

Same result as Matt, but it gives you a visualization aid.


Title: Re: Please transpose this for me
Post by: Whosaidwhatnow? on Jul 23, 2017, 06:39AM
Add 2 flats to the key signature and read it as if its tenor clef.


Title: Re: Please transpose this for me
Post by: robcat2075 on Jul 23, 2017, 08:17AM
Transposition seemed very mysterious to me until I started playing piano and could visualize the interval on the keyboard.

Once you can see it on the keyboard the only complication left is to choose the correct enharmonic spelling for black key notes, for example, Bb vs. A#


Title: Re: Please transpose this for me
Post by: Stewbones43 on Jul 23, 2017, 08:26AM
If my students were having problems with transposition, I used to get them to make a simple slide rule tool to help.
One strip of card 24 inches long and one strip 12 inches long.

Mark each strip into 1 inch sections just like on a ruler and then, starting from the left hand end, write the notes of the chromatic scale, one note in each section:- A/A#Bb/B/C/C#Db/D/D#Eb/E/F/F#Gb/G/G#Ab/A/A#Bb/B/C/C#Db/D/D#Eb/E/F/F#Gb/G/G#Ab/ on the 24 inch strip and A/A#Bb/B/C/C#Db/D/D#Eb/E/F/F#Gb/G/G#Ab/ on the 12 inch strip.

Then line up the key of one instrument with the key of the other (Bb and C) and you will be able to read off all the notes you want, including accidentals. If you want to go more complex you can put in other enharmonic notes such as Cb and B# or even go to things like Abb and Gx.

Note! make sure the strips don't slip out of alignment-put them under a clear plastic sheet.

Good luck

Stewbones


Title: Re: Please transpose this for me
Post by: Triggz on Jul 23, 2017, 11:17AM
Thank you!!! I'm going to try transposing with a few more trumpet solos I like and see how it goes. I've got a friend who can fluently read treble clef and tell me what the trumpet's notes are. Then I can transpose it and become quicker at doing so. Thanks for the help and we'll see how it goes


Title: Re: Please transpose this for me
Post by: Le.Tromboniste on Jul 23, 2017, 03:17PM
You should learn tenor clef - it's the easy way to sight-transpose Bb treble clef parts and a pretty essential skill to master as a trombone player anyway


Title: Re: Please transpose this for me
Post by: BGuttman on Jul 23, 2017, 03:30PM
Thank you!!! I'm going to try transposing with a few more trumpet solos I like and see how it goes. I've got a friend who can fluently read treble clef and tell me what the trumpet's notes are. Then I can transpose it and become quicker at doing so. Thanks for the help and we'll see how it goes

I would suggest you learn to read treble clef (or at the very least recognize all the notes) so you can do this all by yourself.

You may note that we can't show high notes with our note "icons" and use treble clef equivalents instead.  There is something called the "Great Staff" where the bass clef sits at the bottom, C one line above the bass staff is also one line below the treble staff above it.  So high Bb, 4 lines above the bass staff shows up as  :trebleclef: :line3:


Title: Re: Please transpose this for me
Post by: Graham Martin on Jul 23, 2017, 04:24PM
I can transpose very quickly in my head for Bb and Eb transpositions but others, when changing the key etc., are a little more difficult and I made up this transposition chart to help me. The chart is on the basis of a scale reading from the bottom upwards. The 7, 9, 11, 13 on the top lines were to help me transposing chords for arrangements more easily. Hope it helps until you can do it in your head.

I can read from treble clef in concert pitch but not a Bb part and I do not think that, considering the times you would have to do it in normal circumstances, it would be worthwhile doing. But not problem if you have a better memory than mine. :rolleyes:

TRANSPOSITION CHART
(& Vertical Chord Intervals)

1  C  C# Db D  D# Eb E  E# F  F# Gb G  G# Ab A  A# Bb B  B#
13 A  A# Bb B  B# C  C# Db D  D# Eb E  E# F  F# Gb G  G# Ab
11 F  F# Gb G  G# Ab A  A# Bb B  B# C  C# Db D  D# Eb E  E#
9  D  D# Eb E  E# F  F# Gb G  G# Ab A  A# Bb B  B# C  C# Db
7  B  B# C  C# Db D  D# Eb E  E# F  F# Gb G  G# Ab A  A# Bb
6  A  A# Bb B  B# C  C# Db D  D# Eb E  E# F  F# Gb G  G# Ab
5  G  G# Ab A  A# Bb B  B# C  C# Db D  D# Eb E  E# F  F# Gb
4  F  F# Gb G  G# Ab A  A# Bb B  B# C  C# Db D  D# Eb E  E#
3  E  E# F  F# Gb G  G# Ab A  A# Bb B  B# C  C# Db D  D# Eb
2  D  D# Eb E  E# F  F# Gb G  G# Ab A  A# Bb B  B# C  C# Db
1  C  C# Db D  D# Eb E  E# F  F# Gb G  G# Ab A  A# Bb B  B#

Best to cut and paste this chart (say in MS Word) and respace it better than one is able to do with the limited resources of the forums posting box.



Title: Re: Please transpose this for me
Post by: EdGrissom on Jul 24, 2017, 04:21AM
I can transpose very quickly in my head for Bb and Eb transpositions but others, when changing the key etc., are a little more difficult and I made up this transposition chart to help me. The chart is on the basis of a scale reading from the bottom upwards. The 7, 9, 11, 13 on the top lines were to help me transposing chords for arrangements more easily. Hope it helps until you can do it in your head.

I can read from treble clef in concert pitch but not a Bb part and I do not think that, considering the times you would have to do it in normal circumstances, it would be worthwhile doing. But not problem if you have a better memory than mine. :rolleyes:

TRANSPOSITION CHART
(& Vertical Chord Intervals)

1  C  C# Db D  D# Eb E  E# F  F# Gb G  G# Ab A  A# Bb B  B#
13 A  A# Bb B  B# C  C# Db D  D# Eb E  E# F  F# Gb G  G# Ab
11 F  F# Gb G  G# Ab A  A# Bb B  B# C  C# Db D  D# Eb E  E#
9  D  D# Eb E  E# F  F# Gb G  G# Ab A  A# Bb B  B# C  C# Db
7  B  B# C  C# Db D  D# Eb E  E# F  F# Gb G  G# Ab A  A# Bb
6  A  A# Bb B  B# C  C# Db D  D# Eb E  E# F  F# Gb G  G# Ab
5  G  G# Ab A  A# Bb B  B# C  C# Db D  D# Eb E  E# F  F# Gb
4  F  F# Gb G  G# Ab A  A# Bb B  B# C  C# Db D  D# Eb E  E#
3  E  E# F  F# Gb G  G# Ab A  A# Bb B  B# C  C# Db D  D# Eb
2  D  D# Eb E  E# F  F# Gb G  G# Ab A  A# Bb B  B# C  C# Db
1  C  C# Db D  D# Eb E  E# F  F# Gb G  G# Ab A  A# Bb B  B#

Best to cut and paste this chart (say in MS Word) and respace it better than one is able to do with the limited resources of the forums posting box.



This looks like a Magic Decoder Ring that I had as a kid. 


Title: Re: Please transpose this for me
Post by: Matt K on Jul 24, 2017, 04:46AM
I can transpose very quickly in my head for Bb and Eb transpositions but others, when changing the key etc., are a little more difficult and I made up this transposition chart to help me. The chart is on the basis of a scale reading from the bottom upwards. The 7, 9, 11, 13 on the top lines were to help me transposing chords for arrangements more easily. Hope it helps until you can do it in your head.

I can read from treble clef in concert pitch but not a Bb part and I do not think that, considering the times you would have to do it in normal circumstances, it would be worthwhile doing. But not problem if you have a better memory than mine. :rolleyes:

TRANSPOSITION CHART
(& Vertical Chord Intervals)

1  C  C# Db D  D# Eb E  E# F  F# Gb G  G# Ab A  A# Bb B  B#
13 A  A# Bb B  B# C  C# Db D  D# Eb E  E# F  F# Gb G  G# Ab
11 F  F# Gb G  G# Ab A  A# Bb B  B# C  C# Db D  D# Eb E  E#
9  D  D# Eb E  E# F  F# Gb G  G# Ab A  A# Bb B  B# C  C# Db
7  B  B# C  C# Db D  D# Eb E  E# F  F# Gb G  G# Ab A  A# Bb
6  A  A# Bb B  B# C  C# Db D  D# Eb E  E# F  F# Gb G  G# Ab
5  G  G# Ab A  A# Bb B  B# C  C# Db D  D# Eb E  E# F  F# Gb
4  F  F# Gb G  G# Ab A  A# Bb B  B# C  C# Db D  D# Eb E  E#
3  E  E# F  F# Gb G  G# Ab A  A# Bb B  B# C  C# Db D  D# Eb
2  D  D# Eb E  E# F  F# Gb G  G# Ab A  A# Bb B  B# C  C# Db
1  C  C# Db D  D# Eb E  E# F  F# Gb G  G# Ab A  A# Bb B  B#

Best to cut and paste this chart (say in MS Word) and respace it better than one is able to do with the limited resources of the forums posting box.



This is a useful tool; I just made an Excel file with it for people's convenience:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B21VppW4hdQeeFhGb1hnQjgxTUk/view?usp=sharing


Title: Re: Please transpose this for me
Post by: BillO on Jul 24, 2017, 08:54AM
I can transpose very quickly in my head for Bb and Eb transpositions but others, when changing the key etc., are a little more difficult and I made up this transposition chart to help me. The chart is on the basis of a scale reading from the bottom upwards. The 7, 9, 11, 13 on the top lines were to help me transposing chords for arrangements more easily. Hope it helps until you can do it in your head.

I can read from treble clef in concert pitch but not a Bb part and I do not think that, considering the times you would have to do it in normal circumstances, it would be worthwhile doing. But not problem if you have a better memory than mine. :rolleyes:

TRANSPOSITION CHART
(& Vertical Chord Intervals)

1  C  C# Db D  D# Eb E  E# F  F# Gb G  G# Ab A  A# Bb B  B#
13 A  A# Bb B  B# C  C# Db D  D# Eb E  E# F  F# Gb G  G# Ab
11 F  F# Gb G  G# Ab A  A# Bb B  B# C  C# Db D  D# Eb E  E#
9  D  D# Eb E  E# F  F# Gb G  G# Ab A  A# Bb B  B# C  C# Db
7  B  B# C  C# Db D  D# Eb E  E# F  F# Gb G  G# Ab A  A# Bb
6  A  A# Bb B  B# C  C# Db D  D# Eb E  E# F  F# Gb G  G# Ab
5  G  G# Ab A  A# Bb B  B# C  C# Db D  D# Eb E  E# F  F# Gb
4  F  F# Gb G  G# Ab A  A# Bb B  B# C  C# Db D  D# Eb E  E#
3  E  E# F  F# Gb G  G# Ab A  A# Bb B  B# C  C# Db D  D# Eb
2  D  D# Eb E  E# F  F# Gb G  G# Ab A  A# Bb B  B# C  C# Db
1  C  C# Db D  D# Eb E  E# F  F# Gb G  G# Ab A  A# Bb B  B#

Best to cut and paste this chart (say in MS Word) and respace it better than one is able to do with the limited resources of the forums posting box.


How does one use this?


Title: Re: Please transpose this for me
Post by: davdud101 on Jul 25, 2017, 05:10PM
You should learn tenor clef - it's the easy way to sight-transpose Bb treble clef parts and a pretty essential skill to master as a trombone player anyway

Couldn't +1 this more


Title: Re: Please transpose this for me
Post by: Graham Martin on Jul 25, 2017, 06:36PM
How does one use this?

Read along the bottom line from the key you are in to the key you want to be in. Them compare upwards between the two columns for the scale (1 to 7) and common chord notes (1,3,5,7,9,11,13).

Use Matt's version for ease of reading. It is amazing how similar this is to my original, even down to the every other line shading. Except mine is in green. :D


Title: Re: Please transpose this for me
Post by: BillO on Jul 25, 2017, 09:14PM
Thanks Grah.

One more question...

Are the anharmonics (as we move right) minor keys?  Some seem like they might be, some don't.


Title: Re: Please transpose this for me
Post by: Graham Martin on Jul 25, 2017, 11:29PM
Thanks Grah.

One more question...

Are the anharmonics (as we move right) minor keys?  Some seem like they might be, some don't.

No. Moving right is just up a semitone each time but with the vertical column repeated for common sharp and flat keys:- C# = Db, D# = Eb, F# - Gb, G# = Ab, A# = Bb. Vertical scales are only major.


Title: Re: Please transpose this for me
Post by: BillO on Jul 26, 2017, 07:27AM
No. Moving right is just up a semitone each time but with the vertical column repeated for common sharp and flat keys:- C# = Db, D# = Eb, F# - Gb, G# = Ab, A# = Bb. Vertical scales are only major.
Ahhh, I see.

Okay, then there are a few errors in it (same errors in Matt's version).  Look at the A to A# columns.  Third row up has C# Db (same note).  Same problem with rows labeled 6, 7 and 13.  these errors exist throughout, but it's not hard to fix.  So each successive column should be 1 semitone higher as we move right unless the the columns are enharmonic.  It looks like the enhamonic shifts got out of sync.  The first place this seems to happen is (counting from left to right and bottom to top)  column 4 to 5 (D-D#) at rows 3 (F#-Gb) and 7 (C# - Db).


Title: Re: Please transpose this for me
Post by: Graham Martin on Jul 26, 2017, 03:48PM
Ahhh, I see.

Okay, then there are a few errors in it (same errors in Matt's version).  Look at the A to A# columns.  Third row up has C# Db (same note).  Same problem with rows labeled 6, 7 and 13.  these errors exist throughout, but it's not hard to fix.  So each successive column should be 1 semitone higher as we move right unless the the columns are enharmonic.  It looks like the enhamonic shifts got out of sync.  The first place this seems to happen is (counting from left to right and bottom to top)  column 4 to 5 (D-D#) at rows 3 (F#-Gb) and 7 (C# - Db).

Sorry about that. It was just something I used years ago when I was first getting into arranging. I had not thought to check it for errors in recent times.


Title: Re: Please transpose this for me
Post by: Matt K on Jul 26, 2017, 03:54PM
Sorry about that. It was just something I used years ago when I was first getting into arranging. I had not thought to check it for errors in recent times.

Mine was just a copy paste but I used to have an identical matrix so I didn't think to check either! I'll fix it soon