The Trombone Forum

Practice Break => Purely Politics => Topic started by: CharlieB on Sep 24, 2017, 05:50PM



Title: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: CharlieB on Sep 24, 2017, 05:50PM
I an boycotting the NFL for behavior that I consider to be an affront to every American. I'm talking about the NFL allowing or even encouraging football players to show public disrespect for the National Anthem and the American flag. This behavior isn't about racism, or about protesting President Trump. It's an insult to all the forebears who built the country that is responsible for their prosperity. Free speech may give the NFL to right to behave in this manner, but it also gives me the right, no the obligation, to condemn them in the strongest possible terms for their failure to show respect for their country. If they have no such patriotism, then maybe they are in the wrong country. Maybe they should see if they can find a better one somewhere else. I've been to many "somewhere elses" and it taught me a deep appreciation for what we have in America. I'm grateful for every opportunity to salute my Flag and stand for my National Anthem.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Burgerbob on Sep 24, 2017, 05:58PM
I'm glad you see that it's their right.

I'm not sure I understand why you don't see their reasoning.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Matt K on Sep 24, 2017, 05:59PM
Sad!


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: CharlieB on Sep 24, 2017, 06:05PM
I'm glad you see that it's their right.

I'm not sure I understand why you don't see their reasoning.

I am open to trying to understand an explanation for their reasoning. Please explain to me how their behavior benefits any worthwhile cause. No wait, please first explain to me what their cause is.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: BGuttman on Sep 24, 2017, 06:08PM
CharlieB, are you aware that the First Amendment to the Constitution allows them to do exactly what they are?  It was passed by the same founding fathers you so revere.  They understood that having public discussion about differences can lead to resolution.  The [mostly Black] players are protesting the action of many racist Police officers.  They are no less patriotic than you are.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: MrPillow on Sep 24, 2017, 06:41PM
deep appreciation for what we have in America.

Such as the freedom to not worship flags and songs?


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: badger on Sep 24, 2017, 06:57PM
CharlieB, are you aware that the First Amendment to the Constitution allows them to do exactly what they are?  It was passed by the same founding fathers you so revere.  They understood that having public discussion about differences can lead to resolution.  The [mostly Black] players are protesting the action of many racist Police officers.  They are no less patriotic than you are.

Correct as to Government...Private...Not So Much.

They can be also be Fired at the Whim of the Owner...Free Speech...RIGHT!

Or negated by the PUBLIC!

AT THEIR WHIM!


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: BGuttman on Sep 24, 2017, 07:03PM
Correct as to Government...Private...Not So Much.

They can be also be Fired at the Whim of the Owner...Free Speech...RIGHT!

Or negated by the PUBLIC!

AT THEIR WHIM!

Just remember: the players demonstrating had the approval of the owners.  Had the owners said no, they would have done what the owners asked.

If you think that patriotism is measured by how you revere a flag or a song, you are missing a large part of what patriotism is.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Burgerbob on Sep 24, 2017, 07:08PM
Please explain to me how their behavior benefits any worthwhile cause. No wait, please first explain to me what their cause is.

People of color have had a rough time in the United States for the last, oh, 300+ years or so. This has gotten better to an extent, but has not been fully addressed. This action (or lack thereof) of not standing for the National Anthem is a highly publicized way to show their support in this regard.

Are they doing it because they disrespect the flag, or servicepeople, or whatever? Of course not.

Forcing everyone to respect the symbol of our United States at all times seems pretty unpatriotic to me, personally.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: gregs70 on Sep 24, 2017, 07:09PM
But as I mentioned elsewhere, it doesn't matter much to the team or fans if a player has one or more DUIs, drug busts, domestic abuse arrests, multiple children from multiple women and not married to any of them, etc. but if the player takes a knee in protest, they want to hang him.  Me, I always stand and take my hat off.  Nobody is kicking the fans out who ignore the anthem; sitting with a hat on joking about nothing instead of standing up is much worse than actively protesting by taking a knee during it.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: robcat2075 on Sep 24, 2017, 07:14PM
Boycotting entertainment they throw at you on free TV.  That's a brave stand.

But I'm with you completely.  In fact, I'm a better patriot than you! (https://jetboaters.net/flag.gif)

I've never been to an NFL game, I haven't watched a Super Bowl in at least 20 years, I've never bought an NFL-branded product, not even a special "DALLAS COWBOYS" box of Count Chocula.

For a long time I thought I despised it because it was a preposterous object of fanboy idol-worship, funded by taxpayer giveaways to rich people, and leaving not only the actual NFL players with permanent disabilities but also thousands of wanna-bes and never-should-haves who got sucked into the public school and college football vortex because of the artificial hero status created for it by the corrupt media parasites who feed off of it.

But now I see the real danger... someone didn't rise for a song that no one bothered to make our national anthem until 1931 and that audiences have been using as a last chance to go pee or buy a corndog for decades. 

All the other stuff, no problem! Anthem sitting, national crisis! :dont:


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: badger on Sep 24, 2017, 07:24PM
I'm simple on this...The treatment of Tom Landry decades ago sealed the deal!

 :evil:

I do not watch NFL!


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Dan Hine on Sep 24, 2017, 07:42PM
My musings this morning prompted the thought "what did just sitting around ever accomplish?" As soon as I said that "out loud" I immediately remembered learning about the sit-ins of the 1960s. And I felt foolish. 

My personal beliefs will always advocate standing for our flag and The Star Spangled Banner. And I will stand for The Marine's Hymn, Anchors Aweigh, and The Army Song (the branches I've served in).

But for those who think differently than me, I should seek patience and understanding.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Ellrod on Sep 24, 2017, 07:52PM
Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

Never more true.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Baron von Bone on Sep 24, 2017, 07:54PM
Correct as to Government...Private...Not So Much.
 
They can be also be Fired at the Whim of the Owner...Free Speech...RIGHT!
 
Or negated by the PUBLIC!
 
AT THEIR WHIM!

But those who actually understand the Constitution and actually respect the principles it's based upon would know better than to hope those who exercise those principles should be punished for doing so. It's only those who don't understand or actually don't agree with those principles who would want to see that.
 
Unfortunately, just as the PEW research shows every year, a whole lot of people don't understand or agree with the Constitution ... often those who think they're its strongest supporters.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: CharlieB on Sep 24, 2017, 08:00PM
CharlieB, are you aware that the First Amendment to the Constitution allows them to do exactly what they are?

Hi Bruce. Yes, I am very aware of the First Amendment; but having the right to do something doesn't necessarily mean that it's the right thing to do. I understand the need to draw attention to the conflict between police and minorities, but this behavior is counterproductive in that it is serving only to handicap their cause by creating further divisiveness. I will concede that the behavior is creating publicity. Whether that furthers or hinders their cause is yet to be seen. I know that it's not helping me to be more sympathetic to the problem.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: CharlieB on Sep 24, 2017, 08:04PM
Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.

Never more true.

Not sure that's true, but if it is, I'm proud to be a scoundrel.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Burgerbob on Sep 24, 2017, 08:05PM
Not sure that's true, but if it is, I'm proud to be a scoundrel.

Ugh. This is the scariest thing I've seen on the internet today.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Ellrod on Sep 24, 2017, 08:17PM
Not sure that's true, but if it is, I'm proud to be a scoundrel.

Let's see ...

Dr. Samuel Johnson. From Wikipedia:

Samuel Johnson, often referred to as Dr. Johnson, was an English writer who made lasting contributions to English literature as a poet, essayist, moralist, literary critic, biographer, editor and lexicographer.


And then there's  CharlieB. Retired engineer and amateur trombonist. "An empty barrel makes the most noise". Indeed sir.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: BGuttman on Sep 24, 2017, 08:19PM
I guess CharlieB is in Hillary's "basket" :evil:


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: slideorama on Sep 24, 2017, 08:30PM
I know that it's not helping me to be more sympathetic to the problem.

So, you need help in understanding BLM?

Wow.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Baron von Bone on Sep 24, 2017, 08:35PM
Yes, I am very aware of the First Amendment; but having the right to do something doesn't necessarily mean that it's the right thing to do.

Trying to stop or advocating against lawful demonstration dishonors all of us who have served in uniform to protect that right, although the right to dishonor troops and vets and the Constitution also falls under the same protected right. You might want to consider the implications.
 
It's not appreciated--at least not by this vet, and I'd argue any vet who took his or her oath seriously and understands what it meant (I think cops tend to have a more solid understanding of this kind of oath, quite frankly, just because of the fact the letter and interpretation of law, in detail, is much more directly in the picture in their day-to-day duties than constitutional principles are in a soldier's).
 
In any case I'd argue that if you can't offer a sound explanation as to how a given protest doesn't fall under the protection of the Constitution (as is quite arguable when white supremacist groups incite violence, for example) and you still can't bring yourself to support the constitutional right of the protestors, then you have an issue to resolve with the Constitution, not so much those it's protecting from those who can't quite support what it's about when their personal views get in the way.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: robcat2075 on Sep 24, 2017, 08:48PM
I understand the need to draw attention to the conflict between police and minorities, but this behavior is counterproductive in that it is serving only to handicap their cause by creating further divisiveness.

What IS appropriate for them to do to communicate their grievance?

Don't include things that have already been tried and don't work.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: harrison.t.reed on Sep 24, 2017, 09:33PM
There are many reasons to not support professional sports. I don't think that the players exercising their rights to free speech is one of the pressing ones.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Russ White on Sep 25, 2017, 05:51AM
I suspect this thread is not in the proper place. I, for one, am sadly discouraged to see the vast amount of superficial, "my country, right or wrong" thinking so many Americans believe constitutes "patriotism". Most really have no true understanding of the word. Here is one of the most thoughtful, dead, spot on commentaries I have ever seen on the subject. This guy speaks most eloquently to the issue.........

https://www.attn.com/stories/11050/military-veteran-stands-colin-kaepernick?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=direct-share&utm_campaign=shares

"If you want respect, you have to do the things necessary to earn it each and every single day. There are no short cuts and no exceptions.
"Respect cannot be compelled.
"Respect cannot be bought.
"Respect cannot be inherited...Respect has to be earned.
"Respect. Has. To. Be. Earned."
"Now, any veteran worth the label should know that. If they don't, then likely they weren't much of a soldier to begin with and you can tell them I said so.
"IF Kaepernick doesn't feel his country respects him enough for him to respect it in return, well, then you can't MAKE him respect it.".....................
..................."You might force this man into the illusion of respect. You might. Would you be satisfied then? Would that make you happy? Would that make you respect your nation, the one which forced a man into the illusion of respect, a nation of little clockwork patriots all pretending satisfaction and respect? Is that what you want? If THAT's what matters to you, the illusion of respect, then you're not talking about freedom or liberty. You're not talking about the United States of America. Instead you're talking about every dictatorship from the Nazis to North Korea where people are lined up and MADE to salute with the muzzle of a gun pressed to the back of their necks."......................
............................."If America wants the world's respect, it must be worthy of respect.
"America must be worthy of respect. Torture, rendition, indefinite detention, unarmed black men shot down in the street every day, poverty, inequality, voter suppression, racism, bigotry in every form, obstructionism, blind patriotism, NONE of those things are worthy of respect from anybody -- least of all an American."

Powerful stuff, and, as I said earlier, DEAD, SPOT ON!


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: ddickerson on Sep 25, 2017, 06:49AM
I suspect this thread is not in the proper place. I, for one, am sadly discouraged to see the vast amount of superficial, "my country, right or wrong" thinking so many Americans believe constitutes "patriotism". Most really have no true understanding of the word. Here is one of the most thoughtful, dead, spot on commentaries I have ever seen on the subject. This guy speaks most eloquently to the issue.........

https://www.attn.com/stories/11050/military-veteran-stands-colin-kaepernick?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=direct-share&utm_campaign=shares

"If you want respect, you have to do the things necessary to earn it each and every single day. There are no short cuts and no exceptions.
"Respect cannot be compelled.
"Respect cannot be bought.
"Respect cannot be inherited...Respect has to be earned.
"Respect. Has. To. Be. Earned."
"Now, any veteran worth the label should know that. If they don't, then likely they weren't much of a soldier to begin with and you can tell them I said so.
"IF Kaepernick doesn't feel his country respects him enough for him to respect it in return, well, then you can't MAKE him respect it.".....................
..................."You might force this man into the illusion of respect. You might. Would you be satisfied then? Would that make you happy? Would that make you respect your nation, the one which forced a man into the illusion of respect, a nation of little clockwork patriots all pretending satisfaction and respect? Is that what you want? If THAT's what matters to you, the illusion of respect, then you're not talking about freedom or liberty. You're not talking about the United States of America. Instead you're talking about every dictatorship from the Nazis to North Korea where people are lined up and MADE to salute with the muzzle of a gun pressed to the back of their necks."......................
............................."If America wants the world's respect, it must be worthy of respect.
"America must be worthy of respect. Torture, rendition, indefinite detention, unarmed black men shot down in the street every day, poverty, inequality, voter suppression, racism, bigotry in every form, obstructionism, blind patriotism, NONE of those things are worthy of respect from anybody -- least of all an American."

Powerful stuff, and, as I said earlier, DEAD, SPOT ON!

I've heard it said that this disrespect for our Flag is about BLM and not Trump. That group deserves no respect from any decent human.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Baron von Bone on Sep 25, 2017, 06:53AM
I've heard it said that this disrespect for our Flag is about BLM and not Trump.

Shocking.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: ddickerson on Sep 25, 2017, 07:08AM

Shocking.

and also anti-police.

FLASHBACK: NFL Banned Teams From Honoring Murdered Cops



Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Exzaclee on Sep 25, 2017, 07:19AM
1) It's anti racist police. It's anti racist-policing. If you think racist police officers and policing are a-o-k, you're a part of the problem.

2) BLM is not a violent group, it is a group that fights for racial equality. Stop getting your news from breitfart.

3) How is exercising your 1st amendment right disrespectful? Kneeling is actually an accepted method of respecting the flag. Read up on the flag code. Laying the flag flat (like when they march the giant flag out on the field) is disrespectful. Wearing artistic depictions of the flag on clothing like underwear and suit coats, printed on plates and napkins and the like is disrespectful. Again, read the flag code.

4) All Americans have the duty to speak out against injustice, particularly when it occurs in our own country. Standing against equality is about the most un-american thing I can think of.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: BGuttman on Sep 25, 2017, 07:20AM
Dickerson, sometimes I wish you could be Black for a while to see what these people deal with.

Imagine you are driving along minding your own business and suddenly you are pulled over and issued a ticket for something like a broken taillight.  The cop then demands you get out of your car and they do a search "for drugs".  Then they arrest you for finding something else in your car.

Now imagine you are a licensed owner of a concealed carry permit and are stopped.  You offer to give the gun to the officer but he shouts some unintelligible and impossible task.  You attempt to give him the gun and instead he shoots you dead.

Imagine that you are walking down the street and you are swept up in a police raid.  Thrown into the back of a van while handcuffed.  They drive over the bumpiest roads in town swerving around corners so you are thrown from side to side.  Your neck is broken.

These guys are not necessarily anti-Police, but instead are anti some  police -- the ones who do these things.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: ddickerson on Sep 25, 2017, 07:22AM


2) BLM is not a violent group,

Dude!

"How is exercising your 1st amendment right disrespectful? Kneeling is actually an accepted method of respecting the flag."

Tell that to Tebow. Were you a supporter of Tebow?



Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Baron von Bone on Sep 25, 2017, 07:33AM
I've heard it said that this disrespect for our Flag is about BLM and not Trump. That group deserves no respect from any decent human.
Shocking.
and also anti-police.
 
FLASHBACK: NFL Banned Teams From Honoring Murdered Cops

Incredible (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/incredible) ... same source?


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: robcat2075 on Sep 25, 2017, 07:34AM
I suspect this sudden concern for the national anthem is just opportunistic hypocrisy because there wasn't anything like this display of outrage when the networks stopped carrying the anthem ceremony before games.

Aside from the SuperBowl and season openers they've been selling commercial time during the anthem at most games. 90 seconds of commercial time is probably worth around $1 million for a typical game.

If the anthem really is such a sacred thing, shouldn't it be broadcast instead of covered up with Doritos ads? But there's never been outrage over it.  

Rich white people get a free pass on that when there's money to be made. But when a black guy does this symbolic thing for no money... no passes available!



Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: ddickerson on Sep 25, 2017, 07:37AM
I suspect this sudden concern for the national anthem is just opportunistic hypocrisy


I suspect this sudden surge of anti-police, anti-flag, and anti-national anthem was brought about by Hate America supporters.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Burgerbob on Sep 25, 2017, 07:41AM
I suspect this sudden surge of anti-police, anti-flag, and anti-national anthem was brought about by Hate America supporters.

What?


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: BGuttman on Sep 25, 2017, 07:57AM
Dude!

"How is exercising your 1st amendment right disrespectful? Kneeling is actually an accepted method of respecting the flag."

Tell that to Tebow. Were you a supporter of Tebow?


Tebow wasn't kneeling for the Star Spangled Banner.  He was engaging in a form of post-touchdown display.  I think it's no worse or better than the guy who caught the pass dancing around and spiking the ball through the uprights.  He was censured because it took too much game time.

Note: I think Tebow was canned because he wasn't as good a quarterback as they thought.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: ddickerson on Sep 25, 2017, 08:01AM
Shocking.and also anti-police.
 
FLASHBACK: NFL Banned Teams From Honoring Murdered Cops
Incredible (https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/incredible) ... same source?

Five Dallas police were murdered in July 2016, and the Cowboys unveiled a special decal to honor with a star and the words ďARM IN ARMĒ to honor the police.

The NFL wasnít having any of it, and put an end to the decal before they could wear it for one game.






Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: BGuttman on Sep 25, 2017, 08:08AM
Five Dallas police were murdered in July 2016, and the Cowboys unveiled a special decal to honor with a star and the words ďARM IN ARMĒ to honor the police.

The NFL wasnít having any of it, and put an end to the decal before they could wear it for one game.


I bet a banner hung over the stands would have been fine.  The NFL is VERY strict about players wearing decals of any sort.  It required a special dispensation for the players to wear the number of a teammate who died.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: ddickerson on Sep 25, 2017, 08:10AM
I bet a banner hung over the stands would have been fine.  The NFL is VERY strict about players wearing decals of any sort.  It required a special dispensation for the players to wear the number of a teammate who died.

I would think that the assassination of 5 police officers would suffice for normal people.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: BGuttman on Sep 25, 2017, 08:15AM
I would think that the assassination of 5 police officers would suffice for normal people.

The NFL is very worried about the camel's nose under the tent.  Where do we end.  Suppose a rich donor wanted his name on the players' jerseys.  Or maybe his company.  Let one in and suddenly the players look like NASCAR drivers.

No.  A banner, maybe an announcement over the PA before the game, and perhaps even a short ceremony would show the team's sympathy to the slain policemen.  It could have been handled better.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: francischap on Sep 25, 2017, 08:19AM
From a U.K. perspective if you'll allow me:

Dignified, non-violent protest that is almost prayer
like and harkens back to previous protests that the USA  can rightfully be proud of.....
    'SOBs!'
Carrying a Nazi flag and chanting racist slogans......
    The silence was deafening until it was filled with BS.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: ddickerson on Sep 25, 2017, 08:25AM
From a U.K. perspective if you'll allow me:

Dignified, non-violent protest that is almost prayer
like and harkens back to previous protests that the USA  can rightfully be proud of.....
    'SOBs!'
Carrying a Nazi flag and chanting racist slogans......
    The silence was deafening until it was filled with BS.


So, being a supporter of anti-police is OK if you do it prayerfully? Being for anti-police is so ignorant, it boggles the mind that so many people are supporting them. Try living without the protection of the police. These NFL brats(children) are protected at all the games by the police, who they are protesting against. And people are ignorant enough to support such idiocy.  :dontknow:



Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: robcat2075 on Sep 25, 2017, 08:27AM
The Dallas Cowboys weren't allowed to put a decal on their helmet.  

They weren't banned from otherwise publicly recognizing the tragedy and indeed they did with... hey, this sounds familiar... a pregame ceremony. (https://youtu.be/UayqXrcfbvM)


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: ddickerson on Sep 25, 2017, 08:31AM
The NFL is very worried about the camel's nose under the tent.  Where do we end.  Suppose a rich donor wanted his name on the players' jerseys.  Or maybe his company.  Let one in and suddenly the players look like NASCAR drivers.

No.  A banner, maybe an announcement over the PA before the game, and perhaps even a short ceremony would show the team's sympathy to the slain policemen.  It could have been handled better.

So, you're for selective free speech.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: ddickerson on Sep 25, 2017, 08:32AM
The Dallas Cowboys weren't allowed to put a decal on their helmet.  

They weren't banned from otherwise publicly recognizing the tragedy and indeed they did with... hey, this sounds familiar... a pregame ceremony. (https://youtu.be/UayqXrcfbvM)

Again, selective free speech.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: francischap on Sep 25, 2017, 08:35AM
As far as I'm aware, and has already been pointed out by others,this is not a protest against the police, but against some of the incredibly disturbing incidents that have happened recently.

I think the prize for childish behaviour lies elsewhere.......


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Ellrod on Sep 25, 2017, 08:38AM
I suspect this sudden surge of anti-police, anti-flag, and anti-national anthem was brought about by Hate America supporters.

Why do you hate black people DD?


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: BGuttman on Sep 25, 2017, 08:39AM
Dusty's ideas of "free speech" seem a bit odd.

He rails against preventing a creche on the Town Square at Christmas, but if the Muslims want to erect a Mosque he's on the front line asking to tear it down.  Wonder what he'd do if the Lubovitchers tried to put a menorah next to his creche. :evil:


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: harrison.t.reed on Sep 25, 2017, 10:02AM
I'll preface this by saying that I don't care about what pro sportsmen/women do -- they don't get a cent from me. If my friends want to watch the pigskin, I'll gladly watch it on their dime. But the problem that the OP has with the NFL at this moment (I'm assuming they are lifelong sports watchers) is kind of ironic in light of the MASSIVE amount of debauchery that goes on and has been going on in pro sports across the board.

The folly is that just by watching the NFL and professional sports in general, you're supporting the macroparasitic lifestyle of the players, team owners and network execs. You also are standing up for the nonsense that gets advertised on the networks, and even the simple fact that ESPN will gladly take your 39.99 every month and STILL show you mostly ads. You're saying, "yes, more of that please!".

There has been some abysmal behavior on the parts of pro athletes across all sports. If this kneeling business is what gets you to stop watching (and not the cheating, drug abuse, and prostitution rings), you really should look into your morals and some of the other reasons concerning why it's morally questionable to support pro sports at all.

Like I said, I'll watch it because it doesn't bother me. But I also pay nothing other than my time to do so.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Dan Hine on Sep 25, 2017, 10:27AM
But the problem that the OP has with the NFL at this moment (I'm assuming they are lifelong sports watchers) is kind of ironic in light of the MASSIVE amount of debauchery that goes on and has been going on in pro sports across the board.


What this all reminds me of is the Starz series "Spartacus: Blood and Sand."  So long as the entertainment is doing what the masters want, no one watching cares.  When the entertainment starts to do what it wants - there will be hell to pay.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: MrPillow on Sep 25, 2017, 10:41AM
Dusty's ideas of "free speech" seem a bit odd.

He rails against preventing a creche on the Town Square at Christmas, but if the Muslims want to erect a Mosque he's on the front line asking to tear it down.  Wonder what he'd do if the Lubovitchers tried to put a menorah next to his creche. :evil:

He'd probably beat them back with a crowbar as soon as he was done bludgeoning the more colorful minorities.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: JasonDonnelly on Sep 25, 2017, 10:56AM
Here's a thought: if players were kneeling/sitting to protest the high veteran suicide rate, would these people still get so fired up about them "disrespecting" the anthem, or the flag, or whatever it is they're actually angry about?


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Baron von Bone on Sep 25, 2017, 11:34AM
Terry Bradshaw explains the issue pretty clearly (https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/9/24/1701080/-Football-legend-Terry-Bradshaw-RIPS-into-Trump).


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Ellrod on Sep 25, 2017, 11:43AM
I doubt Don has any particular love of country. I expect he's not particularly racist as long as blacks keep their place. His whole diatribe was, as usual, playing to his supporters who love the country so much they want to take it back from the coloreds and make America great again.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: robcat2075 on Sep 25, 2017, 01:47PM
Why is criticizing the police off-limits?  They have a job they are hired to do and expected to do in a certain way that is spelled out in law.

Everyone else has consequences if they don't do their job right. Why should police be immune from public oversight?

Other people have dangerous jobs dealing with dangerous members of the public (https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/epidemic-of-violence-against-health-care-workers-plagues-hospitals/). They don't get a free pass on shooting someone because they had something in their hand or didn't show the deference they expected.

Why is criticizing the police off-limits?



Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Stretch Longarm on Sep 25, 2017, 01:52PM
He'd probably beat them back with a crowbar as soon as he was done bludgeoning the more colorful minorities.

He's just a child who enjoys making outrageous statements to yank chains, and then runs away to giggle, until he comes back to throw another sh*tbomb for effect. Why do you even respond to it? Just ignore him.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: B0B on Sep 25, 2017, 02:17PM
Hi Bruce. Yes, I am very aware of the First Amendment; but having the right to do something doesn't necessarily mean that it's the right thing to do. I understand the need to draw attention to the conflict between police and minorities, but this behavior is counterproductive in that it is serving only to handicap their cause by creating further divisiveness. I will concede that the behavior is creating publicity. Whether that furthers or hinders their cause is yet to be seen. I know that it's not helping me to be more sympathetic to the problem.

To come back to this... What is the appropriate protest then?

This behavior isn't about racism, or about protesting President Trump.
As far as race... What sparked all of this this past weekend?

Trump. Being upset that a basketball team (filled with black guys) was looking to reject his invitation to the white house. So he attacked them, withdrew the invitation they already were not going to accept, and after attacking them... proudly proclaimed that a winning hockey team (filled with all white guys) DID accept his invitation. He then stood in front of an almost entirely white crowd, and decried the actions of a few black guys... quietly protesting societal inequalities...  for being disrespectful. He then held up the sport of nascar - again, almost entirely white - for their patriotism and civil respect. Bear in mind, confederate flags often fly at nascar events... the anthesis of patriotism.

So in short, down with the black basketball players who don't like him, yay for the white hockey guys.
Down with black football players who protest quietly and respectfully, but yay for the southern white guys who want the south to rise again.

And all this... and he sent out tweet after tweet strongly decrying the black protestors that hurt no one. Why? It wasn't even timely.

Yet what was his response to the last KKK rally, where a white supremacist drove through a crowd? Very little, except "there was violence on both sides, and good people on both sides".

How is that NOT racist?


It breathes like a KKK rally, hiding behind hoods and all...

It's an insult to all the forebears who built the country that is responsible for their prosperity.
If you want to see disrespect of the anthem and flag, look at the massive horizontal flag on the field, or the broadcasters who use that time for commercials, or the people in the stands who buy their concessions in the middle of the song. But the players should stand in admiration!

But what actually brought the players out on the field for the anthem? It's a recent event. Turns out... the military spent million of dollars on pro and college sports since 2000 to pay for patriotic events and bigger patriotic shows... because it's good PR and recruitment.

Didn't realize military advertising was such a fundamental thing to respect.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: robcat2075 on Sep 25, 2017, 03:19PM
It's an insult to all the forebears who built the country that is responsible for their prosperity.

I wonder what the slaves who had to build the nation's capitol and presidential mansion would think about your idea of who "built this country"

Or the slaves who had to labor for Washington and Jefferson so they could afford to go fight a revolution or sit and think deep thoughts about liberty?

Or the millions of slaves who had to work to grow the cash crops that financed this country for the first hundred or so years? I wonder who they think "built this country."

I wonder what all the black and other minority people who went off to war to fight for this country would think about the claim that protesting police harassment of minorities is somehow insulting to their memory.

I don't think CharlieB knows much about who "built this country."


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: B0B on Sep 25, 2017, 03:53PM
I understand the need to draw attention to the conflict between police and minorities, but this behavior is counterproductive in that it is serving only to handicap their cause by creating further divisiveness. I will concede that the behavior is creating publicity. Whether that furthers or hinders their cause is yet to be seen. I know that it's not helping me to be more sympathetic to the problem.

To note: the purpose of protesting is to get out a message when those who need to pay attention do not. Either because they refuse to, or simply don't care.

Go listen to music from the black community from 20-30 years ago about race and subjugation. It's just a relevant today... because so little has changed.

BLM marches and protests... and they are called domestic terrorists despite being incredibly peaceful.

Musicians make songs, which are ignored. People give speeches, and are talked over. Can't run from the police or you get shot, can't cooperate with them or you get shot. All on video. But it's the police that matter!

Now... even being still and silent is going too far.

Is there a good way to protest? A better way? Something that would help you be more sympathetic?

Because if not... then you're likely the very problem they are protesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXaJroXK-64
"Tell me, what has become of my life?
I have a wife and two children who love me
I am the victim of police brutality now
I'm tired of bein' the victim of hate
You're rippin' me of my pride, oh, for God's sake
I look to heaven to fulfill its prophecy, set me free"

"Tell me, what has become of my rights?
Am I invisible 'cause you ignore me?
Your proclamation promised me free liberty now
I'm tired of bein' the victim of shame
They're throwin' me in a class with a bad name
I can't believe this is the land from which I came
You know, I do really hate to say it
The government don't wanna see
But if Roosevelt was livin'
He wouldn't let this be, no, no"


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: ronkny on Sep 25, 2017, 04:40PM
To note: the purpose of protesting is to get out a message when those who need to pay attention do not. Either because they refuse to, or simply don't care.

Go listen to music from the black community from 20-30 years ago about race and subjugation. It's just a relevant today... because so little has changed.

BLM marches and protests... and they are called domestic terrorists despite being incredibly peaceful.

Musicians make songs, which are ignored. People give speeches, and are talked over. Can't run from the police or you get shot, can't cooperate with them or you get shot. All on video. But it's the police that matter!

Now... even being still and silent is going too far.

Is there a good way to protest? A better why? Something that would help you be more sympathetic?

Because if not... then you're likely the very problem they are protesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXaJroXK-64
"Tell me, what has become of my life?
I have a wife and two children who love me
I am the victim of police brutality now
I'm tired of bein' the victim of hate
You're rippin' me of my pride, oh, for God's sake
I look to heaven to fulfill its prophecy, set me free"

"Tell me, what has become of my rights?
Am I invisible 'cause you ignore me?
Your proclamation promised me free liberty now
I'm tired of bein' the victim of shame
They're throwin' me in a class with a bad name
I can't believe this is the land from which I came
You know, I do really hate to say it
The government don't wanna see
But if Roosevelt was livin'
He wouldn't let this be, no, no"
Did Martin Luther King and his followers sit, kneel or stretch at sporing events to protest? His movement was very successful. The kneeling and all the hoopla is just a distraction that does nothing to get support from those who find it disrespectful. And that's more than half according to polls.
It's disrespectful to the country that gave them the opportunity to work hard for 5 or 10 years and become a multimillionaire.
The protest isn't illegal but it is disrespectful. Just like those who burn the flag. Not all Vet's feel that way but I do and so does Villanueva of the Steelers and I bet most Vets.
When are they going to protest the black on black crime? They protest something that kills a helluva lot less people than black on black crime.
And another thing.  The knucklehead who started this is not the best representative of the protesters. Huey Newton and Fidel Castro T shirts? Really? And we're suppose to take him seriously?


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: robcat2075 on Sep 25, 2017, 06:01PM
Did Martin Luther King and his followers sit, kneel or stretch at sporing events to protest?

It didn't matter where they went, the white people always tried to claim the peaceful protest was inappropriate and actually causing the violence, so they better stop right now!

Your probably not familiar with King's Letter from the Birmingham Jail which recounts that recurring phenomenon.

Hateful white people don't want black people expressing opinions and they are always going to manufacture some objection about it no matter what form it takes.


Quote
His movement was very successful.

Hmmm... how did that turn out for him?...

My recollection is that he got murdered for it by a white supremacist.

Even after all those non-sporting event protests that you said were all right.



Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: ronkny on Sep 25, 2017, 07:11PM
It didn't matter where they went, the white people always tried to claim the peaceful protest was inappropriate and actually causing the violence, so they better stop right now!

Your probably not familiar with King's Letter from the Birmingham Jail which recounts that recurring phenomenon.

Hateful white people don't want black people expressing opinions and they are always going to manufacture some objection about it no matter what form it takes.


Hmmm... how did that turn out for him?...

My recollection is that he got murdered for it by a white supremacist.

Even after all those non-sporting event protests that you said were all right.


It turned out great for his cause.
You do know that many people throughout history have died for their cause. Killed by someone who hated them. Whatís your point?
Hateful white people may do that. And so might many hateful black people and hateful brown people.  So what? Some people are hateful. We know that.



Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: robcat2075 on Sep 25, 2017, 07:24PM
It turned out great for his cause.

No, it hasn't turned out great.

A white cop can still shoot an unarmed black person and only has to say "I thought he had a gun" or "he made a furtive glance" and get punished with just a paid vacation. They don't even have to plant a gun anymore.

And when a policeman gets killed I haven't heard anyone say "that's OK, it turned out great for his cause!"











Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Greg Waits on Sep 25, 2017, 07:32PM
I am open to trying to understand an explanation for their reasoning. Please explain to me how their behavior benefits any worthwhile cause. No wait, please first explain to me what their cause is.

Have you been living in a bubble?

The 'cause' or message is, there is not equal treatment of minorities in this country, specifically by law enforcement....at least in many cases that are reported in the news. Unarmed blacks get shot by policemen and even when overwhelming evidence exists that shows the shoots were unjustified, the policemen aren't held accountable. Nothing will change unless people are forced to face the truth.

Yes, many police shootings ARE justified, but many are not.

And by the way, the 1st amendment gives citizens the right to freedom of speech and expression. And there are no laws mandating patriotic gestures. If you want that, I suggest that you take a time machine back to Nazi Germany.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Greg Waits on Sep 25, 2017, 07:37PM
Dickerson, sometimes I wish you could be Black for a while to see what these people deal with.

Imagine you are driving along minding your own business and suddenly you are pulled over and issued a ticket for something like a broken taillight.  The cop then demands you get out of your car and they do a search "for drugs".  Then they arrest you for finding something else in your car.

Now imagine you are a licensed owner of a concealed carry permit and are stopped.  You offer to give the gun to the officer but he shouts some unintelligible and impossible task.  You attempt to give him the gun and instead he shoots you dead.

Imagine that you are walking down the street and you are swept up in a police raid.  Thrown into the back of a van while handcuffed.  They drive over the bumpiest roads in town swerving around corners so you are thrown from side to side.  Your neck is broken.

These guys are not necessarily anti-Police, but instead are anti some  police -- the ones who do these things.

Don't hold your breath. DD prefers to keep thinking that the world is perfect as it is.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: ronkny on Sep 25, 2017, 07:37PM
No, it hasn't turned out great.

A white cop can still shoot an unarmed black person and only has to say "I thought he had a gun" or "he made a furtive glance" and get punished with just a paid vacation. They don't even have to plant a gun anymore.

And when a policeman gets killed I haven't heard anyone say "that's OK, it turned out great for his cause!"


Except that more whites  than blacks are killed by cops.  More blacks are killed by blacks.  Once again, where are the protests?

Iím guessing you are not nor ever have been a cop. I think I have a much better perspective since most everyone in my family including cousins, and also friends,  were or are cops going back generations. Most people who think cops kill too often often have no clue what itís like to be a cop.
Cops give their life for people. They sign up knowing that their ticket could get punched any time.
Keep politics out of sports. Period.









Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: ronkny on Sep 25, 2017, 07:41PM
I donít think anyone here has said that itís illegal to protest.  Itís just in poor taste to protest the national anthem and our flag.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Greg Waits on Sep 25, 2017, 07:44PM
I'd really like to know how many of these people complaining actually get off of their sofas and stand up while the anthem is being played.

None I bet.

Yet they ***** and moan


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Dan Hine on Sep 25, 2017, 07:49PM
Except that more whites  than blacks are killed by cops.  More blacks are killed by blacks.

You haven't accounted for the fact that white people make up a significantly higher percentage of the U.S. population.  Almost 6 times as much.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: ronkny on Sep 25, 2017, 07:51PM
Nobody has ever asked anyone to stand for the national anthem at home. We in the military never even do  at home or on a ship. Only when we are obligated, during colors  or during  a ceremony.
So itís not expected that you stand while watching tv.  Thatís just ridiculous..


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: robcat2075 on Sep 25, 2017, 07:57PM
Quote
Itís just in poor taste to protest the national anthem and our flag.


Strawman. That's not what they are protesting.



And asking the police if every shooting is justified? I'm sure that will be an unbiased examination of the facts.


And everyone in your family is a cop?  That is as powerful as DD's story about his two nephews.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: BGuttman on Sep 25, 2017, 08:00PM
Ronk, buddy.  How many people listened to the Vietnam War protesters when all they did was march down the street?  None.  But burn a flag and all of a sudden everybody knows about them.  Have Jane Fonda go to North Vietnam and everybody knows about them.

The demonstrations this week were in response to El Fearless Leader claiming that any demonstration during the SSB at a football game should get the demonstrator fired.  This is a direct violation of free speech.  Sure, the team owners can fire the guys.  But in this case they went to the owners and got permission.  They don't want to disrespect people in the Armed Forces nor do they want to disrespect Veterans, nor are they unpatriotic.  

Note that the original demonstrators were mostly Blacks, who had a major dog in the fight.  Try "driving while black" some time.  Your family will pull them over and give them s**t.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: ronkny on Sep 25, 2017, 08:03PM
You haven't accounted for the fact that white people make up a significantly higher percentage of the U.S. population.  Almost 6 times as much.
Blacks make up 13% of the populations and commit 52% of the crimes.
This is a good article.
https://www.google.com/amp/amp.nationalreview.com/article/451466/police-violence-against-black-men-rare-heres-what-data-actually-say


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Dan Hine on Sep 25, 2017, 08:05PM
Blacks make up 13% of the populations and commit 52% of the crimes.
This is a good article.
https://www.google.com/amp/amp.nationalreview.com/article/451466/police-violence-against-black-men-rare-heres-what-data-actually-say

Why do you think they commit 52% of the crimes?


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: ronkny on Sep 25, 2017, 08:06PM


Strawman. That's not what they are protesting.



And asking the police if every shooting is justified? I'm sure that will be an unbiased examination of the facts.


And everyone in your family is a cop?  That is as powerful as DD's story about his two nephews.
No.   Itís infinitely more powerful.
BTW in 29 years as a cop my dad never fired his weapon at anyone.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: MrPillow on Sep 25, 2017, 08:07PM
Stick all the white men in a society where they are constantly beaten down and held in poverty for being an inferior race and I imagine a large number of them would slip into crime as well. Make whatever excuses you want. Maybe you, Dusty, and Charlie can settle the same private whites-only island some day.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: ronkny on Sep 25, 2017, 08:08PM
Why do you think they commit 52% of the crimes?
Theres lots of reasons. None of them are justified whether youíre black or white.
Money, education, broken families, glorifying gun violence.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: ronkny on Sep 25, 2017, 08:10PM
Stick all the white men in a society where they are constantly beaten down and held in poverty for being an inferior race and I imagine a large number of them would slip into crime as well. Make whatever excuses you want. Maybe you, Dusty, and Charlie can settle the same private whites-only island some day.
Ever listen to Morgan Freeman. Heíd strongly disagree with that statement.
Why would I want to live on a whites only island?  Do you live on one?  Do you like it?


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: MrPillow on Sep 25, 2017, 08:11PM
There'd certainly be no pesky minorities protesting at your national anthem.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Greg Waits on Sep 25, 2017, 08:13PM
Ever listen to Morgan Freeman. Heíd strongly disagree with that statement.
Why would I want to live on a whites only island?  Do you live on one?  Do you like it?
|

You didn't answer the question. How would you feel if that was your reality?


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: ronkny on Sep 25, 2017, 08:21PM
|

You didn't answer the question. How would you feel if that was your reality?
I didnít see a question. But if the question is implied then I would feel awful but I wouldnít blame anyone but myself. Since lots of  black people have done quite well. Iíd want to be one of those successful people. I would not want  another race of people telling me how tough I have it and that I need their sympathy and help.
My family were poor Irish Catholics. They were considered inferior by the British and then by Americans. But they made it.
Bruceís ancestors were almost wiped off the face of the earth yet they have made it too.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Dan Hine on Sep 25, 2017, 08:34PM
Theres lots of reasons. None of them are justified whether youíre black or white.
Money, education, broken families, glorifying gun violence.

Why do you think problems with money, education, broken families, and glorifying gun violence are more prevalent in the black population then? 


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: ronkny on Sep 25, 2017, 08:42PM
Why do you think problems with money, education, broken families, and glorifying gun violence are more prevalent in the black population then? 
Partly because we have enabled it. That leads to apathy and hopelessness.Otherwise I donít know. Because itís not just race. Many minorities have done extremely well. In spit of being a minority.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Dan Hine on Sep 25, 2017, 08:48PM
Many minorities have done extremely well. In spit of being a minority.

Which ones in particular?


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Greg Waits on Sep 25, 2017, 08:55PM
I wish that DD and Ronk (and others who are like minded) could for second imagine what it would be like to be prejudged by the color of their skin. And imagine being pulled over for no reason other than suspicion based on the color of their skin. And imagine sitting scared in their car with a gun pointed at their heads, wondering if they will be alive the next day and be able to go home to their loved ones.

Imagine having to tell your son how to act when you are pulled over for being black. It happens. But they don't think so. Or if they do know it happens, they don't think it is a big deal.

But they won't go there. They are incapable of empathy for anyone different from themselves. They live in their lilly white pseudo-Apartheid world that does not need to be changed. Why? Because they aren't the ones whose civil rights are constantly being questioned.

Sad


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: ronkny on Sep 25, 2017, 09:02PM
Which ones in particular?
Dr Ben Carson.
Dr Blackmon and Dr James (shipmates of mine) and many officers and chiefs in the Navy and other armed forces.
Master Chief Brashear
Senior Chief Jones (SEAL)
Most of the NBA
Most of MLB
Half of the NFL
Tim Scott
JC Watts
Many entertainers
The Tuskeegee Airmen
And many more.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: ronkny on Sep 25, 2017, 09:10PM
I wish that DD and Ronk (and others who are like minded) could for second imagine what it would be like to be prejudged by the color of their skin. And imagine being pulled over for no reason other than suspicion based on the color of their skin. And imagine sitting scared in their car with a gun pointed at their heads, wondering if they will be alive the next day and be able to go home to their loved ones.

Imagine having to tell your son how to act when you are pulled over for being black. It happens. But they don't think so. Or if they do know it happens, they don't think it is a big deal.

But they won't go there. They are incapable of empathy for anyone different from themselves. They live in their lilly white pseudo-Apartheid world that does not need to be changed. Why? Because they aren't the ones whose civil rights are constantly being questioned.

Sad
I can imagine it just as well you or any other white person.
Are your civil rights constantly being violated? (BTW, their rights are not being constantly violated. I know you heard that somewhere but itís not true)
You donít know how they feel any better than any other white person.
Empathy. Youíre going to lecture me on empathy?
The US Navy is not a lily white apartheid world.

Very sad.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: MrPillow on Sep 25, 2017, 09:16PM
Most of MLB

I wasn't aware that less than half counted as "most" :dontknow:


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: ronkny on Sep 25, 2017, 09:27PM
I wasn't aware that less than half counted as "most" :dontknow:
Sorry. 37%. My post was mostly correct.  Is it important that itís less than half? To you?


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: MrPillow on Sep 25, 2017, 09:33PM
No, I just enjoy taking the ****.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: ronkny on Sep 25, 2017, 09:44PM
No, I just enjoy taking the ****.
Well thatís helpful.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Dan Hine on Sep 26, 2017, 03:10AM
Dr Ben Carson.
Dr Blackmon and Dr James (shipmates of mine) and many officers and chiefs in the Navy and other armed forces.
Master Chief Brashear
Senior Chief Jones (SEAL)
Most of the NBA
Most of MLB
Half of the NFL
Tim Scott
JC Watts
Many entertainers
The Tuskeegee Airmen
And many more.


Sorry - I wasn't clear.  Which minorities have done extremely well?  The answer you gave is a list of people, not minorities. 


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: B0B on Sep 26, 2017, 03:51AM
Did Martin Luther King and his followers sit, kneel or stretch at sporing events to protest? His movement was very successful. The kneeling and all the hoopla is just a distraction that does nothing to get support from those who find it disrespectful. And that's more than half according to polls.
Speaking of MLK jr and disrespect, he was arrested for protesting and boycotting the buses. His home was bombed a few days later. He was the arrested and jailed for a sit in. He was arrested for obstructing the sidewalk and protesting without a permit. He was arrested and jailed for holding a prayer vigil. He was against jailed for protesting without a permit. And in the end, he was murdered in cold blood.

His entire campaign was attacked, slandered, and attempted to be stopped on every front and on every corner by those who found it "disrespectful".

In comparison, a few chants of "being a distraction"... to follow MLK's example, they need to amp it up many times over, not give it up.

It's disrespectful to the country that gave them the opportunity to work hard for 5 or 10 years and become a multimillionaire.
It's disrespectful to buy concessions in the middle of an anthem, or to spread out a 100 yard flag horizontally, or to play commercials instead, or to use the event for recruitment for the military... Yet somehow none of these are problems - despite being even more standard and widespread. Just that guy quietly kneeling in the corner there.

What's even more disrespectful is to claim this is about respect of country, while simultaneously disrespecting the rights that country was founded on.


When are they going to protest the black on black crime? They protest something that kills a helluva lot less people than black on black crime.
And another thing.  The knucklehead who started this is not the best representative of the protesters. Huey Newton and Fidel Castro T shirts? Really? And we're suppose to take him seriously?
Yes... you found something offensive to their protests. So before you could even think of addressing THEIR protests, they must first address YOUR protest of their protests. Not only is that talking in circles, it is an intentional avoidance of any and all of the issues they are protesting. Hence their protests.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: B0B on Sep 26, 2017, 04:01AM
Are your civil rights constantly being violated? (BTW, their rights are not being constantly violated. I know you heard that somewhere but itís not true)

Very sad.
When 1/4 of adults in a particular race have a felony conviction, and the rest of the population hovers around 6%...

There is indeed a clear violation of civil rights going on.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: B0B on Sep 26, 2017, 04:24AM
As an aside, trump has tweeter 4 more times in the past hour about football and the anthem.

That's more comments in the past hour about something that injured no one, than of any actual atrocity that has happened on his watch, including charlottesville...

Tell me again, how is THIS the big issue?


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: B0B on Sep 26, 2017, 04:27AM
And speaking of disrespecting the flag at sporting events... One of the sports Trump held up as an example. Kinda the antithesis of patriotic to hold up the flag of a country that said, screw the USA, we want our own country! Especially, when one of them is saying that the south will rise again.

(https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/nr3ZbKzaPaVdE-obvvBpVOgduJs=/0x0:4146x2764/1200x800/filters:focal(0x0:4146x2764)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/47147974/GettyImages-487150260.0.jpg)


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Baron von Bone on Sep 26, 2017, 04:53AM
Strawman. That's not what they are protesting.

I see that dog all over again (I love dogs too ... hate to see them so dishonored like this).
 
Let me guess ... it hasn't improved since the first comically self-appeasing, blatantly reason-defying sentiments ... eh?
 
Yet that plainly contrarian and anti-rational, anti-social, anti-conversational posting that's killed any actual discussion that may have been happening (granted, if any) has been lavished with attention and has set the tone of the social climate for multiple pages, and the comically "miscalibrated" rulers are out.
 
 ...
 
I know I know ... seems supernatural (definitely not magic though--that's a completely different mechanism). How do I repeatedly make such strikingly accurate predictions like this!?
 
Heh.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Russ White on Sep 26, 2017, 05:16AM
All of you bloviating about "Respect" need to go back amd read, and actually make an effort to understand, the letter from Jim Wright, the Navy veteran, I posted earlier. Here it is again........

https://www.attn.com/stories/11050/military-veteran-stands-colin-kaepernick?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=direct-share&utm_campaign=shares

"The very first thing I learned in the military is this: Respect is a two-way street. If you want respect, true respect, sincere respect, then you have to GIVE IT.

"If you want respect, you have to do the things necessary to earn it each and every single day. There are no short cuts and no exceptions.
"Respect cannot be compelled.
"Respect cannot be bought.
"Respect cannot be inherited...Respect has to be earned.
"Respect. Has. To. Be. Earned."
"Now, any veteran worth the label should know that. If they don't, then likely they weren't much of a soldier to begin with and you can tell them I said so."

BINGO!

"If America wants the world's respect, it must be worthy of respect.
"America must be worthy of respect. Torture, rendition, indefinite detention, unarmed black men shot down in the street every day, poverty, inequality, voter suppression, racism, bigotry in every form, obstructionism, blind patriotism, NONE of those things are worthy of respect from anybody -- least of all an American."

"To you the National Anthem means one thing, to Kaepernick it means something else. We are all shaped and defined by our experiences and we see the world through our own eyes. That's freedom. That's liberty. The right to believe differently. The right to protest as you will. The right to demand better. The right to believe your country can BE better, that it can live up to its sacred ideals, and the right to loudly note that it has NOT. The right to use your voice, your actions, to bring attention to the things you believe in. The right to want more for others, freedom, liberty, justice, equality, and RESPECT.
"A true veteran might not agree with Colin Kaepernick, but a true veteran would fight to the death to protect his right to say what he believes.
"You don't like what Kaepernick has to say? Then prove him wrong, BE the nation he can respect.
"It's really just that simple."

Yes, it really is that simple. At least, it ought to be. Hard to believe so many simple minded folks have so much trouble getting it.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Stan on Sep 26, 2017, 05:50AM
Bait and Switch, people.  Americans have the right to choose not stand up during the national anthem.

Why are you letting a race- and class-baiting jerk make this into an Us vs. Them argument?  The only real "Them" are Confederates and Nazis, both of whom are definitionally not American. 

Don't get baited into Trump doublespeak Us vs. Them rhetoric.  Don't form a tribe.  America is your tribe, and we all have the privilege of criticizing it.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Baron von Bone on Sep 26, 2017, 06:04AM
All of you bloviating about "Respect" need to go back amd read, and actually make an effort to understand, the letter from Jim Wright, the Navy veteran, I posted earlier. Here it is again........
 
https://www.attn.com/stories/11050/military-veteran-stands-colin-kaepernick?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=direct-share&utm_campaign=shares
 
"The very first thing I learned in the military is this: Respect is a two-way street. If you want respect, true respect, sincere respect, then you have to GIVE IT.
 
"If you want respect, you have to do the things necessary to earn it each and every single day. There are no short cuts and no exceptions.
"Respect cannot be compelled.
"Respect cannot be bought.
"Respect cannot be inherited...Respect has to be earned.
"Respect. Has. To. Be. Earned."
"Now, any veteran worth the label should know that. If they don't, then likely they weren't much of a soldier to begin with and you can tell them I said so."
 
BINGO!
It seems a lot of vets fairly quickly forget these kinds of social realities when they leave the environment in which their function is so clear and prominent and overtly consequential. The military teaches (imposes really) good neighbor behaviors in a lot of ways, but if troops come into the military disinclined and they're also not inclined to learn and grow and develop and to improve themselves, they quickly forget these lessons. It's the same with self-discipline. The lack of personal self-discipline in the military (the "self"-discipline that had to be so invasively imposed upon so many, even in that environment, and the way those troops reacted, was a striking demonstration for me).
 
"If America wants the world's respect, it must be worthy of respect.
"America must be worthy of respect. Torture, rendition, indefinite detention, unarmed black men shot down in the street every day, poverty, inequality, voter suppression, racism, bigotry in every form, obstructionism, blind patriotism, NONE of those things are worthy of respect from anybody -- least of all an American."
 
"To you the National Anthem means one thing, to Kaepernick it means something else. We are all shaped and defined by our experiences and we see the world through our own eyes. That's freedom. That's liberty. The right to believe differently. The right to protest as you will. The right to demand better. The right to believe your country can BE better, that it can live up to its sacred ideals, and the right to loudly note that it has NOT. The right to use your voice, your actions, to bring attention to the things you believe in. The right to want more for others, freedom, liberty, justice, equality, and RESPECT.
"A true veteran might not agree with Colin Kaepernick, but a true veteran would fight to the death to protect his right to say what he believes.
"You don't like what Kaepernick has to say? Then prove him wrong, BE the nation he can respect.
"It's really just that simple."
 
Yes, it really is that simple. At least, it ought to be. Hard to believe so many simple minded folks have so much trouble getting it.
It's largely a "righteous mind" issue--the notion that how I/we/the Home Team thinks society should be is somehow what is on an underlying level, and the fact that it's not actually that way means it needs to be imposed upon everyone.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Baron von Bone on Sep 26, 2017, 06:18AM
Bait and Switch, people.  Americans have the right to choose not stand up during the national anthem.
 
Why are you letting a race- and class-baiting jerk make this into an Us vs. Them argument?  The only real "Them" are Confederates and Nazis, both of whom are definitionally not American. 
 
Don't get baited into Trump doublespeak Us vs. Them rhetoric.  Don't form a tribe.  America is your tribe, and we all have the privilege of criticizing it.

Yes!
 
We need to be aware that the "tribes" are ultimately within each and every one of us--it's about which wolves we feed and all that--whether we as individuals and groups do the necessary work to internally foster the Better Angels of Human Nature, or if we choose instead to appease and affirm the Dark Side of Human Nature. In a better world the species would be our tribe ... and we'd accept the responsibility our relative intelligence imposes upon us regarding the biosphere upon which we're so dependent, along with all other terrestrial species to varying degree--pretty much all of which are less dependent than we are, being that we're at the top of this food chain (i.e. we'd accept our natural responsibility and wouldn't behave so much less intelligent than we are).
 
Awareness of all these things is key--at least to the extent that ideology competes with our natural level of agreeableness and cooperation as members of a very smart, very social species. Without awareness we're just so many bulls cruising around so many china shops, with most of the least aware and destructive (Dunning-Kruger Effect) presuming they're cruising around rightly (righteously) and that everyone else needs to be doing it their way. That's where the tribe thing comes in most imposingly--the effort required to affirm this righteous thinking--the (social) war effort.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: ddickerson on Sep 26, 2017, 06:52AM
Bottomline is the the leadership of the NFL screwed the pooch. They should have enforced their rules and be done with it.

There are rules in the NFL's operational manual which is different than the NFL's rule book. In the operational manual, it outlines what can and cannot be done on the field.

Players must be on the field for the anthem, and they must stand at attention, holding their helmet on their left side.

The specific rule to the national anthem can be found on page A62-63 of the leagues's Game Operations Manual.

Fines and suspension may be dealt with offenders of this rule.

Well, the key word is "MAY". The NFL has chosen since last year to ignore this rule, even though they chose not to allow the Dallas Cowboys to wear a decal for two games honoring the five police officers that were killed by BLM thugs.

It's all about choices. The NFL chose to enforce one rule that honored our fallen police officers while ignoring these protests to honor the BLM thugs.

IOW, they screwed the pooch.



Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Baron von Bone on Sep 26, 2017, 07:29AM
Whatever apologetic acrobatics and cognitive contortions work to bring the Sherman's bow tie of "reasoning" around, eventually, to the pre-determined "conclusion".
 
That's how human brains work, which is why we have to impose processes on them that intervene and mitigate these natural inclinations. Most of us are aware of this because with any at all significant degree of self-awareness it's impossible not to be aware of it, but many still manage the levels of self-oblivion required, and intentionally lose this internal struggle. Few are so entirely irresponsible about it, though probably each and every one of us can do better. It's about inclinations--are we more inclined to favor responsibility and taking honesty seriously, or are we more inclined toward self-affirmation and the illusion of certainty--ideological comfort?
 
The favored inclinations are often quite obvious to those who are far more into the former than the latter.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: B0B on Sep 26, 2017, 07:43AM
Bottomline is the the leadership of the NFL screwed the pooch. They should have enforced their rules and be done with it.

There are rules in the NFL's operational manual which is different than the NFL's rule book. In the operational manual, it outlines what can and cannot be done on the field.

Players must be on the field for the anthem, and they must stand at attention, holding their helmet on their left side.

The specific rule to the national anthem can be found on page A62-63 of the leagues's Game Operations Manual.

Fines and suspension may be dealt with offenders of this rule.

Well, the key word is "MAY". The NFL has chosen since last year to ignore this rule, even though they chose not to allow the Dallas Cowboys to wear a decal for two games honoring the five police officers that were killed by BLM thugs.

It's all about choices. The NFL chose to enforce one rule that honored our fallen police officers while ignoring these protests to honor the BLM thugs.

IOW, they screwed the pooch.

So what you are saying is that this is an internal NFL rule, and that is all. How and whether they choose to enforce it is up to them.  Their rule, their responsibility. And yes, Kaepernick has paid consequences for his actions. Otherwise, politics have no place.

I agree.

Trump and the republicans should stay out.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Ellrod on Sep 26, 2017, 07:50AM
Dotard J Trump wraps himself in the flag, starts trolling, and y'all fall for it.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: ddickerson on Sep 26, 2017, 07:57AM
So what you are saying is that this is an internal NFL rule, and that is all. How and whether they choose to enforce it is up to them.  Their rule, their responsibility. And yes, Kaepernick has paid consequences for his actions. Otherwise, politics have no place.

I agree.

Trump and the republicans should stay out.

Sure. It's my party and I'll cry if I want to.

Actually, the smart play would be to respect the people who buy tickets to watch you play.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: BGuttman on Sep 26, 2017, 08:11AM
Actually, Dickerson, you are wrong.  This article says the NFL rule book does not specify what players do during the Anthem.  Total article:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/25/us/nfl-national-anthem-trump-kaepernick-history-trnd/index.html

Quote
In the "2017 Official Playing Rules of the National Football League," there are no specific directives for what players should do during the national anthem. In fact, neither the anthem nor the flag are ever mentioned.

Also with your comment about the decals:

Quote
Under Article 8, Section 4, titled "Equipment, Uniforms and Player Appearance," it says:

Throughout the period on game-day that a player is visible to the stadium and television audience (including in pregame warm-ups, in the bench area, and during postgame interviews in the locker room or on the field), players are prohibited from wearing, displaying, or otherwise conveying personal messages either in writing or illustration, unless such message has been approved in advance by the League office.

Incidentally, the use of the National Anthem at the start of sporting events is mostly post World War II.  Prior to that you had to hire a band and it was reserved for special occasions.  First time was not at the start, but at the 7th Inning Stretch in the 1917 World Series (note: it wasn't the National Anthem then).

Incidentally, we won't be hearing any more from Ronkny since this topic is now in Purely Politics.  If he sends me any messages worthy of transferring I'll be happy to quote them.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: MikeBMiller on Sep 26, 2017, 08:18AM
Sorry. 37%. My post was mostly correct.  Is it important that itís less than half? To you?

I generally stay out of the political fights, but a bit of fact-checking is in order here. According to this article, only 8.5% of MLB players are African-American.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jimmie-lee-solomon/african-american-baseball-players_b_4923689.html
 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jimmie-lee-solomon/african-american-baseball-players_b_4923689.html)
The majority of black players in MLB are from the Caribbean.

https://sabr.org/bioproj/topic/baseball-demographics-1947-2012 (https://sabr.org/bioproj/topic/baseball-demographics-1947-2012)



Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: ddickerson on Sep 26, 2017, 08:28AM
Actually, Dickerson, you are wrong.  This article says the NFL rule book does not specify what players do during the Anthem.  Total article:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/25/us/nfl-national-anthem-trump-kaepernick-history-trnd/index.html

Also with your comment about the decals:

Incidentally, the use of the National Anthem at the start of sporting events is mostly post World War II.  Prior to that you had to hire a band and it was reserved for special occasions.  First time was not at the start, but at the 7th Inning Stretch in the 1917 World Series (note: it wasn't the National Anthem then).

Incidentally, we won't be hearing any more from Ronkny since this topic is now in Purely Politics.  If he sends me any messages worthy of transferring I'll be happy to quote them.


Its in the NFL's opational manual. I stated that in my post. I shouldn't have to repeat.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: B0B on Sep 26, 2017, 08:29AM
Sure. It's my party and I'll cry if I want to.

Actually, the smart play would be to respect the people who buy tickets to watch you play.
Nah, Trump just wants a distraction.

Most of his top advisors were just caught conducting government work with a private email - you know, the think he said Clinton should be locked up for.

His attempts to intimidate Korea are backfiring, and Korea just beat him in the war of words.

His healthcare attempts are about to fail for the third time.

His tax talk is empty and has no real chance of passing.

His wall is faltering.

His muslim ban... well, now he's having to argue it isn't a muslim ban.

He just got rejected by sports teams he was hoping to "honor".

And the special investigator is cranking up the pressure hard on Russia investigations.


In short: It's no party, it's a distraction... and a blatantly racist one at that.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Baron von Bone on Sep 26, 2017, 08:29AM
I generally stay out of the political fights, but a bit of fact-checking is in order here. According to this article, only 8.5% of MLB players are African-American.
 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jimmie-lee-solomon/african-american-baseball-players_b_4923689.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jimmie-lee-solomon/african-american-baseball-players_b_4923689.html)
The majority of black players in MLB are from the Caribbean.
 
https://sabr.org/bioproj/topic/baseball-demographics-1947-2012 (https://sabr.org/bioproj/topic/baseball-demographics-1947-2012)

Oh comeonnow!
 
If that's true why don't we hear Bob Marley music all the time at the games?


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: ddickerson on Sep 26, 2017, 08:32AM
Nah, Trump just wants a distraction.

Most of his top advisors were just caught conducting government work with a private email - you know, the think he said Clinton should be locked up for.

His attempts to intimidate Korea are backfiring, and Korea just beat him in the war of words.

His healthcare attempts are about to fail for the third time.

His tax talk is empty and has no real chance of passing.

His wall is faltering.

His muslim ban... well, now he's having to argue it isn't a muslim ban.

And the special investigator is cranking up the pressure hard on Russia investigations.


In short: It's no party, it's a distraction... and a blatantly racist one at that.

So you think it's smart to disrespect the people buying the tickets?

Wrong.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Burgerbob on Sep 26, 2017, 08:43AM
So you think it's smart to disrespect the people buying the tickets?

Wrong.

Ahh yes, Lord Business says we should not protest because fewer tickets will sell. Of course!


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Andrew Meronek on Sep 26, 2017, 08:49AM
So you think it's smart to disrespect the people buying the tickets?

Wrong.

Do you find kneeling with one's head bowed to be disrespectful? Even football players pretty much everywhere would find that attitude odd, given that kneeling for prayer before a game has been pretty common. To me, standing at attention and kneeling with bowed head are both respectful.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: ddickerson on Sep 26, 2017, 08:53AM
Its in the NFL's opational manual. I stated that in my post. I shouldn't have to repeat.

Bruce, google NFL operational manual.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: BGuttman on Sep 26, 2017, 09:13AM
An Operations Manual contains a set of behaviors generally to be followed.  It does not carry the force of law.

The operations rules (posted on all gasoline pumps) prohibits smoking while pumping gas.  Have you ever seen a cop give somebody a ticket or arresting them for smoking while pumping gas?  I haven't.  It still isn't a good idea to smoke a cigarette while pumping gas unless you like getting your hair burnt off if a puff of gas vapor comes out of the tank.

The players got permission from the owners to lock arms in opposition to the Trump tirade.  Others got permission to stay in the locker room (as was customary until 2009).  The Seahawk who came out was engaging in a protest of his own (against the protest).  It's his right and privilege.

Personally, I think what is happening to Kaepernik is disgraceful.  He's too talented to leave out of the stadium (let alone on the sidelines).  I wish some team would pick him up.  He's a lot more honorable a player than the late Aaron Hernandez (who was convicted of murder and committed suicide in his cell).


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Greg Waits on Sep 26, 2017, 09:54AM
I think one reason many white people are upset about the kneeling peaceful protest is because they know exactly what the issue is really about, and it makes them uncomfortable. And rather than confront the obvious elephant in the room (that being a serious lack of equal treatment of minorities under the law), they instead wrap their outrage in politics.

I have ZERO problem with this form of protest.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: robcat2075 on Sep 26, 2017, 10:10AM
Oh dear, the poor ticket buyers' feelings!

I wonder how much of the ticket price is for the National Anthem?

If the National Anthem were an a la carte option I wonder how many would spend even an extra dime for it?





Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: fsgazda on Sep 26, 2017, 10:13AM
Black on Black Crime.  Code word for "those animals kill each other, so what's the big deal".  

According to the FBI 82% of white homicide victims are killed by other white people.  Why aren't you talking about white on white crime?

Assassination of 5 police officers by BLM.  They were killed by an Army reserve vet.  "Johnson stated that he had acted alone and was not part of any group".  "Investigators found no ties between Johnson and international terrorist or domestic extremist groups."

Thugs.  Code word for N*****.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: ddickerson on Sep 26, 2017, 10:20AM
Black on Black Crime.  Code word for "those animals kill each other, so what's the big deal".  

According to the FBI 82% of white homicide victims are killed by other white people.  Why aren't you talking about white on white crime?

Assassination of 5 police officers by BLM.  They were killed by an Army reserve vet.  "Johnson stated that he had acted alone and was not part of any group".  "Investigators found no ties between Johnson and international terrorist or domestic extremist groups."

Thugs.  Code word for N*****.

When you have to change the meaning of words to fit your view of the world, it proves how wrong your view is.



Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Dan Hine on Sep 26, 2017, 10:25AM
  He's a lot more honorable a player than the late Aaron Hernandez (who was convicted of murder and committed suicide in his cell).

And has been diagnosed with CTE.  NO, that does not justify his actions.  No No No.  But, CTE research suggests it creates and/or exacerbates behavioral disorders.  


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: BGuttman on Sep 26, 2017, 10:26AM
A guy who is a member of BLM kills a police officer and BLM kills police officers.

A guy who is a member of the Alt-Right kills someone and that person is not affiliated with Alt-Right.

Yeah.

Sure.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: robcat2075 on Sep 26, 2017, 10:27AM
Honestly, I always felt that playing the National Anthem at professional sport games was nothing more than a patently cynical ploy for approval by some rich people who just screwed you out of $100+ to watch... a game.

Sacred institution? Next joke, please.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Greg Waits on Sep 26, 2017, 10:31AM
A guy who is a member of BLM kills a police officer and BLM kills police officers.

A guy who is a member of the Alt-Right kills someone and that person is not affiliated with Alt-Right.

Yeah.

Sure.

DD logic in action


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Dan Hine on Sep 26, 2017, 10:31AM
I think one reason many white people are upset about the kneeling peaceful protest is because they know exactly what the issue is really about, and it makes them uncomfortable. And rather than confront the obvious elephant in the room (that being a serious lack of equal treatment of minorities under the law), they instead wrap their outrage in politics.


To an extent, yes.  IMO, it's a mindset issue which plays a part in the fact that we find comfort in conflict.  I'd recommend watching this Ted Talk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyhOT3jCcR4) by Jim Farrell.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: BGuttman on Sep 26, 2017, 10:34AM
It was originally intended as a way to boost morale during wartime.  Then it suddenly became a way to fight the Cold War (we're not Commies - we have Freedom (TM) ).

For some reason, Veterans seem to have taken respect for the Flag and the National Anthem as respect for them (and the lack of same).  I personally respect Veterans more than the Flag or the National Anthem.  Too many charlatans wrap themselves in the Flag and quote the National Anthem to justify immoral acts.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Baron von Bone on Sep 26, 2017, 10:34AM
When you have to change the meaning of words to fit your view of the world, it proves how wrong your view is.

Even with all of the corrections and demonstrations that this is far more his issue than it is for those of us who do have the means and inclination to be careful about this basic aspect of human brain ownership, he can still freely and without even the slightest hint of self-awareness or the restraint that it would impose, project this onto any and all who don't accept his own reframing of words and terms and concepts.
 
Self-awareness so amazingly absent can be dangerous.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: B0B on Sep 26, 2017, 10:36AM
When you have to change the meaning of words to fit your view of the world, it proves how wrong your view is.
Nah, just reflects the coded speech of the right, where being called a racist is actually perceived worse than BEING a racist.


So you think it's smart to disrespect the people buying the tickets?

Wrong.
I think that's a private business decision between those people and the business offering the tickets. Politics have no role at all.

I do find it interesting how kneeing suddenly becomes disrespectful to the troops, to the flag, to the country, then to the public, then to the people watching the game (who either don't see it at home because they show commercials during that time, or who are often disregarding the anthem themselves in the stadium), to whomever... If you can't say who they are actually disrespecting and have some consistency there... it's because you are making up the issue to begin with.

Which is what trump did.

A black basketball player rejected him, so he threw a tantrum and tried to reject them back. That made bad headlines for him, so he then tried to say how a team of white hockey players DID accept his invitation, but no one cared. They were still talking about the BBall team rejecting him. So he played on last year's controversy of a black man kneeing in protest, and then held high the white rednecks of nascar who backed him.

It's a made up controversy to distract from Trump's failings.

One in which he attacks primarily black players in two sports, while holding up with athletes in two others.

Again, how is that not racist? Or exactly what the kneeing is protesting against?


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Greg Waits on Sep 26, 2017, 10:39AM
I am a veteran - albeit not one who served in combat. I don't feel the least bit slighted by the protests.



Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Greg Waits on Sep 26, 2017, 10:43AM
This from a veteran I know.

"I didn't serve for a song or a flag. I served for a country. Anything can symbolize a country. America has many symbols: the Statue of Liberty, the monuments in Washington DC, monuments to veterans to freedom, freedom of religion. There are so many. Why are people angry about a song?

What they should be angry about is how Trump stands up for what is not a symbol of America: the Nazi party white supremacist and its bigotry and hate.

Trump is everything America is not.

The people who are outraged with those who won't stand for a song should be more outraged with Trump"


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Baron von Bone on Sep 26, 2017, 11:21AM
I am a veteran - albeit not one who served in combat. I don't feel the least bit slighted by the protests.

I'll second that, wholeheartedly.
 
In fact if I find any offense it's with those who hope to influence others in a way that dissuades them from practicing their civil liberties. It's an effort to counteract what we and all other vets and troops served to protect, and it's not appreciated. I don't think much of it in general though--just humans being humans, and a lot of humans just don't think very functionally.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: djdekok on Sep 26, 2017, 11:28AM
Honestly, I always felt that playing the National Anthem at professional sport games was nothing more than a patently cynical ploy for approval by some rich people who just screwed you out of $100+ to watch... a game.

Sacred institution? Next joke, please.

Tickets weren't always so expensive. 
Further, I'd be curious to know when the practice of singing the "Star-Spangled Banner" at the commencement of professional sporting events first appears in the history books. It's stated previously in this thread that "The Star-Spangled Banner" wasn't officially the national anthem of the USA until 1931.  Professional baseball had been on the scene for quite a while, The NFL was in its infancy, and I can't speak to the other sports.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: BGuttman on Sep 26, 2017, 11:45AM
Tickets weren't always so expensive. 
Further, I'd be curious to know when the practice of singing the "Star-Spangled Banner" at the commencement of professional sporting events first appears in the history books. It's stated previously in this thread that "The Star-Spangled Banner" wasn't officially the national anthem of the USA until 1931.  Professional baseball had been on the scene for quite a while, The NFL was in its infancy, and I can't speak to the other sports.

The article I cited above has the information you are looking for.

Apparently the use of SSB at the start of every sporting event dates back to the point at which you didn't need to hire a band because you could use  a pre-recorded version (after World War II).  This would coincide with the anti-Communist fervor of the McCarthy Era.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: B0B on Sep 26, 2017, 11:47AM
Tickets weren't always so expensive. 
Further, I'd be curious to know when the practice of singing the "Star-Spangled Banner" at the commencement of professional sporting events first appears in the history books. It's stated previously in this thread that "The Star-Spangled Banner" wasn't officially the national anthem of the USA until 1931.  Professional baseball had been on the scene for quite a while, The NFL was in its infancy, and I can't speak to the other sports.

Started with baseball before it was the official anthem. When it started it was a mid game stunt, then slowly got moved to the beginning. From there... it slowly spread to others.

The last demolition derby I went to even started with the anthem. Don't think the monster truck rally did though :P

Interesting tidbit, in 2015 McCain and Flake found the military recently paid 50+ million to sports team, including 10+ million to pro sports teams, for "patriotic displays". Those include: on-field color guard, enlistment and reenlistment ceremonies, performances of the national anthem, full-field flag details, ceremonial first pitches͕ and puck drops.

https://www.sbnation.com/2015/11/4/9670302/nfl-paid-patriotism-troops-mcain-flake-report-million

Hence why this seems to have become a bigger and bigger show over the past decade... because it really has. Intentionally.

https://www.sbnation.com/2015/11/4/9670302/nfl-paid-patriotism-troops-mcain-flake-report-million

Remember... not that many years ago, the players didn't ever come out for the anthem. They were in the locker rooms getting ready.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: djdekok on Sep 26, 2017, 11:48AM
While I applaud the movement that seeks to have people from all walks of life treated equitably and fairly--and who wouldn't?--I question the true effectiveness of "the kneel". People can't agree as to what it's for or what it means, and if you disagree with one faction or another, you're proclaimed a fascist or a bigot or just plain stupid. The scab continues to get picked at, and no healing can take place. It reminds me a little of that movement of the early 1980's "Hands across America".  A well-advertised/sung about/documented in popular media (Cliff and Norm from "Cheers" participated in HAA in one of the episodes of the show) social happening, but what came of it? Just another social justice flavor of the month.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: BGuttman on Sep 26, 2017, 11:53AM
While I applaud the movement that seeks to have people from all walks of life treated equitably and fairly--and who wouldn't?--I question the true effectiveness of "the kneel". People can't agree as to what it's for or what it means, and if you disagree with one faction or another, you're proclaimed a fascist or a bigot or just plain stupid. The scab continues to get picked at, and no healing can take place. It reminds me a little of that movement of the early 1980's "Hands across America".  A well-advertised/sung about/documented in popular media (Cliff and Norm from "Cheers" participated in HAA in one of the episodes of the show) social happening, but what came of it? Just another social justice flavor of the month.

It's not going to get fixed until we ALL decide that everybody deserves to be treated fairly; even those that don't look like us or those that don't agree with us.  Unfortunately, that's not the case now.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: B0B on Sep 26, 2017, 11:54AM
People can't agree as to what it's for or what it means, and if you disagree with one faction or another, you're proclaimed a fascist or a bigot or just plain stupid.
I wish I could agree.

Honestly, this isn't as aspect of "agreement". The people protesting have clearly stated what they are doing and why. That really isn't up for question or disagreement for what it's about. Like it or not, sure. But why they are doing so? No.

The disagreement aspect is an intentional effort to muddy the waters and try to make it something it isn't.

And given that the protest is about the unequal treatment of people of different races, specifically blacks still being subjugated by white authority in many places, yeah... white people intentionally muddying that over and trying to take offensive to the protest is bigoted.

But as noted earlier, being bigoted these days is not such a crime as being CALLED a bigot. So even the titles are danced around, while the intentional efforts to distract and deny continue.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: djdekok on Sep 26, 2017, 12:02PM
I wish I could agree.

Honestly, this isn't as aspect of "agreement". The people protesting have clearly stated what they are doing and why.

The disagreement aspect is an intentional effort to muddy the waters and try to make it something it isn't.

And given that the protest is about the unequal treatment of people of different races, specifically blacks still being subjugated by white authority in many places, yeah... white people intentionally muddying that over and trying to take offensive to the protest is bigoted.

But as noted earlier, being bigoted these days is not such a crime as being CALLED a bigot. So even the titles are danced around, while the intentional efforts to distract and deny continue.

But when these words are thrown carelessly about--racist/sexist/homophobe/fascist/etc.--by so MANY (on both sides), they create an impenetrable, impervious wall around the user, and any attempt to come to an understanding (if not agreement or grudging acceptance) is futile. In the words of one commentator, "words MEAN things". I'll give you an example.  When I taught in the School District of Philadelphia, African-American students used the n-word in referring to each other. I wouldn't dream of using it and neither would any right-thinking mature adult individual.  Yet when we attempted to write up said students for using that word, they'd invariably try to explain it away as, "well, I said n---ah (plural n----z), not n----r" as if that made a difference.  In many of their minds, it became a way to separate themselves from others--and it was remarkably effective.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: fsgazda on Sep 26, 2017, 12:18PM
Quote
A guy who is a member of BLM kills a police officer and BLM kills police officers.

A guy who is a member of the Alt-Right kills someone and that person is not affiliated with Alt-Right.

Yeah.

Sure.


Just to clarify, the guy who killed the cops specifically stated that he was acting alone, and investigators found no evidence that he was a member of any organization.  He was a mentally ill army reserve vet who served in Afghanistan.

And to DD.  They are used as code words to provide plausible deniability.  How do you feel about white on white crime?



Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Greg Waits on Sep 26, 2017, 12:30PM

Just to clarify, the guy who killed the cops specifically stated that he was acting alone, and investigators found no evidence that he was a member of any organization.  He was a mentally ill army reserve vet who served in Afghanistan.

Pesky facts don't matter to those who already have their minds made up.

And to DD.  They are used as code words to provide plausible deniability.  How do you feel about white on white crime?


Yep


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Russ White on Sep 26, 2017, 01:17PM
Another guy who gets it. And, a Texan to boot...........

https://www.yahoo.com/news/texas-sports-anchor-dale-hansen-162028451.html


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: robcat2075 on Sep 26, 2017, 01:19PM
While I applaud the movement that seeks to have people from all walks of life treated equitably and fairly--and who wouldn't?--I question the true effectiveness of "the kneel".

But what would be effective?  What could they do, as Joe citizen who just happens to be an NFL player, without a big chunk of people complaining that they shouldn't be speaking up?

What would that thing be?


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Bruce the budgie on Sep 26, 2017, 01:21PM
I am a veteran

So am I. My job wasn't hurting people, but we fired the odd shot here and there, while not swattin flies or swapping lies. In those days a lot of GI's were draftees, and the attitudes reflected that. On Stateside posts, getting caught outdoors when Retreat started to sound meant stopping whatever you were doing, standing at parade rest until the evening gun went off, coming to attention and rendering a hand salute until the last note of To the Color had sounded. Many of us made it our business to be indoors at that time. See Ray Bradbury's short story, "The Anthem Sprinters."

It had nothing to do with BLM, but was more of an FTA, DGAF thing. In the words of Arlo Guthrie, I'm not proud... or tired. I am definitely not offended by athletes taking a knee for the anthem. I am, however, mildly annoyed by the tone-deaf renderings of some singers they hire for the job (nail the notes the way you're paid to do, for crying out loud) or the over-the-top melisma of others who think they are Whitney Houston. The quality of ballgame anthem singers is a symptom of the musical dumbing-down of the USA. Too many folks consider music as something to be packaged and purchased, instead of done by real people because they can, and because they can sound decent while doing it. Get off my lawn, you darn kids!

I am deeply offended, even mildly enraged, that this teapot-sized tempest, stirred up by a wannabe tin-pot dictator and his cognitively challenged minions, is using up any oxygen at all. Sorry I spent so many words on it, glad to get it off my chest.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: B0B on Sep 26, 2017, 01:26PM
But when these words are thrown carelessly about--racist/sexist/homophobe/fascist/etc.--by so MANY (on both sides), they create an impenetrable, impervious wall around the user, and any attempt to come to an understanding (if not agreement or grudging acceptance) is futile. In the words of one commentator, "words MEAN things".

I could see that.... IF there was ever a flip side of the argument to shut the discussions down from the seemingly racist white side.

That's a disrespectful and horrible way to protest! Well, how should they protest? Silence.

This is the inappropriate time to protest! Well, when is the appropriate time? Silence.

Trump's not a white supremacist! No, he just supports them and their causes while attacking black guys and their causes... How is that not being a white supremacist? Silence.

And so it goes. For those who have complained about the protest in this thread, none have offered an alternative other than "DON'T!"


I taught too.

And yeah, word are words and they have meaning.... but there's often a greater hesitancy behind the concept than the word. My example: I taught k-12.

Elementary School... if you asked them what a period is, they would say the thing at the end of a sentence.
High school... if you asked them what a period is, the girls might shout out that it was monthly bleeding from their uterus.
But middle school... ask what a period is, and there's likely to be awkward silence.

And doesn't matter what you call it... cycle, period, flow... any direct name will be greeted with discomfort. The only ones they would say aloud were the most vague... "female issues" and the like. And even those often don't come easy.

The difference comes, that elementary kids... it has no real relevance. If they know, it will be loud and unashamed, if not... oh well. High school girls start to really get defined by it. Not only is it a monthly issue to deal with, but also comes with other aspects of puberty and change. And as it starts to play a more defining role, and becomes more familiar, they get more comfortable.

But middle schoolers... they may have heard about it, but it's new... it's uncomfortable... it's unfamiliar... and they really may not know how to deal with it yet. So they hide.


Which is pretty much our race relations in a messed up pair of pants.

Minorities are defined by being a minority. Blacks know they are black. It is a present and defining part of their life and something that in current US society, they grow up being conscious of.

Whites... live in a white world. They don't think of race for themselves. Race is something OTHERS have. A friend might be described as a black friend if they are black, but a white friend is just a friend. Whereas... yeah, for black folk? you hear it in how they great each other. As you note: "what up my n-----?"


Now, whites and black are still very segregated today, and that is on both sides, but with the balance firmly on the white side per power... it does cause some major discrepancies. Which... white people living in a white world often like to talk about as much as a middle schooler getting her first period and going home from school with bloody pants.

No matter what you call that... it's embarrassing. There's a whole mix of emotions and uncertainly. And while blacks have a lot to gain, whites don't. They stand to lose places of privilege, better prosperity, the comfort of being white in a white world where white just means jokes about tanning and sunburns. There is very intentional effort to avoid having these discussions and avoid integrations... even basics like affirmative action? How long was that popular?

Whatever you want to call it, it's still the underlying racism and ultimately the engrained comfort with that racist inequality that is the core of the matter.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Baron von Bone on Sep 26, 2017, 01:54PM
I am deeply offended, even mildly enraged, that this teapot-sized tempest, stirred up by a wannabe tin-pot dictator and his cognitively challenged minions, is using up any oxygen at all. Sorry I spent so many words on it, glad to get it off my chest.

These days it seems that's pretty near always The Real Issueô though, eh?


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Radar on Sep 26, 2017, 02:00PM
It was originally intended as a way to boost morale during wartime.  Then it suddenly became a way to fight the Cold War (we're not Commies - we have Freedom (TM) ).

For some reason, Veterans seem to have taken respect for the Flag and the National Anthem as respect for them (and the lack of same).  I personally respect Veterans more than the Flag or the National Anthem.  Too many charlatans wrap themselves in the Flag and quote the National Anthem to justify immoral acts.
The Flag and National Anthem in themselves are only symbols of a unified nation.  They represent the country and it's the military's job to defend the Country, and the constitution.  If you disrespect the flag, or don't render honors during the national anthem you are disrespecting the country that they stand for.  I can see why many veterans take it as a personal knock on them. You can't separate disrespect for the symbol for disrespect for what it represents, and those who hold it in high esteem.  I understand what they are protesting, I even agree with them and support their quest for equal treatment for all.  The people doing this act of protest by kneeling during the anthem, I'm sure realize they are offending a large number of their fans.  If you do something in protest knowing the outcome you shouldn't be upset when it actually happens.  


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: B0B on Sep 26, 2017, 02:19PM
The Flag and National Anthem in themselves are only symbols of a unified nation.  They represent the country and it's the military's job to defend the Country, and the constitution.  If you disrespect the flag, or don't render honors during the national anthem you are disrespecting the country that they stand for.  I can see why many veterans take it as a personal knock on them.
By that token, shouldn't they also get upset by the continuing sales of concession stands at games during that time? Or the general apathy of the crowd that sits and talks or tries to hunt down a seat? What about the usage of the flag and country itself as advertising and promotion rather than actually a moment about country? The entire occurrence itself before a sporting event is hokey and contrived... a marketable rah-rah.

So then, why this?

With all of the current apathy or disrespect, shoot, even the crass commercialization of starting sports with the anthem...

Why be able to casually brush off so much, but one fellow or a few fellows quietly kneeling... THAT'S A GREAT INSULT! TEHY SHOULD BE FIRED AT ONCE!

Honestly, that seems the hardest part to believe.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Russ White on Sep 26, 2017, 02:36PM
I could see that.... IF there was ever a flip side of the argument to shut the discussions down from the seemingly racist white side.

That's a disrespectful and horrible way to protest! Well, how should they protest? Silence.

This is the inappropriate time to protest! Well, when is the appropriate time? Silence.

Trump's not a white supremacist! No, he just supports them and their causes while attacking black guys and their causes... How is that not being a white supremacist? Silence.

And so it goes. For those who have complained about the protest in this thread, none have offered an alternative other than "DON'T!"


I taught too.

And yeah, word are words and they have meaning.... but there's often a greater hesitancy behind the concept than the word. My example: I taught k-12.

Elementary School... if you asked them what a period is, they would say the thing at the end of a sentence.
High school... if you asked them what a period is, the girls might shout out that it was monthly bleeding from their uterus.
But middle school... ask what a period is, and there's likely to be awkward silence.

And doesn't matter what you call it... cycle, period, flow... any direct name will be greeted with discomfort. The only ones they would say aloud were the most vague... "female issues" and the like. And even those often don't come easy.

The difference comes, that elementary kids... it has no real relevance. If they know, it will be loud and unashamed, if not... oh well. High school girls start to really get defined by it. Not only is it a monthly issue to deal with, but also comes with other aspects of puberty and change. And as it starts to play a more defining role, and becomes more familiar, they get more comfortable.

But middle schoolers... they may have heard about it, but it's new... it's uncomfortable... it's unfamiliar... and they really may not know how to deal with it yet. So they hide.


Which is pretty much our race relations in a messed up pair of pants.

Minorities are defined by being a minority. Blacks know they are black. It is a present and defining part of their life and something that in current US society, they grow up being conscious of.

Whites... live in a white world. They don't think of race for themselves. Race is something OTHERS have. A friend might be described as a black friend if they are black, but a white friend is just a friend. Whereas... yeah, for black folk? you hear it in how they great each other. As you note: "what up my n-----?"


Now, whites and black are still very segregated today, and that is on both sides, but with the balance firmly on the white side per power... it does cause some major discrepancies. Which... white people living in a white world often like to talk about as much as a middle schooler getting her first period and going home from school with bloody pants.

No matter what you call that... it's embarrassing. There's a whole mix of emotions and uncertainly. And while blacks have a lot to gain, whites don't. They stand to lose places of privilege, better prosperity, the comfort of being white in a white world where white just means jokes about tanning and sunburns. There is very intentional effort to avoid having these discussions and avoid integrations... even basics like affirmative action? How long was that popular?

Whatever you want to call it, it's still the underlying racism and ultimately the engrained comfort with that racist inequality that is the core of the matter.

BRAVO! As well as I've seen it said.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Radar on Sep 26, 2017, 02:41PM
By that token, shouldn't they also get upset by the continuing sales of concession stands at games during that time? Or the general apathy of the crowd that sits and talks or tries to hunt down a seat? What about the usage of the flag and country itself as advertising and promotion rather than actually a moment about country? The entire occurrence itself before a sporting event is hokey and contrived... a marketable rah-rah.

So then, why this?

With all of the current apathy or disrespect, shoot, even the crass commercialization of starting sports with the anthem...

Why be able to casually brush off so much, but one fellow or a few fellows quietly kneeling... THAT'S A GREAT INSULT! TEHY SHOULD BE FIRED AT ONCE!

Honestly, that seems the hardest part to believe.
Honestly I don't think this is an apples to oranges comparison the examples you cite are acts of apathy, and ignorance which I do also find disturbing.  The act of taking a knee is a deliberate act of people who know they are going to offend.  Honestly I'm not overly upset myself (and I'm retired military) about this act of protest, I'm just saying that the fallout from many veterans should have been anticipated and expected.  I encourage free speech and their right to protest, I just don't think this is a productive way to get their message out there.  I see more discussion about the act of protest than I do about the reasons for the protest.  I must say this forum is an exception since there has been much discussion about the reason for the protest, that isn't the case on facebook and other social media outlets.  You can't tell a veteran that I'm going to protest the country you swore to defend, but I'm not protesting you personally it doesn't work that way for many veterans who aren't going to buy the distinction.
 


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Baron von Bone on Sep 26, 2017, 02:54PM
The Flag and National Anthem in themselves are only symbols of a unified nation.  They represent the country and it's the military's job to defend the Country, and the constitution.  If you disrespect the flag, or don't render honors during the national anthem you are disrespecting the country that they stand for.
Perhaps that would be the case for some, but to presume that's the best interpretation of the protest would be to impose the burden of doubt upon the protestors rather than its benefit, and that's not honorable either--it functions as a straw man by focusing only on the unscrupulous and ignoring the virtuous.
 
The more credible and completely respectable motive for such protests is to show respect for the principles the symbol is really about rather than to disrespect them, and thus also the symbol, by ignoring it when the agents and actors presuming to represent the principles "for which [the symbol] stands" are in fact instead dishonoring the symbol by violating them. This would include those who raise the symbol above the principles, and particularly those who do so to the extent that they pervert the symbol by using it as a deeply dishonorable inversion in which it's used as justification for mocking or even suppressing the whole point of the symbol's existence--the actual principles for which it stands.
 
I can see why many veterans take it as a personal knock on them.
I can too, but I also just explained why they're wrong, and why their attitude can actually be part and parcel of what's dishonoring the symbol they presume to be defending.
 
You can't separate disrespect for the symbol for disrespect for what it represents, and those who hold it in high esteem.
Absolutely false. This argument presumes those who hold the symbol in high esteem actually understand it and aren't using the symbol to justify their betrayal of and contempt for what it's really about.
 
I understand what they are protesting, I even agree with them and support their quest for equal treatment for all.
Then why do you feel they should violate the principles behind the symbol and approve of or ignore its misuse by those who act in contemptuous betrayal of those principles ... who even use the symbol itself as cover for doing so?
 
The people doing this act of protest by kneeling during the anthem, I'm sure realize they are offending a large number of their fans.  If you do something in protest knowing the outcome you shouldn't be upset when it actually happens.
Pretty sure that's part of the point, actually. It sort of stirs things up so that all of this is brought above board rather than assumed--ferrets out what the gestures and symbols actually mean to various people rather than everyone just assuming it's all noble and virtuous and such--precisely the mindset that sets it up to be used against itself/against what it stands for (which is what the whole patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel thing is about).
 
 --
 
Let me put it this way ...
 
I love my mother very much. I love her in spite of, and sometimes even because of her flaws. I don't feel the need to pretend my mother doesn't have the flaws she has, and my love for her is certainly not dependent upon pretending the flaws aren't there. I wouldn't appreciate someone presuming to love or represent my mother by misrepresenting her and pretending she doesn't have her flaws--i.e. that she's not who she is. I certainly wouldn't be swayed by the notion that I don't respect my mother because I don't need her to be free of her flaws in order to appreciate or love her, or that I don't love or appreciate her as much as the one who denies her flaws--i.e. the one who needs to deny who she really is. The false representation of my mother is not my mother. It's arguably a betrayal of who she really is. If someone claimed to love and cherish my mother, but only under the denial of those flaws, I wouldn't trust that person's alleged sentiment at all, and I'd feel pretty protective of my mother against such a person. I trust the simile goes without further explanation.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Bruce the budgie on Sep 26, 2017, 03:17PM
Whatever you want to call it, it's still the underlying racism and ultimately the engrained comfort with that racist inequality that is the core of the matter.

Aye, that's a conversation that ought to be happening, not giving air time to the tone/concern trolling from the ones clutching their pearls and diving for the fainting couch about athletes "disrespecting" the flag/anthem/troops on company time. They may not be innocent children, but they still have the right to point out that the man in the gold chair with the fancy hat on is butt naked and barefoot, no matter what line his tailors (handlers, surrogates, hangers-on, whatev) are trying to sell us.

Nowadays pro ball-players have a bully pulpit, and fair play to them for using it this way.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: B0B on Sep 26, 2017, 05:04PM
You can't tell a veteran that I'm going to protest the country you swore to defend, but I'm not protesting you personally it doesn't work that way for many veterans who aren't going to buy the distinction.
That seems the weakest argument of all, unfortunately.

A veteran goes off to war to fight for this country and it's freedoms, so that they can come home and attack, insult, and encourage a hostile environment against anyone that dares to speak out against the government? That's completely throwing away those freedoms, and the reasons to fight. At that point, they might as well be fighting for an autocratic ruler that imprisons dissent. At least then the dissenting person is in jail, and not worrying about death threats to themselves and their family from unknown assailants.

There is no freedom in saying what is popular. Only in what is not or may even be offensive. If it is truly the case that they want to shut that down, then they broke their oath of service and deserve to be shunned more than those they protest.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Radar on Sep 27, 2017, 05:27AM
I think many of you have missed my point, I never said they didn't have the right to protest in this way, and I defend their right to do so, I also actually agree with their cause.  Martin Luther King Jr. and his followers in their protests expected to be beaten and jailed for their cause.  They knew the short term outcome of their actions.  My point in all this discussion isn't that they are wrong in their actions, but that the outcry against them by many should have been expected.  Many people especially many veterans find disrespect for the flag offensive (go to any American Legion Post, or VFW post prior to a game and listen to the comments after the anthem when this happens).  By the way when the Anthem comes on at a Legion Post or VFW post everything stops, and those who are able come to attention. My point is that many veterans are offended by these protests (I'm not particularly one of them) and I think you're going to have a hard time convincing them that it's OK because it's for a good reason.  I'm only saying that those that are protesting in this manner should be ready for the consequences of their actions (which is they are going to alienate many, who may start boycotting them), just as MLK was ready to go to jail for his cause.  We've had a lot of deep conversation about why veterans shouldn't be offended and from an intellectual standpoint I can agree with you.  When it comes to our Country and the symbols that represent these are emotional issues for many (especially a lot of veterans) and they aren't analyzing it that deeply.  The fact that they are offended by disrespect for the flag or the anthem despite the reason for the protest doesn't necessarily make them racists either (although some may be).  If you go to other social media sites like facebook what are you seeing?  I'm not seeing the level of discussion and consensus building I'm seeing here, I'm seeing a lot of people complaining about crybaby rich people, who are attacking the country that made them rich.  I don't agree with this sentiment, and I've actually defended their right to protest on social media.  My point here is to say that this particular form of protest may not be that effective and could be divisive and may alienate some people who actually agree with their cause. There is a lot of I can't see why people especially veterans find this protest offensive, I'm just trying to explain that I do understand why many veterans find it offensive (and I know more that do than that don't).  Most of these people who find disrespect for the anthem offensive are not particularly racist either, they just have a deep emotional attachment to their country and the flag that represents it.     


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: elmsandr on Sep 27, 2017, 05:33AM
I've heard it said that this disrespect for our Flag is about BLM and not Trump. That group deserves no respect from any decent human.

A little off topic, but have we noticed that a bunch of the Russian fake news buys on Facebook and elsewhere were for things that spread false things about BLM.

You got played,
Andy


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: ddickerson on Sep 27, 2017, 07:12AM
But what would be effective?  What could they do, as Joe citizen who just happens to be an NFL player, without a big chunk of people complaining that they shouldn't be speaking up?

What would that thing be?

What would be effective you ask?

How about those that are kneeling, get off their A$$es and go on strike.

Of course, that would cost them money, put some of their skin in the game.

You see, they feel wronged, but aren't willing to put their own skin in the game.

IOW, they are taking the cowards way out.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: BGuttman on Sep 27, 2017, 07:23AM
STRIKE?  If the public (partcularly your segment of it) thinks taking a knee is ridiculous, then a strike would be seen as full bore treason.

You can strike to get Management to do something.  What is Management going to do about cops who randomly kill Blacks?


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Russ White on Sep 27, 2017, 07:31AM
What would be effective you ask?

How about those that are kneeling, get off their A$$es and go on strike.

Of course, that would cost them money, put some of their skin in the game.

You see, they feel wronged, but aren't willing to put their own skin in the game.

IOW, they are taking the cowards way out.

Kaepernick put a million dollars of his money where his mouth is. It would be nice if, just every once in a while, you knew what the heck you were talking about.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Baron von Bone on Sep 27, 2017, 07:54AM
Kaepernick put a million dollars of his money where his mouth is. It would be nice if, just every once in a while, you knew what the heck you were talking about.

Personally I'd be happy he offered some indication of just caring whether or not his own words represent an honest effort at what's actually real and true.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Radar on Sep 27, 2017, 08:11AM
There are lots of alternatives they could use other than kneeling during the anthem if they got creative.  These athletes have access to the media that the rest of us don't get.  They could more easily and clearly get there point across in an interview.  They also have hugh fan bases that follow them on social media.  They could use there  celebrity to organize marches, fundraisers, etc.  Kneeling is an easy way to get attention, but is it really conveying their message to the people they are trying to influence?


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: BGuttman on Sep 27, 2017, 08:15AM
Kneeling plays to their base like Trump fulminating about it plays to his.  At the very least both get us talking.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: ddickerson on Sep 27, 2017, 08:46AM
Kneeling plays to their base like Trump fulminating about it plays to his.  At the very least both get us talking.

Talking? I don't see any real discussion except Radar.

They could get involved in things they want to fix. Colin Kaepernick started this whole fiasco kneeling to protect the BLM and rail against all police. Oh yeah, racist police. Except, it boils down to in their world all police.

Why don't they round up a lot of football players and go to the south side of Chicago and so something positive that might save, SAVE black lives, instead of accusing americans of being racists.



Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: elmsandr on Sep 27, 2017, 08:49AM
Talking? I don't see any real discussion except Radar.

They could get involved in things they want to fix. Colin Kaepernick started this whole fiasco kneeling to protect the BLM and rail against all police. Oh yeah, racist police. Except, it boils down to in their world all police.

Why don't they round up a lot of football players and go to the south side of Chicago and so something positive that might save, SAVE black lives, instead of accusing americans of being racists.


Um, the impetus to change lies with the Racists?  What are you doing to be less racist?

Oh, and Kap has been very public with what he's doing, you just don't want to actually know anything about it.

Cheers,
Andy


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: BGuttman on Sep 27, 2017, 08:56AM
Dusty isn't racist.  The Civil Rights Act of 1965 made it illegal :evil:


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: elmsandr on Sep 27, 2017, 08:56AM
There are lots of alternatives they could use other than kneeling during the anthem if they got creative.  These athletes have access to the media that the rest of us don't get.  They could more easily and clearly get there point across in an interview.  They also have hugh fan bases that follow them on social media.  They could use there  celebrity to organize marches, fundraisers, etc.  Kneeling is an easy way to get attention, but is it really conveying their message to the people they are trying to influence?
Bull.

This has the country talking.  Most places aren't yet talking about the right issue, but they are getting closer.

Remember when NBA guys tried wearing shirts?  Got yelled at, but didn't get enough attention to gain traction.

Or when a bunch of them took a bunch of media time and made a speech on stage?  Again, no traction.

We are so close to having a real discussion, I say keep at it until folks realize what is going on.

As for the kneel, anybody want to remember that kneeling was chosen after discussion with a couple of veterans on how to show respect, or are we just gonna blow right by that?  They even are using the method given them by those that are supposedly disrespected and "methods aren't right". C'mon, the method of protest will never matter.  The who and what seem to be the problem here.

Cheers,
Andy


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: B0B on Sep 27, 2017, 09:01AM
My point in all this discussion isn't that they are wrong in their actions, but that the outcry against them by many should have been expected.
That would probably be the hope, yes. A protest with no response also has no traction. No traction is like a wheel stuck in the mud... spinning, but not going anywhere.

I'm only saying that those that are protesting in this manner should be ready for the consequences of their actions (which is they are going to alienate many, who may start boycotting them), just as MLK was ready to go to jail for his cause.
So what makes you think they weren't? Kaepernick put his career on the line to send a message. He did get the message out, but also lost that career for it. But just because MLK went to jail doesn't mean that he deserved it...


We've had a lot of deep conversation about why veterans shouldn't be offended and from an intellectual standpoint I can agree with you.  When it comes to our Country and the symbols that represent these are emotional issues for many (especially a lot of veterans) and they aren't analyzing it that deeply.  The fact that they are offended by disrespect for the flag or the anthem despite the reason for the protest doesn't necessarily make them racists either (although some may be).
The NFL protest was about racism and continuing unequal treatment. If someone jump in a rush to get offended, but does not understand what it is they are taking offense over, and they get lumped in with racists... ok. As you say, we take the consequences for our actions. Act before you think... and well, undesired consequences may result. And it will be the fault of the person who acted. Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems like a reap what you sow type of thing. When they give understanding to an opposing point, only then do they deserve to ask it of themselves.

If you go to other social media sites like facebook what are you seeing?
Mostly an echo chamber, unfortunately.

Facebook and the like have been very under rated in destroying a common society and replacing it with a multiple of bubbles. :(


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: ddickerson on Sep 27, 2017, 09:07AM
Um, the impetus to change lies with the Racists?  What are you doing to be less racist?

Cheers,
Andy

See? Your premise is entirely wrong, so how can we communicate?

You're just rebroadcasting false narratives.



Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: ddickerson on Sep 27, 2017, 09:08AM
Dusty isn't racist.  The Civil Rights Act of 1965 made it illegal :evil:

That is so full of BS Bruce.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Greg Waits on Sep 27, 2017, 09:26AM
I never heard Dusty condemn the neo-nazis and the KK supremacists. So what else am I expected to conclude?

Dusty, do you have a problem with Kid Rock when he dons himself in a US flag poncho? I doubt it.

Are you offended when Trump is shown NOT covering his hand over his heart while the national anthem is played? I doubt it.

No statements you make lead me to conclude anything but that you are a racist.

You may be offended. Well, I am offended by your unwillingness to acknowledge that blacks in this country are not treated equally by the police (no, not all police. And contrary to what you say, not all blacks condemn all police)


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Bruce the budgie on Sep 27, 2017, 09:28AM
Facebook and the like have been very under rated in destroying a common society and replacing it with a multiple of bubbles. :(

This morning I was disturbed to hear that SWMBO had been doing some amateur sleuthing last night on facebook, wondering where the vitriol she's been seeing lately comes from. Not too many clicks in, she started seeing pages in Cyrillic font. Buckle up, buckaroos!


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Greg Waits on Sep 27, 2017, 09:34AM

Why don't they round up a lot of football players and go to the south side of Chicago and so something positive that might save, SAVE black lives, instead of accusing americans of being racists.



Accusing Americans of being racists? Quote one protester who said that all Americans are racist. They are protesting the history of bad police treatment of blacks. And please don't insult me by denying that it happens. Sure there are justified shootings, but there have been many that are clearly bad. And the bad cops get put on paid administrative leave and sometimes they get charged. But nearly everyone of them that faces charges ends up being found not guilty. In fact I can only think of one policemen who went to prison over shooting a black man.

And you wonder what the fuss is about?

smh


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: BGuttman on Sep 27, 2017, 09:39AM
This morning I was disturbed to hear that SWMBO had been doing some amateur sleuthing last night on facebook, wondering where the vitriol she's been seeing lately comes from. Not too many clicks in, she started seeing pages in Cyrillic font. Buckle up, buckaroos!

Tsar Vladimir has discovered a new way to attack America.  A way he can sneak in and do his dirty work without firing a shot.  As Russ White says, "Wake Up, America".


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Greg Waits on Sep 27, 2017, 09:49AM
How about "Wake Up, Dusty"?


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Ellrod on Sep 27, 2017, 09:53AM
Is Dusty a Russian bot?



Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Russ White on Sep 27, 2017, 09:54AM
I've seen two especially pertinent memes, among thousands, on this subject today.

"If the knee in Freddy Gray's back bothered you as much as Kaepernick's knee on the field, there wouldn't be need for this discussion"

And, Kaepernick wearing a t-shirt that says;

"We March, Ya'll mad
We Sit, Ya'll mad
We stand, Ya'll mad
We die, Ya'll silent!"

It ain't about the freakin' flag.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: ddickerson on Sep 27, 2017, 10:10AM
This is so typical of leftist liberals, or whatever you ppl want call yourselves.

Participate and offer the other side, and all you  well educated, open minded, start hurling insults, names, and turn the discussion on the poster. I've got news for you ppl, these threads are not supposed to be about and against other members. But like the NFL's operational handbook, you ppl can break all the rules you want.

You guys may be able to play purity, but this behavior doesn't  make you look purty.

We are seeing the liberal leftists ruining the NFL proving that everything liberals touch, they destroy.





Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: B0B on Sep 27, 2017, 10:11AM
Tsar Vladimir has discovered a new way to attack America.  A way he can sneak in and do his dirty work without firing a shot.  As Russ White says, "Wake Up, America".

He may be throwing a log on the fire, but it's still a fire we built and continue to build higher and higher.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: B0B on Sep 27, 2017, 10:11AM
This is so typical of leftist liberals, or whatever you ppl want call yourselves.

Participate and offer the other side, and all you  well educated, open minded, start hurling insults, names, and turn the discussion on the poster. I've got news for you ppl, these threads are not supposed to be about and against other members. But like the NFL's operational handbook, you ppl can break all the rules you want.

You guys may be able to play purity, but this behavior doesn't  make you look purty.

We are seeing the liberal leftists ruining the NFL proving that everything liberals touch, they destroy.

The irony is strong in this one.

Speaking of politics... Isn't a US territory basically destroyed and in strong need of help? Isn't that a bit more important thing for the president to be focused on than a political primary, or a guy kneeling in NFL games last year?

At what point do politics matter more than our own people?


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: BGuttman on Sep 27, 2017, 10:15AM
A comment from Ronk:

Quote
Slide doesn't read very much
One protester who says all whites are racist. How about more than one;
https://www.bing.com/search?q=protester%20say%20all%20whites%20are%20racist&qs=n&form=QBRE&sp=-1&pq=protester%20say%20all%20whites%20are%20racist&sc=0-35&sk=&cvid=98E129F5178D4ECBB8AC6BB3FD66C168

Note: I don't agree with him most of the time.  I'm just allowing him to contribute.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Greg Waits on Sep 27, 2017, 10:22AM
Cute. he drops insults without even being in the room


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Russ White on Sep 27, 2017, 10:46AM
The irony is strong in this one.

Speaking of politics... Isn't a US territory basically destroyed and in strong need of help? Isn't that a bit more important thing for the president to be focused on than a political primary, or a guy kneeling in NFL games last year?

At what point do politics matter more than our own people?


I'm wondering what the response from the "Bulid a Fence" crowd is going to be when a million or more Spanish speakers immigrate here all at once. Do you think they'll be looking for a travel ban on Puerto Ricans?


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: ddickerson on Sep 27, 2017, 11:11AM

I'm wondering what the response from the "Buld a Fence" crowd is going to be when a million or more Spanish speakers immigrate here all at once. Do you think they'll be looking for a travel ban on Puerto Ricans?

When people come here from US territories, is that called 'immigration'? I never thought of it that way. You know that they are US citizens. Right?


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Russ White on Sep 27, 2017, 11:39AM
I do know that, but so are millions of Americans who have been targeted for years by guys like Joe Arpaio. I'm wondering what the folks who support Arpaio are gonna think about a million or so more of them show up all of a sudden.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: B0B on Sep 27, 2017, 11:40AM
When people come here from US territories, is that called 'immigration'? I never thought of it that way. You know that they are US citizens. Right?

The bigger question is does our president?

He's in Indiana pushing some vague tax plan at the moment. The only thing he has said about the territory is that it was tot tally destroyed, and he might get around to it next week.

Seriously! We have a territory with a population greater than 20 of the states... and it is without power, without fuel, without supplies...

And he b*tches about an ex-football player and a tax plan he can't give more than a page worth of vague bullet points on?


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Piano man on Sep 27, 2017, 11:58AM
Correct as to Government...Private...Not So Much.

They can be also be Fired at the Whim of the Owner...Free Speech...RIGHT!

AT THEIR WHIM!

This is actually a pretty good argument. Many people don't understand that the 1st Amendment is binding on gov't, not on citizens.

But these people aren't defying their employers. Their employers are defying Trump, which they have a right to do. It's not an appropriate use of the power of the presidency to harm private businesses, who pay his salary, for purely political reasons.

I was picking this apart today. I do not let my employees engage my guests regarding politics or religion, because it has nothing to do with steak and wine. I would not want any of my employees to make any controversial demonstration such as the ones the players are making.

So why shouldn't the NFL, or the individual owners make the same rule I do? Very simple. I'm not asking my employees and guests to salute the flag, because that also has nothing to do with my business. It also has absolutely nothing to do with football.

The owners and the NFL, but not Donald, are smart enough to realize when you introduce a political expression unrelated to your business, and compel people to participate, you fairly can't compel them to violate their own beliefs in the process. That's why this kind of nonsense is best avoided. Just play the damn game.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: ddickerson on Sep 27, 2017, 12:04PM
I do know that, but so are millions of Americans who have been targeted for years by guys like Joe Arpaio. I'm wondering what the folks who support Arpaio are gonna think about a million or so more of them show up all of a sudden.


I thought that Arpaio was against illegal aliens. How does that compute to American citizens? You guys really like to create dust storms to blur the truth. Facts matter.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Piano man on Sep 27, 2017, 12:09PM
I thought that Arpaio was against illegal aliens. How does that compute to American citizens? You guys really like to create dust storms to blur the truth. Facts matter.

Arpaio was convicted of racial profiling in law enforcement stops. Perhaps you thought he was an expert in distinguishing Hispanic-appearing people who were from a US territory rather than a foreign country, before he or his officers even pulled them over.

Apparently it's a myth that humans use only 10% of their brains. I can certainly think of cases where it might be true. You guys should try to think things through a little better.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: ddickerson on Sep 27, 2017, 12:13PM
Arpaio was convicted of racial profiling in law enforcement stops. Perhaps you thought he was an expert in distinguish Hispanic-appearing people who were from a US territory rather than a foreign country, before he or his officers even pulled them over.

Apparently it's a myth that humans use only 10% of their brains. I can certainly think of cases where it might be true. You guys should try to think things through a little better.

That was a political hit job. Trumped up.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Piano man on Sep 27, 2017, 12:17PM
That was a political hit job. Trumped up.

He was convicted in a court of law. What evidence do you have that it was political, or that he didn't do it, other than the fact that it's what you wish to believe?

Your question was how Arpaio's racial profiling would affect Puerto Ricans, who are US citizens. The answer is that they would have already profiled and harassed before that determination was made. That would be obvious to everyone here except you.

I think Trump's showing his true colors. Pardons an ethnic profiler, tries to get black people fired from good-paying jobs, and responds to the PR hurricane in a completely different manner than the ones in the South. The trifecta of Trumpism.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: ddickerson on Sep 27, 2017, 12:19PM
He was convicted in a court of law. What evidence do you have that it was political, or that he didn't do it, other than the fact that it's what you wish to believe?

Your question was how Arpaio's racial profiling would affect Puerto Ricans, who are US citizens. The answer is that they would have already profiled and harassed before that determination was made. That would be obvious to everyone here except you.

I think Trump's showing his true colors. Pardons an ethnic profiler, tries to get black people fired from good-paying jobs, and responds to the PR hurricane in a completely different manner than the ones in the South. The trifecta of Trumpism.

I didn't think it was possible to put that much BS into one post. Congrats!


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Piano man on Sep 27, 2017, 12:21PM
Back on topic, here's an interesting thought exercise:

Suppose the Kaepernick 'kneel' never happened. Instead, suppose one white player, who regarded Pat Tillman as a friend and mentor, knelt during the anthem as a humble tribute to his friends and to others who gave the ultimate sacrifice fighting under the flag. Suppose other players joined him in silent tribute to our fallen warriors.

Would people now boycott the NFL?


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Piano man on Sep 27, 2017, 12:24PM
I didn't think it was possible to put that much BS into one post. Congrats!

Well you weren't able to rebut any of it.

Let's take it one at a time:
1) Arpaio was convicted in a court of law. (FACT)
2) Puerto Ricans' citizenship would not prevent them from being profiled, because it would not be obvious to the profiling officer prior to the stop. (FACT)
3) Trump pardoned Arpaio, pressured the NFL to fire protesters, and has been largely silent on Puerto Rico (FACT, FACT, FACT)

You're getting your ass handed to you, so you can only respond with nonsense.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: ddickerson on Sep 27, 2017, 04:00PM
Back on topic, here's an interesting thought exercise:

Suppose the Kaepernick 'kneel' never happened. Instead, suppose one white player, who regarded Pat Tillman as a friend and mentor, knelt during the anthem as a humble tribute to his friends and to others who gave the ultimate sacrifice fighting under the flag. Suppose other players joined him in silent tribute to our fallen warriors.

Would people now boycott the NFL?

Suppose a football player, say, Tebow, bowed on his knees and gave thanks to the Lord. What could possibly happen?



Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: BGuttman on Sep 27, 2017, 04:07PM
Suppose a football player, say, Tebow, bowed on his knees and gave thanks to the Lord. What could possibly happen?



Lightning would strike the field and he'd lose his job :evil:


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Piano man on Sep 27, 2017, 10:46PM
Suppose a football player, say, Tebow, bowed on his knees and gave thanks to the Lord. What could possibly happen?



Nothing. That's why he had the right to do it. That's why no president urged a boycott of the NFL on account of it. You've answered your own question.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Burgerbob on Sep 27, 2017, 10:49PM
Suppose a football player, say, Tebow, bowed on his knees and gave thanks to the Lord. What could possibly happen?



Also, false equivalency. What is Tebow protesting?


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Piano man on Sep 27, 2017, 10:53PM
I think DDickerson made a great point, quite inadvertently. Can you imagine Obama urging anyone to fire Tebow?

Any time DD makes a salient point, it's by accident.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: ddickerson on Sep 28, 2017, 05:32AM
Nothing. That's why he had the right to do it. That's why no president urged a boycott of the NFL on account of it. You've answered your own question.

The president didn't have to suggest it would be great if he was fired. All the MSM did that for him. LOL!


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Piano man on Sep 28, 2017, 07:02AM
The president didn't have to suggest it would be great if he was fired. All the MSM did that for him. LOL!

You're prone to making statements you know to be false. First you said that Trump said what the rest of America was thinking, which you know isn't true (only a small minority agrees with Trump that the players should be fired, and in any case you know it's not 'the rest of America').

Now you're saying "All the MSM" suggested it would be great if Tebow were fired, which you also know to be untrue.

You try to blame your politics for the poor reception you get here, but it's your continual dishonesty.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boy_Who_Cried_Wolf


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: ddickerson on Sep 28, 2017, 07:08AM
You're prone to making statements you know to be false. First you said that Trump said what the rest of America was thinking, which you know isn't true (only a small minority agrees with Trump that the players should be fired, and in any case you know it's not 'the rest of America').

Now you're saying "All the MSM" suggested it would be great if Tebow were fired, which you also know to be untrue.

You try to blame your politics for the poor reception you get here, but it's your continual dishonesty.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boy_Who_Cried_Wolf

maybe your memory isn't very good, and you don't remember the controversy stirred up against Tebow. That's on you, not me. LOL!


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Piano man on Sep 28, 2017, 07:11AM
maybe your memory isn't very good, and you don't remember the controversy stirred up against Tebow. That's on you, not me. LOL!


Go right ahead and show me evidence that 'all the MSM' supported firing Tebow. That's what you said. Or quit crawfishing and admit you lied again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boy_Who_Cried_Wolf


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: ddickerson on Sep 28, 2017, 07:27AM
Go right ahead and show me evidence that 'all the MSM' supported firing Tebow. That's what you said. Or quit crawfishing and admit you lied again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boy_Who_Cried_Wolf

I'm not crawfishing, read up.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Baron von Bone on Sep 28, 2017, 08:13AM
Ignorance is easily forgivable generally speaking--we're all ignorant of everything we don't yet know. But when ignorance about things that effect others is willful, that's a character problem. It's all the worse when personal comfort (ideological) trumps honest consideration and that's combined with willful ignorance, that's being a bad neighbor. When all of that is held up proudly and defiantly and enthusiastically imposed upon others, it's a violation of the fundamental trust and responsibility and the most basic level of honesty that's required for a healthy society--it harms us all.
 
And here we are, in a crisis of honesty and integrity and the public trust, threatening to bring the rest of the world into it.
 
We're lavishing this mindset with attention, ensuring it gets maximum air time on all levels of society so that the utterly depraved mentality dictates what we're all thinking and talking about. This is a self-destructive intellectual malady that we'd damn well better become aware of, and learn how to address it.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: BGuttman on Sep 28, 2017, 09:59AM
Couple of points from our friend Ronkny:

Quote
another thing.
According to Title 36 (section 171) of the United States Code, “During rendition of the national anthem when the flag is displayed, all present except those in (military) uniform should stand at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart.

I guess this means we should be arresting all those fans who are not standing or who are headed to the bathrooms.

Quote
BTW they are not just kneeling.  They are raising their fist.

Really?

(https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/thumbor/7RohQxtSllLccF8p9_Imu99bbVk=/1753x977:3752x2734/920x613/filters:focal(2405x1783:3079x2457):format(webp)/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_image/image/56885963/853052294.0.jpg)

Note that the coach next to #97 has his hand over his belly.  Maybe he has an ulcer?  Guy behind #97 doesn't even have a hand over anything (except his family jewels).  We arrest them too?

Note: the fist raising was done in the 1968 olympics.  The two athletes were suspended and effectively banned from all future athletic events.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Piano man on Sep 28, 2017, 10:52AM
The flag code isn't enforced by law. All the self-styled 'patriots' who wear flag clothing or buy commercial items with the flag printed on them would be violating it.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Piano man on Sep 28, 2017, 12:10PM
I'm not crawfishing, read up.

I'm well aware of the controversy. It was not true that 'all the MSM' urged his firing. I can't prove a negative, and you can't produce evidence of another of your lies.

Tebow was a Heisman Trophy winner who did poorly in the NFL--nothing unusual there, especially for rushing QBs, who tend to do worse in the pros than college.  He had trouble hanging onto the ball and completing passes.

Some people mocked him for praying after each score, because they took it to mean that he thought God helped him score. I think this criticism was unfair. He said that it was instead to remind him of what was more important than football, and I have no reason to doubt him.

None of that adds up to 'all the MSM' urging him to be fired. That was a lie.

Here's the Wikipedia article--see if you can find any reference to 'mainstream media' urging his firing, as you claimed:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tim_Tebow

Here's another link that might help you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boy_Who_Cried_Wolf

If you don't care whether what you say is true, other people won't care what you say.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: B0B on Sep 28, 2017, 01:26PM
I am still stuck wondering...

This "controversy" is over a few people choosing to use one constitutional right to point out where we as a country have failed another constitutional right. People claim offense in the name of patriotism, but it is not patriotic in any sense to attack people for using their basic rights. Only a selfish, "I don't like you talking about about MY country" as if they aren't part of it too. Like saying to your sibling, "you can't talk about my mother like that! Only I can talk about my mother like that!"


But in the name of patriotism, they hold up the nation, the military, and national symbols. And I know that supports the political views of many holding them up. But doesn't that seem incredibly hollow? The country is one or both of two things: the people and/or the government. The military is a necessary evil to protect and preserve the country from attack. In this instance, they attack the people for using rights held fast under the government to protest other rights the government should also hold fast but doesn't, and they do so because any attack on the nation is an attack on those that "lay their lives down for it"(despite the military having a lower casualty and disability rate than a decent number of civilian occupations). If they can't support fundamental rights of the people, then what are they even defending against?


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Radar on Sep 28, 2017, 03:40PM
I am still stuck wondering...

This "controversy" is over a few people choosing to use one constitutional right to point out where we as a country have failed another constitutional right. People claim offense in the name of patriotism, but it is not patriotic in any sense to attack people for using their basic rights. Only a selfish, "I don't like you talking about about MY country" as if they aren't part of it too. Like saying to your sibling, "you can't talk about my mother like that! Only I can talk about my mother like that!"


But in the name of patriotism, they hold up the nation, the military, and national symbols. And I know that supports the political views of many holding them up. But doesn't that seem incredibly hollow? The country is one or both of two things: the people and/or the government. The military is a necessary evil to protect and preserve the country from attack. In this instance, they attack the people for using rights held fast under the government to protest other rights the government should also hold fast but doesn't, and they do so because any attack on the nation is an attack on those that "lay their lives down for it"(despite the military having a lower casualty and disability rate than a decent number of civilian occupations). If they can't support fundamental rights of the people, then what are they even defending against?

I'm stuck wondering why people can't understand why some people especially veterans find it offensive when people disrespect the flag.  Yes you can find some open minded veterans who are not offended and very supportive of the protest, and for every one of those you will find just as many that are upset by it. Veterans are a diverse group of people just like the rest of America.  They represent all political parties, all religions, and all ethnicities, and will have diverse opinions on issues.  Like I've said before it's an emotional issue, and this particular form of protest is going to evoke many emotions.  If it didn't upset people would they be using this form of protest, and would it be as effective?  Yes racism upsets me,  unjustified shootings upset me, the presidents stupid comments upset me, but although I support their right to protest in this manner people can also be saddened and regret their chosen method to deliver their message.  Not every issue is black and white, you can support their cause without liking how they go about presenting it.  There is freedom of thought and freedom of speech, but some of you only want to hear and validate opinions that are the same as yours.  Don't those who have an emotional attachment to the flag that symbolizes the country they fought for have the right to state that they are upset without being branded racist, or being labeled as part of the problem.  If you truly believe in freedom of thought an expression then you should be more tolerant of the rights of others to express their views (I'm not referring to hate speech here), as much they have to be of yours.  People who are opposed to the kneeling during the anthem have just as much a right to express that, as those who choose to kneel.     


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: mwpfoot on Sep 28, 2017, 04:10PM
It's easy to dismiss the protesters because they aren't protesting the right way - even a simpleton can jam their fingers in their ears and shout slogans. They don't see the soldiers, veterans, and law enforcement members who support the campaign because they are blinded by self-righteous indignation.

So many in the privileged majority won't allow themselves to acknowledge the complicated issues being raised on any level because they are implied to be complicit. But it is ridiculous that something symbolic is alleged to be more meaningful than something real, literally: "You and your children will continue to fear for your life with every traffic stop so long as you disrespect my grandpappy's service in World War II." Which is ironic, because it's a tidy little example of the actual issues being protested.

At this point people either know what this is about or they refuse to see. The thus-far awareness campaign has reached the tricky "now what?" stage. Without any central leadership, things are perfectly positioned to fizzle out with some key players dismissed as not caring enough. Sad!

 :dontknow:


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: growlerbox on Sep 28, 2017, 05:26PM
Couple of points from our friend Ronkny:

What does it mean to be banned from "Purely Politics" if you can have a moderator post your garbage for you (even, perhaps especially, if said moderator doesn't agree with you)?

Odd.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: BGuttman on Sep 28, 2017, 05:53PM
What does it mean to be banned from "Purely Politics" if you can have a moderator post your garbage for you (even, perhaps especially, if said moderator doesn't agree with you)?

Odd.

He was banned for being nasty and snide.  But he does have a valid complaint that his side (Right Wing) was not sufficiently represented.  I will post comments that contribute to the conversation, but generally try not to post the ones where he is being snide.

Unfortunately, a lot of the comments from many of our Right Wing guys tend to simply be snide.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Piano man on Sep 28, 2017, 06:55PM
I'm not going to bag on Ronkny because he can't reply. He sent me a PM and it was reasonable even if I didn't agree with it.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Greg Waits on Sep 28, 2017, 06:59PM
I'm not going to bag on Ronkny because he can't reply. He sent me a PM and it was reasonable even if I didn't agree with it.

The only times he did send me a mssg, it was to be snarky. I don't need that. I replied telling him that I had no intention of reading anymore of mssgs. Instant delete.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: B0B on Sep 29, 2017, 05:03AM
I'm stuck wondering why people can't understand why some people especially veterans find it offensive when people disrespect the flag.
Oh, I understanding. You miss the difference of understanding and validating.

To paraphrase the sentiment: "I SERVED FOR YOUR FREEDOMS! HOW DARE YOU TRY TO USE THEM!"

They find it offensive because it's not about the service, but the person himself. They disrespect their own service with their attempts to hold it up as an excuse to limit the very freedoms they fought for. If they can't respect their own service, then I won't respect it when they try to wrap themselves in it for their own purposes. And at that point, you basically have just another crotchety old person yelling "I don't care about you! I don't care about your cause! I don't care about your rights! Now shut up and entertain me! This is about me not you!" I simply don't think it's fitting to validate the opinion of a person who with their own words doesn't concern themselves with the country or our freedoms or other people if they an inconvenienced or the smallest bit offended.

Thankfully, of the decent number of veterans I know, this opinion is quite the minority stake.

Don't those who have an emotional attachment to the flag that symbolizes the country they fought for have the right to state that they are upset without being branded racist, or being labeled as part of the problem.
When they espouse their viewpoint as an attempt to shut down those who espouse viewpoints they don't like? Nope. Especially when considering the issue, that very offense means they are quite likely part of the problem. Respect flows both ways, or not at all.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Radar on Sep 29, 2017, 05:21AM
Oh, I understanding. You miss the difference of understanding and validating.

To paraphrase the sentiment: "I SERVED FOR YOUR FREEDOMS! HOW DARE YOU TRY TO USE THEM!"

They find it offensive because it's not about the service, but the person himself. They disrespect their own service with their attempts to hold it up as an excuse to limit the very freedoms they fought for. If they can't respect their own service, then I won't respect it when they try to wrap themselves in it for their own purposes. And at that point, you basically have just another crotchety old person yelling "I don't care about you! I don't care about your cause! I don't care about your rights! Now shut up and entertain me! This is about me not you!" I simply don't think it's fitting to validate the opinion of a person who with their own words doesn't concern themselves with the country or our freedoms or other people if they an inconvenienced or the smallest bit offended.

Thankfully, of the decent number of veterans I know, this opinion is quite the minority stake.
When they espouse their viewpoint as an attempt to shut down those who espouse viewpoints they don't like? Nope. Especially when considering the issue, that very offense means they are quite likely part of the problem. Respect flows both ways, or not at all.

Well I'm a retired veteran myself, and I'm in contact with many other veterans on a daily basis, what I'm hearing most of them say is we understand and agree with the cause, but we don't like them disrespecting the flag to get their message across.  Not all of the veterans I'm in contact with are old guys like me either.  I also know many that are currently serving (including my son who has done multiple tours in Iraq and Afghanistan) who also feels the same.  Not liking the form of the protest isn't the same as not having empathy for and agreeing with the cause.  You assume that because people dislike the form of the protest that they disagree with and don't get the message, most of them do.  When the civil rights movement was going on many of MLKs supporters didn't agree with the Black Panthers because of the militant/violent nature of their protest (and no I'm not comparing the Kneelers to the Panther movement), same message different ideas on how to deliver it.  There are multiple ways to deliver a message and get people talking about it, some people in this current situation don't like the delivery that doesn't mean they reject the message. You seem to have an all or nothing attitude regarding this, if they reject the form of the protest they must reject the message and that isn't the case.  You are trying to dictate how people should feel about the flag and country, and you're assuming if they feel that way about flag and country they must be on the other side regarding the race issues as well.  I saying that the two issues can and should be separate.  You can use the flag to protest, that's been established as your right and I support your right to do so, just don't tell people they have to agree with the protest method just because they agree with the message.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: B0B on Sep 29, 2017, 06:10AM
Well I'm a retired veteran myself, and I'm in contact with many other veterans on a daily basis, what I'm hearing most of them say is we understand and agree with the cause, but we don't like them disrespecting the flag to get their message across.  Not all of the veterans I'm in contact with are old guys like me either.  I also know many that are currently serving (including my son who has done multiple tours in Iraq and Afghanistan) who also feel the same.  Not liking the form of the protest isn't the same as not having empathy for and agreeing with the cause.  You assume that because people dislike the form of the protest that they disagree with and don't get the message, most of them do.  When the civil rights movement was going on many of MLKs supporters didn't agree with the Black Panthers because of the militant/violent nature of their protest, same message different ideas on how to deliver it.  There are multiple ways to deliver a message and get people talking about it, some people in the current situation don't like the delivery, that doesn't mean they reject the message. 

Many people especially many veterans find disrespect for the flag offensive (go to any American Legion Post, or VFW post prior to a game and listen to the comments after the anthem when this happens).  By the way when the Anthem comes on at a Legion Post or VFW post everything stops, and those who are able come to attention. My point is that many veterans are offended by these protests (I'm not particularly one of them) and I think you're going to have a hard time convincing them that it's OK because it's for a good reason. 
...
When it comes to our Country and the symbols that represent these are emotional issues for many (especially a lot of veterans) and they aren't analyzing it that deeply.
Sounds like you're trying to have it both ways.

On one hand, it's a gut reaction that isn't really thought through.... on the other, it's a deliberate and contemplative response.



The Panthers and MLK fought the fight together. They may have disagreed on how, but they were both fully vested.

Where are these veterans?

When they criticize the method, what alternative method have they put out and actually gotten behind? The best you say yourself is that the nfl folks are doing a, maybe they should do b. Not that you would have any part of either. Just, hey... don't like that option a.

If they truly care or truly have empathy... where are they pushing the message in more appropriate ways? Saying, hey, I get your message but the delivery is offense, so LETS do this other way together? After all, they felt the need or right to inject themselves into the issue. If they feel the need to get involved, they can hurt or help. Haven't seen many of these offended folks offer any real help.



Otherwise, it's a pretty standard defensive response to claim offense to an issue and demand that the offense be dealt with before the issue can. It is not empathetic. It is not understanding. It's distraction and deflection.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: elmsandr on Sep 29, 2017, 06:26AM
Well I'm a retired veteran myself, and I'm in contact with many other veterans on a daily basis, what I'm hearing most of them say is we understand and agree with the cause, but we don't like them disrespecting the flag to get their message across.  Not all of the veterans I'm in contact with are old guys like me either.  I also know many that are currently serving (including my son who has done multiple tours in Iraq and Afghanistan) who also feels the same.  Not liking the form of the protest isn't the same as not having empathy for and agreeing with the cause.  You assume that because people dislike the form of the protest that they disagree with and don't get the message, most of them do.  When the civil rights movement was going on many of MLKs supporters didn't agree with the Black Panthers because of the militant/violent nature of their protest (and no I'm not comparing the Kneelers to the Panther movement), same message different ideas on how to deliver it.  There are multiple ways to deliver a message and get people talking about it, some people in this current situation don't like the delivery that doesn't mean they reject the message. You seem to have an all or nothing attitude regarding this, if they reject the form of the protest they must reject the message and that isn't the case.  You are trying to dictate how people should feel about the flag and country, and you're assuming if they feel that way about flag and country they must be on the other side regarding the race issues as well.  I saying that the two issues can and should be separate.  You can use the flag to protest, that's been established as your right and I support your right to do so, just don't tell people they have to agree with the protest method just because they agree with the message.
I see what you are trying to say, but don't MLK this.  Generically the people didn't think his way was the right way, either.  Look into the polling at the time.  The march in Washington was >50% disapproval.  I don't think we should make a White Veteran's Guide to appropriate times to protest, it wouldn't make much sense.

The guys taking a knee are getting death threats.  Real ones. They aren't doing it lightly.  Even if you feel that strongly, and trust me, they know that, perhaps that makes the point that much stronger.

Cheers,
Andy


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Radar on Sep 29, 2017, 06:31AM
Bob, I see your point regarding not offering any alternatives.  Honestly I don't know what the alternative should be, If I had one I would offer it.  The laws are on the books that we're all supposed to be equal, but the problem now is changing peoples attitudes and long held prejudices.  Changing peoples minds isn't as easy as putting laws on the books.  If you are trying to get people not to hate what's the best way to do that?  Do we get people not to hate by attacking what they love?  I wish I had some answers, I'm just not that smart, and I realize it.  


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: B0B on Sep 29, 2017, 06:54AM
Bob, I see your point regarding not offering any alternatives.  Honestly I don't know what the alternative should be, If I had one I would offer it.  The laws are on the books that we're all supposed to be equal, but the problem now is changing peoples attitudes and long held prejudices.  Changing peoples minds isn't as easy as putting laws on the books.  If you are trying to get people not to hate what's the best way to do that?  Do we get people not to hate by attacking what they love?  I wish I had some answers, I'm just not that smart, and I realize it.  

Almost, but you're still missing some.

If the veterans you talk about take offense to the protest methods and do so publically or meaningfully, they are involving themselves. They are part of the discussion, as you illustrate by bringing up these offended folks on their behalf.

But being involved is a tricky thing. Either you try to help the conversation, or at best you dilute or distract from it. If your veteran friends get involved simply to give a gut protest that they feel their service is being disrespected and that's it... Then they absolutely deserved to be labelled as the issue they are being. And if they side with the racists against the protests and happen to get labelled as such, as you say "the outcry against them by many should have been expected". Maybe they say they aren't, but someone who's gut reaction is to dishonor their own service while holding it up to demand respect... that person isn't exactly showing they are reliable or trustworthy.

As Kaep initially stated directly to a vet that publically wrote him when this all started, it is not about veterans or their service nor did he mean to insult or belittle them or their efforts.

If you are empathetic but you or they don't know what to do, first, do no harm...


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Baron von Bone on Sep 29, 2017, 07:12AM
Well I'm a retired veteran myself, and I'm in contact with many other veterans on a daily basis, what I'm hearing most of them say is we understand and agree with the cause, but we don't like them disrespecting the flag to get their message across.
I get that. I'd just argue that the symbol is supposed to function as a representation of the ideals behind it, so when those presuming to identify under it betray those ideals--particularly those who officially (mis)represent it--it's an entirely sound approach to demonstrate based upon how they've corrupted the symbol if we accept their perversion of it--if we accept it as representation of the ideals they're really using it to reflect/cover.
 
But I think we're in full agreement about what's most important here--upholding the actual principles behind the symbol, in this case meaning their right to peacefully demonstrate (and accepting the immediate personal results) as they see fit.
 
Not all of the veterans I'm in contact with are old guys like me either.  I also know many that are currently serving (including my son who has done multiple tours in Iraq and Afghanistan) who also feel the same.
As long as they get the fact that the right to demonstrate in ways they may not personally be okay with is part and parcel of what they're serving to defend (it's not about them--i.e. you/me).
 
Not liking the form of the protest isn't the same as not having empathy for and agreeing with the cause.  You assume that because people dislike the form of the protest that they disagree with and don't get the message, most of them do.
This is the other side of the you have to accept the results of your actions coin though. You're absolutely right, but the two are combined in many cases--probably the large majority in my estimation. And people in general have a great deal of trouble with such nuance, so it works in reverse as well--many will fail to make that distinction in their perception of your take on the matter just as many who share your take (in the binary sense) also fail to make the distinction you're pointing out.
 
When the civil rights movement was going on many of MLKs supporters didn't agree with the Black Panthers because of the militant/violent nature of their protest, same message different ideas on how to deliver it.  There are multiple ways to deliver a message and get people talking about it, some people in the current situation don't like the delivery, that doesn't mean they reject the message.
I agree that the use of sacred symbols in protest creates problematic distractions from the actual point unless the actual point is about the symbols, but that may just be an unavoidable obstacle to really making the point in a way that sticks. Sometimes you have to use a lead blocker to get a runner through the line, and the ideal result is that no one on the line manages to get a hold of the actual ball carrier. That doesn't happen until the line is left behind, but the result still defines the field for the next play.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Radar on Sep 29, 2017, 07:14AM
Almost, but you're still missing some.

If the veterans you talk about take offense to the protest methods and do so publically or meaningfully, they are involving themselves. They are part of the discussion, as you illustrate by bringing up these offended folks on their behalf.

But being involved is a tricky thing. Either you try to help the conversation, or at best you dilute or distract from it. If your veteran friends get involved simply to give a gut protest that they feel their service is being disrespected and that's it... Then they absolutely deserved to be labelled as the issue they are being. And if they side with the racists against the protests and happen to get labelled as such, as you say "the outcry against them by many should have been expected". Maybe they say they aren't, but someone who's gut reaction is to dishonor their own service while holding it up to demand respect... that person isn't exactly showing their are reliable or trustworthy.

As Kaep initially stated directly to a vet that publically wrote him when this all started, it is not about veterans or their service nor did he mean to insult or belittle them or their efforts.

If you are empathetic but you or they don't know what to do, first, do no harm...
Bob, I've actually been stuck home sick the past couple days and have had too much time on my hands, so excuse me if I come across as being overly argumentative.  I'm personally not offended by the protests, but I do know veterans that are so I was just trying to represent their views in what seemed like a very one sided discussion.  I know these veterans for the most part to be decent people who do their best to treat everyone equally.  I understand the do no harm part of the equation you are getting at.  I get where your coming from, and I do see all of your points.  I'm not trying to diminish their message in any way. but my question is and has been (which I don't think you've addressed) are the protesters hurting their own cause by using a means of protest that people react so negatively to?        


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: B0B on Sep 29, 2017, 07:30AM
but my question is and has been (which I don't think you've addressed) are the protesters hurting their own cause by using a means of protest that people react so negatively to?

They are challenging the status quo. The only method that does that and does not get a negative reaction is a method that also gets no traction.

Think back to your MLK references... They were incredibly peaceful. And yet... how many times was he jailed? His home blown up? Murdered in cold blood? His supporters attacked? John Lewis still bears the scars from being assaulted by police in a peaceful walk to the Alabama capital. How many peaceful blacks were lynched? How many churches burned?

Or Ghandi. The British killed 400 non-violent protestors in a single event simply for resisting.

If there is a protest that will get traction and positive response... I have little doubt they would love to do it. But historically... what meaningful protest to power has occurred, even very peaceful ones, that have no generated negative reactions? Even just asking for the rights of civil gay marriage stirred a very strong decade long resistance that even played a major role in reelecting a president.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: elmsandr on Sep 29, 2017, 08:32AM
Bob, I've actually been stuck home sick the past couple days and have had too much time on my hands, so excuse me if I come across as being overly argumentative.  I'm personally not offended by the protests, but I do know veterans that are so I was just trying to represent their views in what seemed like a very one sided discussion.  I know these veterans for the most part to be decent people who do their best to treat everyone equally.  I understand the do no harm part of the equation you are getting at.  I get where your coming from, and I do see all of your points.  I'm not trying to diminish their message in any way. but my question is and has been (which I don't think you've addressed) are the protesters hurting their own cause by using a means of protest that people react so negatively to?        
Except... the Cowboys were booed.  They kneeled as a team, then stood up for the anthem.  They were booed.  Pretty sure that says it doesn't really matter the method.  It is the who and the what of the protest.  The how just gives the first line of cover.  The kneeling was added by Kap specifically after meeting with veterans and they suggested it as a sign of respect.  Funny, it is still seen as disrespectful.  It isn't now, nor has it ever been about the flag.  They would just find some other reason to complain.

Cheers,
Andy


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Radar on Sep 29, 2017, 09:37AM
OK, I see your point, and I'm going to make this my final post on the subject, since I've really been mostly playing devils advocate here because all of the one sidedness of the discussion was getting boring.  I just don't think the protesters are reaching the right people.  Look at the discussion here, you have a bunch of people who agree with them talking about the merits of what they are doing.  The only two dissenting opinions have been cut out of the discussion.  This form of protest has given many (mostly Trump supporters) the opportunity to ignore their message and wrap themselves in the flag.  What is the protestors desired outcome, who are they trying to reach, and are they making progress towards their goals?  Yes to some degree they are opening up discussion and discourse, but are the right people talking about it.  The main objective of the Civil Rights movement was to strike down the Jim Crow laws in the south.  They accomplished that goal (with the help of a lot of sympathetic white Baby Boomers, my peers), now we have a different battle to win.  We did the easy part we got the unfair laws abolished, separate but equal is no longer legal.  Now we have the laws and the fight is to change attitudes, will the same tactics that worked then work now?  Maybe they will maybe they won't.  In one of my previous posts I had offered alternatives (you can go back and find it if you look) and those alternatives were all summarily dismissed.  I'm not anti-kneeler I just suspect that the people who need to hear their message the most aren't getting it because of the form of the protest.  Maybe they would just not get it regardless of how the protest was done.  My main point in all of this was really not to attack those kneeling in protest, but to get us thinking about should we be doing something else that might be more productive and reach the people who need to hear the message the most.  I really don't know what the solution is, I'm only one individual with limited resources what we need to build is consensus and solidarity behind the cause, are we doing that?  Are we leaving out some allies in the fight who honestly feel that the kneeling protest is offensive in it's form?  If all we're going to do is talk amongst ourselves about how bad things are and not include those who disagree in the discussion are we going to get anywhere?


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Baron von Bone on Sep 29, 2017, 09:55AM
Except... the Cowboys were booed.  They kneeled as a team, then stood up for the anthem.  They were booed.  Pretty sure that says it doesn't really matter the method.  It is the who and the what of the protest.  The how just gives the first line of cover.  The kneeling was added by Kap specifically after meeting with veterans and they suggested it as a sign of respect.  Funny, it is still seen as disrespectful.  It isn't now, nor has it ever been about the flag.  They would just find some other reason to complain.

I'm not sure that's the most accurate take-away from this case. It's at least arguable that it demonstrates just how provocative and distractionary it is to base a protest on a sacred symbol (noting my position on that (http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,102279.msg1214948.html#msg1214948)).
 
Human brain owners react first, then come up with the justification. This is why we have to invest in the sound process of vetting our sentiments and inclinations and perceptions and the conclusions that come from them. Unfortunately we don't have the option of disciplining the initial reaction out of us--got to learn to accept that our sentiments and perceptions and such need vigilant vetting and frequent modification, if we value what's real and true over what we feel.
 
English note:
Kneeled has recently become technically okay as an alternative to the traditional knelt (just because you made me look that up ... heh).


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Piano man on Sep 29, 2017, 10:52AM
Radar, I get where you're coming from--that as a practical matter, the protests might do more harm than good, even though you're not personally offended by them.

This is something I posted earlier, and you could probably answer it better than anyone else here:

Suppose the Kaepernick 'kneel' never happened. Instead, suppose one white player, who regarded Pat Tillman as a friend and mentor, knelt during the anthem as a humble tribute to his friends and to others who gave the ultimate sacrifice fighting under the flag. Suppose other players joined him in silent tribute to our fallen warriors.

Would vets still be offended?


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Radar on Sep 29, 2017, 11:11AM
Radar, I get where you're coming from--that as a practical matter, the protests might do more harm than good, even though you're not personally offended by them.

This is something I posted earlier, and you could probably answer it better than anyone else here:

Suppose the Kaepernick 'kneel' never happened. Instead, suppose one white player, who regarded Pat Tillman as a friend and mentor, knelt during the anthem as a humble tribute to his friends and to others who gave the ultimate sacrifice fighting under the flag. Suppose other players joined him in silent tribute to our fallen warriors.

Would vets still be offended?
I would suspect that there would be less outrage over a Pat Tillman tribute, than there was to Kaepernick's protest.  I think a tribute would be better received than a protest, but I do think there would still be some who are sticklers for protocol who would still bring up that kneeling during the Anthem wasn't appropriate and ask him to do it another time.  I see the hypocrisy of the two situations, and I also don't deny that there are a few out there whose opposition to the kneeling is racially motivated (whether consciously or sub-consciously).   


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Piano man on Sep 29, 2017, 12:01PM
I would suspect that there would be less outrage over a Pat Tillman tribute, than there was to Kaepernick's protest.  I think a tribute would be better received than a protest, but I do think there would still be some who are sticklers for protocol who would still bring up that kneeling during the Anthem wasn't appropriate and ask him to do it another time.  I see the hypocrisy of the two situations, and I also don't deny that there are a few out there whose opposition to the kneeling is racially motivated (whether consciously or sub-consciously).   

I just want to separate the antipathy for the purpose of the demonstration from offense at kneeling during the anthem. I think the great majority of people raising hell over this aren't sticklers for protocol at all. How many of them stand at home during the anthem? How many of them protest businesses that use the flag in their logo, or take offense at 'patriotic' clothing with the American flag?

To the extent these genuine 'sticklers' exist, they'd probably be within your vet's group, because you have more specific training in this regard. You also raise a good point that not only is the subject different, but there's a difference between a tribute and a protest.

I just like to sort these things out.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Russ White on Sep 29, 2017, 12:03PM
Here's a post worthy of a read. Sadly, from what I can tell from where I got it, the folks who would most benefit from it won't bother to read it.

How it all started, and how we got here.

(Unfortunately, the people that could learn something by reading this likely won't bother).

Did you know this?
Aug 14, 2016- Colin Kaepernick sits for the national anthem.....and no one noticed.

Aug 20th, 2016- Colin again sits, and again, no one noticed.

Aug 26th, 2016- Colin sits and this time he is met with a level of vitriol unseen against an athlete. Even the future President of the United States took shots at him while on the campaign trail. Colin went on to explain his protest had NOTHING to with the military, but he felt it hard to stand for a flag that didn't treat people of color fairly.

Then on on Aug 30th, 2016 Nate Boyer, a former Army Green Beret turned NFL long snapper, penned an open letter to Colin in the Army Times. In it he expressed how Colin's sitting affected him.

Then a strange thing happened. Colin was able to do what most Americans to date have not...
He listened.

In his letter, Mr. Boyer writes:
"Iím not judging you for standing up for what you believe in. Itís your inalienable right. What you are doing takes a lot of courage, and Iíd be lying if I said I knew what it was like to walk around in your shoes. Iíve never had to deal with prejudice because of the color of my skin, and for me to say I can relate to what youíve gone through is as ignorant as someone whoís never been in a combat zone telling me they understand what itís like to go to war.
Even though my initial reaction to your protest was one of anger, Iím trying to listen to what youíre saying and why youíre doing it."

Mr. Boyer goes on to write "There are already plenty people fighting fire with fire, and itís just not helping anyone or anything. So Iím just going to keep listening, with an open mind. I look forward to the day you're inspired to once again stand during our national anthem. I'll be standing right there next to you."

Empathy and understanding was shown by Mr. Boyer.........and Mr. Kaepernick reciprocated.

Colin invited Nate to San Diego where the two had a 90 minute discussion and Nate proposed Colin kneel instead of sit.

But why kneel? In a military funeral, after the flag is taken off the casket of the fallen military member, it is smartly folded 13 times and then presented to the parents, spouse or child of the fallen member by a fellow service member while KNEELING. The two decided that kneeling for the flag would symbolize his reverence for those that paid the ultimate sacrifice while still allowing Colin to peacefully protest the injustices he saw.

Empathy, not zealotry under the guise of patriotism, is the only way meaningful discussion can be had. Mr. Kaepernick listened to all of you that say he disrespects the military and extended an olive branch to find a peace.

When will America listen to him?

We can all learn from this backstory. The truth often lies in the middle. Seek to learn the opposing side's point.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Piano man on Sep 29, 2017, 12:05PM
I'm also a little cynical over the fact that many of these same people support the flying of the Confederate flag. If quietly and passively sitting out the anthem is objectionable, surely it's far worse actively flying a flag against the Stars and Stripes.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Greg Waits on Sep 29, 2017, 12:24PM
I'm also a little cynical over the fact that many of these same people support the flying of the Confederate flag. If quietly and passively sitting out the anthem is objectionable, surely it's far worse actively flying a flag against the Stars and Stripes.

Exactly. Selective outrage. Knee deep in hypocrisy.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: B0B on Sep 29, 2017, 12:25PM
This form of protest has given many (mostly Trump supporters) the opportunity to ignore their message and wrap themselves in the flag.  What is the protestors desired outcome, who are they trying to reach, and are they making progress towards their goals?  Yes to some degree they are opening up discussion and discourse, but are the right people talking about it.  The main objective of the Civil Rights movement was to strike down the Jim Crow laws in the south.  They accomplished that goal (with the help of a lot of sympathetic white Baby Boomers, my peers), now we have a different battle to win.  We did the easy part we got the unfair laws abolished, separate but equal is no longer legal.  Now we have the laws and the fight is to change attitudes, will the same tactics that worked then work now?  Maybe they will maybe they won't.  In one of my previous posts I had offered alternatives (you can go back and find it if you look) and those alternatives were all summarily dismissed.  I'm not anti-kneeler I just suspect that the people who need to hear their message the most aren't getting it because of the form of the protest.  Maybe they would just not get it regardless of how the protest was done.  My main point in all of this was really not to attack those kneeling in protest, but to get us thinking about should we be doing something else that might be more productive and reach the people who need to hear the message the most.  I really don't know what the solution is, I'm only one individual with limited resources what we need to build is consensus and solidarity behind the cause, are we doing that?  Are we leaving out some allies in the fight who honestly feel that the kneeling protest is offensive in it's form?  If all we're going to do is talk amongst ourselves about how bad things are and not include those who disagree in the discussion are we going to get anywhere?

Ok, so serious question: Do you actually have any answers or real suggestions to the issues you pose, or is this simply second guessing?

You seem to have an interesting recollection of history... that MLK and his movement were popular - they weren't, just look at his constant arrests and attacks against him. Baby boomers helped it along - actually most of this happened as they were just kids, and it was their parents, not the boomers who were instrumental. That the era of jim crow type laws to restrict rights was won - see the number of adult blacks with felonies, and how many state limit felon voting rights. Even for existing laws such as drug law, see how unevenly they are executed.

Or even... you have a some group of reactionary people who get easily offended and make someone else's protest immediately a personal issue against themselves. And your focus is on how to placate people even you say are unlikely to be reached because of their own preconceived notions?


Ultimately... You can look through history and a few things for sure:
1) People will be upset. People will be offended. People will resist. Those in power/privilege(whites) have nothing to gain by giving up their advantages, nor will they do so readily or easily.  
2) No change will happen without effort.
3) No one has the answers, just ideas of how to try.

#2 & 3 simply means for better or worse... trying... is more likely to do some good then sitting back, second guessing, and not doing anything at all for fear of what might happen.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Radar on Sep 29, 2017, 02:36PM
Ok, so serious question: Do you actually have any answers or real suggestions to the issues you pose, or is this simply second guessing?

You seem to have an interesting recollection of history... that MLK and his movement were popular - they weren't, just look at his constant arrests and attacks against him. Baby boomers helped it along - actually most of this happened as they were just kids, and it was their parents, not the boomers who were instrumental. That the era of jim crow type laws to restrict rights was won - see the number of adult blacks with felonies, and how many state limit felon voting rights. Even for existing laws such as drug law, see how unevenly they are executed.

Or even... you have a some group of reactionary people who get easily offended and make someone else's protest immediately a personal issue against themselves. And your focus is on how to placate people even you say are unlikely to be reached because of their own preconceived notions?


Ultimately... You can look through history and a few things for sure:
1) People will be upset. People will be offended. People will resist. Those in power/privilege(whites) have nothing to gain by giving up their advantages, nor will they do so readily or easily.  
2) No change will happen without effort.
3) No one has the answers, just ideas of how to try.

#2 & 3 simply means for better or worse... trying... is more likely to do some good then sitting back, second guessing, and not doing anything at all for fear of what might happen.
Bob, I never said the Civil Rights movement was widely popular it wasn't (you're putting words in my mouth), The baby boom generation starts in 1946, and the height of the Civil Rights movement was the Mid 60s, but it continued into the 70s putting some of the boomers in their late teens and early 20s, the civil rights movement got a lot of support from many younger whites (but I can say the majority of our parents were not fans at all) and you are right there were probably more people marching from the boomers parents generation than the boomers because of their early age (I stand corrected), but there were early boomers involved, and when I was in school in the 60s and 70s myself and most of my peers revered Dr. King and the work he did for civil rights.  I did suggest in a previous post that they could use their celebrity status in a less divisive manner to get there message across, but my suggestion of them  holding press conferences, organizing marches, etc. was shot down by the posters in the thread as being ineffective, so no I don't have additional suggestions!!   


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Russ White on Sep 29, 2017, 04:49PM
Here's another relevant perspective.....

https://www.facebook.com/NowThisPolitics/videos/1718294461535370/


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: bhcordova on Sep 29, 2017, 07:33PM
Bob, I never said the Civil Rights movement was widely popular it wasn't (you're putting words in my mouth), The baby boom generation starts in 1946, and the height of the Civil Rights movement was the Mid 60s, but it continued into the 70s putting some of the boomers in their late teens and early 20s, the civil rights movement got a lot of support from many younger whites (but I can say the majority of our parents were not fans at all) and you are right there were probably more people marching from the boomers parents generation than the boomers because of their early age (I stand corrected), but there were early boomers involved, and when I was in school in the 60s and 70s myself and most of my peers revered Dr. King and the work he did for civil rights.  I did suggest in a previous post that they could use their celebrity status in a less divisive manner to get there message across, but my suggestion of them  holding press conferences, organizing marches, etc. was shot down by the posters in the thread as being ineffective, so no I don't have additional suggestions!!   

The press conferences are ineffective because no one listens to those.  Organizing marches would take more time and effort than a professional athlete would have.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Greg Waits on Sep 29, 2017, 10:29PM
IMO, the movement is only divisive because the people opposed to it are the ones made uncomfortable by the message. They don't or won't acknowledge that there is a problem with the way blacks are treated by the justice system (mainly law enforcement) and they don't want to deal with it.

There wouldn't be so much bitching and moaning about so-called disrespecting the flag if the message was received for what it is.

It is a legitimate issue, and protesting via news conferences won't get a damn thing done. As was already stated no one listens to those. But a nationally televised event that millions watch? Yes, that gets attention.

The issue is serious. The inequality issue has to be addressed. It won't go away. People (of all colors) are disgusted by the steady stream of incidents when innocent people get shot dead by bad cops who ultimately face zero consequences. It is NOT right and it has to stop.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Baron von Bone on Sep 30, 2017, 07:14AM
IMO, the movement is only divisive because the people opposed to it are the ones made uncomfortable by the message. They don't or won't acknowledge that there is a problem with the way blacks are treated by the justice system (mainly law enforcement) and they don't want to deal with it.
 
There wouldn't be so much bitching and moaning about so-called disrespecting the flag if the message was received for what it is.
 
It is a legitimate issue, and protesting via news conferences won't get a damn thing done. As was already stated no one listens to those. But a nationally televised event that millions watch? Yes, that gets attention.
 
The issue is serious. The inequality issue has to be addressed. It won't go away. People (of all colors) are disgusted by the steady stream of incidents when innocent people get shot dead by bad cops who ultimately face zero consequences. It is NOT right and it has to stop.

There's also a huge form over substance issue behind it all--people who revere symbols often without even understanding the principles behind them , at all. It's just a very important part of their identity and that of their chosen community. So it's very deeply personal, but they don't have much if any sense of it any further or other than that. So all this talk about the principles behind the symbol are effectively meaningless to such types. Radar's raised some valid issues to factor in on the semi-anti side (he's very clear in that he supports the actual cause and that he's well aware of the principles behind the symbol, but that he's also very invested in the symbol itself and takes using it for demonstration purposes a bit personally. I get the sense he's kind of on the edge of the anti-world and mostly in favor of the protestors personally, just not real happy with their methods.
 
The former types need to be understood better, but yeah, that mindset is quite a problem--it's the depraved My Country Right or Wrong and there's a strange notion that correcting flaws requires criticism and criticism is anti- and hateful, and of course you have to acknowledge flaws, which is betrayal, so protesting anything accepted as 'Murcan by this group is on the spectrum of treason. This is an incredibly foolish mentality. The Radars out there are a whole different animal though, and hopefully at least as large a group as the Deplorables. An adult conversation can happen with the Radar types, and we can even learn from each other and get along. Seems to my recollection, which may be off, the Radar types are more like what conservatives used to be when our society was far more functional--a solid part of the mix that made it all work.
 
Form over substance does seem to be a pretty good litmus test to parse rational, honorable conservatives from The Deplorables. It's very important we do this, because rational, honorable conservatives may be the only translators The Deplorables are capable of actually hearing.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Andrew Meronek on Sep 30, 2017, 11:38AM
see the number of adult blacks with felonies, and how many state limit felon voting rights.

I don't generally get too involved in politics, but this is one that to me seems blatantly and obviously terrible. No criminal prosecution should be able to take away someone's voting rights. The vote is one of the few ways we have on making sure that the definition of a "felon" doesn't expand over time to become a tool of oppression.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Blowero on Sep 30, 2017, 01:12PM
"The way I see it, unless we each conform, unless we obey orders, unless we follow our leaders blindly, there is no possible way we can remain free."

-Frank Burns


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: badger on Sep 30, 2017, 07:20PM
Enough of the Tomfoolery.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKCVS57j284

 :good:


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Piano man on Sep 30, 2017, 07:38PM
Enough of the Tomfoolery.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKCVS57j284

 :good:


That's impressive!


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: badger on Sep 30, 2017, 07:42PM
And At Her Zenith!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_lCmBvYMRs

 :good:


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: BGuttman on Sep 30, 2017, 08:14PM
And At Her Zenith!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_lCmBvYMRs

 :good:


In 4/4 time, no less.  The original song is in 3/4.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: badger on Sep 30, 2017, 08:27PM
Blasphemer.
 :-0

 


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: BGuttman on Sep 30, 2017, 08:40PM
Call me unpatriotic if you will, but some of the renditions of SSB I've been forced to endure at sporting events make me cringe.

Sometimes it's just poor musicianship while other times the performers take such liberties with the song that I can barely recognize it.  I really didn't appreciate Jimi Hendrix "shredding" it the way he did.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Andrew Meronek on Sep 30, 2017, 09:27PM
I thought Renee Fleming did a good job, too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1h4zfO8Ais


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: badger on Sep 30, 2017, 09:35PM
Excellent!

 :good:


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Bruce the budgie on Sep 30, 2017, 09:46PM
Here is Matt Haimovitz (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mbpcSG9p4pE) telling a Nightline host about some of the motivation behind his cover of the Hendrix version, on acoustic cello. There are full videos to be heard on YT, if that's your cup of tea.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: badger on Oct 01, 2017, 05:15PM
No more NFL...I have made the change!

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2017/09/27/lingerie-football-league-declares-stand-for-national-anthem.html

 :pant:


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: JasonDonnelly on Oct 01, 2017, 06:46PM
No more NFL...I have made the change!

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2017/09/27/lingerie-football-league-declares-stand-for-national-anthem.html

 :pant:

Geez, first NASCAR, and now the LFL? How many more organizations will alienate their vast liberal followings?

.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
(It's a joke)


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Piano man on Oct 01, 2017, 07:26PM
No more NFL...I have made the change!

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2017/09/27/lingerie-football-league-declares-stand-for-national-anthem.html

 :pant:

What a lot of horse ****. Someone kneels for the national anthem and that's more important than the fact that the players are being brain-damaged. We've turned into a nation of idiots.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: badger on Oct 01, 2017, 07:39PM
We've turned into a nation of idiots.


Exactly.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Greg Waits on Oct 01, 2017, 08:15PM
Who cares what the lingerie football players do or think?



Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: BGuttman on Oct 01, 2017, 08:28PM
Who cares what the lingerie football players do or think?



It's a way to watch boobs.  Maybe for boobs as well :razz:


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Baron von Bone on Oct 02, 2017, 04:20AM
We've turned into a nation of idiots.

Fools due to extreme self-righteousness, selective vapidity, and extraordinary levels of in-group dishonesty (most notably in the capacity for self-deception).
 
That's the dominant (deplorable) character the US is showing the world right now, and thus what our national symbols currently stand for. That'll be the deal until we recognize the validity of the criticism and find a way to effectively treat this mental STD.
 
We're increasingly becoming a nation of intellectually and psychologically adolescent ideologues with an increasingly histrionic sense of entitlement, and a deep need for the comically absurd sense of being persecuted in order to internally justify our underlying self-absorption.
 
If given a Picture of Dorian Grey, most getting the really bad news would simply choose to believe the settings were off in some way that's self-serving/affirming--extreme intellectual cowardice.
 
Actually that's all about the far right (and the extremely far left), and not so much about the rest of us. But the overall picture has shifted this way a great deal over the last few decades as ideologues increasingly drive discourse and get most of the attention (just as we see in here). Narcissism (in-group entitlement) and proactive self-oblivion seems to be what's driving the dysfunctional divisiveness.
 
To be fair though, a significant degree of that is just being human (more of us just usually do far better about behaving like adults--with at least a somewhat functional level of self-awareness and empathy--and managing it to a reasonable degree), but for a whole lot of people the self-absorption and the capacity for self-deception and our natural self-affirming bias has all been amped up to the point that many of us have no trouble at all with imposing our ill-considered views upon others even if it harms them for none but purely self-validating reasons.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: B0B on Oct 02, 2017, 09:36AM
IMO, the movement is only divisive because the people opposed to it are the ones made uncomfortable by the message. They don't or won't acknowledge that there is a problem with the way blacks are treated by the justice system (mainly law enforcement) and they don't want to deal with it.

There wouldn't be so much bitching and moaning about so-called disrespecting the flag if the message was received for what it is.

It is a legitimate issue, and protesting via news conferences won't get a damn thing done. As was already stated no one listens to those. But a nationally televised event that millions watch? Yes, that gets attention.

The issue is serious. The inequality issue has to be addressed. It won't go away. People (of all colors) are disgusted by the steady stream of incidents when innocent people get shot dead by bad cops who ultimately face zero consequences. It is NOT right and it has to stop.

Indeed.

They have no problem with breaking the flag code, either on the field or in trump rallies.

They had no problem with Trump simply standing there during the anthem, instead of hand over heart they demand on the field.

And they had no problem with Trump directly attacking veterans and their service or their families.

They don't even have an issue with veterans holding up their service in a way that directly disrespects their own service.


Simply two things are in play:

1) he is our president and we should obey!
2) black people already have equal rights, I don't want to hear any more complaints. After all, them black boys on the field make millions of dollars, and we did just have our first black president. Hush up and let me continue in my comfort.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Piano man on Oct 24, 2017, 10:42AM
In case anyone thought the Trump voters' objection to the anthem protests were genuinely motivated by respect for the flag, this photo puts that to rest. It shows a white guy with an "I Stand For the National Anthem" T-shirt n, sitting on the ground using an American flag as a beach towel.

I'm linking to the Snopes site for two reasons--when I saw the photo, I thought it was fake, and because it's an uncropped version that shows the fans surrounding him, apparently taking no offense. Apparently we're expected to believe that these people are genuinely shocked, appalled, disturbed, and offended by someone quietly taking a knee during the anthem, but not too worked up when someone puts the flag on the ground and plants his ass on it. What a bunch of phonies.


https://www.snopes.com/football-fan-flag-stand-national-anthem/

Maybe some smart person could post the image. I can never figure out how to do it.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: BGuttman on Oct 24, 2017, 10:59AM
Here's the image:

(https://us-east-1.tchyn.io/snopes-production/uploads/2017/10/Deadspin-full-flag-sitting-guy_blur-1.jpg)

Note that this seems to be a real flag, and violates another aspect of flag code:  The flag must not rest on anything underneath it, including ground, water, floors, or merchandise.  I guess an exception for this is coffins of veterans.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: B0B on Oct 24, 2017, 11:38AM
I would think Trump disrespecting gold star families and calling a recent widow a liar would kinda defeat the credibility of his whole respect the troops thing...


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: bhcordova on Oct 25, 2017, 08:15AM
B0B, that's fake news.  Just ask his supporters.  They will blindly follow him to whatever hell he wants to make of this country.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: SensitiveJohn on Oct 25, 2017, 11:19PM
Jeff Flake stood up and voted against America again today.  His relationship with The Trump is irrelevant if he continues to help The Trump weaken our country and the American people.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: robcat2075 on Oct 26, 2017, 08:35AM
Why has there been no outrage over this disrespect for the flag?

This is a clear violation of 4 U.S. Code ß 8 - Respect for flag (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/4/8)

If the flag is so sacred to the military why are they doing this?

(http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/20150511_patriot.jpg)


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: BGuttman on Oct 26, 2017, 08:38AM
That's actually OK.  Note that the flag is not touching the ground.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Russ White on Oct 26, 2017, 08:58AM
That's actually OK.  Note that the flag is not touching the ground.


(c) The flag should never be carried flat or horizontally, but always aloft and free.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Baron von Bone on Oct 26, 2017, 09:23AM
(c) The flag should never be carried flat or horizontally, but always aloft and free.

Obviously "carried" has a particular meaning here. Otherwise there'd be no way to transport US flags that aren't aloft and free ... eh?
 
I suspect it means when it's carried ceremonially or as a guidon.
 
The picture shows a flag being displayed as part of a show rather than carried, which implies travel.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: robcat2075 on Oct 26, 2017, 09:30AM
Read that whole flag code; it has crossed over from proper display guidelines into idolatry.

We're supposed to regard the flag as a living being?


Quote
Obviously "carried" has a particular meaning here.

No, I don't see it's obvious at all.

Quote
Otherwise there'd be no way to transport US flags that aren't aloft and free ... eh?

Flags are normally stored and transported folded. In that tricorn hat shape.
 
Quote
I suspect it means when it's carried ceremonially or as a guidon.
 
The picture shows a flag being displayed as part of a show rather than carried, which implies travel.

If that's the needle we thread to OK this violation then we can certainly find a similar needle for kneeling at the national anthem.



Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Baron von Bone on Oct 26, 2017, 09:36AM
If that's the needle we thread to OK this violation then we can certainly find a similar needle for kneeling at the national anthem.

No needles needed in either case.
 
Your team is good to go. The other team is good to go on this particular point in the particular instance pictured.
 
The enemy doesn't have to be wrong all the time to be wrong when it's important.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: robcat2075 on Oct 26, 2017, 10:09AM
And if technicalities are the deciding point, they do appear to be not merely holding the flag in place (displaying) but moving (carrying) it at 4:00 in this video (https://www.sbnation.com/2015/11/4/9670302/nfl-paid-patriotism-troops-mcain-flake-report-million)

I haven't done an exhaustive video search but I seem to recall flags that did not cover the entire field actually being moved as part of the dramatic choreography.




Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Baron von Bone on Oct 26, 2017, 11:11AM
And if technicalities are the deciding point, they do appear to be not merely holding the flag in place (displaying) but moving (carrying) it at 4:00 in this video (https://www.sbnation.com/2015/11/4/9670302/nfl-paid-patriotism-troops-mcain-flake-report-million)
 
I haven't done an exhaustive video search but I seem to recall flags that did not cover the entire field actually being moved as part of the dramatic choreography.

You're being misguidedly pedantic, and I don't care anyway--I doubt many do. They're not violating the flag code and it's not by threading a needle.
 
And I'm on Your Team regarding the bigger issue here. Taking a knee is showing respect while protesting (even if they disagree with you/me/us/them), but I'd accept and defend bearing an arse as a disrespectful form of protest just as well (although that would be illegal and the arse bearer should expect to pay the price for having one's arse out in public). Protesters' rights are protected under the same legislated ideals the flag is supposed to represent and thus that alleged lovers of the flag should revere, but clearly very little of the anxiety allegedly about disrespecting the flag has nothing to do with what the flag is about, but rather whatever personal baggage the anti-protester has chosen to haul around and impose upon others. Protesters are under no obligation to be respectful to begin with. They're protesting. The Constitution doesn't require respectful protest in order that it be protected speech.
 
Those who really cherish the ideals the flag stands for (ideally stands for anyway--certainly not under the current cartoon administration which makes the flag represent an infantile, narcissistic mob boss mentality) will support those who demonstrate those ideals, like protesters. That's why Radar type anti-protesters may take offense based upon the respect issue while also supporting the right to protest, and DD type anti-protesters may give the same nuance lip service (or not) but are actually unwittingly completely against the actual ideals the flag stands for--they're too taken with the fancy piece of cloth to appreciate its actual substance. Their arguments are generally just noises they make to hurl malignance at the enemy--they often quite obviously don't understand their own words or the ideals they name when making those spiteful noises--the words and phrases just sound satisfying to them when fired at the enemy.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: robcat2075 on Oct 26, 2017, 11:21AM
The code says don't carry it horizontally.

They're carrying it horizontally.

Open and shut case.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Piano man on Oct 26, 2017, 11:22AM
Putting aside the niceties of the Flag Code, the thing that's abundantly clear is that the people who claim to object to the protests on the basis of respect for the flag are largely full of ****.

I'm not going to generalize from the one blockhead sitting on the flag to all the people who complain about the protests. But he was degrading the flag in a crowded area and no one seemed even a little disturbed by it. So I call BS.

This one image makes clear that people are objecting to the protests because they don't like the message--the degradation of the flag is plainly irrelevant.

Interesting to wonder if bystanders would have reacted differently if it were a black person with a Black Lives Matter t-shirt sitting on the flag instead of a white guy with a "I Stand for the Anthem" T-shirt. You can accuse me of playing the race card, but this all about race.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Baron von Bone on Oct 26, 2017, 11:30AM
The code says don't carry it horizontally.
 
They're carrying it horizontally.
 
Open and shut case.

Yes ... to a pedant who is ignoring that codes are legalistic in nature and tend to define terms very specifically, and the fact that using "carry" in that sense for this purpose clearly makes no sense at all. I don't think you can even make a flag without "carrying" it horizontally under this dogmatic context.
 
But yeah, if we just casually assume "carry" means to hold, case closed. It's just obvious that's all about a personal agenda and doesn't actually serve any other function.
 
Those with a bit more sober nature or just intellectual self-discipline may not choose to be so hasty, and certainly not to invest so heavily in such obviously ideological minutiae, however.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Baron von Bone on Oct 26, 2017, 11:34AM
The code says don't carry it horizontally.
 
They're carrying it horizontally.
 
Open and shut case.

Yes ... to a pedant who is ignoring that codes are very legalistic in nature and tend to define terms very specifically, and the fact that using "carry" in that sense for this purpose clearly makes no sense at all. I don't think you can even make a flag without "carrying" it horizontally under this dogmatically pedantic context.
 
But yeah, if we just casually assume "carry" means to hold, case closed. It's just obvious that's all about a personal agenda.
 
Those with a bit more sober nature or just intellectual self-discipline may not choose to be so hasty, and certainly not to invest so heavily in such obviously ideological minutiae, however.
 
 --
 
And it turns out that even pedants lacking a bit more sober nature in any given case can still be right even if they're being hasty and/or dogmatic about it ... heh:
Quote
Is displaying the flag horizontally, as before a football game, a violation? (http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/faq.htm)
 
Yes. It is contrary to the Flag Code, Section 8c, which reads:
 
    "The flag should never be carried flat or horizontally, but always aloft and free."

Although I'm still skeptical, because it looks like the same pedantic reading may be the entire justification for this position, and it's pretty hard to imagine the military not only sanctioning but officially participating in frequent ceremonial displays that violate the flag code--once or a few times before the error is recognized? ... sure. Repeatedly and frequently over many years? ... I doubt it. But I'd have to say the available info certainly favors Robcat's take, and legalese certainly can't always be accused of making sense.
 
Also ... don't let The Donald find out about this (we already know he hasn't the first clue about it--or didn't when he managed to grab the office)!
Quote
10. Modification of rules and customs by President
 
Any rule or custom pertaining to the display of the flag of the United States of America, set forth herein, may be altered, modified, or repealed, or additional rules with respect thereto may be prescribed, by the Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces of the United States, whenever he deems it to be appropriate or desirable; and any such alteration or additional rule shall be set forth in a proclamation.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: robcat2075 on Oct 26, 2017, 02:01PM
These guys are definitely carrying... exactly the thing the flag code says your not supposed to do:

"A group of Veterans and their family members carry a giant flag down the Main Street of Ferndale, California during the 2015 annual Memorial Day Parade. The parade has happened annually since the late 1880s."

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ae/Carrying_The_Flag_Ferndale_Memorial_Day_Parade.JPG/640px-Carrying_The_Flag_Ferndale_Memorial_Day_Parade.JPG)


"The city of Marietta's Fourth in the Park celebration begins Tuesday, July 4, 2017 at 10 a.m.... Entries include marching units from the city of Marietta, civic organizations, beauty queens, scouts and local businesses.
(http://atlanta.kidsoutandabout.com/sites/default/files/28001447122_374affe86f_z_0.jpg)



"Members of the Camp Pendleton Young Marines round the corner in onto Forest Avenue carrying old glory during the 43rd Annual Laguna Beach Patriot's Day Parade in 2009."
(http://www.ocregister.com/wp-content/uploads/migration/mj7/mj7fwi-b781074674z.120130305123028000gh41cliv5.1.jpg?w=620)



"Crew of USS Cole carrying huge American flag in 4th of July parade Benjamin Franklin Parkway"
(http://l450v.alamy.com/450v/ad0w3e/crew-of-uss-cole-carrying-huge-american-flag-in-4th-of-july-parade-ad0w3e.jpg)


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Piano man on Oct 26, 2017, 03:20PM
BvB, I think the point that Rob is making is that this mania for 'flag-correctness' is entirely message-based and situational. I think he's right on this one.

If something is perceived as being patriotic (or mostly white), the insistence on the flag code goes out the window. The guy sitting on the flag didn't draw objections because he's white and self-identifies as patriotic. If a similar guy had taken a knee during the anthem to memorialize Pat Tillman (before the current protests) you wouldn't have heard a peep.

I've seen American flag mudflaps on a truck! Do you think the people who object to the kneel-takers would bother to call that guy's boss and object to a disgusting display of the flag? Of course not, because he's perceived to be on their side. That's why they don't care about the guy sitting on the flag. If it were a black guy with a BLM shirt, the flag code would suddenly be important again.

I owned a restaurant that served ribs on the menu, so we put out wet wipes. One day I came in and the new wet wipes had an American flag on the wrapper. I sent them back when I saw them, but no one who got them in the meantime complained about the degrading of our flag in that manner. Not one person.

The objection to the anthem-kneelers is purely regarding the message. As is amply demonstrated by all these examples, no one gives a **** about the flag code except as an excuse to oppose black protest.



Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Baron von Bone on Oct 26, 2017, 05:55PM
These guys are definitely carrying... exactly the thing the flag code says your not supposed to do ...

Yup ... I'd agree those are inarguably cases of people carrying flags flat and/or horizontally, but I wouldn't be so sure in legal terms.
 
The technicalities really don't matter though. It's pretty damn clear that a whole lot of those weeping and wailing and gnashing their teeth over someone who is clearly being respectful by kneeling (at the request of a former Green Beret who clearly understands he served in part to uphold the ideals that provide protection for this form of speech/expression and supports Kaepernick's protest (https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/a-green-beret-who-played-in-the-nfl-writes-colin-kaepernick-a-letter/)) rather than standing for the national anthem aren't really going all histrionic because he's kneeling rather than standing, but because he's protesting, or because Their Team is going histrionic, or because they've found an excuse to aim and release their pent up rage ... etc. Maybe just because they don't feel they've been deplorable enough lately. I expect race has a lot to do with it in many of these cases--probably most, and I suspect most by a long shot.
 
We agree completely on that part of it I expect.
 
Matters of legalese like flag codes are sketchy bases for holding anything but a legal position on something though, because the law means what the courts say it means, bottom line, and that can change, and it doesn't always make sense.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Ellrod on Oct 26, 2017, 07:53PM
Just gimme mah damn football!!!!


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: robcat2075 on Oct 27, 2017, 08:30AM
If someone has a court ruling that defines "carry" or "horizontal" as something other than their normal, conventional meanings that would be illuminating but I think "carry" and "horizontal" mean what they mean. It doesn't give exemptions for good intentions.

The flag code defines respectful treatment of the flag, those people aren't following it and yet... they're getting a free pass on it.

A clear case of how society applies rules to some and not to others.

I bet if some black action group was in a Memorial Day Parade doing the same thing, that "horizontal" rule would get rediscovered real quick.



Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Baron von Bone on Oct 27, 2017, 09:21AM
If someone has a court ruling that defines "carry" or "horizontal" as something other than their normal, conventional meanings that would be illuminating but I think "carry" and "horizontal" mean what they mean. It doesn't give exemptions for good intentions.
That's just failing to remember how legalese so often works.
 
I think you're fairly pro-gun control, so consider the 2nd Amendment as defined by the courts and maybe you'll remember how important definitions of terms and layered nuance is to law. It has to be that way to a large extent--people will choose to define things in the way that serves them best, and many have no sense of reason or propriety about it. So people and their agendas are involved, and that inherently screws things all up. That's just life amongst the humans.
 
The moment you decide it's just common sense, you're practically begging the law to screw you. Just as with a con artist, as soon as you feel like you're hard to fool, the con artist begins to really like you.
 
You may well be right about your take on this code, but you also seem invested in being naive about the nature of legalese in this case. Legal code means what the highest court that's ruled on that code says it means. Common sense and the plain, simple meanings of terms often have nothing to do with it. Do not count on legal precedents to back you up on an ethical or moral position. Legal/lawful absolutely does not equal ethical or moral. People just like to point to established legal code that supports their position as if that validates it as the right/ethical/moral position when it happens to work out for them. We're all inclined to do that sort of thing. We need to learn to resist that inclination. It often turns out the law supports unethical/immoral/bad behaviors.
 
The flag code defines respectful treatment of the flag, those people aren't following it and yet... they're getting a free pass on it.
 
A clear case of how society applies rules to some and not to others.
 
I bet if some black action group was in a Memorial Day Parade doing the same thing, that "horizontal" rule would get rediscovered real quick.
On this, the substance, we agree completely.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: B0B on Oct 27, 2017, 10:11AM
Seriously?

You want to delve into semantics of legalese in a code that is not legally binding?

And want to compare transporting a flag to a flag that is being brought out to be a centerpiece during the anthem, and the object to which people should face? Because a flag during transport and a flag used in the anthem are anything alike per what is going on at the time?

The semantics are just plain stupid.


In the case of the NFL, the flag is carried out of to the field as part of the anthem. It is the flag that is honored. And as the symbol of our country, it has the additional symbolism that it should fly freely... as in our "free" country and the "freedoms" it represents and protects.

It ain't rocket science.

Nor does holding it fast while saluting and singing to it as part of honoring the country actually respect the symbolism inherent.

Ain't legal, just disrespectful. Also is very much picking and choosing.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Radar on Oct 30, 2017, 05:51AM
Keeping in mind the flag code is a guideline and not law (except for flying it with the field of stars down, which is a signal of distress, and has been treated in courts in the past as akin to a false 911 call). I think in the case of the flag for me it boils down to intent.  If you treat the flag with honor and respect you are not deliberately disrespecting it or our nation (although you may be violating the guidelines for proper display and handling of the flag).  If you've ever been to a military funeral the flag is held up over the casket and walked away from the casket and folded, if you wanted to get all legalistic about the flag code it would have been violated when they carried the flag away from the casket.  Back to the real issue I've actually always been on the fence regarding the take a knee protest of the NFL, I personally have always supported the cause, and I didn't particularly care for them doing the protest during the national anthem.  Yes I'm aware of all of the ways people disregard the flag code on a daily basis, and most of it is done out of ignorance of the flag code and apathy and not a desire to disrespect the country.  Some people see the take a knee as a deliberate act of disrespect for the flag, they don't get the nuance of they aren't disrespecting the flag but are just trying to get their message across, even though they may agree with the message they can still find fault with the method of delivery.  After giving it some consideration, and quite a bit from reading people's views on here I've come to the conclusion that the intent of those participating in the take a knee protest isn't about disrespecting the flag or the country, but a way to get their message out that some people in this country are still being treated differently because of their race by the police and others.  Although I've come to understand that the take a knee protest isn't about disrespect, there are many others out there (including many veterans) who don't see it that way.  The flag is a powerful symbol of our country, and you have to expect that some people aren't going to get the nuance of the protest not being about the flag.  Just because someone doesn't get the nuance of the protest, and feels strongly about the flag being disrespected doesn't necessarily make them bad people, or racist, etc.  Yes the take a knee protest seems to be effective, in that it is getting people talking about the protest.  You can say that these people that don't get it are closed minded, and to some extent I agree that they have missed the message because of the means of delivery and that can be defined as closed minded.  I can also say from what I've observed on this thread that there are many on the side of the protest who are just as closed minded when it comes to understanding the views of those who find the form of the protest offensive.       


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Baron von Bone on Oct 31, 2017, 05:15AM
Seriously?
Seems this subtopic was resolved a bit back, but if you can put away your ruler I can help you to understand what just happened over the short tangent to the discussion ...
 
You want to delve into semantics of legalese in a code that is not legally binding?
Me? No.
 
That's the nature of legalese.
 
And want to compare transporting a flag to a flag that is being brought out to be a centerpiece during the anthem, and the object to which people should face? Because a flag during transport and a flag used in the anthem are anything alike per what is going on at the time?
 
The semantics are just plain stupid.
Now you're beginning to get a key part of the point, and maybe to start to understand the inherent situation with legalese ...
 
In the case of the NFL, the flag is carried out of to the field as part of the anthem. It is the flag that is honored. And as the symbol of our country, it has the additional symbolism that it should fly freely... as in our "free" country and the "freedoms" it represents and protects.
 
It ain't rocket science.
... or maybe not at all.
 
Legalese isn't rocket science--it makes far less sense. Even lawyers have to hire lawyers for other specialties of law, sometimes specialists within the same larger specialty. If you go into a case of legalese thinking "this isn't rocket science" then someone wanting a dupe to take advantage of wants to talk to you for sure.
 
Nor does holding it fast while saluting and singing to it as part of honoring the country actually respect the symbolism inherent.
 
Ain't legal, just disrespectful. Also is very much picking and choosing.
Sounds like My Team doubling down and digging in to me. You can relax though--we're on the same team on this one.
 
And don't feel bad, most people are unable to manage that very well--it's a perfectly normal human weakness.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: B0B on Oct 31, 2017, 05:23AM
Legalese isn't rocket science--it makes far less sense. Even lawyers have to hire lawyers for other specialties of law, sometimes specialists within the same larger specialty. If you go into a case of legalese thinking "this isn't rocket science" then someone wanting a dupe to take advantage of wants to talk to you for sure.
Again Byron, the flag code is a nonbinding set of advisory rules for display and care of the national flag. No lawyers. No legalese.

Just your overly semantic self trying to argue a point you know is already lost.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Baron von Bone on Oct 31, 2017, 07:31AM
Again Byron, the flag code is a nonbinding set of advisory rules for display and care of the national flag. No lawyers. No legalese.

So are those last two comments denying or acknowledging the fact that legalese is not exclusively limited to legal documentation?
 
Never mind though. I don't really care. Because it's really about that ridiculous ruler you can't keep in your ... pocket, and sorry, but that doesn't interest me at all.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Baron von Bone on Oct 31, 2017, 07:47AM
Back to the real issue ...
Yes!
 
A point that became my main one in that little tangent.
 
 
 
Keeping in mind the flag code is a guideline and not law (except for flying it with the field of stars down, which is a signal of distress, and has been treated in courts in the past as akin to a false 911 call). I think in the case of the flag for me it boils down to intent.  If you treat the flag with honor and respect you are not deliberately disrespecting it or our nation (although you may be violating the guidelines for proper display and handling of the flag).  If you've ever been to a military funeral the flag is held up over the casket and walked away from the casket and folded, if you wanted to get all legalistic about the flag code it would have been violated when they carried the flag away from the casket.  Back to the real issue I've actually always been on the fence regarding the take a knee protest of the NFL, I personally have always supported the cause, and I didn't particularly care for them doing the protest during the national anthem.  Yes I'm aware of all of the ways people disregard the flag code on a daily basis, and most of it is done out of ignorance of the flag code and apathy and not a desire to disrespect the country.  Some people see the take a knee as a deliberate act of disrespect for the flag, they don't get the nuance of they aren't disrespecting the flag but are just trying to get their message across, even though they may agree with the message they can still find fault with the method of delivery.  After giving it some consideration, and quite a bit from reading people's views on here I've come to the conclusion that the intent of those participating in the take a knee protest isn't about disrespecting the flag or the country, but a way to get their message out that some people in this country are still being treated differently because of their race by the police and others.  Although I've come to understand that the take a knee protest isn't about disrespect, there are many others out there (including many veterans) who don't see it that way.  The flag is a powerful symbol of our country, and you have to expect that some people aren't going to get the nuance of the protest not being about the flag.  Just because someone doesn't get the nuance of the protest, and feels strongly about the flag being disrespected doesn't necessarily make them bad people, or racist, etc.  Yes the take a knee protest seems to be effective, in that it is getting people talking about the protest.  You can say that these people that don't get it are closed minded, and to some extent I agree that they have missed the message because of the means of delivery and that can be defined as closed minded.  I can also say from what I've observed on this thread that there are many on the side of the protest who are just as closed minded when it comes to understanding the views of those who find the form of the protest offensive.
I couldn't agree more.
 
I do suspect you're being very kind to a large number of those who forcefully (dogmatically) "defend the flag" (or presume they are) by counter-protesting or just expressing their beef with the protests/protestors and couching it in the framework of the last refuge of the scoundrel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_views_of_Samuel_Johnson#The_Patriot). But it's also very important to keep the strongest points of The Enemy in mind when considering such issue--anything reasonable we can do to suppress our natural dig in and double down and fling poo at the Enemy inclinations, we need to do. A fundamental principle of logic is to withhold judgment until you have no reasonable choice. This goes all the more for these kinds of social situations. We need to give people at least as much leeway as we give purely logical/critical conclusions outside of our own inclinations (assuming of course we're decent critical thinkers with a functional degree of intellectual humility).
 
The mentality the demonstrates these principles in practice is always striking to me, and I appreciate it tremendously.
 
Glad to have you around, Man!


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Russ White on Oct 31, 2017, 07:47AM
Why has there been no outrage over this disrespect for the flag?

This is a clear violation of 4 U.S. Code ß 8 - Respect for flag (https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/4/8)

If the flag is so sacred to the military why are they doing this?

(http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user3303/imageroot/20150511_patriot.jpg)

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10214043073169373&set=p.10214043073169373&type=3&theater


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Baron von Bone on Oct 31, 2017, 08:01AM
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10214043073169373&set=p.10214043073169373&type=3&theater

Wow ... damn.


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: elmsandr on Oct 31, 2017, 09:24AM
Being a marching band guy, been a part of many of these "Big A** Flag" roll outs, that is quite unusual.  Normally, there is one guy who's job it is to make sure that all the folks holding the BAF know what they are doing and know not to let it hit the ground.  He usually acts like a drill sergeant if there are any non military folks in on the job as well.

Truly surprising to see that, I'm curious if it is a real image.

Cheers,
Andy


Title: Re: Disgraceful NFL
Post by: Radar on Oct 31, 2017, 10:34AM

Wow ... damn.
What he said!!!  If I had been there to see this, I would have been upset that this was allowed to happen.  This is an extreme example of ignorance, or just total disregard for decorum regarding the flag.  I've been involved on active duty in the Navy, and as an Army Reserve Bandsman, as well as belonging to both the VFW and American Legion in many ceremonies involving the flag, and I've seen and ignored many minor violations of Flag etiquette, but this one would be impossible for me to observe, and not bring it to the attention of someone that it was not acceptable to place a flag on the ground on the sidelines at an event such as this.  I've in my life never seen a flag deliberately placed on the ground (accidents do happen), other than as part of a protest.  With the appropriate number of people it is possible to fold a flag of this size without it hitting the ground.  It does require coordination to pull off and some forethought, there is no reason for this to have taken place.