The Trombone Forum

Town Hall => Comments and Suggestions => Topic started by: JimArcher on Aug 04, 2017, 08:20AM



Title: Donations
Post by: JimArcher on Aug 04, 2017, 08:20AM
Tried to use the latest donation site, couldn't get it to work...


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: BGuttman on Aug 04, 2017, 09:06AM
I have no idea what Richard has been doing.  The donation site goes right to him to help defray the costs of hosting the Site.  Maybe he doesn't need money now (but I really doubt that)?  Hosting TTF is a small part of his business.


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: Euphanasia on Aug 04, 2017, 09:41AM
I used it today. It stalled out the first time I tried, but the second time it worked fine and went straight to Paypal.


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: BillO on Sep 01, 2017, 03:20PM
I'm surprised he has not raised the $3500 yet.  If everyone that came on here in the last 2 days gave $25, he'd have more than enough.

Maybe folks are just so used to it being broken they don't even notice anymore.


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: robcat2075 on Sep 01, 2017, 03:39PM
I wish I could know there was some mechanism in place for a generally available person, in addition to Richard, to do the sort of fixes and upkeep about which the current mods always "we have to wait for Richard to fix that" during the stretches when Richard is not able to do those things.


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: BGuttman on Sep 01, 2017, 04:11PM
I wish I could know there was some mechanism in place for a generally available person, in addition to Richard, to do the sort of fixes and upkeep about which the current mods always "we have to wait for Richard to fix that" during the stretches when Richard is not able to do those things.

You and me both :)


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: Matt K on Sep 01, 2017, 06:47PM
And me 3 since Ive actually managed backends to similar projects professionally.  ;)


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: Todd Jonz on Sep 01, 2017, 09:01PM

There have been numerous offers over the years from numerous qualified individuals to either assist or assume full responsibility for keeping things running, but the proprietor prefers to provide a bare minimum of support to an eleven year old beta test version of a bug infested, highly vulnerable, occasionally hacked software platform.  What a swell guy!




Title: Re: Donations
Post by: Remo on Sep 07, 2017, 03:12PM
I'm surprised he has not raised the $3500 yet.  If everyone that came on here in the last 2 days gave $25, he'd have more than enough.

Maybe folks are just so used to it being broken they don't even notice anymore.

Uh, no.  Fool me once...  Lengthy rant about catching up for the years of donations first, poor support, poor management, and the number of trolls that don't get dealt with deleted.

But I will leave in that I understand health issues, all too well.  If you can't do it yourself but are asking for and accepting money for it's operation, then get some people involved who can handle it for you.


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: Geordie on Sep 08, 2017, 01:18AM
I donated and the process worked first time. Would be interested to know how much has been raised.


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: MTbassbone on Oct 22, 2017, 01:30PM
Has any of the mods asked Richard to be more transparent regarding this issue?


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: robcat2075 on Oct 22, 2017, 01:54PM
I was able to make a donation yesterday.


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: BGuttman on Oct 22, 2017, 02:35PM
Has any of the mods asked Richard to be more transparent regarding this issue?

Endlessly.


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: Euphanasia on Oct 22, 2017, 05:11PM
I know he's probably not reading this, but if you were to set it up as a GoFundMe, then people could actually track how their contributions move toward a goal.


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: MTbassbone on Oct 22, 2017, 07:25PM
I donated, but I am very skeptical about the use of this fund raising effort.  The lack of transparency and communication by the creator of the forum is a major concern.  I don't want this to fail, and that is why I ultimately coughed up some cash.  I don't understand why he is on one hand so vested into this site, but on the other so withdrawn.


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: Matt K on Oct 22, 2017, 07:36PM
That's something that has me scratching my head too. I have some professional experience working with backend/frontend technologies and have offered to help with some of the more technical aspects of managing the site but I haven't heard anything back!

The 'bot' that I made to manage the classifieds would be a lot more efficient if I could get it to run inside the server instead of from my own. One of the reason it's broken right now. Right now it basically acts as a human and clicks the button to remove posts if they are older than 60 days. (Although Chrome updated recently and broke it so I'm in the process of fixing it... grad school isn't helping at the moment but I think I finally found a workaround and have to code it maybe sometime this week.)


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: blast on Oct 23, 2017, 12:54AM
Richard only mails one of the Admins..... and that seems to be a one way process.

The rest of us are as much in the dark as ordinary members.

We have no idea of what money has come in and what it is used for.

Chris Stearn


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: Todd Jonz on Oct 23, 2017, 06:41AM

Euphanasia writes:

> if you were to set it up as a GoFundMe, then people
> could actually track how their contributions move
> toward a goal.

But that would allow everyone to see how much money had been collected, information the proprietor has NEVER shared with anyone, not even the staff.  Only the proprietor knows the actual cost of operating this site, which some have suggested is far less than is collected in donations.  If this is, in fact, the case, it should be clear why the proprietor doesn't want to disclose donation totals.




Title: Re: Donations
Post by: MikeBMiller on Oct 23, 2017, 07:33AM
I kicked in $25 last night. Hope it helps, as I spend way too much time on this site.


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: ddickerson on Oct 23, 2017, 07:48AM
I see nothing wrong with the owner collecting more than what is required to keep this site up and running. I'm sure he needs income like the rest of us.

Heck, I would be in favor of all the moderators and volunteers receiving some cash too.


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: watermailonman on Oct 23, 2017, 09:03AM
I've said it before. The site needs a professional management. Moderators do a great job here but the owner is not very interested. If he has health problems and really OWNS the forum he should sell it. It could be partly commercial and partly voluntary. I mean it needs to be a comercial site with ads so maintenence is secured. It must be worth something?

I've said it before; One day the forum and all knowledge and efforts will be gone. It WILL crash and never go up again.
It is obvious there are no redundancy which is a great pity. A site like this should be hosted professionally. There are people who do this for a living. Mirrored databases and several webbserver-instances. There are webbhotels that could host this site for a fee. Not too expenive if it is built on open source technology which I guess is the case.It should not be up to one man with health problems. I vote for a commercial site. If it is not built on business it will die in a crash and if it gets too commercial it will not be as popular, because it is built on volontary contributions in the shape of free shared knowledge, and if the site goes too commercial the moderators probably want to be payed, because then it will just be like any job to them. A good balance is what the site needs where the mods decide. There could be certain sections where ads are alloud and other sections were ads are forbidden. The site only needs enough money to survive.

/Tom


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: MikeBMiller on Oct 23, 2017, 09:31AM
I think I have made this suggestion before, but how about charging a small fee for posting classified ads? $10 for each ad or $20 for unlimited for a year would cover the cost of the site. It looks like there are about 5-10 new ads every day.


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: watermailonman on Oct 23, 2017, 09:32AM
I think I have made this suggestion before, but how about charging a small fee for posting classified ads? $10 for each ad or $20 for unlimited for a year would cover the cost of the site. It looks like there are about 5-10 new ads every day.

Great idea!!!

/Tom


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: Dan Hine on Oct 23, 2017, 10:50AM
I think it's just like anything else.  People are willing to donate but not when they don't have confidence in what/who they are donating to.


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: elmsandr on Oct 23, 2017, 12:22PM
It is indeed fine if he makes money on this.  I'd be actually quite a bit more likely to contribute if he was upfront about that.  BUTit needs to be at least a little transparent to get any of my money right now. 

I did think it was *nice* that it was at 69% raised for a year.

Cheers,
Andy


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: afugate on Oct 23, 2017, 03:55PM
I kicked in $25 last night. Hope it helps, as I spend way too much time on this site.

I chipped in this evening.  I also find this site to be very valuable.

--Andy in OKC


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: greenbean on Oct 26, 2017, 08:12PM
I chipped in, too.  Because I like and care about the forum.  And the forum has been very good to me!  I have learned a ton and have sold a couple hundred horns here...

But I can honestly say that I would have donated perhaps 5x as much over the past 5 years as I have if the site were well run.  But it is not.


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: quiethorn on Oct 26, 2017, 11:12PM
I saw the announcement on the main page about the server crashing the other day and an all-nighter at the datacenter to get it back online. I was surprised to see this. I figured the site was being hosted somewhere or something.

The goal of this year is $3500. This is $291/month for a year. I don't know what kind of resources the site runs on now other than some old 143GB disks on a 16-year old(?) server, but Linode will do 24GB RAM, 8 cores, 384GB SSD storage, 16TB of traffic for $160/month. This is $1920 for a year. The pricing is straight forward and simple. No trips to the datacenter needed. Digital Ocean has similar plans. Add the cost of the forum software if there is any. Migrate the old site to legacy location on the new server or something for searching.

Maybe this has been recommended before and it's all falling on deaf ears...  :confused:

How much community effort would it take to just make a new site?


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: SilverBone on Oct 27, 2017, 12:41AM

How much community effort would it take to just make a new site?

There is a new site here:
http://www.trombonechat.com/index.php?sid=db7b281d89c265a7a7a75c91b07de997

Unfortunately, there is no way to migrate the content of this site, which is where the value of the site is.


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: elmsandr on Oct 27, 2017, 06:50AM
There is a new site here:
http://www.trombonechat.com/index.php?sid=db7b281d89c265a7a7a75c91b07de997

Unfortunately, there is no way to migrate the content of this site, which is where the value of the site is.
Well, that and the value of the commentariat.  That is, the network externalities of all of us coming here and chiming in.

Fun thing that has been discussed before, the historical content cannot (or at least should not) be migrated without the express consent of the owner.  So, moving to the other site is kinda tricky.  Not impossible, but tricky.

I would be quite happy to fund a significant portion of the entire venture, if it were open and transparent.  As it is, I do not contribute because I do not see that transparency.  I know he won't see this Richard, but we are all trying to tell you to take our money... but you have to step out from behind the curtain first.

Cheers,
Andy


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: MrPillow on Nov 22, 2017, 09:17AM
Any news? November has almost come and gone.


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: MrPillow on Dec 03, 2017, 04:38PM
Merry December?


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: bubbachet on Dec 05, 2017, 02:12PM

I would be quite happy to fund a significant portion of the entire venture, if it were open and transparent.  As it is, I do not contribute because I do not see that transparency.  I know he won't see this Richard, but we are all trying to tell you to take our money... but you have to step out from behind the curtain first.


He won't. That's why we founded Trombone Chat. There is a long story about how things got to where they are now, but the takeaway is this: Richard will not part with this site. He has had several opportunities and has refused them all.


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: elmsandr on Dec 06, 2017, 06:32AM
He won't. That's why we founded Trombone Chat. There is a long story about how things got to where they are now, but the takeaway is this: Richard will not part with this site. He has had several opportunities and has refused them all.
I know.  I like to keep re-iterating the point.

The offer still stands and people still change their minds sometimes.
Andy


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: jorymil on Dec 07, 2017, 09:36PM
Not a bleepin' chance.  As a professional Linux admin, I've offered my help before and have never received a response.  The phrase "143 GB SCSI" hard disk shouldn't have been uttered for about 8 years now.  Modern cloud hosting services are far better equipped to do the hosting piece of this, and there's no reason to purchase forum software, period.  Use something like Drupal or PHPBB.  Encrypt all traffic with TLS.

TromboneChat it is--Richard, you won't get a cent from me.

John


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: BillO on Jan 11, 2018, 06:29AM
Well, it really does look like the admin took our money and abandoned us again.

Nice.


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: Todd Jonz on Jan 11, 2018, 08:19AM

BillO writes:

> Well, it really does look like the admin
> took our money and abandoned us again.

This is hardly breaking news.  Based on past experience it appears that the proprietor looks upon this site as his personal piggy bank, which can be tapped whenever he's hard up for cash -- or at least there's solid evidence that has, in fact, been the case in the past.  There's also good reason to believe he has collected far more than the actual cost of operating the site.

Note that this is the second round of fundraising that has promised a software upgrade to the vulnerability riddled eleven-year-old beta test software on which the Forum has always run (it has *never* been upgraded.)  My advice:  don't hold your breath.  It's a mystery to me why folks continue to patronize the place, when there's an alternative at "TromboneChat.com" with endless possibilities for new features and adequate support.




Title: Re: Donations
Post by: Posaunus on Jan 11, 2018, 10:28AM
It's a mystery to me why folks continue to patronize the place, when there's an alternative at "TromboneChat.com" with endless possibilities for new features and adequate support.

As far as I can tell, TromboneChat.com is only a virtual alternative to the Trombone Forum.  Nice as it may be, no one uses it.  The last post appears to have been Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:48 am. 

Using TromboneChat may be a bit like vox clamantis in deserto


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: watermailonman on Jan 11, 2018, 11:11AM
When this site dies trombonechat will be the immediate site to visit. Unfortunately the old threads here will then be lost, and to be frank this site was a lot more interesting when more pros were active. The few who still write here write more sparse, and new pros don't seem very interested in sharing. I miss Mike Suter and other characters like him.

The information could be saved if someone writes a "crawler" to collect and put everything in a new database before this database is lost  :good:

I think the owners ads to collect money scares people off. As a programmer I noticed he did a couple of errors when writing all that read text. One is the ad changed the startpage. Since he did that ad the latest "new" posts does not show up on the bottom as they used to. I don't think he meant to do that. I think it is very strange he has not corrected that error.

The owner may have contributed when building this site, but now the best thing he could do is to sell the site to someone.

/Tom


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: Dan Hine on Jan 11, 2018, 11:23AM
Could everyone interested in using Trombone Chat, by default, start each post here with an "ad" of sorts for that website?



Title: Re: Donations
Post by: BGuttman on Jan 11, 2018, 11:36AM
I'd be more wont to push it if they fix the bugs that have crept in.  For example, you can't post pictures (unless they fixed that recently -- Brian?).


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: Matt K on Jan 11, 2018, 11:43AM

It could be saved if someone writes a "crawler" to collect and put everything in a new database before this database is lost  :good:



Taken care of! My bot that handles the classifieds takes a backup every time it checks. I would caution against people using a true crawler for this site as they tend to be high overhead, checking the whole site every time it runs. I built this one to only fetch updates and it does so slowly to not burden this server.


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: BillO on Jan 11, 2018, 12:02PM
Taken care of! My bot that handles the classifieds takes a backup every time it checks. I would caution against people using a true crawler for this site as they tend to be high overhead, checking the whole site every time it runs. I built this one to only fetch updates and it does so slowly to not burden this server.
So, you have crawled the entire site Matt?


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: mwpfoot on Jan 11, 2018, 12:17PM
Could everyone interested in using Trombone Chat, by default, start each post here with an "ad" of sorts for that website?

use ur sig

 ;)


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: Dan Hine on Jan 11, 2018, 12:46PM
use ur sig

 ;)

I hardly ever read signatures...   :/


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: Matt K on Jan 11, 2018, 02:51PM
So, you have crawled the entire site Matt?

Everything but Chit-Chat and Purely Politics. There's a hugely disproportionate amount of content on those parts. Last I checked everything else was ca. 30 MB of text. With those I suspect it would be at least 3x - 4x that size. 

Fortunately, it seems that the site is under a Creative Commons license  (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-nd/3.0/us/) so if it does go down, I can probably post it somewhere so long as I give credit to the contributors and make no financial gain out of it.  But I'm hoping that that day will be later rather than sooner if for no other reason than I don't want to research it to avoid getting slapped with a suit  ;)

I also thought that the trombonechat would be more popular, though this site certainly has network effects.  Very cyclical. As long as people post here, more people will post here, etc. etc.

I'll have to check with Brian about the picture issue over there. I might be able to help fix it. That certainly is one of the detriments over here but it's technically a problem over there too at the moment. But fixing it over there would be easier than coming up with a custom bot over here and might help to get more traffic over there.


EDIT: Not sure what happened there.  Must have posted too soon. Fixed now.


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: BGuttman on Jan 11, 2018, 03:04PM
If we ever have to head for the lifeboat, I doubt anybody really cares about PP Religion, or Chit-Chat.  Or even the Classifieds for that matter.

If it comes to that, contact Brian Keegan (Sliphorn) since he owns Trombone Chat.


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: BillO on Jan 11, 2018, 03:09PM
Everything but Chit-Chat and Purely Politics.

Awesome!

You neednít worry about the content.  It also belongs to us.


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: Geezerhorn on Jan 11, 2018, 04:16PM
Does this (from the Terms of Use) mean anything towards the discussion of who owns the content of this Forum?

"Post editing and deleting
Posts may be edited by the poster for a period of up to four days after posting.  Please note that, since the content is never actually fixed in a medium, the poster therefore holds no copyright on the material.  Neither does The Trombone Forum need a license to use/host the content in the post.  All posts are therefore public domain content."

...Geezer


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: BGuttman on Jan 11, 2018, 05:39PM
Please note that the limit on editing is now 48 hours and not 96 as you said.

As to rehosting on Trombone Chat, the owner has tried to negotiate with Richard without success.  If this Forum goes belly-up we will have nothing but whatever Matt has managed to cache.


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: BillO on Jan 11, 2018, 05:55PM
There are a few problems with that clause Geezer.  First, the site is open internationally and the international laws concerning copyright will apply, not whatever is stated here.  2nd, once editing is disallowed the content is fixed in a medium - whatever it is stored on.  Finally, in the vast majority of countries in the world the creator of any Intelectual property has ultimate ownership of such IP unless they specifically release it to someone else.  This must additionally done for each identifiable item of IP (photograph, piece of music, painting, written ideas, designs, etc...).

Example, the things I write here are not outside my control unless I relinquish control individually to each post.  The laws in both Canada and the US make it clear that if I want my content removed, it must be.

I herewith grant permission for my contributed content to this site to be moved to trombonechat.com provided that such content, once moved, shall remain my property.  I also grant permission for said content to be made available for public viewing trough the trombonechat.com website.


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: harrison.t.reed on Jan 11, 2018, 06:02PM
This is amazing! I want all the nonsense I've written on here to be removed permanently.


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: BGuttman on Jan 11, 2018, 06:16PM
This is amazing! I want all the nonsense I've written on here to be removed permanently.

We don't usually do that.  Sorry.


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: Geezerhorn on Jan 11, 2018, 06:29PM
There are a few problems with that clause Geezer.  First, the site is open internationally and the international laws concerning copyright will apply, not whatever is stated here.  2nd, once editing is disallowed the content is fixed in a medium - whatever it is stored on.  Finally, in the vast majority of countries in the world the creator of any Intelectual property has ultimate ownership of such IP unless they specifically release it to someone else.  This must additionally done for each identifiable item of IP (photograph, piece of music, painting, written ideas, designs, etc...).

Example, the things I write here are not outside my control unless I relinquish control individually to each post.  The laws in both Canada and the US make it clear that if I want my content removed, it must be.

I herewith grant permission for my contributed content to this site to be moved to trombonechat.com provided that such content, once moved, shall remain my property.  I also grant permission for said content to be made available for public viewing trough the trombonechat.com website.

Me too!

Well, that's two down! 19,401 to go! It's a start...

...Geezer


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: harrison.t.reed on Jan 11, 2018, 06:55PM
We don't usually do that.  Sorry.

But he said. It says...

But. But


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: BillO on Jan 11, 2018, 07:13PM
We don't usually do that.  Sorry.

Ití s Harrisonís right.   If he really wantís it done, you legally have to do it.

Should not be that much effort.  I know phpbb and other forum systems.  They are all database backed and everyoneís posts should be easily selected and deleted.  This one is likely not too diffferent.


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: Matt K on Jan 11, 2018, 07:19PM
Should be.


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: harrison.t.reed on Jan 11, 2018, 07:34PM
Just more jokes. No need to delete all the secrets and gold nuggets I've deposited on this forum.


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: BGuttman on Jan 11, 2018, 08:13PM
We had a situation a year or two ago.  Frank Rossolino's widow was in the middle of a battle with a woman claiming to be Rossolino's daughter.  The widow wanted ALL posts from the "daughter" removed.  We did it.  Then her lawyer went to the Wayback Machine (where many Internet posts are cached) and found the posts we had removed and demanded we remove them.  We have no control over the Wayback Machine caches; she would have to take it up with them.

We also had a major pro who was posting pretty regularly on here suddenly remove all his posts by changing them to periods.  That was when we decided that there would be a limit to the amount of editing we would allow.  You want us to remove all posts?  Send a lawyer's letter to RLB.  He owns all the content.


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: BillO on Jan 11, 2018, 08:35PM
 Send a lawyer's letter to RLB.  He owns all the content.

I hate to be contrary, but he does not own the content.  He does not own the code.   He does not even own the operating system.  He only owns the hardware it is all running on.

He can delete everything if he wants, but there is nothing else he can legally do without express permission from the creators of the content.  Of course he can break the law and force us into the unenviable position of having to fight for our IP.  It all depends on who has the most money to buy lawyers.  If, of course, he is so inclined.

Needless to say, he cannot object to the content being copied.  Only we can.  Matt has copied it already and Iím fine with that.


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: Matt K on Jan 12, 2018, 07:17AM
Its one of those things that we probably won't know until it actually happens but fortunatley I do have a backup of any of the important stuff.  Pictures are going to be a little bit more interesting to be honest.  In the US at least, the owner of the picture is the one who took the picture (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monkey_selfie_copyright_dispute), which obviously doesn't get enforced super strictly or else all of your vacation photos you asked that stranger on the street would need to give you permission to share them with your friends  ;)

So I have a backup of the images that are posted publicly as well... though I didn't write a parser if they weren't embeded. In other words, if you used the image tags and my bot could "see" the picture, it would download it. If it was a link to dropbox/photobucket, etc. then it just kept the links to it.  I then put a placeholder in the text for the location on my file system. That way I wouldn't store a bunch of duplicate photos... or else I'd have a TB of "  :evil:  " alone!  I do have a copy of all of the uncopied images too so occasionally it checks to see if they're rehosted and if I get around to it I can use the API for the various other places they're stored but a lot of those pictures are from the classifieds so I don't think its super imperative to get those. Although it occurs to me as I type this related XKCD cartoon (https://xkcd.com/979/)...


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: Wilktone on Jan 12, 2018, 07:52AM
It might be time to simply lock all topics here and post stickies to invite people to go to the Trombone Chat forum. Let this site be its own archive. Honestly, there's nothing here that won't be duplicated over there once things are active.


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: Todd Jonz on Jan 12, 2018, 10:20AM

Wilktone writes:

> It might be time to simply lock all topics here and post
> stickies to invite people to go to the Trombone Chat
> forum. Let this site be its own archive.

This is the best suggestion yet, particularly because it addresses some significant obstacles.  It's wrong to assume that content scraped from this site can easily be imported into another site like TromboneChat.  For example, there's no easy way to automatically map:

  • users on TTF to users on TC (if I register on TC using someone else's TTF user ID I can take control of that user's past posts when they are imported into TC);
  • TTF users to TC users who use different IDs on the two sites;
  • forums and sub-forums from one site to the other (the essential nature of "boards" differs significantly between the two sites.)

These are just the readily identifiable problems; this list is is undoubtedly incomplete.  While I'm sure a protocol for resolving these issues could be put in place, its implementation would rely on a significant amount of compromise and human intervention.

> There's nothing here that won't be duplicated over
> there once things are active.

Exactly.  If the community were to migrate to TC there's no reason TTF couldn't continue to operate as an archive of past discussions.  Alternatively, I'm sure there are folks out there who would happily provide financial and/or technical support to a new archive site populated with content scraped from TTF.  Either way, there's no advantage in moving these archival discussion threads to TC.  I would further assert that importing just a month's worth of recent TTF posts into TC would be sufficient to facilitate ongoing discussions seamlessly -- *if* the proprietor were interested in doing so.

Finally, I consider the discussion of copyright issues here to be an abject waste of time.  IMHO many (most?) of the interpretations of copyright law expressed so far in this thread are just plain wrong.  The only ones who need be concerned about copyright issues are people proposing to host scraped TTF content on another site, and I'm sure those individuals would be wise enough to consult with an IP attorney before acting if they have genuine concerns.




Title: Re: Donations
Post by: Geezerhorn on Jan 12, 2018, 10:50AM
It might be time to simply lock all topics here and post stickies to invite people to go to the Trombone Chat forum. Let this site be its own archive. Honestly, there's nothing here that won't be duplicated over there once things are active.

 :good:

Tabula rasa, baby!

...Geezer


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: Todd Jonz on Jan 12, 2018, 11:45AM

Having already argued in favor if allowing TTF to evolve into a read-only archive of past discussions, I recognize that there are concerns about TTF's long-term survivability.  While there's a lot of valuable information buried in the TTF archives, there's also a lot of dreck.  Scraping picks up both.  I assert there's an easier way to preserve "worthwhile" TTF content, but it requires help from the community to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Examine the URL for any TTF thread and you will see a string in the format "topic,<ThreadID>" where "<ThreadID>" is a number that uniquely identifies the thread.  All of the posts in a thread can be retrieved in a single, unadorned HTML page containing only text by plugging the thread ID into this template:

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?action=printpage;topic=<ThreadID>

For example, plugging "30197", the thread ID for the long-running "Pet Peeves" thread, into this template returns eleven years of posts in a single page (http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?action=printpage;topic=30197).  Massaging pages like this programatically into something a bit more attractive and readable is trivial, as is building a site to host them.  In fact, if the proprietor of TromboneChat were interested it would be no big deal to incorporate a read-only "Best of TTF" archive separate from the rest of the discussion forum.  The only real challenge would be building a list of "worthwhile" TTF thread IDs.  Is the TTF community up to meeting this challenge?




Title: Re: Donations
Post by: BillO on Jan 12, 2018, 12:11PM
IMHO many (most?) of the interpretations of copyright law expressed so far in this thread are just plain wrong.  The only ones who need be concerned about copyright issues are people proposing to host scraped TTF content on another site...

I'm not sure where this came from, but it is wrong.  You only need to go here and read: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_the_United_States.

There is no need to guess and slam the expressions of others in doing so.

While I'm not a lawyer, I am a trained and certified paralegal (I found this to be a handy thing for negotiating contracts during my career).

Whenever you create something (like this post for instance) the very act of creation gives you ownership and copyright to the work.  It is the responsibility of each of us to know this and partake in how our works, however trivial, are handled.  Of course you can just sit back and abdicate if you wish like most of us do, but the laws are pretty clear on who owns what and how they can re-assign those rights.

All that said, I don't think there is a lot here that is worth holding onto.  All the most valuable stuff gets repeated frequently.  If this site were to run as an archive for a year or two, or the content were to be archived elsewhere, that would be more than sufficient.


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: Euphanasia on Jan 12, 2018, 01:23PM
Euphanasia takes no responsibility for any perception of irony in the following image:


(https://i.imgflip.com/22l5uw.jpg) (https://imgflip.com/i/22l5uw)via Imgflip Meme Generator (https://imgflip.com/memegenerator)


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: Matt K on Jan 12, 2018, 02:07PM
Having already argued in favor if allowing TTF to evolve into a read-only archive of past discussions, I recognize that there are concerns about TTF's long-term survivability.  While there's a lot of valuable information buried in the TTF archives, there's also a lot of dreck.  Scraping picks up both.  I assert there's an easier way to preserve "worthwhile" TTF content, but it requires help from the community to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Examine the URL for any TTF thread and you will see a string in the format "topic,<ThreadID>" where "<ThreadID>" is a number that uniquely identifies the thread.  All of the posts in a thread can be retrieved in a single, unadorned HTML page containing only text by plugging the thread ID into this template:

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?action=printpage;topic=<ThreadID>

For example, plugging "30197", the thread ID for the long-running "Pet Peeves" thread, into this template returns eleven years of posts in a single page (http://tromboneforum.org/index.php?action=printpage;topic=30197).  Massaging pages like this programatically into something a bit more attractive and readable is trivial, as is building a site to host them.  In fact, if the proprietor of TromboneChat were interested it would be no big deal to incorporate a read-only "Best of TTF" archive separate from the rest of the discussion forum.  The only real challenge would be building a list of "worthwhile" TTF thread IDs.  Is the TTF community up to meeting this challenge?




My backup records all of the metadata about the post and the pseudo-markup that each posts contains.  I can get it to Brian very easily (we actually live in the same area now) if we come up with that list.

For what it's worth, the WayBackMachine also records all of this information (but does a full scrape of the relative URls too even).  The best course of action may well be, if we were wanting a "best of" type deals, to simply find them and then make a link to the WayBackMachine since it's already hosted and they have the legal stuff taken care of etc. etc.


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: BGuttman on Jan 12, 2018, 02:28PM
Just as a side note, I would like to credit Jay Ward, creator of Rocky and Bullwinkle, for a huge number of icons in our society.  There are the two spies, Boris and Natasha, who are regularly used as Russian Agents (although Ward claims they are not Russian) and their boss, Fearless Leader; a name often applied derogatively to a head of state.  Another character, Mr.Peabody (a dog) had a time travel device called the Wayback Machine.  Kudos to Mr. Ward for his contributions to our discussions.


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: mwpfoot on Jan 12, 2018, 02:32PM
I posted twice over there yesterday: 11 views, no responses.

Thankfully it's nothing urgent.

 :razz:



Title: Re: Donations
Post by: Todd Jonz on Jan 12, 2018, 02:59PM

mwpfoot writes:

> I posted twice over there yesterday: 11 views, no responses.

Typical chicken/egg problem.  When TC first went online there was plenty of traffic, and for a while I was optimistic that it would reach critical mass.  Alas, for whatever reasons, the community migrated back to TTF.  In retrospect it doesn't appear that TC can flourish unless TTF dies.  I find this sad, given that the TC proprietor listens to his users and has proven his willingness to implement the changes and features those users want -- something that will never happen here.  It's a mystery to me why people prefer to congregate on this creaky old site when there are infinite possibilities at TC.




Title: Re: Donations
Post by: Geezerhorn on Jan 12, 2018, 03:06PM
mwpfoot writes:

> I posted twice over there yesterday: 11 views, no responses.

Typical chicken/egg problem.  When TC first went online there was plenty of traffic, and for a while I was optimistic that it would reach critical mass.  Alas, for whatever reasons, the community migrated back to TTF.  In retrospect it doesn't appear that TC can flourish unless TTF dies.  I find this sad, given that the TC proprietor listens to his users and has proven his willingness to implement the changes and features those users want -- something that will never happen here.  It's a mystery to me why people prefer to congregate on this creaky old site when there are infinite possibilities at TC.


People won't go over there en mass until this place either breaks or is shut down. Simply asking or telling everyone to go over there would probably have a very limited and temporary effect, for a variety of reasons.

I am also surprised this site hasn't flat-lined! Every time it goes down, I think, "This is IT".

...Geezer


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: mwpfoot on Jan 12, 2018, 03:20PM
Yea Todd, it's weird to watch the complaints about features and money continue here with a viable alternative up and running one bookmark away.

So I'm posting my new posts over there: mwpfoot, party of one. Hopefully the server can handle my post or two a month. I can always chime in here, but sheesh: broken HTML from last October asking for money on the homepage says it all.

Respectfully to Geezer and other daily posters: Just do it? We are the community. We can do better. It's a tiny change. This site is searchable, and always will be in some form. Search here, post there. What's the difference. We search, reference and link Contempora Corner, It's A Bear, Conn Loyalist, and others DAILY. Add this site to your list of references and give some life to the willing.

A motivational speaker I am not,
 :good:


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: Geezerhorn on Jan 12, 2018, 05:07PM
Yea Todd, it's weird to watch the complaints about features and money continue here with a viable alternative up and running one bookmark away.

So I'm posting my new posts over there: mwpfoot, party of one. Hopefully the server can handle my post or two a month. I can always chime in here, but sheesh: broken HTML from last October asking for money on the homepage says it all.

Respectfully to Geezer and other daily posters: Just do it? We are the community. We can do better. It's a tiny change. This site is searchable, and always will be in some form. Search here, post there. What's the difference. We search, reference and link Contempora Corner, It's A Bear, Conn Loyalist, and others DAILY. Add this site to your list of references and give some life to the willing.

A motivational speaker I am not,
 :good:

 :good:

I'm with you. I posted there this afternoon about a really, really great tool that can make everyone sound like a million bucks. To find out more...

...Geezer


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: Todd Jonz on Jan 12, 2018, 06:07PM

mwpfoot writes:

> I'm posting my new posts over there...Respectfully to
> Geezer and other daily posters: Just do it? We are the
> community. We can do better. It's a tiny change. This
> site is searchable, and always will be in some form.
> Search here, post there.

That's the spirit!  It's not the archival content that makes TTF a success, it's the community.  A relatively small handful of regulars account for a significant portion of TTF traffic.  If some of those users were to decide they'd rather ride around town in a shiny new Tesla rather than a dilapidated old Edsel, others would follow.  Only the vehicle would be different; everyone would still be riding around with the same group of friends.






Title: Re: Donations
Post by: Matt K on Jan 13, 2018, 07:08AM
mwpfoot writes:

> I'm posting my new posts over there...Respectfully to
> Geezer and other daily posters: Just do it? We are the
> community. We can do better. It's a tiny change. This
> site is searchable, and always will be in some form.
> Search here, post there.

That's the spirit!  It's not the archival content that makes TTF a success, it's the community.  A relatively small handful of regulars account for a significant portion of TTF traffic.  If some of those users were to decide they'd rather ride around town in a shiny new Tesla rather than a dilapidated old Edsel, others would follow.  Only the vehicle would be different; everyone would still be riding around with the same group of friends.


Which is really likely (to me at least) the reason that this site continues to be fine.  Even though it goes down, it isn't a mission critical piece of equipment.  I check it when I'm procrastinating largely. I hardly ever start a new thread and when I do, it's in the classifieds.  Maybe I need to get off my butt and start producing content too?  :evil:


Title: Re: Donations
Post by: robcat2075 on Jan 13, 2018, 08:07AM
Back in the heady days of the Information Super Highway there would be competing forums for various topics.

Someone would get pissed off (or banned), go start another forum and some of the flock would follow him, vowing never to visit the old forum again. Computer graphics was like that.

Facebook seems to have taken a lot of the air out forums in general. TTF is a rare beehive of activity still.



Title: Re: Donations
Post by: mwpfoot on Jan 15, 2018, 10:44AM
Someone would get pissed off (or banned), go start another forum and some of the flock would follow him, vowing never to visit the old forum again. Computer graphics was like that.

Trumpets still live their lives like this.

We trombones are loyal to a fault.

 :D