The Trombone Forum

Practice Break => Purely Politics => Topic started by: slide advantage on Jan 24, 2017, 11:04AM



Title: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Jan 24, 2017, 11:04AM
God help us all.

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/01/trump-aides-cant-stop-blabbing-about-how-hes-a-madman.html?mid=fb-share-di


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Jan 24, 2017, 11:16AM
An absolute nut-bar.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on Jan 24, 2017, 11:16AM
Damn I hope that's false...

I know his first weekend has been unhinged, but wow I hope he can pull himself together. Otherwise, A guy with incredibly thin skin is going to find it "interesting" to hold what is probably one of the most criticized positions on the globe.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: badger on Jan 24, 2017, 03:24PM
Here is the Leaker:

http://ijr.com/2017/01/785665-secret-service-agent-implies-she-wouldnt-take-a-bullet-for-trump-its-now-backfiring-big-time/

Shhh! Don’t tell anybody but I have good info Wynonna is going to kick Ashley’s  *** ( and she can I tell ya! ) for her unhinged remarks at the vagina march. Again, Shhh!

None of this should be considered fact from the  Poster or Forum. I disavow any connection with above post or production of such...just a quirk of the interwebs.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Jan 24, 2017, 03:40PM
Here is the Leaker:

http://ijr.com/2017/01/785665-secret-service-agent-implies-she-wouldnt-take-a-bullet-for-trump-its-now-backfiring-big-time/


No, there's nothing in that Secret Service agent article that correlates with what is said in the New Yorker article.

She's not "the leaker."  But you knew that.



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: badger on Jan 24, 2017, 03:43PM
Shhh!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Andrew Meronek on Jan 24, 2017, 03:53PM
Oh, joy, the click bait thread.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Jan 24, 2017, 05:55PM
"We’re less than four full days into the Trump presidency, with (barring death, impeachment, resignation, or coup) at least 1,461 to go."


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Jan 24, 2017, 08:52PM
Oh, joy, the
latest
click bait thread.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Jan 25, 2017, 03:38AM
Here is the Leaker:

http://ijr.com/2017/01/785665-secret-service-agent-implies-she-wouldnt-take-a-bullet-for-trump-its-now-backfiring-big-time/

Shhh! Don’t tell anybody but I have good info Wynonna is going to kick Ashley’s  *** ( and she can I tell ya! ) for her unhinged remarks at the vagina march. Again, Shhh!

None of this should be considered fact from the  Poster or Forum. I disavow any connection with above post or production of such...just a quirk of the interwebs.


I am trying in vain to find any connection at all between any of that and the topic.

If it's true that Ashley Judd is 'unhinged', I probably won't vote for her for president.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on Jan 25, 2017, 04:48AM
I am trying in vain to find any connection at all between any of that and the topic.

If it's true that Ashley Judd is 'unhinged', I probably won't vote for her for president.

Typical "jello to the wall" right -wing response. Can't give legitimate argument to the debate, move the goal post by changing the subject.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Jan 25, 2017, 08:30AM
Typical "jello to the wall" right -wing response. Can't give legitimate argument to the debate, move the goal post by changing the subject.

Any noise will do to prevent an unanswered "score" against the home team--doesn't have to really even mean anything, just has to be noise that sounds like objection, and it counts as an Alternative Fact™ response to the issue for those who have ... well, whose intellectual/ideological posture allows them to function in the realm of Alternative Facts™.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Jan 25, 2017, 12:18PM
Your Basic Primer on Why Trump's Voter Fraud Claims Are B***s*** (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/your-basic-primer-on-why-trump-s-voter-fraud-claims-are-********)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on Jan 25, 2017, 12:41PM
Your Basic Primer on Why Trump's Voter Fraud Claims Are B***s*** (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/your-basic-primer-on-why-trump-s-voter-fraud-claims-are-********)
On the ironic side, if the numbers were off that much, it would likely impact a number of race outcomes, including Trump's own. Shoot, we'd be best to just conduct the vote again. Esp once you factor in the hacking mess. Think he'd like that?

Nah, this is just blind vanity on Trump's part. We must all think him as great as he thinks himself.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Jan 25, 2017, 01:22PM
Nah, this is just blind vanity on Trump's part. We must all think him as great as he thinks himself.

Yup. This is what it looks like when a fool presumes that reality must accommodate the fool's personal sentiments, and only other similarly-minded fools have an adequately casual relationship with the truth/honesty to convince themselves they don't see it.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on Jan 25, 2017, 01:43PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/compost/wp/2017/01/24/the-true-correct-story-of-what-happened-at-donald-trumps-inauguration/?utm_term=.01ad91715e1f&wpisrc=nl_opinions&wpmm=1


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Jan 26, 2017, 11:52AM
You may have read that Sergei Mikhailov, a high Russian intelligence official, has been arrested and charged with treason for being a US agent.

TPM Editor Josh Marshal doesn't say it out loud but... I will:  Did Team Trump alert Russia about our mole?


Wow, It Gets Bigger (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/wow-it-gets-bigger)


Just losing an agent that highly placed would be a big set back. Intentionally betraying one... ouch.

All presumptions of innocence to the Trump team, of course.



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Jan 26, 2017, 06:03PM
More Inauguration crowd size unbalancedness...

Trump Lashed Out at National Park Service Chief in Phone Call (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/trump-lashed-out-at-national-park-service-chief-in-phone-call)

Quote
From the write-up by two of the profession's masters, Karen Tumulty and Juliet Eilperin ...

   
Quote
In a Saturday phone call, Trump personally ordered Reynolds to produce additional photographs of the previous day’s crowds on the National Mall, according to three individuals who have knowledge of the conversation. The president believed that they might prove that the media had lied in reporting that attendance had been no better than average.
Later in the article ...

Quote
    Reynolds was taken aback by Trump’s request, but did secure some additional aerial photographs and forwarded them to the White House through normal channels in the Interior Department, the sources said. The photos, however, did not prove Trump’s contention that the crowd size was upwards of 1 million.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Jan 26, 2017, 06:16PM
I don't even think Obama's inauguration drew 1 million people to the Mall.  I don't think that many will fit.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Jan 26, 2017, 06:31PM
On the other hand, Trump has experience with large numbers. 

Like when he lost a billion dollars.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Jan 26, 2017, 07:58PM
NYT headline:

Trump Strategist Stephen Bannon Says Media Should ‘Keep Its Mouth Shut’

A threat to the first amendment?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Jan 26, 2017, 09:21PM
Bannon is a dangerous man.

But if he thinks for one moment that the press will fall in line and do his bidding, he is sorely mistaken. They don't take orders. And his blustering will make them be on the Trump administration even more.

God bless the press corp. They are indispensable...at least the honest members of the trade.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Jan 26, 2017, 10:06PM
NYT headline:

Trump Strategist Stephen Bannon Says Media Should ‘Keep Its Mouth Shut’

A threat to the first amendment?

The more the Administration tries to muzzle the Press, the more suspicious the Press becomes.  It may get to the point that even Fox may not be able to cover for Trump.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Jan 26, 2017, 10:07PM
I dunno... the press always seems to become useful idiots for the Republican administrations and then to prove they aren't easily-led patsies they decide to be extra tough on the Democratic ones.

The war in Iraq? They bravely reprinted every bit of Dick Cheney propaganda leaked to them.

But health care reform? Death panels! Nazis! Rationing!

I'm not optimistic. The damage will all get done before the press does any serious coverage of it.

Consider the free pass they have given Trump on his Trump University fraud. All forgotten now.

 


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on Jan 27, 2017, 04:54AM
Gotta remember who owns the "free press".


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Jan 27, 2017, 05:10AM
So it looks like our boy is going to report in next week.  Wonder whether they will lift all the sanctions on Russia.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Jan 27, 2017, 08:11AM
Russia going about its business (Syrian peace talks), China going about its business, the US setting its hair on fire over the latest Trump stupidity (the wall, crowd size.)

Concerning.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Jan 27, 2017, 09:02AM

Consider the free pass they have given Trump on his Trump University fraud. All forgotten now.
 
That must have been where they used to teach courses on/using alternative facts.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Jan 29, 2017, 06:09AM
Hard to see a positive result to this...

Off The Rails (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/off-the-rails--3)

Quote
President Trump's executive order reorganizing the National Security Council removed the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs and the Director of National Intelligence as regular members of the principals committee and added former Breitbart News Executive Chairman and now Presidential Counselor Steve Bannon.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on Jan 29, 2017, 06:43AM
Hard to see a positive result to this...

Off The Rails (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/off-the-rails--3)


President Putin is clearly in control!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Jan 29, 2017, 07:48AM
There's talk of Donald ending economic sanctions against Russia.

Is it hard to imagine Russia sotto voce suggesting some beneficial treatment of Trump's Russian business interests on one hand and some punitive measures on the other, depending on whether the sanctions are lifted?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Jan 29, 2017, 08:53AM
Quote
President Trump's executive order reorganizing the National Security Council removed the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs and the Director of National Intelligence as regular members of the principals committee and added former Breitbart News Executive Chairman and now Presidential Counselor Steve Bannon.

Isn't Trump the one who said "I love the Generals"?  I guess he doesn't want them advising on policy.

I think Trump is making his move toward true Kleptocracy, taking lessons from Tsar Vladimir.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on Jan 29, 2017, 08:58AM
Frederick Forsythe nor John LeCarre could have come up with a plot more byzantine or scary than the reality being played out in the Drumpf administration. Removing the CJCS and the DNI from the NSC and replacing them with a white nationalist and a political hack after Russian interference in our election and appointing multiple people with close Russian ties to positions of power and influence in the administration? God, I hope there is a budding Woodward or Bernstein and a patriot somewhere at the top ranks of the intelligence structure that will get to the truth of this fiasco. I don't know if there is much time.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Jan 29, 2017, 09:47AM
Ok. Maybe Donald isn't so bad. From the Washington Post:

How fascist is Donald Trump? There’s actually a formula for that.
Grading the billionaire on the 11 attributes of fascism.
By John McNeill
October 21, 2016
John McNeill is a professor of history at Georgetown University.

“Donald Trump is a fascist” sounds more like a campaign slogan than an analysis of his political program. But it’s true that the GOP nominee doesn’t fit into America’s conventional party categories, and thoughtful people — authors Robert Kagan and Jeffrey Tucker, among others — have hurled the f-word at him.

Fascism was born in Italy during World War I and came to power with the ex-journalist and war veteran Benito Mussolini in 1922. Since the 1950s, dozens of top historians and political scientists have put fascism, especially the Italian and German versions, under the microscope. They’ve come up with a pretty solid agreement on what it is, both as a political ideology and as a political movement, factoring in all the (sometimes contradictory) things its progenitors said as they ascended to power. As a political ideology, fascism has eight main traits. As a political movement, it has three more. So: Just how fascist is Trump? On they fascist meter, we can award him zero to four “Benitos.”

First, the ideological features:

1. Hyper-nationalism. This attribute is not confined to fascism, but it is central to all fascism. Trump regularly promises to put America first and extolls the virtues of ordinary Americans (by which he often seems to mean white Americans). His trade policy qualifies as economic nationalism. By the standards of American politics, he is a hyper-nationalist, but by the standards of historical fascism, he is not in the upper echelon. Two Benitos.

2. Militarism. Fascists routinely lionized military institutions and military virtues, and at least rhetorically sought military solutions to political issues. Trump lavishes praise on the troops, as almost all American politicians do these days, and he has proposed (in vague and vulgar terms) a militaristic solution to the problem posed by the Islamic State. He has recommend taking the oil of the Middle East, which presumably would require armed force. But by and large, Trump does not blithely recommend military action and often lambastes his rivals for allegedly incompetent military adventurism. He does not dress his followers in ersatz military garb. Two Benitos.






















3. Glorification of violence and readiness to use it in politics.Fascists such as Mussolini thought violence could cleanse and redeem a tarnished nation. They encouraged loyal thugs to rough up, and occasionally kill, people whose politics differed from theirs. Trump scores low here. His rallies, according to many reports, have a frisson of menace to them; he has said things that could be interpreted asinvitationsto assassination; his followers often speak longingly of violent acts they wish to see committed against others; he has recommended using torture and killing the families of terrorists. But this still leaves him well short of the standard of Mussolini’s blackshirts or Hitler’s brownshirts, who not only called for political violence but resorted to it extensively. One Benito.

4. Fetishization of youth. Fascist movements, even when led by middle-aged men, always extolled the vigor and promise of youth and made special efforts to appeal to young people. Trump, as a septuagenarian, is ill-positioned here. He has no special youth organization to speak of. His most devoted followers are long in the tooth. Zero Benitos.

5. Fetishization of masculinity.Fascists trumpeted what they saw as masculine virtues and supported male authority within family and society, urging women to confine their sphere to home and children (the more of which the better). Trump shares much of this outlook, lauding his own stamina and accusinghis femalerival, Hillary Clinton, of lacking it. He mocks men whom he deems deficient in virility. But whereas Mussolini liked to hold up his own mother, devoted to home and hearth, as the feminine ideal, Trump’s vision of the proper woman seems to be a supermodel, more in line with Hugh Hefner’s ideology than Mussolini’s. Nonetheless, on swaggering machismo he gets full marks. Four Benitos.

6. Leader cult. Fascists always looked to a leader who was bold, decisive, manly, uncompromising and cruel when necessary — because the parlous state of the nation required such qualities. Mussolini and Hitler, both veterans of World War I, drew their models of leadership from army officers and worked hard to polish their images as dauntless rulers beholden to no one. They encouraged their followers to idolize them as Il Duce and der Führer. They claimed special insight into the will of the people. Trump, although not a war veteran, fully embraces the cult of the leader. He offers his business experience as evidence of his decisive leadership and is very testy when his business acumen is doubted. He also claims to channel the common man, enjoying a connection all other politicians lack. Four Benitos.

7. Lost-golden-age syndrome.Italian and German fascism shared a strong commitment to the notion of national rebirth. Mussolini and Hitler encouraged their supporters to believe in lost (or stolen) greatness, in a glorious past. That could be long ago, as with the Roman Empire, which Mussolini liked to invoke, or only a couple of decades prior, as with the German Reich that was, according to Hitler, “stabbed in the back” in 1918. Trump makes this appeal to a golden age the centerpiece of his campaign, assuring audiences that only he can “make America great again.” Four Benitos.

8. Self-definition by opposition.Fascists defined themselves as the bulwark against various evils and menaces to the nation. Those included communism, routine democratic politics, the traditional conservatism of industrial and agrarian elites (although both Mussolini and Hitler eventually made peace with these elites), and, especially in the German case, foreigners and minorities. Communism is no longer an issue for American politics. But Trump constantly rails against politics as usual, against political correctness, against elites of all kinds (including, curiously, business elites), and he has made a habit of vilifying minorities. He does not advocate their annihilation, as Hitler did. Three Benitos.

As a political movement, fascism displayed three further important traits:

9. Mass mobilization and mass party. Both Mussolini and Hitler rode to power on tidal waves of support that were organized into new political parties. A new party might fit Trump better, but he has not created one. Instead he has made a venerable one, the Grand Old Party, into his vehicle. He likes to refer to his following as a movement, and since the GOP convention in July has rarely tried to brand
             himself as a Republican. Many in his party loathe him. Two benitos

Hierarchical party structure and tendency to purge the disloyal. Fascist movements, like revolutions, ate their children. Anyone who displayed only tepid loyalty to the leader or who showed the potential to outshine the leader risked being purged or killed. So did followers who outlived their usefulness. Trump’s campaign shares this tendency toward purges, but the Republican Party under his leadership does not. And violence plays no role. One Benito.
11. Theatricality. In style and rhetoric, fascism was highly theatrical. Film and audio of Mussolini and Hitler make them seem like clownish buffoons, with their exaggerated gestures, their salutes, their overheated speeches full of absolutes and superlatives. Their rallies evolved into elaborate collective rituals for loyalists. Trump does not strut across stages like a Mussolini, and Nazi-style torchlit parades are out, but his rhetoric fits the fascist style well. He constantly calls things and people the worst or the best ever. His rallies feature repetitive chants. Even his studied frown of disapproval recalls a classic Mussolini pose. Three Benitos.

Add all this up, and you get 26 out of a possible 44 Benitos. In the fascist derby, Trump is a loser. Even Spain’s Francisco Franco and Portugal’s António de Oliveira Salazar might score higher. While there is a strong family resemblance, and with some features an uncanny likeness, Trump doesn’t fit the profile so well on those points where the use of violence is required. Projecting an air of menace at rallies, uttering ambiguous calls for assassinations, tacitly endorsing the roughing-up of protesters, urging the killing of terrorists’ families and whatever else Trump does — while shocking by the standards of American politics — fall far short of the genuinely murderous violence endorsed and unleashed by authentic fascists.


In a more nuanced approach, we might weight the various traits of fascism differently, but it’s not obvious how best to do so. Hyper-nationalism, for example, is more consequential than the youth fetish and perhaps ought to be taken more seriously. But it is also less distinctively fascist, being common to many types of political regimes. A longer list, too, might add refinement and complexity. But Trump does not do nuance. A crude, quick and flippant assessment is what he deserves. He is semi-fascist: more fascist than any successful American politician yet, and the most dangerous threat to pluralist democracy in this country in more than a century, but — thank our stars — an amateurish imitation of the real thing.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Jan 29, 2017, 10:15AM
One week and he's already up to 26.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on Jan 29, 2017, 10:21AM
One week and he's already up to 26.

My comment on all those "two and three Benitos" was gonna be "so far".


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Jan 29, 2017, 10:48AM
4. Fetishization of youth. Fascist movements, even when led by middle-aged men, always extolled the vigor and promise of youth and made special efforts to appeal to young people. Trump, as a septuagenarian, is ill-positioned here. He has no special youth organization to speak of. His most devoted followers are long in the tooth. Zero Benitos.
He likes his young wives and has publicly stated they need refreshing as they approach 40, and he certainly has some fetish over his young daughter.  There are believable rumors of him having his way with young (<16yo) girls. I'd say he deserves 2 Benitos for this one.

..., Trump is a loser.
On this point there is no argument.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Jan 30, 2017, 07:06PM
So how many Benitos did Trump add by firing and replacing the AG in a day?
 
Any odds on how long it'll take Trump to accumulate enough to make it official?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Jan 30, 2017, 10:08PM
So how many Benitos did Trump add by firing and replacing the AG in a day?

What is wrong with this country? Do we not still have career bureaucrats who can slow-walk a Presidential policy into meaninglessness?

She could have been gumming up the works from inside, but now she's out.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Jan 31, 2017, 05:43AM
What is wrong with this country? Do we not still have career bureaucrats who can slow-walk a Presidential policy into meaninglessness?

She could have been gumming up the works from inside, but now she's out.

The problem is that he has a Congress that for whatever reasons wants to let him go free.

His capricious firings were a hallmark of his business acumen.  Another hallmark of his business style is "shoot from the hip" without considering the consequences.  I wonder how long it will take to bite him.  He's the exact opposite of the deliberative Obama.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Jan 31, 2017, 06:34AM
OK, this is rich...

When it was Obama doing the Presidenting, Trump AG nominee Jefferson Beauregard Sessions thought it was very desirable that an AG refuse to do the President's bidding.

Jeff Sessions Had Warned Sally Yates: You’ll Have To Say No To The President (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/jeff-sessions-sally-yates-attorney-general_us_589014e3e4b0c90efeffc842?)

Quote
...In cashiering Yates, Trump made it sound like Yates had been insubordinate, accusing her of “betraying” the Department of Justice.

But, as it turns out, Yates did nothing more than what she said all along she would do way back at her confirmation hearing as deputy attorney general on March 24, 2015. And, in an interesting twist, she received on that occasion a word of caution from none other than Sen. Jeff Sessions (R-Ala.), who informed her that a time might come when she would have to stand up to the executive branch.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Jan 31, 2017, 07:15AM
SO. just putting this question out there...

What are the processes the American people my bring into play to get rid of dictator Trump?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Jan 31, 2017, 07:22AM
SO. just putting this question out there...

What are the processes the American people my bring into play to get rid of dictator Trump?

If he offends too many Republican congressmen, he may become eligible for an Impeachment.

The Supreme Court may overturn some of his Ukases.  Even with a new Conservative justice, there are some things that are simply unconstitutional and will get voted down.

In 2018 the Public can elect a Democratic congress that will impede his movement.

In 2020 they can vote him out (if he runs -- he's going to be quite a bit older than any other candidate.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Jan 31, 2017, 07:33AM
I guess you could also appeal to Pence to get support and invoke the 25th amendment.

Or beg the armed forces chiefs to mount a military coupe.  Isn't that kind of what the 2nd amendment is all about?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Jan 31, 2017, 07:36AM
I suspect we're not going to hear much guff about "2nd Amendment remedies" from Republicans for a while.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on Jan 31, 2017, 10:04AM

Or beg the armed forces chiefs to mount a military coupe. 


We are in the midst of an ongoing, bloodless coup orchestrated by Putin, Bannon, and Flynn. Drumpf is just their Polenzi Durak.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Jan 31, 2017, 11:16AM
I believe I read Michael Hayden said something like that about Trump.  He got the fool part right anyway.  He's not going to be very useful if he looses all credibility.

I'm just waiting for a cell phone video of him in one of his reported temper tantrums.  That ought to go a long way.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Jan 31, 2017, 07:32PM
Scientific American: Is Trump Driving Recruits to ISIS (https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/mind-guest-blog/is-trump-driving-recruits-to-isis/)?
 
I may have gotten this from another topic in here ... I scanned for it and didn't see it though. In any case, a good example of why we need to encourage dogmatists to become real adults, or we need to avoid feeding them as the Real World Trolls they are--don't give them a voice they don't earn (the media is driven by the market--by attention, just like the trolls).


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: growlerbox on Jan 31, 2017, 07:43PM
mount a military coupe.

Is that like sitting on top of an armour-plated Honda Civic?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Jan 31, 2017, 08:43PM
Is that like sitting on top of an armour-plated Honda Civic?
More like having your way with an amour-placatable Honda Civic, or something to that effect.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Posaunus on Jan 31, 2017, 09:21PM
NPD

According to the DSM-5 (Manual of Mental Disorders):
Individuals with NPD (Narcissistic Personality Disorder) have most or all of the following symptoms:

•   Grandiosity with expectations of superior treatment from others
•   Fixated on fantasies of power, success, intelligence, attractiveness, etc.
•   Self-perception of being unique, superior and associated with high-status people and institutions
•   Needing constant admiration from others
•   Sense of entitlement to special treatment and to obedience from others
•   Exploitative of others to achieve personal gain
•   Unwilling to empathize with others’ feelings, wishes, or needs
•   Intensely envious of others and the belief that others are equally envious of them
•   Pompous and arrogant demeanor

Associated Features

People with NPD tend to exaggerate their skills and accomplishments as well as their level of intimacy with people they consider to be high-status.  Their sense of superiority may cause them to monopolize conversations and to become impatient or disdainful when others talk about themselves.  In the course of a conversation, they may purposefully or unknowingly disparage or devalue the other person by overemphasizing their own success.  When they are aware that their statements have hurt someone else, they tend to react with contempt and to view it as a sign of weakness.  When their own ego is wounded by a real or perceived criticism, their anger can be disproportionate to the situation, but typically, their actions and responses are deliberate and calculated. 

To the extent that people are pathologically narcissistic, they can be controlling, blaming, self-absorbed, intolerant of others’ views, unaware of others’ needs and of the effects of their behavior on others, and insistent that others see them as they wish to be seen.  Narcissistic individuals use various strategies to protect the self at the expense of others.  They tend to devalue, derogate, insult, blame others and they often respond to threatening feedback with anger and hostility.  Since the fragile ego of individuals with NPD is hypersensitive to perceived criticism or defeat, they are prone to feelings of shame, humiliation and worthlessness over minor or even imagined incidents.  They usually mask these feelings from others with feigned humility, isolating socially or they may react with outbursts of rage, defiance, or by seeking revenge.  The merging of the “inflated self-concept” and the “actual self” is seen in the inherent grandiosity of narcissistic personality disorder.  Also inherent in this process are the defense mechanisms of denial, idealization and devaluation. 



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: growlerbox on Jan 31, 2017, 09:51PM
OK, so let's say for the sake or argument that Trump is a genuine narcissist (although I've questioned elsewhere the validity and value of making such diagnoses outside a clinical context).  So what?  He's hardly the first, and unlikely to be the last.  What does this diagnosis allow you to do that you couldn't do before?  If someone could demonstrate that he actually didn't meet sufficient criteria for the diagnosis, would you then agree with his statements and approve of his actions?  These diagnoses have limited predictive value with respect to specific behaviours even in a clinical context, so it's not going to give you any more information than you already have from just watching the guy.

He's an odious little bastard.  Just as useless a statement, but I don't have to pretend to claim any special knowledge to make it.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Jan 31, 2017, 10:25PM
I get your point Shane.

However, not to make to fine a point of it, but Posaunus did not mention Trump.  You read what he posted and drew your own conclusion.  You have to admit, he does demonstrate the published and clinically accepted symptoms of being NPD (I get verification of this from my daughter, the clinical psychologist).

So, as far as Trump is concerned what does it matter if we (the average Joes of this world) call him an odious little bastard or a Narcissist?  I've lived as the son of a diagnosed NPD father for 59 years.  I agree 100% with both your reckoning of him and that of Posaunus.

It really makes no matter, Trump's enough gone that any 'diagnosis' is fair game.  Have at him...


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: growlerbox on Feb 01, 2017, 12:03AM
I get your point Shane.

However, not to make to fine a point of it, but Posaunus did not mention Trump.  You read what he posted and drew your own conclusion.  You have to admit, he does demonstrate the published and clinically accepted symptoms of being NPD (I get verification of this from my daughter, the clinical psychologist).

He did not, but it was posted in a thread entitled "Our unbalanced POTUS" without further explanation.  What other conclusion would you have me draw?  And whether he appears to demonstrate the generally accepted traits (aside from the enormous shortcomings of the DSM, particularly with respect to Axis II disorders) is irrelevant to the entire point of diagnosis, which you can take from me, if you like, the ex-psychiatry resident (5 years), current general practitioner.

It's not Trump that is undermined by this, it's those, or perhaps especially the loved ones of those who may yet hope, however faintly, that their own diagnoses may represent a step on the path to recovery that are ultimately subject to the cheapening of their suffering by this sort of armchair psychology.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 01, 2017, 06:25AM
What is the treatment for NPD? 

I'm going to guess making the guy President isn't part of it.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 01, 2017, 06:29AM
Having worked for a NPD person (he was a few levels higher in Management) we discovered some coping skills.  These types of things may be useful for dealing with Trump:

1.  He has an inner circle of "enablers" who filter all outside information.  You have to get to his enablers to get your action considered.

2.  Often you have to make him think he thought of what you want to do.  He'll never give credit to an underling for an idea that works out (but if it doesn't be prepared to take all the blame; even if it failed for something he did).

3.  Toadyism works much better than threats.  Threats make him double down.

Quite frankly I'm surprised that the election went as it did.  Either some kind of chicanery was at work or an awful lot of Democrats stayed home; bitter over Bernie.  How could you believe Lyin' Donald over Lyin' Hillary?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: bhcordova on Feb 01, 2017, 06:32AM
But, he's pro-life.  That's all that matters.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 01, 2017, 06:40AM
But, he's pro-life.  That's all that matters.

So he's against the death penalty as well?  I don't think so. ;)

He's actually been on both sides of the Abortion issue at various times; it probably doesn't matter a fig to him.  There's no money to extract from the US for either position.  The folks who are anti-abortion (I won't say pro-life since a lot of them are for the Death Penalty) think they can get him to further their aims.

Note that most of us who are Pro-Choice are not advocates of abortion.  We'd rather there be no need of abortions.  And to some extent it's working.  Abortions seem to have been decreasing over the past decade.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 01, 2017, 07:02AM

Quite frankly I'm surprised that the election went as it did...Either some kind of chicanery was at work...

The last minute FBI attack was significant.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: bhcordova on Feb 01, 2017, 11:08AM
So he's against the death penalty as well?  I don't think so. ;)

He's actually been on both sides of the Abortion issue at various times; it probably doesn't matter a fig to him.  There's no money to extract from the US for either position.  The folks who are anti-abortion (I won't say pro-life since a lot of them are for the Death Penalty) think they can get him to further their aims.

Note that most of us who are Pro-Choice are not advocates of abortion.  We'd rather there be no need of abortions.  And to some extent it's working.  Abortions seem to have been decreasing over the past decade.

But, he's Pro-Life.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 01, 2017, 11:16AM
Our country was founded as Pro-Life.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 01, 2017, 11:21AM
Our country was founded as Pro-Life.

Where does that come from?  Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness were applied to post-natal citizens.  Plus, there weren't many abortionists in 1776


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Feb 01, 2017, 11:47AM
Our country was founded as Pro-Life.

Please DD, provide links.....credible ones.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 01, 2017, 12:53PM
It seems abortions were known enough to have a common law understanding about them.  According to Wikipedia, at independence, the US followed British common law which only covered abortions after the fetus was moving (quickening) about 15-20 weeks.

You could read that either way as pro-life or pro-choice.

But apparently not an issue enough to actually write laws about it.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 01, 2017, 01:09PM
"Amendment XIV

Section 1.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

You can't get any more pro-life than that. Abortions violate section 1 of the 14th Amendment.

Secondly, notice that this Amendment specifically says that 'States' shall not......, meaning, this is a States jurisdiction and not Federal of which the ROE vs WADE Scotus decision violates.

Thirdly, the Judge writing the for the majority Scotus decision, had to make the erroneous statement, that Fetus were not human, because even the SCOTUS realized that abortion would be s violation, if unborn babies were really people. Har!

Given the tilt of liberal beliefs, it is understandable why they can't see what balanced looks like.




Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on Feb 01, 2017, 01:12PM
THe very first phrase is "All persons BORN......." Pretty cut and dried.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Feb 01, 2017, 01:40PM

Given the tilt of liberal beliefs, it is understandable why they can't see what balanced looks like.




Well, given the way that Republicans interpret things, I am not surprised you read it that way.

 :rolleyes:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 01, 2017, 02:38PM
THe very first phrase is "All persons BORN......." Pretty cut and dried.
So, kill 'em before they're born. Nice!

If you're gonna use that argument, why not set the threshold at 18 years, that way, teenagers will be more behaved.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 01, 2017, 04:58PM
So, kill 'em before they're born. Nice!

If you're gonna use that argument, why not set the threshold at 18 years, that way, teenagers will be more behaved.

On the other hand, you could give them the right to vote.  Can you figure out how to get a blastocyst to pull a lever on a voting machine?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 01, 2017, 06:20PM
The Bible doesn't recognized a body as being a person with a soul until it is born and breathing.

Breathing your first and breathing your last are the bookends of human life in the Bible, not conception, not brainwave activity.

It is telling that the Bible doesn't treat killing a fetus as murder.
 
And of course, the founding fathers were Bible-readin', true-believin' Christians so they must have thought like the Bible did.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 01, 2017, 06:55PM
Apparently this is true if you include NYC's cost of security for Trump Tower where wife and son live.

(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/16487183_283997232015312_6048544284397434722_o.jpg?oh=f4020cdcada7391ca3a0c9511f2cb822&oe=5901B97A)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 01, 2017, 07:56PM
So, kill 'em before they're born. Nice!

He's not making that argument at all. He's pointing out that the very law you quoted doesn't support your position, as written by the founders.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 01, 2017, 08:03PM
Secondly, notice that this Amendment specifically says that 'States' shall not......, meaning, this is a States jurisdiction and not Federal of which the ROE vs WADE Scotus decision violates.

You're unaware of the incorporation of most of the Bill of Rights, meaning that neither states nor the federal government can violate it.

If this weren't true, Texas could make you tithe to a church to which you didn't belong, because the language doesn't forbid it ("Congress shall make no law...").

Also, the Supreme Court can invalidate federal, state and local laws that aren't permitted under the Constitution, even if the subject of those laws isn't within federal jurisdiction. So the Supreme Court could prevent a municipality from banning Catholic tracts, even if they weren't sold across state lines.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on Feb 02, 2017, 04:47AM

It is telling that the Bible doesn't treat killing a fetus as murder.
 

Even more telling that so many "Christians" don't bother to follow the strictures of the Bible.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 02, 2017, 07:00AM

It is telling that the Bible doesn't treat killing a fetus as murder.
 
 

Would Jesus tell someone that aborting her child is a good thing? For me, I will err on the side of saving the unborn baby.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 02, 2017, 07:23AM
Would Jesus tell someone that aborting her child is a good thing? For me, I will err on the side of saving the unborn baby.

He didn't call it murder.



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 02, 2017, 07:24AM
Would Jesus tell someone that aborting her child is a good thing? For me, I will err on the side of saving the unborn baby.

That's easy for you to say -- you don't have to deal with the consequences.

If men got pregnant abortion centers would be as common as Dunkin' Donuts.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 02, 2017, 07:29AM
He didn't call it murder.



Just exactly what did Jesus call an abortion?

What if the woman at the well committed adultery and was pregnant, what do you think Jesus would have said to her?



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 02, 2017, 07:42AM
Even more telling that so many "Christians" don't bother to follow the strictures of the Bible.

The Bible is consistent in that it considers the fetus as an unborn child, not a clump of cells.

The Bible is consistent in that it considers murder a sin.

Christians are sinners just like everyone else. It is sad that Christians can be so deceived by the world view.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 02, 2017, 07:46AM
Just exactly what did Jesus call an abortion?

What if the woman at the well committed adultery and was pregnant, what do you think Jesus would have said to her?


Didn't he tell the crowd about to stone an adultress "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"?

The Bible is consistent in that it considers the fetus as an unborn child, not a clump of cells.

The Bible is consistent in that it considers murder a sin.

Christians are sinners just like everyone else. It is sad that Christians can be so deceived by the world view.

The people of the era of the Bible didn't consider it a child until Quickening (first movements) which would correspond to the boundary from embryo to fetus.  Most abortions are from earlier and would probably not be considered any more significant than a bowel movement.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 02, 2017, 08:34AM
Didn't he tell the crowd about to stone an adultress "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone"?

You left out what Jesus said next. Probably on purpose?

Quote
The people of the era of the Bible didn't consider it a child until Quickening (first movements) which would correspond to the boundary from embryo to fetus.  Most abortions are from earlier and would probably not be considered any more significant than a bowel movement.

Through out the Bible, it is considered a person that hasn't been born yet. If you want to think that your grandchildren are bowel movements that didn't get out, until full term, then go with that. LOL!



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: timothy42b on Feb 02, 2017, 08:40AM
You left out what Jesus said next. Probably on purpose?




Not a good example, because this story didn't appear in any text until the 5th century, and after that is found in 4 different places depending on the manuscript.

In other words, it's a forgery.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 02, 2017, 08:40AM
You left out what Jesus said next. Probably on purpose?

Through out the Bible, it is considered a person that hasn't been born yet.



Can you cite that?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 02, 2017, 08:45AM
You left out what Jesus said next. Probably on purpose?

Using the King James wording...

He said: “Woman, where are those thine accusers? Hath no man condemned thee?”
She replied: "No, my lord"
To which he said: "Neither do I condemn thee; go, and sin no more."


So, what's your point DD?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Feb 02, 2017, 08:50AM
Unfortunately this book will almost certainly be of no interest to those with only the veneer of an understanding of honesty (http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/26262926-a-survival-guide-to-the-misinformation-age) (especially the Alt-Right/Alternative Facts Crüe). Looks like one we really need to see become popular ASAP though ... assuming it's well written and an effective tutor anyway.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 02, 2017, 08:50AM
Using the King James wording...

He said: “Woman, where are those thine accusers? Hath no man condemned thee?”
She replied: "No, my lord"
To which he said: "Neither do I condemn thee; go, and sin no more."


So, what's you point DD?

Would Jesus praise her for being pregnant, and advise her to get an abortion, so she could continue in her life of sin?

He said "go and sin no more". That means she needs to quit committing adultery, and in the case that she was pregnant, take care of the baby she gave life to.



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on Feb 02, 2017, 09:59AM

The Bible is consistent in that it considers the fetus as an unborn child, not a clump of cells.


Um,......NO. To re-iterate what Rob posted earlier......

"The Bible doesn't recognized a body as being a person with a soul until it is born and breathing.

Breathing your first and breathing your last are the bookends of human life in the Bible, not conception, not brainwave activity."


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 02, 2017, 10:22AM
That's a misapplication of scripture. It's just not consistent  with other scriptures that detail the unborn baby is indeed a person.






Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Feb 02, 2017, 11:04AM
That's a misapplication of scripture. It's just not consistent  with other scriptures that detail the unborn baby is indeed a person.






in your opinion


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: bhcordova on Feb 02, 2017, 11:10AM
Jeremiah 1:4-5
Quote
4The word of the LORD came to me:

5Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,

before you were born I dedicated you,

a prophet to the nations I appointed you.

Seems that God considered Jeremiah a person even before he was formed in the womb.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: mwpfoot on Feb 02, 2017, 11:13AM
This disintegration of a critique of our know-nothing President into a bible scripture-off perfectly captures the times.

Good job, everybody!

 :good:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Feb 02, 2017, 11:14AM
This disintegration of a critique of our know-nothing President into a bible scripture-off perfectly captures the times.

Good job, everybody!

 :good:

 :D


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on Feb 02, 2017, 11:50AM
SMH!! :(


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 02, 2017, 11:52AM
Our country was founded as Pro-Life.

Quote
Would Jesus tell someone that aborting her child is a good thing? For me, I will err on the side of saving the unborn baby.

Quote
What if the woman at the well committed adultery and was pregnant, what do you think Jesus would have said to her?

There's a pattern here: You're consistently projecting your own opinions and preferences onto the Bible (or onto the Founders, or the Constitution). When the text doesn't support your latter-day 'improvements' on the document, you just say, Yeah, but I bet He would have said it!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 02, 2017, 11:53AM
He said "go and sin no more". That means she needs to quit committing adultery,
Yes, he did, and no one is trying to say adultery is not a sin.  After all, it's right there in the commandments

... and in the case that she was pregnant, take care of the baby she gave life to.
But where the heck did this come from?  I know it's not in a bible.

Let me ask you DD, if you had a 13 year old daughter and she was raped by a person, and I'll add a person from a race you don't like and of a religion you don't like, would you insist that she have the baby and be a parent of a child she did not want before she even finished high school?  Would you then support her and her child so she could get an education and make a career for herself?  Would you be the picture of the proud grand dad?

How about she got married to a great guy, then during her planned and welcome pregnancy she developed an early stage imminently fatal case of hypertension (it happens, frequently) and the only choices were either abort the fetus, either by treatment of the hypertension, or as treatment of the hypertension, or let the pregnancy continue and kill both your daughter and her unborn child?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 02, 2017, 11:54AM
Would Jesus praise her for being pregnant, and advise her to get an abortion, so she could continue in her life of sin?

He said "go and sin no more". That means she needs to quit committing adultery, and in the case that she was pregnant, take care of the baby she gave life to.

[emphasis added]

See how you added something that was 'Dickerson' and pretended it was 'Jesus'? Like that whole last part?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 02, 2017, 11:58AM
Back to the topic:

Apparently the POTUS was watching Fox and Friends this morning. They showed footage of the riot and someone said they should defund the school. Trump immediately tweeted out a proposal to defund the school. What a dope.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: bhcordova on Feb 02, 2017, 11:59AM


How about she got married to a great guy, then during her planned and welcome pregnancy she developed an early stage imminently fatal case of hypertension (it happens, frequently) and the only choices were either abort the fetus, either by treatment of the hypertension, or as treatment of the hypertension, or let the pregnancy continue and kill both your daughter and her unborn child?

I can't speak for Dusty, but the Catholic belief is that while intentional abortion is wrong, that if a treatment to save the mother's life kills the unborn child, that is an unintended consequence and thus not a sin.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 02, 2017, 12:04PM
Trump honored the National Prayer Breakfast with this solemn pronouncement. I'm not kidding:

Quote
“We had tremendous success on the ‘Apprentice,’ and when I ran for president I had to leave the show. That’s when I knew for sure I was doing it, and they hired a big, big movie star, Arnold Schwarzenegger, to take my place,” Trump said. “And we know how that turned out. The ratings went right down the tubes. It’s been a total disaster. And Mark [Burnett] will never, ever bet against Trump again. And I want to just pray for Arnold if we can for those ratings.”

What's going to happen to The Onion with this guy as president? At one time, that would have been an Onion piece.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 02, 2017, 12:07PM
I can't speak for Dusty, but the Catholic belief is that while intentional abortion is wrong, that if a treatment to save the mother's life kills the unborn child, that is an unintended consequence and thus not a sin.

I agree!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 02, 2017, 12:08PM
[emphasis added]

See how you added something that was 'Dickerson' and pretended it was 'Jesus'? Like that whole last part?

You should know that it was a hypothetical.



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: mwpfoot on Feb 02, 2017, 12:13PM
if a treatment to save the mother's life kills the unborn child, that is an unintended consequence and thus not a sin

Then all we need to do is threaten pregnant women with the penalty of death unless they abort their unwanted children.

Very biblical! All is well here!

 :good:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 02, 2017, 12:16PM
You should know that it was a hypothetical.

But in each case you've done it.

Someone quotes actual scripture, then you give your own opinion and claim He would have said it. Same with your interpretation of the founders. What you're calling a 'hypothetical' is simply assigning your opinion to someone who didn't necessarily hold it.

You need a KellyAnne Conway of your own.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: timothy42b on Feb 02, 2017, 12:25PM
Jeremiah 1:4-5
Seems that God considered Jeremiah a person even before he was formed in the womb.

He knew what would happen in the future.  DOH!  He's God! 

That doesn't mean a blastocyst is a person, sorry. 

By the way, that's the clobber verse that always gets trotted out - because there isn't anything better.  But as mentioned earlier, there are a number of places where Scripture believes life begins and ends with breath. 


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 02, 2017, 12:30PM
I agree!
Well, not in Ireland, but that is another matter.

Still, you didn't answer to the rape case.  That happens frequently too.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 02, 2017, 01:44PM
But in each case you've done it.

Someone quotes actual scripture, then you give your own opinion and claim He would have said it. Same with your interpretation of the founders. What you're calling a 'hypothetical' is simply assigning your opinion to someone who didn't necessarily hold it.

You need a KellyAnne Conway of your own.

It was a hypothetical question that I asked, and yes, I applied my opinion for how I think Jesus would have responded. LOL!




Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 02, 2017, 02:22PM
He knew what would happen in the future.  DOH!  He's God! 

That doesn't mean a blastocyst is a person, sorry. 
 
By the way, that's the clobber verse that always gets trotted out - because there isn't anything better.  But as mentioned earlier, there are a number of places where Scripture believes life begins and ends with breath. 

If you look at the state of anatomy and physiology of the era of the Bible, you realize that you know only that if a person is living he is breathing.  We don't know about blood flow (discovered in the 1600s by Harvey) or brain activity (discovered in the mid 1900s).  You also have reflex motions and eye pupil dilations.  Not sure if they knew about pulse but it probably wouldn't mean much since they didn't know what caused it.  So respiration becomes a good measure for life.  Similar to using the rising or setting of the sun to determine the start of a day.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: growlerbox on Feb 02, 2017, 02:38PM
He knew what would happen in the future.  DOH!  He's God! 

That doesn't mean a blastocyst is a person, sorry. 

By the way, that's the clobber verse that always gets trotted out - because there isn't anything better.  But as mentioned earlier, there are a number of places where Scripture believes life begins and ends with breath. 

You mean the Bible isn't internally consistent?  Why, I oughta'...


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Feb 02, 2017, 02:39PM
He knew what would happen in the future.  DOH!  He's God! 
 
That doesn't mean a blastocyst is a person, sorry. 
 
By the way, that's the clobber verse that always gets trotted out - because there isn't anything better.  But as mentioned earlier, there are a number of places where Scripture believes life begins and ends with breath.

Of course believers also must believe that God was well aware the system of nature he created would result not only in all of the intentional abortions humans do, but also the natural ones that end somewhere around 10-15% of confirmed pregnancies, a number that dwarfs the intentional ones even without adding those that aren't confirmed or just never make it onto the radar. So believers in a traditional creator god, whether they're able to handle it or not, believe in a god that's responsible for all of this. Twists of reason can excuse the ones humans do intentionally I suppose, but the distortions required so somehow conclude that God's not responsible for what he created are well beyond anything a sober mind can manage.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Feb 02, 2017, 02:46PM
There's a pattern here: You're consistently projecting your own opinions and preferences onto the Bible (or onto the Founders, or the Constitution). When the text doesn't support your latter-day 'improvements' on the document, you just say, Yeah, but I bet He would have said it!

It's a pattern that people generally won't go through with living or recently deceased people they respect, but also that's very popular for the more needy religious apologists. It's one of the weaker but more common indications they don't really quite believe what they think they do. Behavior speaks far louder than words (particularly the words of those who are plainly weak on self-awareness--a trait, or the lack one one, which is ubiquitous among authoritarians).


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: growlerbox on Feb 02, 2017, 03:55PM

Of course believers also must believe that God was well aware the system of nature he created would result not only in all of the intentional abortions humans do, but also the natural ones that end somewhere around 10-15% of confirmed pregnancies, a number that dwarfs the intentional ones even without adding those that aren't confirmed or just never make it onto the radar. So believers in a traditional creator god, whether they're able to handle it or not, believe in a god that's responsible for all of this. Twists of reason can excuse the ones humans do intentionally I suppose, but the distortions required so somehow conclude that God's not responsible for what he created are well beyond anything a sober mind can manage.

Studies in which B-hCG levels have been prospectively monitored in cohorts of women in order to detect very early pregnancy and miscarriage put the rate at around 31%.  "Some design," to quote a certain late great.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Feb 02, 2017, 04:13PM
Some examples of serious problems with the allegedly pro-life Bible:
 
Quote
One Samuel 15:3
 
Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.
Quote
Numbers 31:17-18
 
17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
Quote
Judges 11:29-39

29 Then the Spirit of the Lord came upon Jephthah, and he passed over Gilead, and Manasseh, and passed over Mizpeh of Gilead, and from Mizpeh of Gilead he passed over unto the children of Ammon.

30 And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the Lord, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,

31 Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the Lord's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.

32 So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and the Lord delivered them into his hands.

33 And he smote them from Aroer, even till thou come to Minnith, even twenty cities, and unto the plain of the vineyards, with a very great slaughter. Thus the children of Ammon were subdued before the children of Israel.

34 And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter.

35 And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the Lord, and I cannot go back.

36 And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the Lord, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth; forasmuch as the Lord hath taken vengeance for thee of thine enemies, even of the children of Ammon.

37 And she said unto her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me alone two months, that I may go up and down upon the mountains, and bewail my virginity, I and my fellows.

38 And he said, Go. And he sent her away for two months: and she went with her companions, and bewailed her virginity upon the mountains.

39 And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man.
Quote
Two Kings 2:23-24
 
23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.

24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
Quote
Ezekiel 9:4-6
 
4 And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:

6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

Hosea 13 (https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hosea+13&version=KJV) has a particularly nasty punch line, but it's a whole chapter--a short chapter (normal for the Bible), but still a chapter, so there's the link rather than the full quote.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 02, 2017, 04:16PM
It was a hypothetical question that I asked, and yes, I applied my opinion for how I think Jesus would have responded. LOL!

I'm glad you're laughing out loud instead of taking offense. I was taught in church that substituting our opinion for God's (including Christ) is blasphemy, and that the word of God was infallible and complete. I don't take any offense because it's not my thing anymore.

My only beef is that if you're going to use scripture as a basis for legislation (there's that pesky Constitution again!), and beat the rest of us over the head with it (even those of us who believe it no more than you believe Islam), at least don't make it up as you go along to suit yourself.

LOL!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 02, 2017, 07:48PM
New revelations from Dr. Balboa...

Trump Takes Propecia, A Hair-Loss Drug Associated With Mental Confusion, Impotence (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-propecia-haiir-loss_us_58936376e4b06f344e4058a6?d1ytoscyigpqtzkt9&)
Quote

“Users report that its side effects — inability to orgasm, painful erections, chronic depression, insomnia, brain fog, and suicidal thoughts — can last long after patients stop taking the pill.”

This explains why Melania is staying in NYC, the baggy pants, the inaugural address, the 3AM tweets, the wandering speech pattern, and our foreign policy.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 02, 2017, 08:56PM
Quote
Still, you didn't answer to the rape case.  That happens frequently too.
Well DD, I guess you are taking the 5th on this one.




Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 02, 2017, 09:04PM
It was a hypothetical question that I asked, and yes, I applied my opinion for how I think Jesus would have responded. LOL!
Your opinion means squat.  You will not even stand up to our own, hmm, shall I say 'convictions', if that word even accurately describes your state of mind.  I'll bow out this discussion for a while.  The blither astounds me.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on Feb 03, 2017, 04:45AM
Well, this really  comes as no surprise........

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2017/02/02/on-trumps-immigration-moves-a-deep-divide-along-educational-lines/?utm_term=.cabab2045474&wpisrc=nl_opinions&wpmm=1


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: elmsandr on Feb 03, 2017, 05:23AM
Can we just take a few moments to pause and stand with the victims of the Bowling Green Massacre?

Never Remember,
Andy


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 03, 2017, 05:51AM
Well, this really  comes as no surprise........

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/plum-line/wp/2017/02/02/on-trumps-immigration-moves-a-deep-divide-along-educational-lines/?utm_term=.cabab2045474&wpisrc=nl_opinions&wpmm=1

And this explains Republican's dislike for making college more accessible or more affordable.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 03, 2017, 10:23AM
From the Imaginary Conspiracies desk...


White House Backs Away From Investigation Into Voter Fraud Claims Trump Made Up (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/white-house-voter-fraud_us_589455a4e4b04061313641dc?)
Quote
A recent poll found that only 1 in 4 people believe Trump’s claims that millions of people voted illegally.


...The White House is backing away from President Donald Trump’s promise to launch an investigation into the voter fraud claims he made up.

One senior administration official told CNN that while such an investigation could happen in the future, it was no longer a priority. This explains why the executive order on the probe that White House Press Secretary Sean Spicer said Trump would sign last month was never released.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 03, 2017, 11:41AM
Can we just take a few moments to pause and stand with the victims of the Bowling Green Massacre?

Never Remember,
Andy

Turned out to be a football game.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 03, 2017, 01:23PM
I can see what's coming... "why is it OK to be a Bowling Green denier but not a Sandy Hook denier?"


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 03, 2017, 06:33PM
The recent Yemen raid didn't go well but the Pentagon assured us it got some super intel from it. 

Their big prize?  A terrorist training video that's already been online for 10 years...

The Pentagon Said This Video Shows A Raid In Yemen Was Successful. It’s A Decade Old. (https://www.buzzfeed.com/nancyyoussef/a-video-the-military-said-showed-a-recent-raid-was-successfu?utm_term=.snLd1a0yK8#.sxoz0pPGrw)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: timothy42b on Feb 04, 2017, 11:41AM
Yemen is a sovereign nation, right?  Is it legal for us to go there without a visa? 

Just curious.  I guess I should avoid laziness enough to google it, but I can't be bothered today.  Maybe later. 


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 04, 2017, 11:50AM
Travel to any  foreign nation requires a visa (except Canada and Mexico).  Sometimes you need to get it in advance and other times it's simply stamped on your passport (and sometimes not even stamped there).

Not sure if you need a visa in advance to travel to Yemen or any other Middle Eastern country (Iran excepted -- you must have one for there).


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 04, 2017, 01:24PM
It turns out there are quite a few countries you don't need a visa to visit, however Yemen isn't one of them (https://travel.state.gov/content/passports/en/country/yemen.html). I recall the President of Yemen did protest the recent incursion.

US Gov site:

Learn About Your Destination (https://travel.state.gov/content/passports/en/country.html)


The identity papers you need in the absence of an actual visa requirement vary by country.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 05, 2017, 07:22AM
Our unbalanced POTUS's unbalanced Press Secretary...

https://www.youtube.com/v/UWuc18xISwI


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 05, 2017, 08:18AM
Hmmm, there must be some embarrassment for your government on behalf of the person that uploaded that video.  It's not available for viewing in Canada.

Maybe just SNL is not to be viewed in Canada...


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 05, 2017, 10:39AM
Maybe just SNL is not to be viewed in Canada...

Does this work?

https://www.youtube.com/v/L2p-zFhPzD0


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 06, 2017, 05:35AM
It might.

I don't normally use Chrome, but I can install it on my family room TV connected computer and give Zen a try.  Other VPNs have been disabled by Netflix a few months back.  I think they use user information to block users.  But it might work for other things.

Thanks for the tip! :good:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 06, 2017, 08:41PM
Unnamed sources say...

White House rattled by McCarthy's spoof of Spicer (http://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/melissa-mccarthy-sean-spicer-234715)

Quote
...the devastating “Saturday Night Live” caricature of Spicer that aired over the weekend — in which a belligerent Spicer was spoofed by a gum-chomping, super soaker-wielding Melissa McCarthy in drag — did not go over well internally at a White House in which looks matter.

More than being lampooned as a press secretary who makes up facts, it was Spicer’s portrayal by a woman that was most problematic in the president’s eyes, according to sources close to him. And the unflattering send-up by a female comedian was not considered helpful for Spicer’s longevity in the grueling, high-profile job...


The sketch is even getting academic-style analysis

Why Melissa McCarthy Had to Play Sean Spicer (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/06/opinion/why-melissa-mccarthy-had-to-play-sean-spicer.html)

Quote
Melissa McCarthy’s turn as Sean Spicer is a reminder that cross-gender casting can be a lot more interesting than just putting a man in a dress — and that when you’re trying to mock an administration that seems almost unmockable in its absurdity, it helps to pick the best woman for the job.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: bhcordova on Feb 07, 2017, 06:13AM
Two sayings come to mind 'if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen' and 'if you can't take it, don't dish it out.'


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 07, 2017, 06:27AM
If you can't take the heat, don't set the kitchen on fire.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on Feb 07, 2017, 07:26AM
The joys of a big ego, thin skin, and obsession with vanity.

Doubt it was ever worth it in his business for someone to deal with him that he didn't like or to tell him things he didn't like.

But as president... Mr Vain is now holding the single most criticized position in the country, where people of all stripes attack every aspect possible. He doesn't seem to be taking it well so far. Should be interesting to see long term. He ain't young, and prolonged stress can causes major health issues.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 07, 2017, 12:25PM
Trump disapproval reaches highest level yet 54%

Gallup Daily: Trump Job Approval (http://www.gallup.com/poll/201617/gallup-daily-trump-job-approval.aspx)

The approval is still stuck around 42% so it must be the undecideds getting off the fence.
 

(http://a5.img.talkingpointsmemo.com/image/upload/w_652/xgytxgsgbrbeh9ep1kai.jpg)




Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Feb 07, 2017, 03:10PM
From the W Post:





Shoker! Rediculous chocker Trump attaks and dishoners English with ever-dummer spellings.

...

I wish I could say this attack was unprecedented — or, as President Trump spells it, unpresidented. But I cannot say that. Nothing has distinguished Trump, his aides and his loyal supporters more than their shared struggle with spelling.

..

The morning after his inauguration, Trump tweeted: “I am honered to serve you, the great American People, as your 45th President of the United States!”


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 07, 2017, 03:34PM
For an interesting contrast in self-description, compare Donald Trump's official whitehouse.gov bio (https://www.whitehouse.gov/administration/president-trump) with the one that was up for Barack Obama (http://web.archive.org/web/20161107233356/https://www.whitehouse.gov/administration/president-obama)




Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on Feb 07, 2017, 03:54PM
For an interesting contrast in self-description, compare Donald Trump's official whitehouse.gov bio (https://www.whitehouse.gov/administration/president-trump) with the one that was up for Barack Obama (http://web.archive.org/web/20161107233356/https://www.whitehouse.gov/administration/president-obama)
It is amazing how focused trump is on the winning part of the election...

too bad he doesn't seem to know what to do AFTER the whole winning part.

also...
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/07/us/politics/melania-trump-libel-suit-daily-mail.html?ref=politics&_r=0
ethics? what ethics? I wanna make money!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Feb 07, 2017, 05:24PM
We have an extreme intellectual coward in the White House (http://www.newsweek.com/eichenwald-kellyanne-conway-massacres-facts-553860). That clearly has a lot to do with why his supporters like him so much.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 07, 2017, 05:36PM
It is amazing how focused trump is on the winning part of the election...

At least he didn't point out that he got more votes in a Presidential election than any other white male in history.  :D


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 07, 2017, 05:47PM
At least he didn't point out that he got more votes in a Presidential election than any other white male in history.  :D

Well, he did get more than any Trump in history.

He also got more than any orange-haired candidate in history (note: population was much smaller in Jefferson's time).

 :razz: :razz:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 07, 2017, 08:24PM
Yemen is a sovereign nation, right?  Is it legal for us to go there without a visa? 

Just curious.  I guess I should avoid laziness enough to google it, but I can't be bothered today.  Maybe later. 

It turns out we had permission to do commando stuff in Yemen, but... not anymore.

Yemen Withdraws Permission for U.S. Antiterror Ground Missions (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/07/world/middleeast/yemen-special-operations-missions.html)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 07, 2017, 08:50PM
It turns out we had permission to do commando stuff in Yemen, but... not anymore.

Yemen Withdraws Permission for U.S. Antiterror Ground Missions (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/07/world/middleeast/yemen-special-operations-missions.html)

Well, that's going great so far. You'd think you could just elect someone president who didn't know what the **** he was doing and it would work out just fine.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 07, 2017, 10:36PM
You'd think you could just elect someone president who didn't know what the **** he was doing and it would work out just fine.

It seemed fool-proof, didn't it? but here we are, just two weeks in...


Leaks Suggest Trump’s Own Team Is Alarmed By His Conduct
White House leaks are common, but leakers suggesting the president might be unfit for office are not. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-administration-leaks_us_589a45f1e4b04061313a1fbb?)

Quote
President Donald Trump was confused about the dollar: Was it a strong one that’s good for the economy? Or a weak one?

So he made a call ― except not to any of the business leaders Trump brought into his administration or even to an old friend from his days in real estate. Instead, he called his national security adviser, retired Lt. Gen. Mike Flynn, according to two sources familiar with Flynn’s accounts of the incident.

Flynn has a long record in counterintelligence but not in macroeconomics. And he told Trump he didn’t know, that it wasn’t his area of expertise, that, perhaps, Trump should ask an economist instead.

Trump was not thrilled with that response ― but that may have been a function of the time of day. Trump had placed the call at 3 a.m., according to one of Flynn’s retellings ― although neither the White House nor Flynn’s office responded to requests for confirmation about that detail.

For Americans who based their impression of Trump on the competent and decisive tycoon he portrayed on his “Apprentice” TV reality shows, the portrait from these and many other tidbits emerging from his administration may seem a shock: an impulsive, sometimes petty chief executive more concerned with the adulation of the nation than the details of his own policies ― and quick to assign blame when things do not go his way.

I suppose we can presume the above incident happened while he was in his tighty-whiteys since the White House officially denies (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4196754/Trump-blasts-failing-NY-Times-making-stories.html) Trump ever wears a bathrobe.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Feb 07, 2017, 10:46PM
God help us all

(to the surprise of certain conservative members of this esteemed forum, some liberals do actually believe in God)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 08, 2017, 11:16AM
The latest is that Trump rage-tweeted Nordstrom's department store for dropping Ivanka's clothing line.

Aside from the utter un-presidentiality and pettiness of this, he apparently did it during his daily intelligence briefing.

http://www.mediaite.com/online/does-trump-tweet-about-nordstrom-being-mean-while-in-intelligence-briefings/

The overlooked thing here is the utter inappropriateness of his flagrantly using the presidency to direct business to his family's enterprises, and to punish those who don't go along. When is the GOP going to stand up to him and put a stop to this?

I don't see how anyone can still defend him. I think he's off his rocker.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 08, 2017, 11:28AM
The latest is that Trump rage-tweeted Nordstrom's department store for dropping Ivanka's clothing line.

Aside from the utter un-presidentiality and pettiness of this, he apparently did it during his daily intelligence briefing.




I'm going to guess that the White House "situation room" is now all about up to the minute reports on how Trump businesses are doing.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 08, 2017, 11:38AM
He is doing much, much worse than I expected. The people who say 'Give him a chance' are overlooking the fact that he quickly blew his chance, with his overwhelming incompetence, corruption, and immaturity. He's ignoring the best people in his administration and heeding the worst. He's flagrantly using his office to promote his family's financial interests. He's completely reneged on his promise to take populist stands against the GOP establishment, and shows no signs of doing so.

If he stays in office for four years, it might save his failing businesses, but it will be bad for everyone else.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Feb 08, 2017, 05:04PM
The latest is that Trump rage-tweeted Nordstrom's department store for dropping Ivanka's clothing line.

Aside from the utter un-presidentiality and pettiness of this, he apparently did it during his daily intelligence briefing.

http://www.mediaite.com/online/does-trump-tweet-about-nordstrom-being-mean-while-in-intelligence-briefings/

The overlooked thing here is the utter inappropriateness of his flagrantly using the presidency to direct business to his family's enterprises, and to punish those who don't go along. When is the GOP going to stand up to him and put a stop to this?

I don't see how anyone can still defend him. I think he's off his rocker.

There are one or two people in this forum who will defend him.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 08, 2017, 05:32PM
There are one or two people in this forum who will defend him.

I really want to hear it. How can it be okay for businesspeople to face presidential retribution if they don't buy his daughter's products? He's making Berlusconi look like Lincoln.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 08, 2017, 05:37PM
Sorry, but both Ronkny and Snorsworthy are not allowed on this Forum.  Otherwise you'd get no end of justification for what Trump is doing.  I guess if either of them sends me something worthy of posting I'll transfer it over.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Feb 08, 2017, 06:58PM
I was wondering what had happened to Ronkny.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on Feb 09, 2017, 04:53AM
There are one or two people in this forum who will defend him.

I think, maybe, he's referring to DD and Badger.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 09, 2017, 09:10AM
I got a submission from Ronkny and I thought this was worth a share:

I just love when liberals can speak for us like slide advantage does. NOT.

I personally voted for Trump because I like some of his ideas such as LESS (not no ( for the hyperbolic left)) regulation to bring back businesses. I like lower corporate tax rates to bring back businesses. I like a stronger military since more than half of the planes in the Navy are grounded. China and Russia have become emboldened by wussy/ line in the sand, Obama.

Trump is obnoxious and says stupid things. And he's a terrible public speaker.But at least you know where he stands even if it's wrong.  Yes. He's partially bad for our country and partially good for our country. Just like Hillary would have been. Except with Hillary it would be worse. Politics needed a good kick in the ass. And since justices like Ginsberg have become political I'm glad we'll have at least one if not 3 more conservative justices that will follow the Constitution and not morph it into a lefty playbook.

These lefty geniuses on the forum only think in black and white. "If you voted for Trump you support him 100%." Not true.
 
BTW, Conservatives are not welcome on the PP site. It's totally inhospitable to those of us towards the right. The lefties and co. gang up like a bunch of wolves to attack anyone on the right. I think it's the mentality of the left. They feel safer when they are in packs where they can reassure each other and harumpf one another. It's a safe zone for them.
...

http://www.chicksontheright.com/sen-tim-scott-exposes-hypocrisy-left-reading-racist-hate-mail-senate-floor/

In the interest of fairness.  Edited for readability and removed a personal comment.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 09, 2017, 09:32AM
No, we don't know "where he stands" because so much he campaigned on turned out to be a lie. 

Getting tough on Wall Street? Getting tough on Pharma?  Even prosecuting Hillary? Poof! All gone.

And those are just the ones he's had time break in the first two weeks.



And I recall Ginsburg making one statement about Trump ( and then retracting and apologizing for making it.)

Quote
"He is a faker," she said of the presumptive Republican presidential nominee, going point by point, as if presenting a legal brief. "He has no consistency about him. He says whatever comes into his head at the moment. He really has an ego. ... How has he gotten away with not turning over his tax returns? The press seems to be very gentle with him on that."

It looks like Ginsburg and ronky have just about the same evaluation of Trump yet somehow one voted for him and one didn't.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: bhcordova on Feb 09, 2017, 09:48AM
But, he's Pro-Life and he's not Hillary! 


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on Feb 09, 2017, 09:58AM
Getting tough on Wall Street? Getting tough on Pharma?  Even prosecuting Hillary? Poof! All gone.
Don't forget draining the swamp, the first promise broken by his transition team and now appointed underlings.

Truth to tell, has he actually upheld ANY of his promises yet?

- We know he talks about the wall, but congress isn't jumping to pay for it, and he's threatening war with mexico because they won't pay for it.
- The muslim ban that isn't...
- Repealing obamacare... funny how end of month became end of year.
- Bring jobs back... no luck so far, though he is about ready to kill a lot of jobs in a trade war.
- Tax goods from china and mexica... we're still in NAFTA, and those taxes would tax US people, not china or mexico.
- Renegotiate Iran deal... as he alienates the alies he would need to do that with...

Seems like the biggest thing he has done so far is attack private companies enough that there are actually computer programs now scanning his tweets, and shorting stocks of companies he goes after.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 09, 2017, 10:32AM
Well, this is totally unfair...

(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16641051_10158159146455414_1745359020082972027_n.jpg?oh=70ccea6a917ebbfd11b862095aae1a38&oe=593C97F3)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on Feb 09, 2017, 10:38AM
Truth. I haven't watched SNL in years... the donald won the election. Skits have gotten much better. :)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 09, 2017, 10:47AM
Like Robcat, I don't believe for a second we know where he stands. He just says whatever sounds good or might help him, and discards these 'convictions' like paper towels.

The disheartening part is that most of the validly 'populist' ideas he's had seem to have been left behind. He made a big deal during the primary debates about being the only GOP candidate who wouldn't touch Medicare and Social Security. He could actually fulfill this promise, single-handedly, using veto power. Yet bills are being proposed right now to reduce these benefits, or partly privatize them, or turn them into block grants, or raise eligibility age, etc. Where is Donald Trump? He has time to shill for his daughter's Chinese-made gewgaws, but he can't send out one tweet saying "Congress needs to quit wasting time with there SS and Medicare plans. SAD! Its DEAD IN THE WATER when it gets to my desk!" (spelling is intentional)

He boasted that only he can stand up to the pharma industry (and made a big deal out of it, both during the campaign and after the election), ridiculing the previous admins for their 'terrible deal' because the gov't can't directly negotiate prices. Then he met with industry leaders and they ate his lunch. He completely reversed course after the meeting.

He bragged that he could stand up to Wall St., and specifically promised to eliminate the absurd 'carried interest' loophole for hedge fund managers. Heard anything about that lately?

He said, in plain language, that everyone would have medical insurance under his plan. Wanna bet me on that?

He promised, explicitly and repeatedly to release his tax returns after his audit, so the people who voted for him could evaluate his presidential decisions against his business interests. He's simply abandoned that, even though he could easily do it, and instead is using his office to promote his family's businesses and attack private businesses for his political benefit.

So no, we don't know where he stands, except as possibly the most incompetent, unqualified, and openly corrupt president in history. I doubt that he even knows where he stands. He sits around in his bathrobe and waits for Steve Bannon to tell him.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on Feb 09, 2017, 10:57AM
speaking of shilling goods....

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/09/us/politics/kellyanne-conway-ivanka-trump-ethics.html
Quote
“Go buy Ivanka’s stuff is what I would say,” Ms. Conway, whose title is counselor to the president, said in an interview with Fox News. “I’m going to give a free commercial here: Go buy it today everybody, you can find it online.”

Federal ethics rules state that an employee of the government’s executive branch “shall not use his public office for his own private gain, for the endorsement of any product, service or enterprise, or for the private gain of friends, relatives, or persons with whom the employee is affiliated in a nongovernmental capacity.” Legal experts said Ms. Conway appeared to have violated those rules.

“You couldn’t think of a clearer example of violating the ban of using your government position as kind of a walking billboard for products or services offered by a private individual,” said Laurence Tribe, a professor of constitutional law at Harvard. “She is attempting quite crudely to enrich Ivanka and therefore the president’s family.”


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 09, 2017, 11:03AM
I'll grant Ronkny one thing: not everyone who voted for Trump completely likes or agrees with him, including Ronkny.

But he answered my question--it's impossible to defend Trump.

He didn't cite any of the things Trump has actually done as evidence of his competence (and he's signed dozens of Bannon's executive orders). Surely out of all of those things, one or two of them would have improved Americans' lives, or their standing in the world. He didn't explain or defend Trump's flagrant corruption, by using his office to promote his family's or his supporters' businesses. He doesn't defend Trump's destructive, impulsive public tirades against our reliable allies.

Instead, he makes a lot of comments about 'lefties' and cites some very vague promises that Trump shows no signs of fulfilling.

So the answer is, Trump can't be defended, based on his actual performance.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: bhcordova on Feb 09, 2017, 11:42AM
But, but, he's Pro-Life (he said so), and he's not Hillary.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 09, 2017, 11:50AM
But, but, he's Pro-Life (he said so), and he's not Hillary.

In the past he's said he was pro-choice also.  And he's a friend of Bill and Hill. ;)

And for the Atlanta folks, he's also a friend of Kraft, Belichik, and Brady.  Incidentally, I think we are up to 4 players on the Patriot squad who won't be attending the White House reception.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 09, 2017, 01:53PM
Low-information voters >>> low-information President

Trump denounced arms-reduction treaty in Putin call: report (http://thehill.com/policy/national-security/318733-trump-denounced-arms-reduction-treaty-in-putin-call-report#.WJy8Rcyj6dg.facebook)

Quote
Asked by Putin about the possibility of extending the treaty capping U.S. and Russian deployment of nuclear warheads — known as New START — Trump reportedly paused to ask his aides what the treaty was, two U.S. officials and one former U.S. official briefed on the call told Reuters.

He then told Putin it was one of a number of bad deals negotiated by former President Barack Obama and that it favored Russia, before launching into a conversation about his own popularity, according to the sources.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 09, 2017, 03:14PM
I don't recall Obama having to fire anyone three weeks in.

Reports: White House Cybersecurity Officer Abruptly Removed From Position (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/reports-white-house-cybersecurity-chief-abruptly-removed)

No reasons given yet, so we have to wonder... was he being too security careless? 

Or was he being too security careful for the tastes of his Russian mole higher ups?  :dontknow:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 09, 2017, 05:57PM
Maybe he wasn't using an anti-virus product from one of Trump's son's businesses, who the heck knows :dontknow:.  Given the string of trash, 'alternate facts' and outright lies coming out of the White house these days I feel certain we will never know the real reason.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: mwpfoot on Feb 09, 2017, 06:25PM
My guess? He told them they were being reckless regarding cyber security and they showed him the door.

 :idea:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 09, 2017, 06:28PM
I suspect there are going to be some hilarious tell-all books... after the Trump Presidency.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Feb 09, 2017, 06:39PM
I suspect there are gong to be some hilarious tell-all books... after the Trump Presidency.

So maybe late Summer ...


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 09, 2017, 06:46PM

So maybe late Summer ...

After we emerge from our bomb shelters? :evil:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Feb 09, 2017, 07:23PM
I got a submission from Ronkny and I thought this was worth a share:

In the interest of fairness.  Edited for readability and removed a personal comment.

Wow. I guess I should be flattered. But I never stated I spoke for everyone.

Ronkny is an a**


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 09, 2017, 09:30PM
Louie was first appointed to his position by President Barack Obama ...


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 09, 2017, 10:13PM
Louie was first appointed to his position by President Barack Obama ...

Quite true, but I'd want to have a replacement ready before dumping somebody in that  position.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 09, 2017, 11:15PM
Louie was first appointed to his position by President Barack Obama ...

Yeah, Trump's stuck with all those old appointees because he didn't do his job when he got there. He never really prepared for the presidency during the campaign, and his transition staff mostly quit because he wasn't paying them (sound familiar?).

When he had the weight of creating the most powerful gov't in the world in a matter of weeks, he lost interest and just farted around (apparently, holding more rallies for no good reason appealed to him more than doing the job he was elected to). Now he wastes time quarrelling with SNL, Nordstrom, etc., etc., and shilling for the Chinese junk his daughter imports. He wastes time watching Fox and Friends and tweeting out stuff he hears them say.

So, yes, he's stuck with a bunch of people he didn't hire, because he couldn't get around to replacing them.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Feb 10, 2017, 03:09AM
Is it a political position? Any reason to believe Mr. Louie was letting his political beliefs get invthe way of doing his job?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 10, 2017, 06:40AM
Louie was first appointed to his position by President Barack Obama ...
Well, there you go.  That's reason enough to fire him.  Who cares if he is spectacular at his job or not?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 10, 2017, 06:52AM
Woulda been funny if Obama had never told Trump about all those positions he could fill with his own picks and just left them in place.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Digidog on Feb 10, 2017, 07:54AM
Does anybody here think that there is a risk that the transgressions of the Trump administration could provoke some states, like CA, to secede the federation?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 10, 2017, 08:07AM
Does anybody here think that there is a risk that the transgressions of the Trump administration could provoke some states, like CA, to secede the federation?

I say no.  There is no legal or practical way to do that.

The only way for a state to legally secede would be for a new amendment to the US Constitution to be passed defining a process for that.

From a practical standpoint, California has no standing army (neither does any other state) that could enforce its claim of independence  against the rest of the Union while the US government has numerous military bases already in CA.

Also, the public sentiment in CA would never get to the point of serious secession anyway. It is easier to wait Trump out than to try to split form the Union.

Secession will never happen.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: bhcordova on Feb 10, 2017, 08:15AM
Texas has been trying to secede for as long as I can remember, and it never gets enough votes to pass.  Also, didn't the civil war settle the question?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Feb 10, 2017, 08:19AM
Yeah, Trump's stuck with all those old appointees because he didn't do his job when he got there. He never really prepared for the presidency during the campaign, and his transition staff mostly quit because he wasn't paying them (sound familiar?).
 
When he had the weight of creating the most powerful gov't in the world in a matter of weeks, he lost interest and just farted around (apparently, holding more rallies for no good reason appealed to him more than doing the job he was elected to). Now he wastes time quarrelling with SNL, Nordstrom, etc., etc., and shilling for the Chinese junk his daughter imports. He wastes time watching Fox and Friends and tweeting out stuff he hears them say.
 
So, yes, he's stuck with a bunch of people he didn't hire, because he couldn't get around to replacing them.

I'm not sure it's fair to criticize him because he didn't prepare since he clearly had no idea what he was getting in to.

<Edit: duplicate post removed>


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: timothy42b on Feb 10, 2017, 10:51AM
Texas has been trying to secede for as long as I can remember, and it never gets enough votes to pass. 

Well............Texas did secede successfully once, from Mexico.  That's one of the risks of welcoming immigrants. 


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 10, 2017, 11:10AM
The only recent peaceful secession I can recall anywhere in the world was the departure of Slovakia from what was Czechoslovakia. That was handled amicably by passing relevant statutes.

In U.S. law, the Supreme Court ruled in Texas v. White (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_v._White) that states can not secede, past, present or future. Any secession resolution passed in a state would have no zero merit because of that. No one would be required to recognize it.

If you want to secede you will need to have the muscle to make everyone else, including the rest of the world that has trade and relations with the original union, treat you that way..

 




Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 10, 2017, 11:18AM
I think secession is impossible. The people supporting Trump are (statistically) lightly educated, ill-informed people who love guns. Because of our antiquated electoral process, their votes are over-counted, so a relative handful or dunderheads can elect a president that people of normal or better intelligence can see plainly as unqualified and unsuitable.

If a state like California, made up of bright, prosperous people who basically carry the rest of the US economy, tried to unpin themselves from the dumbasses who are ruining the country with their ignorance, the Trumpites would fire themselves up in fake patriotism and get their itchy fingers on their guns.



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 10, 2017, 11:23AM
I should point out that these "dumbasses" you talk about won because half the electorate stayed home.  This was an unusually low turnout (normally 1/3 stay home).  Maybe the Comey letter contributed, or the very high polls for Clinton encouraged her supporters to assume that someone else would carry the load.  Trump won by under 100,000 votes in 3 states, which was enough to swing the election.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on Feb 10, 2017, 11:24AM
Dunno about impossible, and legality wouldn't matter... would likely result in another civil war regardless. Though CA would be best served if Oregon and Washington went along with them. And then if they could get a good chunk of new england to break off on the other side, for one country to become three. Many of the big red states have a lot of land, but much smaller populations, and very little money.

But yeah... that basically means the equivalent of mobilizing NYC against NY state in bloody warfare. Not something to be done lightly.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on Feb 10, 2017, 11:29AM
I should point out that these "dumbasses" you talk about won because half the electorate stayed home.  This was an unusually low turnout (normally 1/3 stay home).  Maybe the Comey letter contributed, or the very high polls for Clinton encouraged her supporters to assume that someone else would carry the load.  Trump won by under 100,000 votes in 3 states, which was enough to swing the election.

Actually, the turnout in this election was the largest in our history based on total votes cast. Percentage wise, maybe not, but I got my ass handed to me on another forum for making that claim.
 


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 10, 2017, 11:32AM
The problem with a civil war is the smart people would lose it. Even in the blue Western states, there are red sections largely in the eastern portions that would oppose secession. All these dopes who've wasted their lives building an armory in their home in the vain hope that a burglar would show up would finally have someone to shoot at.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 10, 2017, 11:38AM
Actually, the turnout in this election was the largest in our history based on total votes cast. Percentage wise, maybe not, but I got my ass handed to me on another forum for making that claim.
 

Here are some statistics of voter turnout:

(http://www.electproject.org/_/rsrc/1418698470662/national-1789-present/National%20Turnout%201789-2014.jpg)

In 2016, 55% voted.  The average from about 1900 was around 60%.  I'm proud to report that in the last election, New Hampshire had the highest turnout at 68% (Hawaii was lowest at 34%).


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 10, 2017, 11:52AM
The percentage turnout figures are not completely sure things. I believe they presume everyone 18 and over is able to vote and don't account for portion that couldn't vote if they did turn out because of registration and residency restrictions.


I guarantee you, once the minority voters that the new voter ID laws were crafted to exclude get all the IDs and papers they need to vote again, someone is going to start hollering about "voter ID fraud" and there will be a new round of maneuvers to make it difficult to vote again.



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on Feb 10, 2017, 12:08PM
The problem with a civil war is the smart people would lose it. Even in the blue Western states, there are red sections largely in the eastern portions that would oppose secession. All these dopes who've wasted their lives building an armory in their home in the vain hope that a burglar would show up would finally have someone to shoot at.
I wouldn't confuse an image association with guns with actual ability or meaningful supplies. Someone may have 16 different arms in their closet, but that doesn't mean many of them are really all that useful. My own contains things like a muzzle loaded black powder rifle I'd rather not go to war with.

A battle of any length, and a civil war almost certainly would be, is much more about lines of supply... which is really how the north crippled the south... lookup Anaconda Plan or Scott's Great Snake. That combined with hurting interior long transport lines like railroads... ugh.

Did was it the end of the south? No. But it seriously crippled them to allow for the eventual end.

Hence the comment about if the entire west coast could go together...


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: timothy42b on Feb 10, 2017, 12:54PM
Hence the comment about if the entire west coast could go together...

Given the San Andreas fault, that scenario is not entirely unrealistic............


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 10, 2017, 01:05PM
B0B, your reply is more thoughtful than mine, but in the end the military also supports Trump, and would in any case remain loyal to the union (as I would hope).


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 10, 2017, 04:51PM
the MAD Magazine View...

(right-click and choose "View image" to see a readable size.

(http://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/scalefit_970_noupscale/589b6fb12900002100f252e8.jpeg)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 11, 2017, 07:17AM
I suspect there are going to be some hilarious tell-all books... after the Trump Presidency.

On the other hand... maybe they won't be able to.  He's making everyone sign non-disclosure agreements (http://www.politico.com/blogs/donald-trump-administration/2016/12/non-disclosure-agreements-232275).

Quote
Back in April, Trump told The Washington Post that he intended to make high-ranking government officials sign such agreements. “When people are chosen by a man to go into government at high levels and then they leave government and they write a book about a man and say a lot of things that were really guarded and personal, I don’t like that,” Trump said.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 11, 2017, 11:07AM
Calling his bluff...

FEC Commissioner Asks Trump To Release Evidence Of Voter Fraud (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/fec-comissioner-calls-on-trump-voter-fraud-claims-nh)

Quote
Federal Elections Commissioner Ellen Weintraub released a statement Friday calling on President Donald Trump to provide any information he might have about voter fraud in New Hampshire after reports that he told senators he believes that illegal voting cost him the state and cost former Sen. Kelly Ayotte (R-NH) her seat.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Feb 11, 2017, 11:38AM
Calling his bluff...

FEC Commissioner Asks Trump To Release Evidence Of Voter Fraud (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/fec-comissioner-calls-on-trump-voter-fraud-claims-nh)


I wouldn't hold my breath. Trump is full of hot air.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 11, 2017, 12:02PM
Calling his bluff...

FEC Commissioner Asks Trump To Release Evidence Of Voter Fraud (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/fec-comissioner-calls-on-trump-voter-fraud-claims-nh)


Trump won in all the border towns near Massachusetts (at least in my part of the state).  He lost because of his personality and the Yahoos he had supporting him in the Republican Party.  Kelly Ayotte lost a VERY close race.  Maggie Hassan was a very popular governor and that's what probably provided the edge.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 11, 2017, 12:12PM
Back in '09 or '10 I went to an Obamacare demonstration that had both fer-its and agin-its there.

I recall one woman, who was an agin-it, kept wandering around saying, "Where are all the buses?  Where are they hiding all the buses that brought in these phoney Obama lovers? Where are they hiding them?"


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 11, 2017, 12:20PM
Nearly indistinguishable...

Newspaper uses photo of Alec Baldwin on 'SNL' instead of Trump (http://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-know/in-the-know/319076-newspaper-uses-photo-of-alec-baldwin-on-snl-instead-of-trump)


(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C4VkdTcWIAAkbvZ.jpg)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Posaunus on Feb 11, 2017, 03:03PM
Calling his bluff...

FEC Commissioner Asks Trump To Release Evidence Of Voter Fraud (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/fec-comissioner-calls-on-trump-voter-fraud-claims-nh)

Quote
Federal Elections Commissioner Ellen Weintraub released a statement Friday calling on President Donald Trump to provide any information he might have about voter fraud in New Hampshire after reports that he told senators he believes that illegal voting cost him the state and cost former Sen. Kelly Ayotte (R-NH) her seat.


Tantatmount to submitting her resignation, I'd say!   :dont: 

Is Mr. T terminally delusional?  Or just lying? 

Either way, it's time to drag out the 25th Amendment! 


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Graham Martin on Feb 11, 2017, 03:09PM
Is Mr. T terminally delusional?  Or just lying? 


I am seriously thinking his behaviour looks more and more like dementia.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 11, 2017, 03:16PM
He's always been very egocentric and delusional.  He lives in a bubble where he can do no wrong and anything bad that happens is somebody else's fault.  He still can't understand why anybody didn't vote for him.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 11, 2017, 03:28PM
Trump won't be going away anytime soon.  He's got a large faction behind him that loves everything he does now and doesn't care about the later result.

Tears for Fears (https://thenib.com/tears-for-fears)



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Feb 11, 2017, 03:55PM
Trump is the bully that everyone had in their school...the one that they wish they had been brave enough to knock the crap out of


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Feb 11, 2017, 04:29PM
From the Washington post:

U.S. immigration authorities arrested hundreds of undocumented immigrants in at least a half-dozen states this week in a series of raids that marked the first large-scale enforcement of President Trump’s Jan. 25 order to crack down on the estimated 11 million immigrants living here illegally.

Officials said the raids targeted known criminals, but they also netted some immigrants without criminal records, an apparent departure from similar enforcement waves during the Obama administration. Last month, Trump substantially broadened the scope of who the Department of Homeland Security can target to include those with minor offenses or no convictions at all.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 11, 2017, 04:48PM
Yup.  Hotel maids, washroom attendants, produce pickers, and restaurant bus boys are all getting nabbed.  Even if they have been working here for the past 15 years and paying taxes.  But Fearless Leader promised he'd send them home. These are no drug dealers; they are generally good people.  Think Canada can absorb a few?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Feb 11, 2017, 05:04PM
Canada will accept 300,000 immigrants this year.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 11, 2017, 05:46PM
Some numbers on how people approve of Trump...

(http://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/scalefit_630_noupscale/589e424125000026000b850b.png)





mean while...

From the Washington post:

U.S. immigration authorities arrested hundreds of undocumented immigrants in at least a half-dozen states this week in a series of raids that marked the first large-scale enforcement of President Trump’s Jan. 25 order to crack down on the estimated 11 million immigrants living here illegally.


Lets say "hundreds" means about 500?

At that rate of 500 per week it will take 423 years to clear out the 11 million illegal immigrants


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 11, 2017, 07:51PM

...

Either way, it's time to drag out the 25th Amendment! 

He has to p i s s off Pence first - give it a few more weeks.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 11, 2017, 08:01PM
...
Lets say "hundreds" means about 500?

At that rate of 500 per week it will take 423 years to clear out the 11 million illegal immigrants

When he was campaigning it was estimated that he'd never be able to find and deport 11 million illegal immigrants (not that there actually are  that many.  And while a lot of them are Mexican, many are not.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 13, 2017, 07:13AM


Turmoil at the National Security Council, From the Top Down (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/12/us/politics/national-security-council-turmoil.html?src=trending&module=Ribbon&version=context&region=Header&action=click&contentCollection=Trending&pgtype=article)


Quote
WASHINGTON — These are chaotic and anxious days inside the National Security Council, the traditional center of management for a president’s dealings with an uncertain world.

Three weeks into the Trump administration, council staff members get up in the morning, read President Trump’s Twitter posts and struggle to make policy to fit them. Most are kept in the dark about what Mr. Trump tells foreign leaders in his phone calls. Some staff members have turned to encrypted communications to talk with their colleagues, after hearing that Mr. Trump’s top advisers are considering an “insider threat” program that could result in monitoring cellphones and emails for leaks.



Recall that national security adviser, Michael T. Flynn, was politely fired from the Obama administration because he was terrible at running an organization.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 13, 2017, 10:32AM
Power Diplomacy...


Justin Trudeau Just Showed The World How To Shake Hands With Donald Trump
The Canadian prime minister wasn’t about to let his arm get ripped off. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/justin-trudeau-trump_us_58a1dc96e4b03df370d8a29b?)

Quote
President Donald Trump has a weird way of shaking hands. His herky-jerky grappling style sometimes makes it look like he’s fighting with the other person, and maybe even trying to rip their arm out of its socket. But Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau appeared prepared for an uncomfortable greeting when he visited the White House on Monday.

A video of Trump welcoming Trudeau shows the prime minister quickly grasping the president’s shoulder with his left arm, seemingly bracing for a potential pull. Trudeau then brings the handshake close and toward his center, cutting off Trump’s leverage and ensuring that his shoulder remains intact.


update...

(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16684037_10155835763808327_5501138654054204489_n.jpg?oh=701c09aa737015301da2b135324a9005&oe=5900EFB5)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 13, 2017, 08:13PM
General Flynn is certifiably bipartisan... he's had to resign from both Democratic and Republican administrations now.

Donald Trump’s National Security Adviser Michael Flynn Resigns (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-michael-flynn-resigns_us_589e43f5e4b03df370d68bde?jx07f5jthvqkyy14i&)

I recall SoS Alexander Haig got shown the door pretty fast during Reagan's first year but this has got to be a record, no?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 13, 2017, 08:29PM
Haig got shown the door after the Reagan assassination attempt.  If you recall, Reagan was in the hospital and the VP (GHW Bush) was in transit and Haig said "I'm in charge for now" which ignored the fact that the Speaker of the House was technically the President.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 13, 2017, 08:44PM
Haig got shown the door after the Reagan assassination attempt.  If you recall, Reagan was in the hospital and the VP (GHW Bush) was in transit and Haig said "I'm in charge for now" which ignored the fact that the Speaker of the House was technically the President.

That's how I recall it too, but now that I look into it he wasn't out until more than a year after that, July 1982.  (Reagan was shot in March 1981).

I remember a report about how Haig had a habit of threatening to resign if he didn't get his way on this policy or that and everyone got so tired of it that one day Reagan said, "OK, sorry to see you go! Good luck!"  :D and Haig suddenly had to scramble to put together a plausible resignation statement for the reporters.


But Flynn is definitely a contender for fastest in and out.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 14, 2017, 11:17AM
Apparently Trump has known about this since Jan. 27th and let the record stand uncorrected (that no discussion over sanctions took place prior to inauguration) until the Washington Post broke the story. I suspect that without press involvement the coverup would have continued. Flynn's the fall guy for what's already the most corrupt and dishonest administration in history.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: mwpfoot on Feb 14, 2017, 11:20AM
Apparently Trump has known about this since Jan. 27th

Does Donald Trump ever really know anything, though?

 :dontknow:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on Feb 14, 2017, 11:44AM
Is it any surprise that Trump is firing people before he even has his team in place yet?

Conway has been taking heat recently, as well as Spicer... wouldn't be surprised to see one of them replaced with Trump's recent empty mouthpiece from this past sunday's sendout.

Per his timing of action... well, yes. The only things that matter to Trump is a) his adviser gives council that Trump likes and agrees with b) the optics and how he looks as president. Flynn may have had A, but he became a liability with the recent story break.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 14, 2017, 12:17PM
I'd like to see one of the Trumpistas defend Trump on this.

KellyAnne Conway said that the president continued to include Flynn in high-level security meetings after he got the heads-up from the Justice Dept. that they had transcripts of Flynn's back-door diplomacy. What's particularly galling about this is that the JD's warning to the White House was that Flynn might be susceptible to blackmail. So why was Flynn allowed in the meetings, during a time that the Trump team now claims it was 'investigating' him? Wouldn't it have made sense to exclude him from potentially sensitive information during that investigation?

The Trump team has offered no good explanation of this.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on Feb 14, 2017, 12:27PM
I'd like to see one of the Trumpistas defend Trump on this.
Yeah... you won't. What you are likely to see instead is defending trump, but not on these things, and distracting from questions asked about it. Seems to be fairly standard fare these days... just look at how rarely white house officials speaking to the press actually answer their questions.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 14, 2017, 01:18PM
Republicans thought they were going to be on easy street when Hillary won.  All they'd have to do for four years is shout "Huma Abedin is a Muslim terrorist!"

But Donald ruined everything by winning and now they have to put a good face on letting actual Russian agents infiltrate our government.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 14, 2017, 09:07PM
Business as usual...



Trump Campaign Aides Had Repeated Contacts With Russian Intelligence (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/14/us/politics/russia-intelligence-communications-trump.html?smprod=nytcore-iphone&smid=nytcore-iphone-share&mtrref=t.co&gwh=5902C2FFE9E97A0B604CA6D3F0E9E950&gwt=pay)

Quote
WASHINGTON — Phone records and intercepted calls show that members of Donald J. Trump’s 2016 presidential campaign and other Trump associates had repeated contacts with senior Russian intelligence officials in the year before the election, according to four current and former American officials.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: vito on Feb 15, 2017, 02:42AM
I'll wager that President Pence isn't elected to a full term of his own.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on Feb 15, 2017, 03:17AM
Im not surprised someone was fired... historically early... for making trump look bad.

What does actually surprise me is how bad the white house has handled this. It's like catching a middle schooler in a lie and their story keeps changing and getting more incriminating...


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on Feb 15, 2017, 09:41AM
Not one for tit for tat political mess, but I have to admit, he has a point...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/donald-trump-russia-hillary-clinton-fbi-letter-accusation-question-twitter-robby-mook-a7581316.html


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 15, 2017, 11:02AM
Obama Shadow Government. Bad.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: mwpfoot on Feb 15, 2017, 11:04AM
Obama Shadow Government. Bad.

 :rolleyes:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 15, 2017, 11:05AM
Trump now afraid of shadows.

That's the brave leadership we need.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 15, 2017, 11:13AM
Obama Shadow Government. Bad.

What exactly does that mean? Is that the latest catch phrase on those goofy web sites you frequent? If so, I'm sure we'll all get tired of it soon.

In case you didn't notice, Obama is no longer president, but you're bound to bring him up in every post anyway. I'm sure he's doing something wrong, like expressing his opinions as a citizen as if we have a right to free speech or something.

I notice you've given up on trying to defend Trump, and I don't blame you.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 15, 2017, 11:18AM
The latest (and this is straight from Pence) is that after the content of Flynn's conversations was revealed to Trump, he still didn't tell Pence. Pence learned about it from the Washington Post, according to his spokesman.

Why would that be, exactly? It seems plain that Trump intended to hide the whole thing until the press got wind of it. That's why he's whining about leaks. Funny how much he liked leaks before when the shoe was on the other foot.



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: elmsandr on Feb 15, 2017, 11:35AM
What exactly does that mean? Is that the latest catch phrase on those goofy web sites you frequent? If so, I'm sure we'll all get tired of it soon.

In case you didn't notice, Obama is no longer president, but you're bound to bring him up in every post anyway. I'm sure he's doing something wrong, like expressing his opinions as a citizen as if we have a right to free speech or something.

I notice you've given up on trying to defend Trump, and I don't blame you.

Well, it does happen to be the cover of this week's National Enquirer...

http://www.nationalenquirer.com/ (http://www.nationalenquirer.com/)

But, I'm sure that is a coincidence.

Cheers,
Andy


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 15, 2017, 11:44AM
Well, it does happen to be the cover of this week's National Enquirer...

http://www.nationalenquirer.com/ (http://www.nationalenquirer.com/)

But, I'm sure that is a coincidence.

Cheers,
Andy

Nice to find out where DDickerson gets his information.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 15, 2017, 11:45AM
Nice to find out where DDickerson gets his information.

You have no way of knowing. LOL!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 15, 2017, 11:51AM
You have no way of knowing. LOL!

Why?  You in cahoots with the FSB? :evil:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 15, 2017, 11:56AM
Why?  You in cahoots with the FSB? :evil:

I never heard of FSB, so I guess I'm not in cahoots.  :D


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 15, 2017, 12:01PM
You have no way of knowing. LOL!

Sure I do.

It's sort of like when some cockamamie idea pops up on Fox & Friends, and a few seconds later Trump tweets it. I'll go with the odds. You either got it from the Enquirer or a similarly reliable source.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 15, 2017, 12:09PM
I never heard of FSB, so I guess I'm not in cahoots.  :D

FSB is the modern incarnation of NKVD (or KGB if you are not quite as old as I think you are).


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 15, 2017, 12:28PM
Why?  You in cahoots with the FSB? :evil:

He's not directly in cahoots with them, but he's a fifth columnist because he supports and defends their agents in the US.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 15, 2017, 12:43PM
I remember when the right wing insisted Obama was "weak" and "feckless" but now that he's out of office he's master of an ominous shadow government that is thwarting all of Donald Trump's genius plans.  :dontknow:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 15, 2017, 12:46PM
I remember when the right wing insisted Obama was "weak" and "feckless" but now that he's out of office he's master of an ominous shadow government that is thwarting all of Donald Trump's genius plans.  :dontknow:

Never can trust them Mooselims :evil: :evil:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 15, 2017, 02:05PM
I remember when the right wing insisted Obama was "weak" and "feckless" but now that he's out of office he's master of an ominous shadow government that is thwarting all of Donald Trump's genius plans.  :dontknow:

To put this in context, imagine the reaction from the right if Obama had responded to a question about Putin's violence and oppression by basically saying, Hey, we're just as bad!, which is essentially what Trump said.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Feb 15, 2017, 03:14PM
What I find particularly galling is that the McConnell doesn't think that an independent bipartisan investigation into the Flynn matter is needed.

No one can convince to trust a Republican led investigation into alleged crimes committed by their own party.

The same clowns who are soft pedalling this issue are the same ones who excoriated Hillary over her emails and Benghazi.

GMAFB


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 15, 2017, 03:22PM
He's not directly in cahoots with them, but he's a fifth columnist because he supports and defends their agents in the US.

Congratulations! Your entire posting is a 100% lie.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 15, 2017, 03:37PM

Quote
A foreign agent (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_agent) is anyone who actively carries out the interests of a foreign country while located in another host country, generally outside the protections offered to those working in their official capacity for a diplomatic mission. Foreign agents may be citizens of the host country

You don't have to be a graduate of the spy school or be getting paid to be a foreign agent.

None-the-less, three of Trump's now-dismissed staff (Manafort, Page and now Flynn) have had financial relationships and gains either from the Russian government or front organizations for the Russian government.

Those are the ones we know about so far and we're just three weeks in.

Donald Trump's own finances remain a mystery. We really don't know where his loyalties and obligations lie.






Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Feb 15, 2017, 03:38PM
DD, please answer this question. Why is it that you never take issue with any (and there are many) disturbing things happening with Trump and his administration? Just wondering. You consistently jump all over Obama and Hillary yet when it comes to any issues with Republican leaders, you never criticize them.

This isn't a 'we won you lost so get over it' issue. This has nothing to do with party affiliation. It has to do with the security of this nation.

I can't believe that you don't think that there is a serious problem with the Russia/Trump connections. And please don't deny that there are such connections. More and more disturbing details are coming out every hour it seems. And it isn't fake news. This is real.

Without changing subjects or blaming Obama or Clinton, please answer my question.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 15, 2017, 03:52PM
Congratulations! Your entire posting is a 100% lie.

Well, it was meant as a joke (I don't ordinarily call people 'fifth columnists' in all seriousness), but thanks for the drama, and sorry I hurt your feelings. LOL!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Feb 15, 2017, 04:09PM
Well, it was meant as a joke (I don't ordinarily call people 'fifth columnists' in all seriousness), but thanks for the drama, and sorry I hurt your feelings. LOL!

I can tell you PM is guilty of peddling fake humor.
 
Trust me.
 
His fake humor posts are a disaster.
 
Very sad. Very very unfair.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 15, 2017, 05:35PM
DD, please answer this question. Why is it that you never take issue with any (and there are many) disturbing things happening with Trump and his administration? Just wondering. You consistently jump all over Obama and Hillary yet when it comes to any issues with Republican leaders, you never criticize them.

This isn't a 'we won you lost so get over it' issue. This has nothing to do with party affiliation. It has to do with the security of this nation.

I can't believe that you don't think that there is a serious problem with the Russia/Trump connections. And please don't deny that there are such connections. More and more disturbing details are coming out every hour it seems. And it isn't fake news. This is real.

Without changing subjects or blaming Obama or Clinton, please answer my question.

Obama = black

Hillary = woman

For the Texas redneck (BTW, not all Texans are rednecks, not by a long, long shot.  Most Texans are people of the wonderful sort) women and blacks cannot be trusted with, or in, positions of power and responsibility.  A white man, no matter how insane, is a better choice.  It has nothing whatsoever to with capability, stability, sanity, or the knack for doing disturbing things.  Nothing at all.  It has everything to do with color of the skin and the nature of the genitalia.

"Y'all caint have no lady presidunt.  No dang way!!!!"


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: timothy42b on Feb 15, 2017, 05:42PM
There is a very interesting article in the current (March/April) issue of Scientific American Mind.

It says that Trump succeeded in defining two groups of people - an in group and an out group - and aligned himself with the ingroup to the extent that a few minor character flaws were meaningless. 

Oversimplification of course, but the article is convincing in its analysis.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 15, 2017, 05:47PM
Obama = black

Hillary = woman

For the Texas redneck (BTW, not all Texans are rednecks, not by a long, long shot.  Most Texans are people of the wonderful sort) women and blacks cannot be trusted with, or in, positions of power and responsibility.  A white man, no matter how insane, is a better choice.  It has nothing whatsoever to with capability, stability, sanity, or the knack for doing disturbing things.  Nothing at all.  It has everything to do with color of the skin and the nature of the genitalia.

"Y'all caint have no lady presidunt.  No dang way!!!!"

That's a fair share of it, but a lot of it is just side-taking in place of actual judgment or thought. Imagine Hillary having won and having these scandals early on, and lying about the back-channel communication with our enemies, and disparaging the US, and sticking up for Putin. Now imagine what the reaction of DDickerson and the rest of the 'all-in-for-our-squad'-types would be.

It's fair to say that DD would not be so reticent to comment on the corruption of this regime if there were a big 'D' in front of the president's name. That's why choosing sides is a poor substitute for thinking.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Feb 15, 2017, 07:15PM
That's a fair share of it, but a lot of it is just side-taking in place of actual judgment or thought. Imagine Hillary having won and having these scandals early on, and lying about the back-channel communication with our enemies, and disparaging the US, and sticking up for Putin. Now imagine what the reaction of DDickerson and the rest of the 'all-in-for-our-squad'-types would be.
Notably though, contrary to what the Histrionic Right thinks (or thinks they think, really), most of the Left would be critical of that kind of nonsense from her as well, as incredulous as the thought experiment scenario is.
 
It's fair to say that DD would not be so reticent to comment on the corruption of this regime if there were a big 'D' in front of the president's name. That's why choosing sides is a poor substitute for thinking.
What's interesting today is that Trump has stepped close enough to the edge that he's flirting with going over the edge in plain public view. I don't think it's terribly surprising to anyone (and of course the Histrionic Right won't see it--not can't, won't), but it's getting problematic for the Republicans who are still trying very hard to cheer for Trump in the name of the home team. His hinges are barely maintaining enough of anything that functions like actual structural cohesion to remain hinges. Flynn's out because of the media's blind hatred and the conspiracy to cover up Clinton's loss ... ? On what planet does that kind of randomly flailing, pseudo-cognition actually register as rational, much less credible?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: gregs70 on Feb 15, 2017, 07:40PM
Obama = black

Hillary = woman

For the Texas redneck (BTW, not all Texans are rednecks, not by a long, long shot.  Most Texans are people of the wonderful sort) women and blacks cannot be trusted with, or in, positions of power and responsibility.  A white man, no matter how insane, is a better choice.  It has nothing whatsoever to with capability, stability, sanity, or the knack for doing disturbing things.  Nothing at all.  It has everything to do with color of the skin and the nature of the genitalia.

"Y'all caint have no lady presidunt.  No dang way!!!!"

I lived in Texas for 20 years.  Yep, most are wonderful people.  I remember governor Ann Richards, though.  Tough lady.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 15, 2017, 08:43PM
Only about 60% of Texans are from Texas these days, which has a lot to do with why so many are not cranks.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Feb 15, 2017, 09:30PM
I was born in Dallas and raised in the metroplex, and I couldn't agree more on your assessment of Texans.

I know a lot of nice native Texans  - my relatives for instance, who I think I know pretty well. But even they are stuck in an unenlightened view of things.

I think it is ingrained. They mean well, and don't consider themselves racist or sexist. But the attitudes are there. My aunt told me "we just need to keep that evil woman out of the White House....Trump is a good businessman and he can turn our country around!"

sigh



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 16, 2017, 11:49AM
Predictably, President* Trump is blaming the media for the shambles he's created. He even stuck up for Flynn and said he's a victim of the media.

There's only one problem with this--none of the damning facts in this case require the intermediation or interpretation of the media--they come directly from Trump and from members of his administration. Did Flynn get trashed by the dishonest media? Not according to Trump, whose press secretary plainly stated, over and over, that Flynn was let go for an erosion of trust.

All the other salient facts are available from primary sources as well:
1) The administration initially claimed the calls didn't take place, then admitted they took place but didn't discuss sanctions.
    This is derived from the administration's statements, including from Pence on the morning news shows.
2) Trump was informed about the content of Flynn's conversations in January.
    Trump himself now admits this.
3) Trump lied and claimed he didn't know about Flynn's situation.
    The lie came directly from Trump himself, not from any reporter or commentator.
4) Trump didn't publicly correct the record after learning the truth, until it was publicly reported.
    This is evident from Trump's own statements, regardless of which media outlet is conveying them.
5) Pence wasn't informed told that Flynn had lied about the conversations until he learned it from media reports.
    This came directly from Pence's spokesman.
6) Flynn was allowed to sit in on high-level national security meetings after the JD informed the administration that he had lied about the phone calls and might be subject to blackmail by the Russians.
    This came directly from Kellyanne Conway, who said that Flynn continued in his full capacity, including attending national security meetings, until he resigned.
7) Flynn's actions were inappropriate.
    If we believe the administration's account, this one comes from the administration and from Flynn himself. If he did nothing wrong, why did he lie about it, and why did Trump let him go, and what caused the 'erosion of trust'.

So here's my challenge to the people still defending Trump (and maybe there aren't any left):

Given that the Flynn controversy is based primarily on those facts, and they have all been either made by or stipulated to by the administration, what possible 'lie' has been created by the media to contribute to this? Even if we accept every word of the administration's story (after it quit reversing course), the administration behaved badly, dishonestly and carelessly. The 'dishonest media' did not make them do it.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 16, 2017, 12:00PM
Predictably, President* Trump is blaming the media for the shambles he's created. He even stuck up for Flynn and said he's a victim of the media.

There's only one problem with this--none of the damning facts in this case require the intermediation or interpretation of the media--they come directly from Trump and from members of his administration. Did Flynn get trashed by the dishonest media? Not according to Trump, whose press secretary plainly stated, over and over, that Flynn was let go for an erosion of trust.

All the other salient facts are available from primary sources as well:
1) The administration initially claimed the calls didn't take place, then admitted they took place but didn't discuss sanctions.
    This is derived from the administration's statements, including from Pence on the morning news shows.
2) Trump was informed about the content of Flynn's conversations in January.
    Trump himself now admits this.
3) Trump lied and claimed he didn't know about Flynn's situation.
    The lie came directly from Trump himself, not from any reporter or commentator.
4) Trump didn't publicly correct the record after learning the truth, until it was publicly reported.
    This is evident from Trump's own statements, regardless of which media outlet is conveying them.
5) Pence wasn't informed told that Flynn had lied about the conversations until he learned it from media reports.
    This came directly from Pence's spokesman.
6) Flynn was allowed to sit in on high-level national security meetings after the JD informed the administration that he had lied about the phone calls and might be subject to blackmail by the Russians.
    This came directly from Kellyanne Conway, who said that Flynn continued in his full capacity, including attending national security meetings, until he resigned.
7) Flynn's actions were inappropriate.
    If we believe the administration's account, this one comes from the administration and from Flynn himself. If he did nothing wrong, why did he lie about it, and why did Trump let him go, and what caused the 'erosion of trust'.

So here's my challenge to the people still defending Trump (and maybe there aren't any left):

Given that the Flynn controversy is based primarily on those facts, and they have all been either made by or stipulated to by the administration, what possible 'lie' has been created by the media to contribute to this? Even if we accept every word of the administration's story (after it quit reversing course), the administration behaved badly, dishonestly and carelessly. The 'dishonest media' did not make them do it.

The investigators have listened to the recordings of the phone calls and admits that there was no wrong doing. Flynn did not offer any illegal quid pro quos. Nothing. This is all fake news.



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on Feb 16, 2017, 12:05PM
The investigators have listened to the recordings of the phone calls and admits that there was no wrong doing. Flynn did not offer any illegal quid pro quos. Nothing. This is all fake news.
Interesting... Aside from that last sentence, didn't investigators look into Hillary's emails and conclude the same? Also Benghazi? And how many investigations did they launch into that?

PM isn't saying flint violated the law... just that he acted poorly and inappropriately, and the WH has contradicted themselves in their own story of what has happened. Which is true.

And the investigation should just be dropped? Per a guy who got too close with the russians, while supporting a campaign helped by the russians?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 16, 2017, 12:07PM
The investigators have listened to the recordings of the phone calls and admits that there was no wrong doing. Flynn did not offer any illegal quid pro quos. Nothing. This is all fake news.

Some of it probably is fake, because everything on that list came from the administration. They've changed their story several times, so somebody must have been lying, and they probably still are.

Despite your straw man argument, you'll notice that I did not say that Flynn offered any quid pro quo, nor that he did anything illegal. You're arguing with yourself on that one. You're calling this 'fake' when you're the one proposing it.

But if there was no wrongdoing in Flynn's handling of the matter, why did he lie about it, and why did Spicer say that there was an 'erosion of trust' between him and the president? Did his trust erode because Flynn did everything right?

Nice try, though. You're probably making as good a defense as could be made. LOL!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 16, 2017, 12:24PM

Nice try, though. You're probably making as good a defense as could be made. LOL!

They have the recordings that were illegally obtained, they listened to the tapes, they determined Flynn didn't do anything illegal, but, they wanted a scandal, so they created a scandal out of nothing.

In Hillary's case, the investigators were never given the evidence. The evidence was always withheld from the investigators. So, the investigation continues. Hillary was interviewed, not interrogated, and she basically answered none of the questions, so, again, no evidence was revealed to the investigators. Investigation continues.

Interesting that the intelligence agencies were quick to illegally release the evidence on Flynn,(which was stupid, because the illegally leaked evidence actually proves Flynn was innocent of wrong doing), but have yet to turn over the evidence for Hillary's investigation.

So, with a new sheriff in town, much to the chagrin of Hillary's gang, the evidence will be turned over to the investigators, and Hillary will be moving into a new government housing.



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 16, 2017, 12:34PM
Interesting... Aside from that last sentence, [...]

The last sentence--Ths is all fake news--is all he has now, and I mean both DT and DD.

"Fake news" started out with a rather specific meaning--news that was invented out of whole cloth for political or financial gain, with no belief in it by the people creating it--and has been repurposed by the dumb-erati to mean "news that's unfavorable to Trump." Eventually a parrot trained to repeat "FAKE NEWS" over and over will be assigned to the Sunday morning news shows.

But you'll notice that I listed seven facts that comport with the administration's current account of events. You'll notice that DDickerson was unable to rebut or contradict a single one of them (although he contradicted two points that he simply made up).

As far as 'the investigators' listening to the recordings and finding no wrongdoing, that's simply untrue. Wrongdoing and illegality aren't the same thing, and both the JD and WH investigators found wrongdoing in the form of lying about the contents of the conversations. That wrongdoing was sufficient for the Justice Dept. to issue a warning to Trump that Flynn might be compromised by the Russians, and it was sufficient for Trump, by his own account, to mistrust and fire Flynn.

LOL!



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 16, 2017, 12:37PM
They have the recordings that were illegally obtained, they listened to the tapes, they determined Flynn didn't do anything illegal, but, they wanted a scandal, so they created a scandal out of nothing.

Again, no onhere is claiming that Flynn did anything illegal. You're creating a point then arguing with it.

Were the tapes 'illegally obtained'? They were part of our routine surveillance of official Russians. Did the NSA break the law?

The people who are privy to the contents of the tape found sufficient wrongdoing (even if legal) to issue a warning to the president, and the president found sufficient wrongdoing to fire Flynn, publicly blaming him for a breach of trust. If Flynn did nothing wrong, why isn't he still on the job?



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 16, 2017, 12:46PM
Again, no onhere is claiming that Flynn did anything illegal. You're creating a point then arguing with it.

Were the tapes 'illegally obtained'? They were part of our routine surveillance of official Russians. Did the NSA break the law?
They were illegally leaked to the press. There was no wrong doing. The staffers that are still there that are loyal to Obama probably were the ones to leak the information.

The people, (Obama loyalists), who are privy to the contents of the tape found sufficient wrongdoing(if it is not illegal, why is it wrong doing, and who gets to make that call?), (even if legal) to issue a warning to the president, and the president found sufficient wrongdoing to fire Flynn,(that's not why Flynn was asked to resign), publicly blaming him for a breach of trust. If Flynn did nothing wrong, why isn't he still on the job? This was a Trump mistake.


[/quote]


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 16, 2017, 01:19PM
They were illegally leaked to the press. There was no wrong doing. The staffers that are still there that are loyal to Obama probably were the ones to leak the information.

You claimed the recordings were 'illegally obtained.' To my knowledge that is not true, despite the fact that you said it. The NSA obtained them. My understanding is the recordings were transcribed and the transcriptions were shared with the president, and that a description of that meeting was shared with the press. To my knowledge no one has published the transcriptions or illegitimately obtained the recordings. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

There are plenty of Republicans who don't want Trump cozying up to Putin, so characterizing Flynn's critics as "Obama loyalists" isn't entirely honest on your part. The GOP-dominated Intelligence Committee wants to investigate the matter.

Quote
This was a Trump mistake.

Fair enough--Trump screwed up, according to you. Why is he (and why are you) blaming the press and Obama loyalists for his own mistake? If he shouldn't have fired Flynn, and shouldn't have publicly declared 'an erosion of trust', why is that anyone's fault but his own?

You see, no matter how hard you flounder, you still can't make this make sense. And I'm using the Trump administration's own account! LOL!





Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on Feb 16, 2017, 01:20PM
The staffers that are still there that are loyal to Obama probably were the ones to leak the information.
That's pretty much 100% trump's fault. Something about going on a "thank you " tour instead of preparing and searching for his own staffers.

In fact, much of his administration and nominated positions are woefully incomplete. He complains about the slow pace of his unqualified cabinet people, but he has HUNDREDS of openings he has yet to even propose someone for yet. Even for many of his own positions, many were proposed late, and a good deal of the slowness was that vetting was still on-going when senate confirmations were scheduled.

Are these his well run business practices?  :rolleyes:

The people, who are privy to the contents of the tape found sufficient wrongdoing to issue a warning to the president, and the president found sufficient wrongdoing to fire Flynn
Only weeks later once it started to make Trump look bad...

This was a Trump mistake.
Yup. And as the man on top, ALL of the blame falls squarely on his shoulders for the way that it has been poorly handled... including his childish whining earlier today.



Trump - “To be honest, I inherited a mess, a mess, at home and abroad, a mess”

Awwwwwww, poor baby. Maybe he would prefer a global recession to inherit instead?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 16, 2017, 03:55PM
So let's sum up DDickerson's ringing defense of Trump and Flynn:

Flynn did nothing wrong at all, but lied about it to Trump and Pence anyway. Trump 'made a mistake' (DD's word) and accidentally fired Flynn and accidentally sent his press secretary out to publicly state that he'd lost 'trust' in the general.

None of this is Trump or Flynn's fault, but someone else. It's the fault of the media and of civil servants loyal to Obama that Flynn lied. It's also their fault that Trump fired Flynn and publicly dissed him.

It's also the liberal media's fault that there are still so few Trump appointees in the executive branch, because they made him go on pointless 'victory rallies' during the limited time he had to create a gov't. And it's their fault that he's chosen to take two golf weekends in his first month in office instead of doing his job.

DDickerson, your crocodile tears over the leaks aren't working, because you're one of the people who said the leaks that hurt Hillary weren't a problem because they were just revealing the truth to the public. Your sense of guiding principle and consistency extends to the end of your nose, which is growing by the minute. You're not doing a very good job of defending the president. Maybe you should give someone else a turn.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 16, 2017, 03:57PM
So let's sum up DDickerson's ringing defense of Trump and Flynn:

Flynn did nothing wrong at all, but lied about it to Trump and Pence anyway. Trump 'made a mistake' (DD's word) and accidentally fired Flynn and accidentally sent his press secretary out to publicly state that he'd lost 'trust' in the general.

None of this is Trump or Flynn's fault, but someone else. It's the fault of the media and of civil servants loyal to Obama that Flynn lied. It's also their fault that Trump fired Flynn and publicly dissed him.

It's also the liberal media's fault that there are still so few Trump appointees in the executive branch, because they made him go on pointless 'victory rallies' during the limited time he had to create a gov't. And it's their fault that he's chosen to take two golf weekends in his first month in office instead of doing his job.

DDickerson, your crocodile tears over the leaks aren't working, because you're one of the people who said the leaks that hurt Hillary weren't a problem because they were just revealing the truth to the public. Your sense of guiding principle and consistency extends to the end of your nose, which is growing by the minute. You're not doing a very good job of defending the president. Maybe you should give someone else a turn.

You're understanding is lacking.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: gregs70 on Feb 16, 2017, 04:08PM
You're understanding is lacking.

Hard to be credible when you don't know the difference between "you're" and "your".


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 16, 2017, 04:42PM
Hard to be credible when you don't know the difference between "you're" and "your".

Aside from that, he still couldn't manage to say what part of my summary was wrong. It's easier to claim someone isn't 'understanding' than to defend his indefensible position.

DDickerson is saying Flynn did nothing wrong (and as B0B often pointed out vis-ŕ-vis Hillary, 'nothing wrong' is different from 'nothing illegal'). But that doesn't explain:

1) Why did Flynn lie about the calls, first by denying having made them, then lying about the content?
2) Why did Trump fire Flynn?
3) Why did Trump publicly and repeatedly declare, through his spokesman, that he had lost faith in Flynn?

Even if we stipulate that Flynn did nothing illegal, none of the events above is consistent with Flynn having done nothing wrong. Even the President* has admitted that Flynn committed wrongdoing by lying about the nature of the calls, but he hasn't addressed the motivation for doing so.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Posaunus on Feb 16, 2017, 04:46PM
C'mon, trombonists - there must be someone else on the Forum beside Dusty who can defend our President.  Let's hear from them, 'cuz poor Dusty is really getting beat up here.   :dontknow:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 16, 2017, 05:02PM
There's a damning circumstance here, which relies not a whit on the corrupt and lying liberal press.

Why did Trump apparently try to sweep this under the rug? Both Spicer and Trump have said that Trump found Flynn's dissembling unacceptable, but he didn't act on this 'erosion of trust' until the thing was made public by leaks. Even Spence, by his own admission, was not told by Trump that the official line he was putting out on behalf of the Trump administration was completely false. He read it in the paper.

It seems obvious to me that Trump's 'erosion of trust' was entirely fake, and was precipitated by public knowledge of the deceit that Trump wished to keep secret. If someone can find a better explanation of the sequence of events, I'd like to hear it.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on Feb 16, 2017, 05:03PM
As the random aside, because it was trump's random aside, he felt the need to lie about his election again.

"And then coming to Washington and pursuing their own interests which is more important to many politicians. I’m here following through on what I pledged to do. That’s all I’m doing. I put it out before the American people, got 306 electoral college votes. I wasn’t supposed to get 222. They said there’s no way to get 222, 230’s impossible.

270 which you need, that was laughable. We got 306 because people came out and voted like they’ve never seen before so that’s the way it goes. I guess it was the biggest electoral college win since Ronald Reagan. In other words, the media’s trying to attack our administration because they know we are following through on pledges that we made and they’re not happy about it for whatever reason."



QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) said today that you have big intellectual margins (inaudible) 300 or more (ph), or 350 (ph) electoral (ph) votes. President Obama about 365 (OFF-MIKE).

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: Yeah.

QUESTION: Obama (OFF-MIKE) 426 on (OFF-MIKE). So why should Americans...

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: ...I’m skipping that information, I don’t know, I was just given (ph) we had a very, very big margin.

QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) why should Americans trust you (OFF-MIKE) the information (OFF-MIKE)?

TRUMP: Well, I don’t know, I was given that information. I was given — I actually, I’ve seen that information around. But it was a very substantial victory, do you agree with that? OK thank you, that’s...


oops...


He did explain what he meant by "fake news" though... it was all about "tone" and how "story after story after story is bad". Because really "I do get good ratings, you have to admit that".

In fact, he mentioned ratings 4 times in his press conference. The election/elector college 24 times. "Won/Win" 22 times.

What he didn't mention even once? Substantive Policy.

He's still very much in election and reality tv mode...


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 16, 2017, 05:06PM
Didn't want to be the only adult in the room?


Reports: Trump's Pick To Succeed Flynn As NatSec Adviser Turns Down Job (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/reports-robert-harward-turns-down-national-security-advisor-trump)

Quote
Retired Vice Admiral Robert Harward turned down President Donald Trump's offer of the position of White House national security adviser on Thursday, according to reports by CBS News and the Financial Times.

Harward turned down the job after the White House resisted his demands to install his own staff on the security council, CBS News reported, citing two unnamed sources close to the situation.

At particular issue was the position of deputy national security adviser. According to CBS News' report, Trump told KT McFarland that she could keep her job after former National Security Adviser Michael Flynn resigned on Monday, but Harward refused to retain her as his deputy.

Former FOX News analyst KT McFarland (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K._T._McFarland) has an interesting past littered with what you might call serious missteps for someone who wants to be taken seriously, like outing her dying gay brother and claiming she helped write Ronald Reagan's "Star Wars" speech.

Quote
Harward, a Navy Seal, served on President George W. Bush's National Security Council. He also served as Deputy Commander of the United States Central Command when it was under the command of General James Mattis, now Trump's secretary of defense.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on Feb 16, 2017, 06:23PM
ok... so another part I missed...

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-asks-reporter-to-set-up-the-meeting-with-congressional-black-caucus/?ftag=CNM-00-10aab6a&linkId=34585752

Feels so much like a sitcom except the joke isn't a joke.

Quote
Journalist April Ryan, who serves as the White House correspondent and Washington bureau chief for American Urban Radio Networks, followed up: “When you say the inner cities, are you going to include the CBC, Mr. President, in your conversations with your urban agenda?”

When Mr. Trump seemed unfamiliar with the “CBC” acronym, Ryan, who is black, clarified: “Are you going to include the Congressional Black Caucus -- “

The president interrupted: “Well I would. I’d tell you what -- do you want to set up the meeting?

“Do you want to set up the meeting?” the president pressed again. “Are they friends of yours?”

dear lord... talk about the racist grandpa...


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Feb 16, 2017, 06:55PM
Predictably, President* Trump is blaming the media for the shambles he's created. He even stuck up for Flynn and said he's a victim of the media.
 
There's only one problem with this--none of the damning facts in this case require the intermediation or interpretation of the media--they come directly from Trump and from members of his administration. Did Flynn get trashed by the dishonest media? Not according to Trump, whose press secretary plainly stated, over and over, that Flynn was let go for an erosion of trust.
 
All the other salient facts are available from primary sources as well:
1) The administration initially claimed the calls didn't take place, then admitted they took place but didn't discuss sanctions.
    This is derived from the administration's statements, including from Pence on the morning news shows.
2) Trump was informed about the content of Flynn's conversations in January.
    Trump himself now admits this.
3) Trump lied and claimed he didn't know about Flynn's situation.
    The lie came directly from Trump himself, not from any reporter or commentator.
4) Trump didn't publicly correct the record after learning the truth, until it was publicly reported.
    This is evident from Trump's own statements, regardless of which media outlet is conveying them.
5) Pence wasn't informed told that Flynn had lied about the conversations until he learned it from media reports.
    This came directly from Pence's spokesman.
6) Flynn was allowed to sit in on high-level national security meetings after the JD informed the administration that he had lied about the phone calls and might be subject to blackmail by the Russians.
    This came directly from Kellyanne Conway, who said that Flynn continued in his full capacity, including attending national security meetings, until he resigned.
7) Flynn's actions were inappropriate.
    If we believe the administration's account, this one comes from the administration and from Flynn himself. If he did nothing wrong, why did he lie about it, and why did Trump let him go, and what caused the 'erosion of trust'.
 
So here's my challenge to the people still defending Trump (and maybe there aren't any left):
 
Given that the Flynn controversy is based primarily on those facts, and they have all been either made by or stipulated to by the administration, what possible 'lie' has been created by the media to contribute to this? Even if we accept every word of the administration's story (after it quit reversing course), the administration behaved badly, dishonestly and carelessly. The 'dishonest media' did not make them do it.

We have a large segment of society that understands reality to be whatever those they recognize as valid authorities say is real and true, with no other functioning standard (valid authorities means those who affirm their personal sensibilities). This all translates into a large segment of people who don't understand the nature of true vs. false or real vs. fake or just unreal. It's finally becoming so clear that fewer and fewer are managing to miss this fact of the modern world.
 
We also have a large segment of society, pretty much the same population as above, who don't understand honesty very well at all. Again, it's based solely on what affirms their sensibilities. They apparently genuinely don't understand that any other standards apply--they "know" they're right (in other words they're at least allegedly very comfortable presuming they're right, or rather that the authorities they accept as valid are, which as explained is entirely circular since what makes an authority valid is that the "authority" affirms their personal sentiments). They have such a shaky relationship with reality and honesty that they actually have no problem with simply declaring anything they don't agree with as fake and false and lies and such. There are no actual standards behind this "conclusion", only their personal sensibilities. This fact is quite apparent in their utter failure to offer any rational or consistent support of their positions, and their frequent self-contradictions, which are quite often strikingly transparent (they're not so good at critical thinking, to put it rather mildly).
 
These people are authoritarian followers. Without a large enough contingent of followers to command, authoritarian leaders are just cartoonish buffoons with obviously tenuous relationships with truth and reality, but when enough of the followers jump on board a leader's bandwagon it can get pretty ugly. We're seeing the start of that now (actually we've been seeing this develop for decades, it's just that most only notice when they can't help but--when the image fills too much of their field of view to see past it). The important question at hand is how well our system of government can guard the noble ideals it's based upon. Authoritarians would have us violate them in extreme and fundamental ways in a profoundly misguided and self-serving notion of upholding them. It's probably not stating things too strongly to say that if you don't understand authoritarianism you don't understand the root of our toxic social climate--the problem that's produced President Trump.
 
http://www.whale.to/b/authoritarian_personality_traits.html
 
http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/
 
Quote
Authoritarian Followers (http://theauthoritarians.org/donald-trump-and-authoritarian-followers/)

We know a lot about authoritarian followers, but unfortunately most of what we know indicates it will be almost impossible to change their minds, especially in a few months. Here are some things established by experiments. See if you recognize any of these behaviors in Trump supporters. Compared with most people:

They are highly ethnocentric, highly inclined to see the world as their in-group versus everyone else. Because they are so committed to their in-group, they are very zealous in its cause. They will trust their leaders no matter what they say, and distrust whomever the leader says to distrust.

They are highly fearful of a dangerous world. Their parents taught them, more than parents usually do, that the world is dangerous. They may also be genetically predisposed to experience stronger fear than people skilled at “keeping their heads while others are losing theirs.”

They are highly self-righteous. They believe they are the “good people” and this unlocks a lot of hostile impulses against those they consider bad.

They are aggressive. Given the chance to attack someone with the approval of an authority, they will lower the boom.

They are highly prejudiced against racial and ethnic minorities, non-heterosexuals, and women in general.

They will support their authorities, and even help them, persecute almost any identifiable group in the country.

Their beliefs are a mass of contradictions. They have highly compartmentalized minds, in which opposite beliefs live independent lives in separate boxes. As a result, their thinking is full of double-standards.

They reason poorly. If they like the conclusion of an argument, they don’t pay much attention to whether the evidence is valid or the argument is consistent. They especially have trouble realizing a conclusion is invalid.

They are highly dogmatic. Because they have mainly gotten their beliefs from the authorities in their lives, rather than think things out for themselves, they have no real defense when facts or events indicate they are wrong. So they just dig in their heels and refuse to change.

They are very dependent on social reinforcement of their beliefs. They think they are right because almost everyone they know and listen to tells them they are. That happens because they screen out sources that will suggest that they are wrong.

Because they severely limit their exposure to different people and ideas, they vastly overestimate the extent to which other people agree with them. And thinking they are “the moral majority” supports their attacks on the “evil minorities” they see in the country.

They believe strongly in group cohesiveness, and being loyal. They are highly energized when surrounded by a crowd of fellow-believers because it makes them feel powerful and supports their belief that “all the good people” agree with them.

They are easily duped by manipulators who pretend to espouse their causes when all the con-artists really want is personal gain.

They are largely blind to themselves. They have little self-understanding and insight into why they think and do what they do. They are heavily into denial.

I hasten to add that studies find examples of all these things in lots of others, not just authoritarian followers. But not as consistently, and not nearly as much.

If you are the kind of person who would NOT make a good authoritarian follower, you will be wondering “What’s the evidence?” for all these assertions. The scientific evidence, which has stood the test of time for decades now, is at your fingertips.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Feb 16, 2017, 06:59PM
C'mon, trombonists - there must be someone else on the Forum beside Dusty who can defend our President.  Let's hear from them, 'cuz poor Dusty is really getting beat up here.   :dontknow:

The healthy sense of shame for dishonesty prevents most from trying very hard, because most have at least a marginally functional gauge for it.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: bhcordova on Feb 16, 2017, 07:42PM
Reminder for all - Don't attack forum members.  This violates the TOU and can result in being banned.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 16, 2017, 08:00PM
Really the issue isn't Dusty but his arguments (or lack thereof) in support of Trump's policies. 


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 16, 2017, 08:17PM
News outlets unable to agree on how many "crazy moments" (https://www.google.com/search?q=Trump++Press+Conference+Crazy++moments&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8#q=Trump+Press+Conference+Crazy+moments) were in President trumps news conference today.

Anywhere from HuffPost's "seven" to Rolling Stone's "eighteen".

I think we're suffering from crazy inflation.

I recall when Ross Perot only needed one crazy per news conference to get headlines.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 16, 2017, 08:57PM
Really the issue isn't Dusty but his arguments (or lack thereof) in support of Trump's policies. 

My argument is that Flynn didn't do anything wrong. His phone calls were recorded, and if there were a scintilla of illegal conversation, he would be in jail right now. There was nothing. So, instead, they invent all this fake news about what they think should have happened.

The fact that there are so many people on here that are this gullible to fake news is what's sad.

You can make all the claims you want, but Flynn is a free man because he did nothing wrong, and you people can't stand it. So, go ahead and take it out on me. I don't mind a bit.



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Feb 16, 2017, 09:11PM
My argument is that Flynn didn't do anything wrong. His phone calls were recorded, and if there were a scintilla of illegal conversation, he would be in jail right now. There was nothing. So, instead, they invent all this fake news about what they think should have happened.

The fact that there are so many people on here that are this gullible to fake news is what's sad.

You can make all the claims you want, but Flynn is a free man because he did nothing wrong, and you people can't stand it. So, go ahead and take it out on me. I don't mind a bit.



How's that Kool-Aid tasting?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 16, 2017, 09:12PM
This one never had rails to go off, did it?

It's not poor old Frump's fault.  He said today that everything that was leaked was true, but the reporting of those facts was 'fake news'.  When I heard him say that I knew the truth.  He's and idiot.  An absolute babbling lizard anus, and cannot be held responsible for what is happening.  His mental situation leaves him blameless.

DD is absolutely right, everything that is f'd up about the current 'administration' (term used with caution) is obviously the fault of Obama and Clinton.  :good:  After all, they are the only ones in this 'thing' (for want of a printable term, debacle does not seem strong enough ) that have the intelligence to pull this off.

I have a new theory to explain, and I hope DD backs me up on this. This whole planetary embarrassment (the Frump 'administration') is actually a ploy masterminded by Clinton and Obama to put an end to the credibility of the GOP.  Isn't it obvious?  It's been in the works for a while.  How else do you explain the shimmy as Clinton realized the master plan was being taken hook, line and sinker?  She obviously set up the whole private email server deal to provide a plausible way for her to loose the election, thereby putting into power an utter moronic squid aligned with the GOP, but who they knew would bring shame, confusion and denial to the party.  And Putin?  Yeah - he's on the Clinton payroll too.  Brilliant, eh?

And who do you suppose was her coach through the entire affair?  You guessed it.  Obama!!!  You know, that guy's whole birth record thing from Hawaii was 'fake news'?  Yeah, he's really a Moslem that was born in Kenya.  Just ask Frump and DD.  They'll tell ya.  The Hawaiians will fake anything for $5.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Feb 16, 2017, 09:33PM
Apparently Petraeus is a candidate to replace Flynn.

Re: MP

"Mr Petraeus, a celebrated former four-star general, retired as CIA director in 2012 after it emerged he had given top-secret material to his biographer, with whom he was also having an extramarital affair.

He is still serving two years' probation after his conviction for mishandling classified information, and would need to notify his parole officer if he wished to move to Washington DC."

You couldn't make this stuff up.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 16, 2017, 09:37PM
My argument is that Flynn didn't do anything wrong. His phone calls were recorded, and if there were a scintilla of illegal conversation, he would be in jail right now. There was nothing. So, instead, they invent all this fake news about what they think should have happened.

Even Trump doesn't agree that Flynn did nothing wrong.

Again, you're making an argument against something no one has claimed. No one here has claimed Flynn broke the law. I will give Flynn the benefit of the doubt that he did not cross a legal line in those conversations because he's not facing charges.

But if your standard of 'right and wrong' is 'didn't go to jail', then you don't think Hillary did anything wrong, either, and you're not willing to follow any consistent principle in that manner. I think there should be a standard of performance higher than 'avoided jail time' for public servants, but maybe you set the bar lower.

The news is neither fake nor invented. Which part shouldn't they have reported? Should they not have reported that the Trump administration publicly criticized Flynn and fired him? You just squawk out 'fake news' at everything you don't like. It's ridiculous and juvenile.

If I'm wrong, please tell us which fact reported in regard to this is invented. Tell us which is fake, instead of just parroting.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 16, 2017, 09:43PM
Quote
you're not willing to follow any consistent principle

Yup, that's our beloved DD.

Quote
You just squawk out 'fake news' at everything you don't like.

But that is what his role model, Frump, does.  C'mon, go easy on DD.  Just look at who he admires!  It's not his fault he was brought up this way.  Do you really expect him to be better than his upbringing?  That would mean he'd have to be critical of his own thoughts and show some moral backbone.

Isn't moral backbone and critical thinking illegal in parts of Texas?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Posaunus on Feb 16, 2017, 11:21PM
ok... so another part I missed...

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-asks-reporter-to-set-up-the-meeting-with-congressional-black-caucus/?ftag=CNM-00-10aab6a&linkId=34585752

Feels so much like a sitcom except the joke isn't a joke.

dear lord... talk about the racist grandpa...

I think Trump is actually "@realArchieBunker"


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Posaunus on Feb 16, 2017, 11:36PM

Quote
Authoritarian Followers

We know a lot about authoritarian followers, but unfortunately most of what we know indicates it will be almost impossible to change their minds, especially in a few months. Here are some things established by experiments. See if you recognize any of these behaviors in Trump supporters. Compared with most people:
 

This analysis may explain many of the avid Trump supporters that we all know.  But, in my mind, it does NOT account for the ~52% of the U.S Congress (both House and Senate) who are not really avid Trump supporters, but are standing by bemusedly watching this train wreck of an administration, and taking no action to stop it!  I presume they are not all "authoritarian followers" but instead simply want to obtain/retain POWER and INFLUENCE - which most of us believe to be potentially corrupting. 


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Feb 16, 2017, 11:40PM
...
Isn't moral backbone and critical thinking illegal in parts of Texas?

Not in all parts  :cool:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on Feb 17, 2017, 04:55AM

The fact that there are so many people on here that are this gullible to fake news is what's sad.


Oh, look, isn't that sad? Everybody in the band is out of step except my little Johny!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Feb 17, 2017, 05:32AM
Oh, look, isn't that sad? Everybody in the band is out of step except my little Johny!

The thing is, I'm all about defending someone who's got a solid point that's being widely (and particularly actively) ignored or reviled, but when someone really has a solid point they tend to be able to articulate it, but even if not it holds up to scrutiny. When all they have to "argue" for their take are complaints like sad and very very unfair and absolutely nothing of any substance ... in fact nothing that's not overtly false, fallacious and/or self-contradictory, then the whining will fail to overcome the facts and sound reasoning and evidence being thrown at it.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 17, 2017, 05:35AM
Caption comedy...

Photos From Within Trump’s White House Are Why Photography Was Invented (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/photos-from-within-trumps-white-house-are-why-photography-was-invented_us_58a4f5fee4b045cd34be8c5f)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Feb 17, 2017, 06:02AM
Really the issue isn't Dusty but his arguments (or lack thereof) in support of Trump's policies.

Authoritarians and the authoritarian inclined make their thinking and behavior the issue though. It's still true when someone is at least doing a very strong impression of an authoritarian.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: bhcordova on Feb 17, 2017, 06:54AM


Isn't moral backbone and critical thinking illegal in parts of Texas?

As a Texan, I resent that statement.  It's the entire U.S.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 17, 2017, 08:40AM
David Brooks... (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/17/opinion/what-a-failed-trump-administration-looks-like.html)
Quote
It’s interesting how many of Bannon’s rivals have woken up with knives in their backs. Michael Flynn is gone. Reince Priebus has been unmanned by a thousand White House leaks. Rex Tillerson had the potential to be an effective secretary of state, but Bannon neutered him last week by denying him the ability to even select his own deputy.

In an administration in which “promoted beyond his capacity” takes on new meaning, Bannon looms. With each passing day, Trump talks more like Bannon without the background reading.





Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 17, 2017, 11:15AM
My argument is that Flynn didn't do anything wrong. His phone calls were recorded, and if there were a scintilla of illegal conversation, he would be in jail right now. There was nothing.

No matter how many times you repeat that, it doesn't make the stories 'fake news', because they did not report that the investigators found illegalities. They reported that the Justice Dept. warned the president that Flynn had lied about the conversations, and that Trump subsequently fired Flynn for 'erosion of trust'. Which of those facts is fake?

Quote
So, instead, they invent all this fake news about what they think should have happened.

Can you show even one example of this in a straight news story from a mainstream source? Give us a link.

You're in the same spot as Trump--complaining about the leaks but pretending the stories about them are fake. Fake news is made up by the person writing it. If the stories were made up, it wouldn't be necessary to look for the leakers because there wouldn't be any.

You're brave to try to defend Trump on this, but as has been pointed out, you're getting your ass handed to you because what you're saying plainly doesn't make sense.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 17, 2017, 11:16AM
the problem... his supporters think it's all masterful. (http://finance.yahoo.com/news/joe-scarborough-unloads-trumps-rambling-153703027.html)

Quote
"He may be at only 39% in the polls ... but I will tell you his hardcore supporters that I spoke to yesterday and all of my friends, they were in front of the TV set and they were laughing — and they weren't laughing at Donald Trump, they were laughing at the media," Scarborough said, referencing a Pew Research survey.

Conservative radio host Joe Walsh tweeted that an 80-year-old Navy veteran called into his program and said he had "been waiting 40 years for a president to do what Trump did to the media today." Conservative author Ann Coulter, a major Trump backer, tweeted: "Trump is already head of state. After that press conference, in my eyes, he's now head of church." And conservative radio host Rush Limbaugh said it was like nothing he'd ever seen.


Finally the top is just as dumb as the bottom and now the bottom can feel like they're just as smart as the top.

It doesn't matter if Trump is wrong about anything, just that he's against something they don't like.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 17, 2017, 11:24AM
You can make all the claims you want, but Flynn is a free man because he did nothing wrong, and you people can't stand it.

Sure, he did nothing wrong because he's a free man. Of course he was publicly disgraced as a liar, fired from his job and pilloried by the Trump administration as untrustworthy. So he did nothing wrong, because lying isn't wrong.

The one thing we can learn from this thread is that DD's principles flap limply in the wind.

He now believes that it's wrong to leak material and to publish leaked material. Last year he said there was no harm in it because it was just revealing the truth.

Now he's saying that if Flynn isn't in jail, that proves he's done nothing wrong. LOL! Imagine him applying that same statement to Hillary.

If all you do is choose sides, actual thought and consistent moral principles just get in the way.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Feb 17, 2017, 11:35AM
Sure, he did nothing wrong because he's a free man. Of course he was publicly disgraced as a liar, fired from his job and pilloried by the Trump administration as untrustworthy. So he did nothing wrong, because lying isn't wrong.

The one thing we can learn from this thread is that DD's principles flap limply in the wind.

He now believes that it's wrong to leak material and to publish leaked material. Last year he said there was no harm in it because it was just revealing the truth.

Now he's saying that if Flynn isn't in jail, that proves he's done nothing wrong. LOL! Imagine him applying that same statement to Hillary.

If all you do is choose sides, actual thought and consistent moral principles just get in the way.

OJ didn't do anything wrong; he was found not guilty!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 17, 2017, 11:47AM
The person who leaked this did it out either out of partisan antipathy toward Trump (either as a partisan holdover or out of resentment for his ridicule of intelligence agencies), or out of concern for the Trump's conduct in office, or trying to gain some advantage in office politics and palace intrigue. I view all three as being possible. For one thing, Flynn wasn't a favorite of Bannon.

What follows is rank speculation, but the timing suggests the second possibility. The leak didn't occur until some time after Trump was warned that Flynn might be susceptible to blackmail to cover his lies about the conversations. Even if you think that concern was overblown, someone must have believed it. Now you look at what happened afterward--according to KellyAnne Conway, Trump continued to include Flynn in high-level national security meetings after the warning. Plainly, Trump made no public statement correcting the record with regard to the calls. According to Pence, he was not informed of the warning and learned of it through 'media accounts.'

So a person with knowledge of the situation might have had the strong impression that Trump was going to ignore the warning, keep it a secret, and keep Flynn on. If this person genuinely believed (rightly or wrongly) that Flynn might pose a genuine security risk, the purpose of the leak might have been simply to force his hand and reveal the coverup.

Two things suggest this to me. One is that the person waited to give Trump a chance to respond, which would have been politically advantageous to Trump. If it were a political hatchet job, they would have released it early to cut him off at the pass. Also, the release was really the minimum necessary to get the job done. Someone trying to trash the administration might have released the transcripts or the actual recordings instead. It's possible, of course that the leaker didn't have access to them.

It's all speculation, of course, but I think a lot of these leaks (but not all of them) are being made out of genuine concern over Trump's behavior and fitness for office.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on Feb 17, 2017, 12:02PM
It's all speculation, of course, but I think a lot of these leaks (but not all of them) are being made out of genuine concern over Trump's behavior and fitness for office.
The last one, well, Bannon now has a place in the matter... Wouldn't surprised if he did the sabotage to oust him. There's a lot of jockeying going on in the top positions.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 17, 2017, 12:09PM
today's numbers...

(http://www.brilliantisland.com/images/trumpApproval.JPG)





Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Feb 17, 2017, 12:19PM
Another take. W Post:

In New York, the city is paying $500,000 a day to guard Trump Tower, according to police officials’ estimates, an amount that could reach $183 million a year.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Feb 17, 2017, 12:26PM
This is playing out like a Greek tragedy.
.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Feb 17, 2017, 12:40PM
Geek tragedy?

Greek comedy?

Farce?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 17, 2017, 02:22PM
In high school I was taught that "Greek Tragedy" is when the character has an escalating series of successes but is cut down in the end.

"Comedy" is when the character appears to be losing but triumphs in the end. I guess that would describe the campaign and election.

But now I'm afraid we're in a comedy with no punch line.




Another take. W Post:

In New York, the city is paying $500,000 a day to guard Trump Tower, according to police officials’ estimates, an amount that could reach $183 million a year.

For comparison , the budget of the National Endowment for the Arts is $146 Million.  I forget why that thing is even called an endowment.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 17, 2017, 03:01PM
Another take. W Post:

In New York, the city is paying $500,000 a day to guard Trump Tower, according to police officials’ estimates, an amount that could reach $183 million a year.
Why are they doing that??!!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 17, 2017, 03:22PM
Why are they doing that??!!

Aren't you glad you don't rent in Trump Tower?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Feb 17, 2017, 03:34PM
But if your standard of 'right and wrong' is 'didn't go to jail', then you don't think Hillary did anything wrong, either, and you're not willing to follow any consistent principle in that manner.
DD is the most consistent poster in here by far, actually, you just have to measure according to the actual basis for his positions rather than a reasonable or even rational one. In fact it's the utter lack of understanding regarding the latter that enables the uniquely extreme consistency regarding the former.
 
I think there should be a standard of performance higher than 'avoided jail time' for public servants, but maybe you set the bar lower.
Sure, that's easy for you to say, you're ready and willing to compromise your "principles" (by the definition so clearly indicated in the description above).


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 17, 2017, 03:41PM
DD is the most consistent poster in here by far, actually, you just have to measure according to the actual basis for his positions rather than a reasonable or even rational one. In fact it's the utter lack of understanding regarding the latter that enables the uniquely extreme consistency regarding the former.

I do get what you're saying. He's consistent in his purpose but not in his principles. That would embarrass me, but not everyone's easily embarrassed.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Feb 17, 2017, 03:42PM
This one never had rails to go off, did it?

Exactly ...
 
Now you're getting it!
 
It's not at all "off the rails" like the blindly hateful dishonest liberal fake news media would have us believe with their facts.
 
It was never on them, so it couldn't have gone off them. That's why we know the media are dishonest people.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 17, 2017, 04:47PM
I do get what you're saying. He's consistent in his purpose but not in his principles. That would embarrass me, but not everyone's easily embarrassed.

There's an old lawyer joke...

If the facts are against you, argue the law.
If the law is against you, argue the facts.
If both the facts and the law are against you, just argue!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Feb 17, 2017, 06:19PM
I do get what you're saying. He's consistent in his purpose but not in his principles. That would embarrass me, but not everyone's easily embarrassed.

It would embarrass you (and I) to be connected to such utterly bankrupt rhetoric because we know better. Same for most adults to various degrees (quite arguably all intellectual and/or psychological adults).


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 17, 2017, 08:57PM
Falling for fake news is like giving your bank account details to a forlorn Nigerian prince! LOL!

The dynamic of fake news is essentially the Nigerian-prince scam, albeit with a slightly different business model.
Organizations creating fake news depend on the same kind of true-believer responses as the Nigerian prince scammers: They want readers to either dismiss an article (“This is absurd!”) or pass it on (“I knew it all along!”). Both types of scams prey on people’s willingness or desire to believe the unbelievable, and they use fantastical, eye-catching stories to both ensnare and repel. It’s not a problem that some people are too smart or savvy to fall for a fake news story—because they’re not the target in the first place.



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Posaunus on Feb 17, 2017, 10:13PM
At last DDickerson is onto all the fake news being created by the Trump administration. 

Dusty, we're glad that you've finally seen through the Twitterstorm! 


Title: Laughing out loud, and I really mean it
Post by: Piano man on Feb 17, 2017, 10:52PM
Falling for fake news is like giving your bank account details to a forlorn Nigerian prince! LOL!

The dynamic of fake news is essentially the Nigerian-prince scam, albeit with a slightly different business model.

Organizations creating fake news depend on the same kind of true-believer responses as the Nigerian prince scammers: They want readers to either dismiss an article (“This is absurd!”) or pass it on (“I knew it all along!”). Both types of scams prey on people’s willingness or desire to believe the unbelievable, and they use fantastical, eye-catching stories to both ensnare and repel. It’s not a problem that some people are too smart or savvy to fall for a fake news story—because they’re not the target in the first place.

A little hint:
If you're going to copy someone else's writing and pretend it's your own, you should throw in some misspellings and bad writing so it sounds like you. You're well familiar to everyone here, and your writing style is distinctive, to put it as kindly as possible.

Does this look familiar?

Quote
The dynamic of fake news is essentially the Nigerian-prince scam, albeit with a slightly different business model.

Organizations creating fake news depend on the same kind of true-believer responses as the Nigerian prince scammers: They want readers to either dismiss an article (“This is absurd!”) or pass it on (“I knew it all along!”). Both types of scams prey on people’s willingness or desire to believe the unbelievable, and they use fantastical, eye-catching stories to both ensnare and repel. It’s not a problem that some people are too smart or savvy to fall for a fake news story—because they’re not the target in the first place.
https://qz.com/901758/falling-for-fake-news-is-like-giving-your-bank-account-details-to-a-forlorn-nigerian-prince/

Oopsy!

Doesn't take long to catch phonies these days.

LOL!



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 17, 2017, 10:54PM
At last DDickerson is onto all the fake news being created by the Trump administration. 

Dusty, we're glad that you've finally seen through the Twitterstorm! 

He is the fake news, and he just got caught at it. The funny thing was that I caught it because it was too well written.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 18, 2017, 04:54AM
Organizations creating fake news depend on the same kind of true-believer responses as the Nigerian prince scammers: They want readers to either dismiss an article (“This is absurd!”) or pass it on (“I knew it all along!”). Both types of scams prey on people’s willingness or desire to believe the unbelievable, and they use fantastical, eye-catching stories to both ensnare and repel. It’s not a problem that some people are too smart or savvy to fall for a fake news story—because they’re not the target in the first place.
  I agree with this little plagiarized note.  The Trump administration (I'm trying not to laugh at that term) is counting on people’s willingness or desire to believe the unbelievable.  The alternate facts, massacres that never happened, crowds that never appeared, a 'cabinet' that was put together faster than any other yet is still not complete, a well oiled machine that is missing more than a few gears.  The Trump administration is the go to source of fake news.  Even you cannot deny that DD.  No argument you come up with can counter the recorded facts.  With Conway, Spicer and the turd himself, Trump on video spewing forth an endless stream of lies, alternate facts and pure imaginary bunk, the embarrassing proof is dished out without mitigation by these jerks on a daily basis.


Title: Re: Laughing out loud, and I really mean it
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 18, 2017, 07:36AM
A little hint:
If you're going to copy someone else's writing and pretend it's your own, you should throw in some misspellings and bad writing so it sounds like you. You're well familiar to everyone here, and your writing style is distinctive, to put it as kindly as possible.

Does this look familiar?
https://qz.com/901758/falling-for-fake-news-is-like-giving-your-bank-account-details-to-a-forlorn-nigerian-prince/

Oopsy!

Doesn't take long to catch phonies these days.

LOL!



I really wasn't pretending, just too lazy to put it into quotes, but interesting you mention it, since you did the same thing a few days ago. I didn't change any of the words, because I'm not a good writer. But

BUT

BUT

don't let that detract you from the content.

Oh, it's too late. LOL!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 18, 2017, 07:38AM
At last DDickerson is onto all the fake news being created by the Trump administration. 

Dusty, we're glad that you've finally seen through the Twitterstorm! 

You wish! The fake news believers on this forum need to start questioning their sources.


Title: Re: Laughing out loud, and I really mean it
Post by: Piano man on Feb 18, 2017, 07:43AM
I really wasn't pretending, just too lazy to put it into quotes, but interesting you mention it, since you did the same thing a few days ago.
 

That, sir, is a lie. Show me the post.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 18, 2017, 08:05AM
You wish! The fake news believers on this forum need to start questioning their sources.

Pffffttt!  DD, you are the only fake news believer here.

Hey, give us one, just one, example of fake news from, lets say, the New York Times, or the Wall Street Journal, or the Chicago Tribune, the Washington Post, or the Boston Tribune or pick anther main-stream paper you are so fond of maligning.  Present the fake story and the proof that it is fake.  Just one DD - show us some backbone!

I know you won't as you have been invited here many times to back up your 'convictions' and have never doe so.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 18, 2017, 08:21AM
Psst -- It's the Boston Globe.  There's also a tabloid called the Boston Herald.

Incidentally, there's a $1,000 reward from the former head of the New Hampshire Republican Party for proof that buses of Massachusetts voters were imported to New Hampshire last year.

Also, if all those Democratic voters were imported to New Hampshire, how come the Republican candidate won the Governorship? :dontknow:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 18, 2017, 08:28AM
Psst -- It's the Boston Globe.
Ooops!  :/

Well, that's just a fake newspaper, not fake news...


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 18, 2017, 08:30AM
Also, if all those Democratic voters were imported to New Hampshire, how come the Republican candidate won the Governorship? :dontknow:
I'll never tell!!!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 18, 2017, 08:42AM
Pffffttt!  DD, you are the only fake news believer here.

Hey, give us one, just one, example of fake news from, lets say, the New York Times, or the Wall Street Journal, or the Chicago Tribune, the Washington Post, or the Boston Tribune or pick anther main-stream paper you are so fond of maligning.  Present the fake story and the proof that it is fake.  Just one DD - show us some backbone!

I know you won't as you have been invited here many times to back up your 'convictions' and have never doe so.

One of the latest is fake news reporting that Trump is sending in troops to pick up all the immigrants.

"Trump administration plan to send 100,000 troops to round up immigrants labelled 'despicable and un-American'
Leaked memo follows President’s repeated campaign pledges to deport millions of people from....."


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 18, 2017, 08:57AM
One of the latest is fake news reporting that Trump is sending in troops to pick up all the immigrants.

"Trump administration plan to send 100,000 troops to round up immigrants labelled 'despicable and un-American'
Leaked memo follows President’s repeated campaign pledges to deport millions of people from....."

You sure they weren't rounding up IT experts in Houston? :evil:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on Feb 18, 2017, 09:27AM
Gotta love Bill Maher....."President Trump, or, as the Russian's call him, "Agent Orange"'. Best line I've heard in a long time!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 18, 2017, 09:52AM
One of the latest is fake news reporting that Trump is sending in troops to pick up all the immigrants.

"Trump administration plan to send 100,000 troops to round up immigrants labelled 'despicable and un-American'
Leaked memo follows President’s repeated campaign pledges to deport millions of people from....."

Notice the swapping of words there.  DD claims the report said "Trump is sending in troops" but the news reports only say there is a plan being discussed.

And indeed there was a plan written up...

Trump Team Denies Report On National Guard, Then Admits It Was Based On A Real Document (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-administration-associated-press-national-guard_us_58a73fa6e4b045cd34c15611)

The AP got the document, gave the White House opportunity to deny it before they published a story on it and the White House didn't do that.







Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Feb 18, 2017, 10:03AM
More and more people seem to be far too comfortable presuming whatever their minds have been triggered to chase, so we get the situation we're in now. A huge part of that is lavishing them with attention for being absurd/deplorable in some way.
 
It's also often more about being needy than comfortable--those whose views are under fire from reality all the time. They should just label realities they don't like fake reality though, since obviously all they really need are comforting labels to apply everywhere they see things they're too cowardly to accept ... LOL.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 18, 2017, 10:04AM
One of the latest is fake news reporting that Trump is sending in troops to pick up all the immigrants.

"Trump administration plan to send 100,000 troops to round up immigrants labelled 'despicable and un-American'
Leaked memo follows President’s repeated campaign pledges to deport millions of people from....."

How do we know that's even from a mainstream source? You didn't offer any attribution. And the quote does not quite match your description of it.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 18, 2017, 10:05AM
You wish! The fake news believers on this forum need to start questioning their sources.

Speaking only for myself, I do that all the time. For instance, I no longer believe a single thing you say.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Feb 18, 2017, 10:06AM
Notice the swapping of words there.  DD claims the report said "Trump is sending in troops" but the news reports only say there is a plan being discussed.

And indeed there was a plan written up...

Trump Team Denies Report On National Guard, Then Admits It Was Based On A Real Document (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-administration-associated-press-national-guard_us_58a73fa6e4b045cd34c15611)

The AP got the document, gave the White House opportunity to deny it before they published a story on it and the White House didn't do that.

There you go again--looking under the label rather than just going with Alternative Facts™. You're the problem! You're trying to ruin everything for those who prefer to pretend what appeases them over what functionally applied honesty indicates is actual.
 
LOL


Title: Re: Laughing out loud, and I really mean it
Post by: Piano man on Feb 18, 2017, 10:07AM
I didn't change any of the words, because I'm not a good writer.

DDickerson gets his rhetoric from Donald Trump and his writing style from Melania.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 18, 2017, 10:30AM
Here's the thing--DDickerson has completely failed to give one real example of fake news from mainstream media. My experience with well-edited publications is if they make an error they issue a retraction.

His complaint about the Flynn matter is that Flynn wasn't charged with any crime, but every straight news story I've seen reported precisely that. Some accounts gave opinions of legal experts on what would constitute an unlawful transgression, but these are accurately reported as those experts' opinions. All of the main points of the story, which I listed in reply 256 (I think) have been admitted to by the administration. The lack of prosecution in the case is a red herring, because no one is reporting otherwise.

DD, if you can give an example of MSM misreporting the story, offer it. Short of that, you're starting to sound like Donald's parrot.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 18, 2017, 10:35AM
The president doesn't like the NYT or Washington Post for the same reason Nixon didn't. They report things he is trying to keep secret from the governed.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Feb 18, 2017, 10:55AM
The president doesn't like the NYT or Washington Post for the same reason Nixon didn't. They report things he is trying to keep secret from the governed.

So why do you think Nixon didn't just call it Fake News™ and drive on?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 18, 2017, 11:03AM
One of the latest is fake news reporting that Trump is sending in troops to pick up all the immigrants.

"Trump administration plan to send 100,000 troops to round up immigrants labelled 'despicable and un-American'
Leaked memo follows President’s repeated campaign pledges to deport millions of people from....."

The only paper I can see that is quoting 100K is a British paper called the Independent.  I have no idea who they are and if they are unbiased or not.

We'd have to ask our British members to weigh in on their credibility.

However, let's give them the benefit of the doubt.  Where's your proof it's fake?

The memo from Kelly they claim their head line from exists.  Have you read it?

I have.

Section D of the memo, under the heading Expansion of the 287(g) Program to Include State Units in the Border Region, states the following:

Quote
Pursuant to Title 32 of the United States Code, State National Guard components are employees of their respective states and are under the command of their respective Governors when they are not in federal service.  Based on their training and experience, these men and women are particularly well-suited to assist in the enforcement of federal immigration law and augment border security operations by Department components.

To maximize the participation by state and local jurisdictions in the enforcement of federal immigration law, I am directing the Director of ICE to engage with all willing and qualified law enforcement jurisdictions for the purpose of entering into agreements under section 287(g) of the INA.  Additionally, I am directing the Commissioner of CBP and the Director of ICE to immediately engage with the Governors of the States adjacent to the land border with Mexico and those States adjoining such border States for the purposes of entering into agreements under section 287(g) of the INA to authorize qualified members of the State National Guard, while such members are not in federal service, or qualified members of a state militia or state defence force under the command of the Governor, to perform the functions of an immigration officer in relation to the investigation, apprehension and detention of aliens in the United States.

How many members are there to law enforcement and the National Guard, state militia and state defense forces in the 10 states that are either adjacent to Mexico or adjoin those states adjacent to Mexico?  A guess at 100K does not seem unreasonable to me.   Do you have a significantly different number?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 18, 2017, 11:50AM
The thing you have to remember:

For Trump's minions, the term 'fake news' doesn't exactly mean 'not true'. It means, 'stuff we don't want to hear.'


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 18, 2017, 12:02PM
I hate to have to keep bringing this up all the time, but this thread is not about me.

Quit talking about me, and keep your weak arguments directed towards the subject matter.

Is that really too hard for liberals?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 18, 2017, 12:14PM
I hate to have to keep bringing this up all the time, but this thread is not about me.

Quit talking about me, and keep your weak arguments directed towards the subject matter.

Is that really too hard for liberals?
Well, I'm  not talking about you.  I'm trying to discuss with you an item you called 'fake news' that appears to have come from the administration of your unbalanced POTUS.  I've offered some pretty compelling evidence it has solid grounding in truth.  A direct quote from Kelly's memo.  All I'm asking you for is some proof the news item is false.  Is that really too hard for you?  That you stand behind the statements you make?

Your arguments so far have not been weak, they have been missing entirely.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Feb 18, 2017, 12:22PM
The thing you have to remember:
 
For Trump's minions, the term 'fake news' doesn't exactly mean 'not true'. It means, 'stuff we don't want to hear.'

Just to be precise, for them it's actually all about packaging reality with a "Fake News" label so they can pretend it's not utterly depraved and deeply dishonest and cowardly to go with their Alternative Facts™. And I recommend using the term Kellyanne Conway accurately applied--it's all theirs after all. They own it. That's why it made me so happy to hear her actually say that--to see her actually screw up and call it what it in fact is.
 
 --
 
The thing is, Trumpistanians are generally so disinterested in real world accuracy rather than in self-affirmation (remember that reality is extraordinarily stingy with them in that regard) that they need nothing of any more substance than a pointedly misapplied label to actually serve as that affirmation. As non-PC as it may be, the fact of that matter is that honest intellects can't do that anywhere near so easily. We'd better get over our delicate PC sensibilities though, because others' sense of propriety has been their primary source of cover for the last couple of decades that's allowed them to gain an essentially unopposed cultural foothold. I certainly hope the danger of this situation doesn't need to actually be explained at this point. It would have been nice, in fact, if many more had recognized this happening on the order of more than ten years ago and joined in on exposing and denouncing it and ideally heading it off far sooner, but I'm still very happy to see it happening now. It needs to be stressed that it's most unfortunate it had to get this incredibly far in order for that to happen though.
 
We human brain owners are all very good at deceiving ourselves. In fact science and critical thinking are all about neutralizing that inclination--but the large majority of us are at least aware of the fact, and some of us actually take active measures to manage the problem. The more Trumpistanian types tend to really resent it when these completely disparate and profoundly conflicting [i\]modus operandi[/i] are openly laid out and compared. They're completely unfamiliar with that kind of consideration--it goes below the shallowest surface veneer of making any kind of responsible effort at determining what's actually real and true rather than what feels right or just appealing, and they don't fare so well when that happens, so taking this sort of responsibility (taking honesty seriously) isn't just contrary to their inclinations, it's very threatening to them.
 
Trump and his power is all about the mentality that fuels it--the authoritarian followers it's utterly dependent upon. We really need to get a handle on that as a society. We're doing very poorly in that regard, even still, but at least it seems enough are finally realizing what's going on in this regard, at least more or less, and we're all getting a dramatic demonstration of how dangerous it can be, so at least it's not pretty completely under the public radar any more, and I don't think it's going back there any time soon. It's certainly pretty amazing and disheartening what's it's taken to get here though.
 
 --
 
Try to remember though, that getting an authoritarian type to realize the err of his or her mentality is pretty much futile--there's no point in trying to engage them. You can't reach a depraved mind with appeals to the merits of honesty and integrity and responsibility and such. What is useful is exposing the authoritarian mentality for what it is and for the danger it can represent if it's given the platform to find a foothold where it can fester and spread, like fungus rotting out a wooden structure.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 18, 2017, 01:10PM
I hate to have to keep bringing this up all the time, but this thread is not about me.

However, if you ridicule people for their gullibility because they're too smart to agree with you, you're going to get some blowback. Quit being so fragile.

Quote
Quit talking about me, and keep your weak arguments directed towards the subject matter.

Speaking only for myself, my arguments are not weak--I support them thoroughly with specific examples. Your problem is that you can't support your own assertions with even a single example. You have a right to be wrong most of the time, and other people have a right to point it out. Get over yourself. If you can't bear to be disagreed with, quit posting or try to get smarter.

Quote
Is that really too hard for liberals?

I wouldn't know, because I'm not a liberal. I'm just not a dope, so we don't always see eye-to-eye.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on Feb 18, 2017, 02:15PM

Trumpistanians


I prefer Trumpanzees.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 18, 2017, 03:05PM
Guys, until DD presents something more substantiated or cited you really should just decline to respond.

You're arguing with an echo set to turn everything inside-out.

It's just one person, and he'll never admit to being persuaded anyway.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Feb 18, 2017, 03:05PM
We chimps are not amused.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 18, 2017, 03:50PM
Guys, until DD presents something more substantiated or cited you really should just decline to respond.

You're arguing with an echo set to turn everything inside-out.

It's just one person, and he'll never admit to being persuaded anyway.


There you go, making it about me again.



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Feb 18, 2017, 04:35PM
Guys, until DD presents something more substantiated or cited you really should just decline to respond.
 
You're arguing with an echo set to turn everything inside-out.
 
It's just one person, and he'll never admit to being persuaded anyway.

It would be nice if humans could manage to only give attention where it's warranted, but something in our psychology compels most of us to bark at the shiny or slimy or squirmy or whatever kind of twisted, bizarre, and absurd that catches our attention. It seems most are absolutely unable to look a few meters ahead when something shiny is somewhere in our field of view. That's got a lot to do with why the raving and raging slower apes are so lavished with attention, and thus end up with a voice on a larger scale than the smarter, less histrionic apes. Unfortunately it only takes one selectively vapid, post fact Trumpistanian type to keep all the other silly monkeys jumping up and down and screeching, as if one ranting and raving drone were worthy of such intense attentions.
 
Basically I'm saying it's a wonderful idea ... ain't hapnin'.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 18, 2017, 04:43PM
Guys, until DD presents something more substantiated or cited you really should just decline to respond.

You're arguing with an echo set to turn everything inside-out.

It's just one person, and he'll never admit to being persuaded anyway.

Done.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 18, 2017, 05:07PM
One thing to remember about the 'media': regardless of what the left and right both seem to believe, it's not monolithic.

It's Mother Jones and the National Review. It's four separate broadcast networks and at least three news networks, and countless well-edited news sites connected with them. It's the wire services. It's the New York Times and also the Wall St. Journal, and daily newspapers of record in most medium and large cities, some of them leaning toward each of the major parties.

So when Trump talks about the 'Fake News Media' and claims the media is the 'enemy of the American people', it's a dangerous thing. He's talking not about one organization but a whole bunch of private sector businesses that are exercising their constitutional rights. His complaint with them is not that they're corrupt or dishonest, but that they're free to criticize him when he's wrong.

Trump's getting bad press for at least four reasons:

1) He deserves it. He constantly lies to the people he works for (that's us!) and gives no sign of having any aptitude for or interest in leading the country competently. What he sees as relentlessly negative coverage is simply accurate coverage of a relentlessly calamitous administration.

2) He doesn't cooperate with the press, so they need to find information on their own. Remember, media types are a lot like the rest of us--they're constantly on deadline, constantly a little behind, and just trying to put out some product. If they can get that a bit lazily through 'access jounalism' and sell papers, they're going to do it. (Remember, they're businesses, not a branch of government.) Denied that, they have to do their jobs better and do investigative journalism. Previous presidents didn't meet with the press because they loved doing it, or because they always like the result, or because they liked the journalists; they met with them to partly control the narrative and to keep journalists from becoming restive and poking around. In the short run, this might suit Trump--as long as there are ****** who buy his 'fake news' narrative, he can play off of that. The problem is that he can't expand beyond his base that way.

3) Many journalists genuinely don't like Trump. The reason is obvious--Trump polls poorly, on average, among intelligent people and is more popular among the uneducated. People who can string a decent sentence together are simply too smart to fall for him. We can see that on this forum, just as an example. The fact that he constantly trashes them can't help.

4) His poor management skills create a lot of problems for people in his administration, which leads to leaks. Some people think Trump is a brilliant businessman, but I've never believed it. His successes have come from self-promotion, self-branding, and his TV career. He has a long history of running businesses into the ground when he's actually had to manage them. He's used to a very simple business that allows a shallow hierarchy and management structure, and you can't run the country that way. He's also repeatedly trashed the intelligence community (that's not from media reports--that's from his tweets, straight to the people), and they're in a position to leak all over him, which by some accounts he actually might enjoy.

So, yeah, he gets rotten coverage, but it's mostly accurate coverage of an already rotten presidency.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: cmillar on Feb 18, 2017, 05:07PM
Trump behaves like a he has advanced syphilus.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 18, 2017, 05:09PM
Trump behaves like a he has advanced syphilus.


He once compared his attempts to avoid STDs as a single man to "his personal Viet Nam".


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Feb 18, 2017, 06:32PM
So when Trump talks about the 'Fake News Media' and claims the media is the 'enemy of the American people', it's a dangerous thing.

Rather, it would be a dangerous thing if he had any credibility with rational people, but he doesn't. He succeeds in creating the absurd illusion of credibility only with those are both highly capable at selective vapidity, and who are nasty enough to find his message appealing--The Deplorables. There are a lot of them, granted, but they chose a major loser here, and he's managing to sink their ship in freakin' dry dock.
 
Now we need to pay attention to what we've just seen. It should be a true wake up call (I hate that term because it's so overused, and generally in a very presumptuous/pompous way, but it actually applies here and I think obviously so), and it seems to be working that way ... hard to tell regarding the quality of our grass roots response, but I think it looks promising (https://www.statnews.com/2017/02/17/science-fights-alternative-facts/). The allegedly 20-25 percent of the country who are authoritarian are currently almost allowed, both by the media and the uncritical public, to stand in as if they were the monolithic entirety of conservatism. As we see on a regular and consistent basis in here though, conservatives also include many on the extreme opposite end of the rational spectrum, such as PM. The clash between PM and the Post Fact Right isn't as much over politics as it is intellectual integrity and honesty and responsibility.
 
We need the PMs and the other actual adults on the right to be the voice we hear and listen to, not the selective vapidity specialists who don't appear to understand honesty or integrity or any of that beyond the fact they're positive labels they like to use for their side. Obviously we can work together for the better of everyone with the PMs, but the histrionic right would rather refuse to compromise on even trivial points rather than actually govern. The fact they've been winning the culture war, or at least making consistent strides over the last two or three decades, has a whole lot to do with why our government is so dysfunctional and our society so rigidly and devotedly divided.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 18, 2017, 07:37PM
The real danger of Trump is the same as the danger of McCarthy and of the Tea Party: the rational right, and the rational members of the GOP, are afraid of him. They can't alienate his supporters because they'll be accused of subverting the 'movement' and face rebellion in the primaries. The least intelligent voters in America--the ones naive and stupid enough to fall for his 'fake news' trope--are now controlling the party and, for a minute or two, the nation.

The two things that were supposed to happen that could have been constructive: Trump was supposed to stand up to the GOP establishment, and they were supposed to stand up to him. So they should be reining in his worst ideas (like the wall and Muslim ban) and he should be fulfilling his anti-establishment promises to stand up for Medicare and Social Security, and against pharmaceutical companies and Wall St.

In the last days of the election, I posted here that if Trump won he'd be my president and that I'd be rooting for him to succeed. And I meant it. I can easily picture an entirely different outcome after his election, but unfortunately none of it has come to fruition. Instead of becoming more reasonable with responsibility, he is buckling under it and falling apart.

With the GOP's spine melting away, and Trump's as well, his most effective critics are in the various companies that comprise the media, which is why he despises them. That's what scares me--he's trying to discredit facts and neutralize what little control over him is left.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on Feb 18, 2017, 08:08PM

One thing to remember about the 'media': regardless of what the left and right both seem to believe, it's not monolithic.


Well,...............90+% of it IS owned by Time-Warner/ Disney/ Murdoch/ Bertelsmann/ and Viacom. Where do we go to find real, unfiltered information? It's not an idle question. (But, it is a rhetorical question)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 18, 2017, 08:23PM
Basically I'm saying it's a wonderful idea ... ain't hapnin'.
Well, I think I'm finally convinced.  I've had the feeling of late of bashing my head against a wall, and it's not been fulfilling.

Getting back to (un)reality, do we have any bets on when Frump will get so dislodged he scuttles himself?  I'm willing to bet $5 (CDN) that it will be in less than 4 years.  Any takers (only those that can actually argue their points need apply)?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 18, 2017, 08:30PM
The real question is will he leave in a strait jacket, a box, or handcuffs? :evil:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 18, 2017, 08:32PM
Byron,

Some day, in a better, Trump free world, you and I may possibly sit down an enjoy a social drink together and discuss trombones, politics and the absurd.  If that ever happens, I'm hoping you can explain to me how selective vapidity is a capability worthy of high degree.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 18, 2017, 08:33PM
The real question is will he leave in a strait jacket, a box, or handcuffs? :evil:
Another $1 on handcuffs.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Posaunus on Feb 18, 2017, 08:57PM
He once compared his attempts to avoid STDs as a single man to "his personal Viet Nam".

Even for a Trumpophobe like me, this seemed to be an over-the-top malicious rumor - until I found numerous references to a 1993 Trump interview with Howard Stern where he actually used these words!   

[The context:
     '...in 1993, Trump bragged about his promiscuous lifestyle while single and stated
     that men who didn’t go to Vietnam didn’t need to feel guilty because dating during
     the AIDS epidemic in the ’80s was also dangerous.

     “You know, if you’re young, and in this era, and if you have any guilt about not
     having gone to Vietnam, we have our own Vietnam — it’s called the dating game,”
     Trump said to Stern in a 1993 interview. “Dating is like being in Vietnam.
     You’re the equivalent of a soldier going over to Vietnam.” ' ]

That's our Donald - now, 24 years later, a right-to-life abortion foe and darling of the Christian right! 

Wonder what will happen when, eventually and inevitably, he is put under oath and asked to testify on a variety of topics where (as is the case for any good attorney) the interviewer already knows the answers and has evidence to prove them? 


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: bhcordova on Feb 18, 2017, 09:20PM
Will never happen.  What most of you and all of his supporters don't realize is that democracy in the U.S. is over.  This was the last election.  We will be ruled by presidential edict.  If the courts disagree, as they have done, he will get around to disbanding the courts.  If Congress won't tow the line, he will dissolve Congress. 


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Feb 18, 2017, 09:29PM
Some day, in a better, Trump free world, you and I may possibly sit down an enjoy a social drink together and discuss trombones, politics and the absurd.  If that ever happens, I'm hoping you can explain to me how selective vapidity is a capability worthy of high degree.

Heh ... degree = measure, and in this context capacity. So I gather I was talking about a high measure or a high capacity for selective vapidity.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on Feb 19, 2017, 07:02AM
Will never happen.  What most of you and all of his supporters don't realize is that democracy in the U.S. is over.  This was the last election.  We will be ruled by presidential edict.  If the courts disagree, as they have done, he will get around to disbanding the courts.  If Congress won't tow the line, he will dissolve Congress. 

I could actually see that... if he was competent or seemed to have a strategy/plan. This just seems like the chaotic throws of a man who's ego is not only central, but built of the self-delusion of his own grandeur. And he's now in the most criticized and dejected position in the world.

I have to wonder what the man's stress level is like right now. At his age, I give it a year max before the heart attacks start coming bad...


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 19, 2017, 08:01AM
‘Last Night in Sweden’? Trump’s Remark Baffles a Nation (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/19/world/europe/last-night-in-sweden-trumps-remark-baffles-a-nation.html?_r=0)


Quote
Swedes reacted with confusion, anger and ridicule on Sunday to a vague remark by President Trump that suggested that something terrible had occurred in their country.

During a campaign-style rally on Saturday in Florida, Mr. Trump issued a sharp if discursive attack on refugee policies in Europe, ticking off a list of places that have been hit by terrorists.

“You look at what’s happening,” he told his supporters. “We’ve got to keep our country safe. You look at what’s happening in Germany, you look at what’s happening last night in Sweden. Sweden, who would believe this?”

Not the Swedes...



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Feb 19, 2017, 08:23AM
Just to put a reality check on the skeptics ...
 
There are reports that dozens of young Swedes ... dozens ... were out last night well after their parents' curfews!
 
It's pure chaos over there! I'm sure the State Department will be issuing travel advisories warning against Americans visiting there any moment now. The youth of Sweden are just going nuts! Initial rumors suggest the drinking of alcohol may have even been involved.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 19, 2017, 08:35AM
“You look at what’s happening,” he told his supporters. “We’ve got to keep our country safe. You look at what’s happening in Germany, you look at what’s happening last night in Sweden. Sweden, who would believe this?”

Well Trump said it.  It must be real news, just with alternate facts.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Feb 19, 2017, 10:01AM
From the CBC:

"RCMP help asylum-seeking family through snow after run-in with U.S. border patrol

8 people, including 4 children, barely made it across the border in an effort to claim refugee status.

Eight asylum-seekers, including four children, barely made it across the Canadian border on Friday as a U.S. border patrol officer tried to stop them and a Reuters photographer captured the scene."


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Feb 19, 2017, 10:18AM
From the CBC:
 
"RCMP help asylum-seeking family through snow after run-in with U.S. border patrol
 
8 people, including 4 children, barely made it across the border in an effort to claim refugee status.
 
Eight asylum-seekers, including four children, barely made it across the Canadian border on Friday as a U.S. border patrol officer tried to stop them and a Reuters photographer captured the scene."

So you're saying maybe someone abbreviated Saskatchewan Swn in a report to the president's office and Trump thought it meant Sweden ... ?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 19, 2017, 10:50AM
Will never happen.  What most of you and all of his supporters don't realize is that democracy in the U.S. is over.  This was the last election.  We will be ruled by presidential edict.  If the courts disagree, as they have done, he will get around to disbanding the courts.  If Congress won't tow the line, he will dissolve Congress. 

I hope you're wrong. I'm disappointed that Congress has fallen into line behind Trump, but they do show signs of life at his worst statements and excesses, although more mildly than you'd hope. It would take only a few brave GOP senators to tell McConnell, "Stand up to this guy or you don't have my vote!" to stiffen his spine a little. The fact that they've made a little noise already gives me hopes that they'll react more strongly when he goes further off the rails. McCain seems to be doing that already.

What's needed is for all the people showing up at these protest rallies to show up at the midterms instead.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 19, 2017, 10:54AM
Well, you can't say there isn't a lot of fake news.

The Bowling Green Massacre, the record crowds at the inauguration, the 3-5 million illegal votes, the Atlanta terror attack, this week's incident in Sweden, Trump's 'landslide' electoral victory, "Flynn didn't discuss sanctions", etc.

You can't believe anything you read in the liberal MSM anymore.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Feb 19, 2017, 11:22AM

So you're saying maybe someone abbreviated Saskatchewan Swn in a report to the president's office and Trump thought it meant Sweden ... ?

Close enough. North. Cold. Socialist.

Maybe not quite so blonde.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 19, 2017, 11:30AM
This is just as phony as can be. They're trying to make it pass the smell test, and it can't be done.

Quote
On Sunday's "Meet The Press," he said the White House's legal department immediately went into a review of the situation after the warning from the Department of Justice, and later concluded that Flynn didn't break any laws. "But then we started thinking about whether or not Michael Flynn was being straight with us. And that's when we started asking a lot of questions and sort of deposing Michael Flynn and figuring out what he knew or what he didn't know," Priebus said.

"He maintained the fact that he never talked to the Russian ambassador about sanctions. But still, something wasn't adding up. And eventually, we determined that he did, in fact, talk about the sanctions, even though we didn't believe that it was illegal." Eventually, he said, the president asked for Flynn's resignation over an issue of trust.
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/priebus-denies-fbi-spoke-with-anyone-else-in-white-house/ar-AAn6RLB?oc

Here's the thing: I've been in the situation of dealing with integrity issues as an employer. It's not pleasant, and it's a bit like pulling off a Band-aid--the faster you do it, the less it hurts. In this situation, the president has been warned that because of Flynn's public dishonesty, Flynn could be a security risk. The natural problem is that you don't want to make Flynn aware of the investigation while it's underway but you don't want him hanging around forever in case he lied. The normal response would be to quickly assign someone to determine the legalities involved (apparently, no illegalities were alleged), and confront Flynn as quickly as possible. But that obviously didn't happen--by the administration's own account, Flynn enjoyed the full confidence of the president right up until the day before he resigned, and was included in high-level national security meetings. That would not be the normal way to deal with a security risk.

Does it take weeks to 'sort of depose' Flynn? Of course not. Armed with the information from the transcripts, it takes one interview, where you point out that he's still lying to you.

This whole idea that Trump found out that he was lied to, and then a few weeks later it started to stick in his craw a little, completely beggars belief. The obvious thing that happened is that Trump tried to cover it up (including from his own cabinet), then threw Flynn under the bus when it was reported in WashPo. It's plain from the timing that the precipitating event of Flynn's departure was not the Justice Dept.'s disclosure that Flynn lied, but the press's disclosure of it.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 19, 2017, 11:55AM
Apropos of my comment about the GOP tepidly standing up to Trump. This is a bit better than BHC predicted:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/graham-trump-must-punish-russia-election-interference-095114777--p

What's the world coming to when it takes political courage for a Republican to stand up to Russia? When I was a kid that was practically all they did.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 19, 2017, 04:38PM
This is all very inside-Washington stuff so I have trouble gauging the smoke/fire proportions of it. 

None-the-less...

A Big Shoe Just Dropped (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/a-big-shoe-just-dropped) (How many feet does this thing have?)

Quote
...After the lawyers got involved, Trump said he barely knew who Sater was. But there is voluminous evidence that Sater, a Russian emigrant, was key to channeling Russian capital to Trump for years. Sater is also a multiple felon and at least a one-time FBI informant. Bayrock Capital, where he worked was located in Trump Tower and he himself worked as a special advisor to Trump. Again, read the Times article to get a flavor of his ties to Trump, the Trump SoHo project and Russia. For my money there's no better place to start to understand the Trump/Russia issue.


Quote
...As we've all tried to make sense of this very murky meta-story of just what's up with Donald Trump and Russia, there's always been the complicated and messy business ties then and the suppliant, fawning attitude and relationship with Putin now. Are they connected? I have yet to see anything more tightly tying them together than Sater's reappearance in the story.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 19, 2017, 04:56PM
Regarding 'what happened in Sweden', here is one story:

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/443073/rape-violence-sweden-immigration-refugees-ami-horowitz-video?utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=andersen&utm_medium=social&utm_content=sweden-violence


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Feb 19, 2017, 05:04PM
 ... never mind.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 19, 2017, 05:16PM
Regarding 'what happened in Sweden', here is one story:

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/443073/rape-violence-sweden-immigration-refugees-ami-horowitz-video?utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=andersen&utm_medium=social&utm_content=sweden-violence

The full NY Times article notes numerous distortions and falsehoods in the Ami Horowitz accusations.

Quote
...Mr. Selin completed a study recently focusing on negative news reports about Sweden’s acceptance of refugees. It found numerous exaggerations and distortions, including false reports that Shariah law was predominant in parts of the country and that some immigrant-heavy neighborhoods were considered “no-go zones” by the police.

Breitbart News, the right-wing website once led by Stephen K. Bannon, now Mr. Trump’s senior strategist, has published numerous stories alleging that migrants have been responsible for a surge in crime and for a wave of sexual assaults. Swedish officials have said that their statistics do not justify such sweeping assertions, and that the country has a high number of sexual assault reports relative to other European countries because more victims come forward, not because there is more violence.

Mr. Selin said the news reports “were highly exaggerated and not based in facts,” adding, “Some of the stories were very popular to spread in social media by people who have the same kind of agenda — that countries should not receive so many refugees.”

As for the cover-up alleged by Mr. Horowitz, Mr. Selin said: “That kind of claim has been in the political debate for 15 years now. But nobody has been able to prove there is a cover-up. On the contrary, the fact is that crime rates are going down.”


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Posaunus on Feb 19, 2017, 05:31PM
Regarding 'what happened in Sweden', here is one story:

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/443073/rape-violence-sweden-immigration-refugees-ami-horowitz-video?utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=andersen&utm_medium=social&utm_content=sweden-violence

There's Dusty's easily rebutted version, and then there's his friend Donald's totally fabricated "news stories." 

Quote
Reuters - February 19, 2017

President Donald Trump told thousands of supporters at a rally on Saturday that Sweden was having serious problems with immigrants.

"You look at what's happening last night in Sweden," Trump said. "Sweden. Who would believe this? Sweden. They took in large numbers. They're having problems like they never thought possible."

No incident occurred in Sweden and the country's baffled government asked the U.S. State Department to explain what Trump meant.

"My statement as to what's happening in Sweden was in reference to a story that was broadcast on @FoxNews concerning immigrants & Sweden," Trump said in a tweet on Sunday.

Sweden's crime rate has fallen since 2005, official statistics show, even as the country has taken in hundreds of thousands of immigrants from war-torn countries like Syria and Iraq.

Trump's comment confounded Sweden's government. "We are trying to get clarity," Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Catarina Axelsson said.

Trump has been widely criticized for making assertions with little supporting evidence.

In recent months, he has argued that more than 3 million people voted fraudulently in the U.S. election, an assertion that election officials say is false, and incorrectly stated that he won the election by the most decisive margin in decades.

Swedish Foreign Minister Margot Wallstrom appeared to respond to Trump's statement about her country on Saturday by posting on Twitter an excerpt of a recent speech in which she said democracy and diplomacy "require us to respect science, facts and the media."

Her predecessor was less circumspect.

"Sweden? Terror attack? What has he been smoking? Questions abound," former Swedish Foreign Minister Carl Bildt wrote on Twitter.

Which do you believe? 

Whose news is "fake?" 


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: bhcordova on Feb 19, 2017, 05:52PM
It's all fake.  None of it is true. At least, that's what the current administration and his Alt-Right handlers would have you believe.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 19, 2017, 07:37PM



The American Experiment in Exile (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/the-american-experiment-in-exile)

Quote
As the storied and long-serving retired US diplomat Nicholas Burns put it in a tweet, America's erstwhile European allies are now worried about America as a threat to the international order...

...While it has received relatively little attention in the US press, the White House has been pursuing an open policy of destabilizing the European Union and using the United Kingdom's exit from the EU to pry the EU apart with a series of bilateral trade agreements with the US. Whether this is feasible is another question; this is the intent. Why the White House - specifically President Trump and Steve Bannon - would want to do this is an important question. The fact that this aim lines up perfectly with Russian foreign policy goals speaks for itself.

But it can equally plausibly be explained by the desire to destroy internationalist, liberal and largely cosmopolitan institutions to pave the way for a new global order based on competing blood and soil nationalisms. The US government is now in the hands of a faction or party the rise of which much of our statecraft has spent almost seventy years trying to prevent from coming to power in the states of Europe.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 19, 2017, 08:19PM
There's plenty of fake news.

In the MSM, it's usually when they quote Trump or part of his administration.

In the Trombone Forum, it's when DDickerson posts.

By the way, DD, when you were caught plagiarizing that article, you implied that I had done the same thing a few days earlier.

Did you find the post yet?

You're welcome to lie as much as you want, but don't you dare lie about me.


Title: Show me the post
Post by: Piano man on Feb 19, 2017, 08:26PM
I really wasn't pretending, just too lazy to put it into quotes, but interesting you mention it, since you did the same thing a few days ago. I didn't change any of the words, because I'm not a good writer.

In case you forgot the post, there it is. Show me the post where I plagiarized something without attribution.

You might wonder why I'm so sure you won't find the post that you're claiming exists. It's simple: I'm not a liar (that must seem novel to you!)  As my dad used to say, if you tell the truth you don't have to remember what you said.

You know, your lie about me has every hallmark of a Trump lie. You didn't really gain anything from telling it, but you wanted to say something back, just for effect, and you didn't care even a tiny bit if it was true.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 19, 2017, 10:33PM
More about Trump's financial friend...


Learning Eye-Popping Details About Mr Sater (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/learning-eye-popping-details-about-mr-sater)

Quote
First, let's review a bit about Felix Sater. Sater was born in the Soviet Union in 1966 and emigrated to the US with his parents at the age of 8. He is an American citizen. He dropped out of college and began a stock broker. But in his late 20s he got into bar fight where he stabbed a fellow broker in the face with a shattered glass. He did time in prison for this attack. After he got out he got involved in a major securities fraud scheme (basically a 'pump and dump' operation) tied to the Genovese and Colombo crime families. He got caught. And that's where things get interesting...

yada-yada-yada...

Quote
...So far it's your typical Trump story of small investors screwed out of their money and winding up in court. But this time there was a key difference. Someone leaked documents to the plaintiffs detailing Sater's criminal record and his conviction for securities fraud. The investors argued, quite reasonably, that they never would have invested in Trump Tower Fort Lauderdale if they had known that the key executive organizing the project had been convicted of cheating investors out of $40 million. The federal government had prevented them from learning this information by keeping the securities fraud case secret. This sparked a highly complex and dramatic legal case in which the federal government used all the full force of its need to protect national security in defense of keeping Sater's crimes secret.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 20, 2017, 12:56AM
If you're an idiot, you probably think that trade war is so obvious (Make America Great Again! Get A Better Deat!) that only the venality of the political establishment in both parties has prevented us from joining it.

Since you're not an idiot (in most cases) you might enjoy this article that shows in a short space the complexities of trade, the danger of unintended consequences, and the fact that you should actually have to be smart to be president.

http://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/commentary/2017/02/16/first-casualties-trumps-trade-wars-texas-cattle-ranchers

No necessity of a spoiler alert if I give you the last 'graph first.

Quote
The irony, of course, is that states like Texas, the plains states and Michigan all helped put Trump in office. But the cows in pasture don't care about politics. And cowboys rightly don't care about irony, even if they are to be its first casualties.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 20, 2017, 06:34AM
Quoting from that National Review article:

"At the end of the video, Horowitz speaks with Swedish citizens on the street, asking them if they think the uptick in rape and violence is in any way related to the influx of Muslim refugees. They seem to find the idea offensive, saying that there is no relationship between the two and that to say otherwise would be racist.

It ends with one woman saying there should be no limit to how many immigrants Sweden takes in."


Apparently the Swedes don't agree that anything is wrong. :dontknow:



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Feb 20, 2017, 07:03AM
Clearly evidence that socialism is for the softheaded.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 20, 2017, 07:11AM
It's no surprise that Swedes don't see anything wrong with illegal Muslim immigration, heck, look at all the liberals here in our country that don't see the problem. LOL!

Still, according to one article, 77% of rapes in Sweden are committed by Muslims.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 20, 2017, 07:12AM
Quoting from that National Review article:

"At the end of the video, Horowitz speaks with Swedish citizens on the street, asking them if they think the uptick in rape and violence is in any way related to the influx of Muslim refugees. They seem to find the idea offensive, saying that there is no relationship between the two and that to say otherwise would be racist.

It ends with one woman saying there should be no limit to how many immigrants Sweden takes in."


Apparently the Swedes don't agree that anything is wrong. :dontknow:

I noticed the same thing. In neither the article nor the video was there any empirical evidence that immigrants are committing large numbers of crimes, other than the filmmaker asserting it. The woman and the two police officers he interviews seem to agree with him, but you don't really know anything about them or how they came to be interviewed. If, as he says, most of the people he interviewed disagreed with him, it's not particularly persuasive that he simply gave more face time to the people who shared his opinion.

In any event, even buying the premise of the film wouldn't support Trump's statement that there had been a specific incident on the previous night--it's just more of his BS.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 20, 2017, 07:13AM
Still, according to one article, 77% of rapes in Sweden are committed by Muslims.

Well, then! "According to one article", and that is according to a known plagiarist and liar! That's all the evidence I need! It's plain why you believe so many things that are untrue.

Did you ever find that post I plagiarized?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 20, 2017, 07:32AM
Still, according to one article, 77% of rapes in Sweden are committed by Muslims.

Are you talking about this: https://muslimstatistics.wordpress.com/2015/03/19/sweden-77-6-percent-of-all-rapes-in-the-country-committed-by-muslim-males-making-up-2-percent-of-population/ (https://muslimstatistics.wordpress.com/2015/03/19/sweden-77-6-percent-of-all-rapes-in-the-country-committed-by-muslim-males-making-up-2-percent-of-population/)

And the fact that this is posted on a well know anti-Muslim hate propaganda site gives you no pause to consider it might just possibly be hogwash?

One of the proud positions they take on that site is: "We are unable to respond to emails asking for references."  In other words they are admitting outright it is just hogwash.

Personally I will not ever read anything again from that site, not even for entertainment purposes.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 20, 2017, 07:46AM
Are you talking about this: https://muslimstatistics.wordpress.com/2015/03/19/sweden-77-6-percent-of-all-rapes-in-the-country-committed-by-muslim-males-making-up-2-percent-of-population/ (https://muslimstatistics.wordpress.com/2015/03/19/sweden-77-6-percent-of-all-rapes-in-the-country-committed-by-muslim-males-making-up-2-percent-of-population/)

And the fact that this is posted on a well know anti-Muslim hate propaganda site gives you no pause to consider it might just possibly be hogwash?

One of the proud positions they take on that site is: "We are unable to respond to emails asking for references."  In other words they are admitting outright it is just hogwash.

Personally I will not ever read anything again from that site, not even for entertainment purposes.

This is from a guy who says everyone else here should be more skeptical of our sources. LOL!

For all I know, it may be true that Muslims commit more rapes in Sweden. The reason I don't know, one way or another, is that I haven't seen reliable statistics. The first footnote in the article was to a study that was over twenty years old, and was in Swedish.

What's telling is DDickerson's habit of simply tossing out quotes (when he bothers to attribute them rather than claim them as his own) as though the quotation marks themselves are authoritative. He expects his attribution--"according to one article"--to be persuasive, because it would be persuasive to him, provided that the opinion expressed is amenable.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: bhcordova on Feb 20, 2017, 07:56AM
Ok, guys.  Knock it off.  Discuss the articles, not Dusty. 


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 20, 2017, 10:33AM
About that Ari Horowitz and FOX Swedish muslim crime rate story...

Swedish Police Featured In Film Shown By Fox News Say They Were Selectively Edited (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/sweden-fox-news-trump-police_us_58ab095ee4b037d17d29be2b?c6nz7gf1ur8s38fr&)

Quote
But the two officers told the Swedish daily newspaper Dagens Nyheter that their comments were selectively edited by the filmmaker.

”It was supposed to be about crime in high risk areas. Areas with high crime rates. There wasn’t any focus on migration or immigration,” Anders Göranzon told the paper.

Göranzon said they were “answering completely different questions in the interview. This is bad journalism.”


FOX has an accumulating track record of promoting dishonestly edited video.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 20, 2017, 10:38AM
FOX has an accumulating track record of promoting dishonestly edited video.

Controversy = ratings.  Soup it up!  People will read it/watch it with their jaws dropped.  Fox has never been one to pander to accuracy or facts.  Others do that much better than them, so they go for manufactured punch!!!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Posaunus on Feb 20, 2017, 11:11AM
Still, according to one article, 77% of rapes in Sweden are committed by Muslims.

Perhaps this should be immediately reported to the Swedish police, whose shoddy records about rape apparently show nothing of the sort. 

Thanks to this sort of revelation, and a tough response to it, they could make Sweden safe again! 


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Feb 20, 2017, 11:16AM
I would surprised if there weren't one or more Swedish trombone players on this forum.

I'd love to hear from them on this subject.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 20, 2017, 12:12PM
I would surprised if there weren't one or more Swedish trombone players on this forum.

I'd love to hear from them on this subject.

They, like everybody else in Sweden, are trying to figure out what Trump is talking about! :razz:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on Feb 20, 2017, 01:44PM

They, like everybody else (in Sweden) PRETTY MUCH EVERYWHERE, are trying to figure out what Trump is talking about! :razz:


Then, there's this......

https://bluelivesmatter.blue/officer-peter-springare-sweden-migrant-crime/


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 20, 2017, 02:05PM
Racists come in blue too.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: stampen on Feb 20, 2017, 02:40PM
I live in Sweden. What you are up to in here right now is guesswork at best. If there's anything you're curious about feel free to ask. But don't make us a tool for whipping out more brown shirts.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 20, 2017, 02:56PM
I live in Sweden. What you are up to in here right now is guesswork at best. If there's anything you're curious about feel free to ask. But don't make us a tool for whipping out more brown shirts.
?? :dontknow: ??

Is there another way you'd like to put that?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Feb 20, 2017, 02:59PM
Pretty clear to me.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: bhcordova on Feb 20, 2017, 03:01PM
Brown shirts = Members of the NAZI party.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 20, 2017, 03:05PM
I live in Sweden. What you are up to in here right now is guesswork at best. If there's anything you're curious about feel free to ask. But don't make us a tool for whipping out more brown shirts.

We are commenting about our Esteemed Leader mentioning how much crime the Middle Eastern refugees are committing in Sweden.  We hear from Swedes in our Media (radio, television, print) that this is not the case.  Is that what you see as well?

This is not a reflection on Swedes at all.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: stampen on Feb 20, 2017, 03:13PM
We have only one category of crime that is not statistically on the decline and that is lethal violence. (Street shootings). Those kind of crimes has also been on the decline since the early nineties but took a tic up during 2015. However, if you deduct the killings that were the results of a gang war in my city Gothenburg, that same declining curve would continue. That is, the only increasing confirmed crimes are attributed to that gang conflict which all started over a girl about five years ago but has now spiralled into including retaliation and drugs.

That is not to say we don't have our problems. All countries do. But what the POTUS says is just not correct.

/A


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Feb 20, 2017, 03:33PM
And, of course, with Julian Assange confined to the Trafalmadorian Embassy in London ...


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Feb 20, 2017, 03:43PM
I think it is safe to assume that Muslim gangs are not a trend....in Sweden or anywhere.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: stampen on Feb 20, 2017, 03:51PM
I think it is safe to assume that Muslim gangs are not a trend....in Sweden or anywhere.

Just to be clear. The gangs I was refering to are not muslim gangs. Just plain ol criminals of various kinds.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: stampen on Feb 20, 2017, 03:52PM
And, of course, with JuliannAssange confined to the Trafalmadorian Embassy in London ...

Yeah...that one is straaaaange.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Feb 20, 2017, 03:54PM
Just to be clear. The gangs I was refering to are not muslim gangs. Just plain ol criminals of various kinds.

 :good:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 20, 2017, 03:59PM
Brown shirts = Members of the NAZI party.
Ahhh...  That clears it up.  Had no idea what a brown shirt was.  I thought it may have been a police force or security detail, or ...?  Either wold have has a very different meaning than Nazi party.

Thx .. never too old to learn something new.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 20, 2017, 04:13PM
Then, there's this......

https://bluelivesmatter.blue/officer-peter-springare-sweden-migrant-crime/

I'm wondering about the details of this...

Quote
"Here we go; this I’ve handled Monday-Friday this week: rape, rape, robbery, aggravated assault, rape-assault and rape, extortion, blackmail, off of, assault, violence against police, threats to police, drug crime, drugs, crime, felony, attempted murder, Rape again, extortion again and ill-treatment."

This seems to be an enumeration of individual incidents (and what really are "felony" or "off of" or "crime"?)... this is 16 calls in one week. Is that a lot?  Would a US city policeman have only three calls a day? Or only three report-worthy calls per day?

With no burglaries, no auto thefts (Sweden is supposed to be huge for auto theft), no suicides (I was always told in school that Swedish socialism was causing them to all commit suicide suicide).

Maybe it's lost in translation.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Feb 20, 2017, 05:43PM
Ok, guys.  Knock it off.  Discuss the articles, not Dusty.

Or authoritarians I guess ... ?
 
There are many, many examples (psychologists and sociologists working on this estimate them at 20% to 25% of the US population). No need to fixate on one. In fact it would be far more productive, I would argue (kind of as in not counterproductive), to look into the authoritarians schtick, and not to fixate/lavish attention on one particular example.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Feb 20, 2017, 05:50PM
I would surprised if there weren't one or more Swedish trombone players on this forum.
 
I'd love to hear from them on this subject.

I'm sure they've all gone underground to avoid getting caught up in the wave of terror flowing over Scandinavia as of Friday night.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 20, 2017, 05:57PM
It must be really tough for Dusty.  He speaks a certain shorthand that a lot of Right Wingers speak and it's impossible for him to get through to the rest of us who don't understand him.  We probably need a translator who can convert Rush Limbaugh into terms we can understand.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: growlerbox on Feb 20, 2017, 07:30PM
Ahhh...  That clears it up.  Had no idea what a brown shirt was.  I thought it may have been a police force or security detail, or ...?  Either wold have has a very different meaning than Nazi party.

Thx .. never too old to learn something new.

Yeah, or those UPS guys.  They always look like they're up to no good.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Feb 20, 2017, 07:36PM
Yeah, or those UPS guys.  They always look like they're up to no good.

Maybe it's the brown shorts, but I don't find the UPS guys all that intimidating.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: stampen on Feb 20, 2017, 10:52PM

I'm sure they've all gone underground to avoid getting caught up in the wave of terror flowing over Scandinavia as of Friday night.

 :D :good:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 20, 2017, 11:53PM
Maybe Bowling Green is in Sweden.

We haven't heard much from the President about Russia buzzing US ships with war planes, or North Korea's missile launch, or Russia's new cruise missile tested in defiance of their treaty obligations with the US. You'd think that would be worthy of at least a tweet.

Somehow, his administration can still make time for public statements on at least three non-existent terror attacks, but nothing yet on the real threats facing our nation.

It's not as though Trump is unwilling to speak up. If Saturday Night Live were our greatest threat, Trump would be a great president.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 21, 2017, 05:33AM
Maybe it's the brown shorts, but I don't find the UPS guys all that intimidating.
At least not until you see all their 'handling, brokerage and forwarding' fees that they pass on to the recipient.  Many times those fees outweigh the original cost to the shipper.

If UPS is the only way I can get something that is not essential, and by essential I mean that someone would die without it, I'll do without.  Same goes for FedEx.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on Feb 21, 2017, 06:41AM
Wish I knew how to post the actual photo.....

https://scontent.ftpa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16864304_10210267669660449_5149324368728656384_n.jpg?oh=d06eac6120715c77f7c0bcea533b1049&oe=5948C059



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 21, 2017, 06:57AM
Wish I knew how to post the actual photo.....



Code:

[img]image url goes here[/img]


But not in a code box.

(https://scontent.ftpa1-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16864304_10210267669660449_5149324368728656384_n.jpg?oh=d06eac6120715c77f7c0bcea533b1049&oe=5948C059)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on Feb 21, 2017, 07:02AM
Anyone else find it odd that as someone who routinely rails against the 4th estate fr being inaccurate or false, and who has access to information like no one else... he declines to get the information briefings and instead relies on that false and inaccurate 4th estate?

The failing NYTimes is so bad... so bad. It's just terrible folks. I read it all the time.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 21, 2017, 07:31AM
I noticed that on the new Nat Sec announcement Trump made a point to claim he had done some study on this.

Quote
“I watched and read a lot over the last two days. He is highly respected by everyone in the military, and we’re very honored to have him.”


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 21, 2017, 07:55AM
I noticed that on the new Nat Sec announcement Trump made a point to claim he had done some study on this.

With Trump just because one sentence follows another does not imply they have anything whatsoever to do with each other.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Feb 21, 2017, 10:11AM
Now riots in Stockholm.

Trump right or reckless?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 21, 2017, 12:52PM
Now riots in Stockholm.

Trump right or reckless?

Does it have to be one or the other?

The primary risk of terrorism in this country comes primarily from people living here who become radicalized. Trump's drumbeat of anti-Muslim rhetoric increases the likelihood of that happening and makes us less safe, not more.

The 9/11 attacks were perpetrated by foreigners, but they were from Saudi Arabia, which is not on Trump's list, and crossed the Canadian border. He's banning the wrong countries, and building the wall in the wrong place.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on Feb 21, 2017, 12:55PM
Does it have to be one or the other?

The primary risk of terrorism in this country comes primarily from people living here who become radicalized. Trump's drumbeat of anti-Muslim rhetoric increases the likelihood of that happening and makes us less safe, not more.

The 9/11 attacks were perpetrated by foreigners, but they were from Saudi Arabia, which is not on Trump's list, and crossed the Canadian border. He's banning the wrong countries, and building the wall in the wrong place.

The primary risk of terrorism in this country comes from Christian Right-wing White Supremacists.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 21, 2017, 12:58PM
The primary risk of terrorism in this country comes from Christian Right-wing White Supremacists.

Well, I said 'people living here who become radicalized.' There is certainly more than one version.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 21, 2017, 01:22PM
The primary risk of terrorism in this country comes from Christian Right-wing White Supremacists.

That is a pathetic lie!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 21, 2017, 01:33PM
Dusty, have you seen some of these guys in Montana and Idaho?  Making armed camps to resist the Government taking away their guns?  Anti-Muslim, Anti-Jew, and even anti-Mexican.

We're not talking about guys like you, are we?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: stampen on Feb 21, 2017, 02:00PM
Now riots in Stockholm.

Trump right or reckless?

The Riots were in the Stockholm suburb Rinkeby. Rinkeby has been a troubled suburb for as long as I can remember with an unemployment rate of over 50%. The problems there is nothing new and therefore have nothing to do with the immigration peak of 2015. The police went there to pick up a known criminal and were attacked by other criminals (stone throwing) to a degree that they had to use their firearms. Nobody was hit. When they left the scene (very questioned in swedish media today) gangs set fire to several cars, some stores were broken in to, and people were assaulted. The police force are highly self critical today as reinfrocments were to slow to arrive in the scene, among other things.

The habit of setting cars on fire spread here after the London summer riots of 2011. Nothing like that used to occur previously.

That police officers have to use their firearms in Sweden is very rare and that such an event made the top headlines on all the newspapers today might tell you a bit about what normal life looks like here.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: bhcordova on Feb 21, 2017, 02:36PM
Does it have to be one or the other?

The primary risk of terrorism in this country comes primarily from people living here who become radicalized. Trump's drumbeat of anti-Muslim rhetoric increases the likelihood of that happening and makes us less safe, not more.

The 9/11 attacks were perpetrated by foreigners, but they were from Saudi Arabia, which is not on Trump's list, and crossed the Canadian border. He's banning the wrong countries, and building the wall in the wrong place.

But he does business in Saudi Arabia, and besides most Canadians speak English and are not brown.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Feb 21, 2017, 02:36PM
That is a pathetic lie!

Tim McVeigh


And no, the 9/11 hijackers did not come from Canada. All were legally in the US prior to September 11. Some were on student visas, attending flying school. They assembled in Maine, flew to Boston, and hijacked the planes there. No Canadian involvement whatsoever. Can't offload the blame on us.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Feb 21, 2017, 02:45PM
The primary risk of terrorism in this country comes from Christian Right-wing White Supremacists.

Probably 50/50. Christian Right-wing and radicalized American Muslims.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 21, 2017, 02:57PM
Probably 50/50. Christian Right-wing and radicalized American Muslims.

50/50?


Christian? I don't see Christian churches teaching terrorism. Lie. Bigly.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: gregs70 on Feb 21, 2017, 03:25PM
Tim McVeigh


And no, the 9/11 hijackers did not come from Canada. All were legally in the US prior to September 11. Some were on student visas, attending flying school. They assembled in Maine, flew to Boston, and hijacked the planes there. No Canadian involvement whatsoever. Can't offload the blame on us.

Dylan Kebold.  Ted Kaczynski.  Timothy McVeigh.  Columbine.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Feb 21, 2017, 03:53PM
Frank Roque, Wade Michael Page.

And this:

WASHINGTON — President Trump spoke out Tuesday against a series of bomb threats against Jewish community centers across the nation after coming under fire for sidestepping earlier opportunities to condemn several waves of anti-Semitic acts since he took office last month.

and the Westboro bunch.



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Feb 21, 2017, 05:30PM
Wait for it ...


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 21, 2017, 07:35PM
Note to Dusty: an attack on one Christian is not an attack on all Christians.  We won't paint Christians with the same brush you use for Muslims (which is quit inappropriate).


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 21, 2017, 08:19PM
That is a pathetic lie!

No, sir, it's just someone who disagrees with you.

Here's an archival FBI site discussing the subject.
https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/news/testimony/the-terrorist-threat-confronting-the-united-states

Quote
During the past decade we have witnessed dramatic changes in the nature of the terrorist threat. In the 1990s, right-wing extremism overtook left-wing terrorism as the most dangerous domestic terrorist threat to the country.

I will point out that the quote compares the threat from right-wing domestic terrorism to that of left-wing domestic terrorism. It doesn't compare it directly to international terrorism.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 21, 2017, 08:25PM
And no, the 9/11 hijackers did not come from Canada. All were legally in the US prior to September 11. Some were on student visas, attending flying school. They assembled in Maine, flew to Boston, and hijacked the planes there. No Canadian involvement whatsoever. Can't offload the blame on us.

Ellrod, I'm not blaming Canada (even though that would make a great song). Either way, you're right, and I'm wrong. Even though a lot of high-level officials (including Napolitano and McCain) claimed that the hijackers entered through Canada, it appears to be untrue. I'm almost sure the Mexican wall wouldn't have slowed them down much, though.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 22, 2017, 05:43AM
I'm almost sure the Mexican wall wouldn't have slowed them down much, though.

It won't slow down the Mexicans either.  By far the majority of Mexicans entering the US (and Canada BTW) are invited in as workers.  The vegetable and fruit growers of California, as a single example, cannot find Americans to do the work for the wages they can pay.  So, as long as you still expect to be able to buy tomatoes for $0.40/lb at Wallmart, they will send boats to bring them in.

The alternative is you will either pay $3/lb for your tomatoes or be happy to go work on the farms for $3/hr.  You're choice.

I doubt Frump and his band of ignoramuses have given this whole thing any real thought.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 22, 2017, 05:50AM
Christian? I don't see Christian churches teaching terrorism. Lie. Bigly.
Do you see Muslim churches teaching terrorism?

"This weeks Sunday school lesson: IED's for dummies Preregistration and permission of the Imam required."



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 22, 2017, 06:03AM
Do you see Muslim churches teaching terrorism?



Of course, Mosques are used for Jihad training.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 22, 2017, 06:10AM
Of course, Mosques are used for Jihad training.
Just so your educated, a Jihad is not a terrorist act or a holy war.  Terrorist use the term, but they use it incorrectly.

"Jihad is an Arabic word from the root Jee Ha Da. It literally means to struggle or strive. Jihad is struggling or striving in the way or sake of Allah. Jihad takes a very important status in the doctrine of Islam and is one of the basic duties for every Muslim."

Having gotten that out of the way ... So, you know of a Mosque in the US teaching terrorism?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 22, 2017, 06:32AM
Just so your educated, a Jihad is not a terrorist act or a holy war.  Terrorist use the term, but they use it incorrectly.


In current use, jihad means acts of war against infidels. When they use it, we know what it means.

Thanks for the education.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on Feb 22, 2017, 06:41AM
Of course, Mosques are used for Jihad training.
If that's your view, we know who the real terrorist is. Hint: it isn't muslims.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 22, 2017, 06:44AM
In current use, jihad means acts of war against infidels.
  No, it does not.  That is your use, not theirs.  Mosques do not teach terrorism.

Thanks for the education.
It didn't take.  What else is new... :rolleyes:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Feb 22, 2017, 08:51AM
Bad logic:


Terrorists build bombs.

Terrorists attend mosques.

Mosques support bomb building.


Where's BVB? He's the expert.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Bimmerman on Feb 22, 2017, 09:47AM
In current use, jihad means acts of war against infidels. When they use it, we know what it means.

Thanks for the education.

Have you met any devout Muslims, and had a conversation with them about their faith? Not an argument into how your interpretation of their faith is correct, but an intellectual conversation about how they themselves interpret their faith? The muslims I know despise what the fanatics have done to their faith and how they've twisted its teachings and words to suit their agenda, and are generally happy to discuss how wrongly both sides of the media portray them.

Also, "christians" bombing and shooting up abortion clinics (or churches or mosques) is terrorism just as "muslims" bombing and shooting up buildings is. The faith of the perpetrator is not what defines terrorism.

Fact is, the devout Muslims I know are far more tolerant, accepting, and open to alternative viewpoints than the devout Christians I know.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: mwpfoot on Feb 22, 2017, 09:51AM
Here's a devout Muslim immigrant living on government assistance for all to consider.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-foster-father-sick-children-2017-story.html

 :idea:



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Feb 22, 2017, 10:00AM
Have you met any devout Muslims, and had a conversation with them about their faith? Not an argument into how your interpretation of their faith is correct, but an intellectual conversation about how they themselves interpret their faith? The muslims I know despise what the fanatics have done to their faith and how they've twisted its teachings and words to suit their agenda, and are generally happy to discuss how wrongly both sides of the media portray them.

Also, "christians" bombing and shooting up abortion clinics (or churches or mosques) is terrorism just as "muslims" bombing and shooting up buildings is. The faith of the perpetrator is not what defines terrorism.

Fact is, the devout Muslims I know are far more tolerant, accepting, and open to alternative viewpoints than the devout Christians I know.

Thank you. That was very well stated.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 22, 2017, 10:51AM
I think we can fairly say that most American mosques and most American churches don't promote, encourage, or teach terrorism.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 22, 2017, 11:01AM
I think we can fairly say that most American mosques and most American churches don't promote, encourage, or teach terrorism.

Or synagogues, or Hindu Temples, or Buddhist Temples...


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 22, 2017, 11:08AM
Here's a devout Muslim immigrant living on government assistance for all to consider.

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-foster-father-sick-children-2017-story.html

 :idea:

I'm not religious, but I'm starting to think that a Muslim who devotes his life to caring for terminally ill children is almost as moral as a Christian who spouts anti-Muslim comments on a music forum.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 22, 2017, 11:18AM
Donald Trump issued another clarification of his Sweden remarks:

He says that when he said, "You look at what’s happening last night in Sweden”, he meant to say "You look at what's happening in Sweden later this week."

 :)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Feb 22, 2017, 03:23PM
I'm not religious, but I'm starting to think that a Muslim who devotes his life to caring for terminally ill children is almost as moral as a Christian who spouts anti-Muslim comments on a music forum.

'almost'

You are being generous  :rolleyes:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 22, 2017, 04:04PM

Former Aides Explain How They Shielded Trump From Twitter Destruction (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-twitter_us_58ade36be4b03d80af71bdef?96lkhzc1h6fbyy14i&)


Quote
A steady diet of praise kept tantrums at bay.
Quote
The key to keeping Trump’s Twitter habit under control, according to six former campaign officials, is to ensure that his personal media consumption includes a steady stream of praise. And when no such praise was to be found, staff would turn to friendly outlets to drum some up — and make sure it made its way to Trump’s desk.

Quote
Aided immeasurably by the fact that Trump never reads anything online and literally only consumes media that is printed and put in front of him, staffers would engineer “good news” stories with a universe of friendly media outlets.

So, for instance: When Trump was regularly fighting with Khizr Khan, the father of a slain Iraq War soldier who made a huge splash at the Democratic National Convention, his staff would set up a meeting with other Gold Star families, get friendly media outlets to run the stories, and then show Trump those stories so that he didn’t feel so sad and angry. They’d also get “media amplifiers” to tweet about these stories so the staffers could print out tweets to show Trump, to calm him down.

A Potemkin (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Potemkin) internet had to be printed out to keep him from embarrassing himself.







Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Feb 22, 2017, 04:31PM
It is clear that Trump is a simple minded yet dangerous man


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: elmsandr on Feb 22, 2017, 05:30PM
Of course, Mosques are used for Jihad training.
I used to think you were well meaning but just disagreed with me on some issues.

Now the TOU prohibit me from saying what I really think.  May god have mercy on your soul.

Cheers,
Andy


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Feb 22, 2017, 05:40PM
Have you met any devout Muslims, and had a conversation with them about their faith? ......

I won't answer for DD, but I think it a safe bet that he has never spoken to a Muslim. And he probably has no interest in doing so.

Because if he did interact with anyone of the faith, his ignorant and divisive opinions might be proven wrong. It is easier to stay the course.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: bhcordova on Feb 22, 2017, 05:48PM
You are conveniently forgetting the New York Iman who was responsible for the original World Trade Center bombing.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 22, 2017, 06:06PM
You are conveniently forgetting the New York Iman who was responsible for the original World Trade Center bombing.

He died within the last couple of days.

I would hesitate to say that his Mosque was typical.

There are ISIS Madrasas in the Middle East and a few odd ones elsewhere in the world, but to say they are typical of Muslims is to say the Skinheads are typical of Christians.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 22, 2017, 06:34PM
You are conveniently forgetting the New York Iman who was responsible for the original World Trade Center bombing.
Not forgotten, but I'd be willing to bet $1US that he did not learn to do this from his Mosque, nor would his Mosque support his actions.

The word terrorist is bandied about quite a bit these days.  It's beginning to lose it's meaning, and it gets applied to one-off nutcases way too often.  To me there is a distinct difference between terrorism and mental disease.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 22, 2017, 06:45PM
He died within the last couple of days.

I would hesitate to say that his Mosque was typical.

There are ISIS Madrasas in the Middle East and a few odd ones elsewhere in the world, but to say they are typical of Muslims is to say the Skinheads are typical of Christians.
One of the distinctions is that fundamentalist Islamic terrorist groups, precisely for the reason they are fundamentalist Islamics, tend to take over religious leadership in their controlled territories.  Skinheads and other modern day Christian whackos don't tend to take over the churches.  Although that had been tried by the KKK, they just don't have it together enough.

You have to go back to the Spanish Inquisition for the last time Christian fundamentalists reigned terror on Muslims through the Christian church.  Make no mistake about it, that was a fundamentalist terrorist movement of the worst kind.  The Frump "Get 'em out!!!" kind.

But nearer to home (the US) was the Salem witch hunts.  The target of that fundamentalist Christian terrorism was not Muslims, but just about everybody that had the audacity to 'Think different'.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 22, 2017, 06:50PM
Well, you do have Reverend Phelps and his gay-bashing congregation demonstrating at military funerals.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 22, 2017, 07:02PM
Well, you do have Reverend Phelps and his gay-bashing congregation demonstrating at military funerals.
Ahhh, Phelps.  Yeah Phelps kind of gives me the feeling he had a male lover in college and now has traumatic emotional issues dealing with his own past.  He's certainly a nutcase, but he does have a small following.  Hardly terrorist though.  Just maladjusted rednecks that can't deal with the way their reality is misaligned with their upbringing.

"Now children, remember to start your day with your minds tightly closed!"


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 22, 2017, 07:13PM
...

"Now children, remember to start your day with your minds tightly closed!"

That's almost exactly what the Taliban and ISIS Madrasas say (but in Arabic).

Think this is where we will go with Trump?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 22, 2017, 07:27PM
That's almost exactly what the Taliban and ISIS Madrasas say (but in Arabic).
Yup, the far (whatever wing you want to insert) tend to like their blinders.

Think this is where we will go with Trump?
I certainly hope he's gone before any real damage can occur ... although we're getting a little late to hold that hope.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 22, 2017, 09:27PM
I won't answer for DD, but I think it a safe bet that he has never spoken to a Muslim.

Latest news from your area:
http://www.dallasnews.com/news/arlington/2017/02/22/arlington-preschool-teacher-fired-kill-jews-tweet-anti-semitic-posts

Great school teacher!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Feb 22, 2017, 09:47PM
Do you really want to go down that path? You cite one crack pot Muslim American, and use it in an attempt to prop up and justify your irrational hatred of an entire faith.

I can almost guarantee you that I can find more instances of hateful right wingers posting threats against Muslims and other minorities (such as LBGT folks, Mexican, and yes Jews) than Muslim Americans threatening anyone

I really wonder if they ever taught the Beatitudes or the Sermon on the Mount in your church of choice.

There is none of that in your energy and attitudes towards people different than you.

And as usual, you throw a stink bomb into a discussion and promptly leave the premises.  :rolleyes:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Posaunus on Feb 22, 2017, 10:30PM

Great school teacher!


So are we to extrapolate from a few obvious nut-cases to an entire group of people who identify with a particular religion? 

Do you think that Ms Salem and the "other University of Texas at Arlington students" who seem so full of antipathy toward Jews and Israel learned their hatred at a mosque?  (I guess it's possible.  But if so, I wouldn't be surprised if the FBI is already keeping on eye on them.) 

I suppose I could be a victim of the "lying media" - but my understanding from the news that I consume is that those primarily responsible for the recent waves of anti-semitic (and anti-immigrant and anti-latino and ...) hateful behavior and violence have not been Muslims but instead have been from the same groups of people who are responsible for the election of our new President (who, during his election campaign, essentially empowered these folks to act out on their basest paranoias, phobias, fears, and hatreds).  Perhaps Dusty has statistics that will prove me wrong? 


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Feb 23, 2017, 12:29AM
Dusty, since you broached the subject of hate crime statistics, here is one from your area

http://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/Muslim-group-calls-for-hate-crime-investigation-10690643.php


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on Feb 23, 2017, 05:38AM
also...

http://www.salon.com/2015/12/30/amid_escalating_anti_muslim_violence_suspect_arrested_for_allegedly_setting_houston_mosque_on_fire_on_christmas/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/irving-texas-armed-mosque-protest_us_5651eddfe4b0d4093a581d14

http://blog.chron.com/narcoconfidential/2015/11/muslim-group-questions-sentence-for-man-who-targeted-mosque-for-machine-gun-attack/

Curious... doesn't seem like ANY christian churches were attacked...



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 23, 2017, 07:21AM
Latest news from your area:
http://www.dallasnews.com/news/arlington/2017/02/22/arlington-preschool-teacher-fired-kill-jews-tweet-anti-semitic-posts

Great school teacher!
It seems the reporting on that issue is a little suspect.  Is the Dallas News a respected paper?

The reason I ask is that the headline accuses Ms Salem of anti-Semitic behavior.  Since she is actually of Palestinian or Arab decent, then she is a Semite herself.

To me it just smacks of an over sensationalized headline that uses a handy and over-used catch phrase rather than dealing with the truth or the entire issue, and is just generally shoddy reporting.  She is anti-Jew.  Unfortunately a lot of Palestinians are anti-Jew.  However, that said, there are also a lot of Israeli Jews that are anti-Palestinian.  It kind of goes with the territory there.  Does one call them anti-Semitic?

In any case, that sort of thing needs to be left in Israel where it was created, rather than be brought to another country.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 23, 2017, 07:35AM
It seems the reporting on that issue is a little suspect.  Is the Dallas News a respected paper?

I live in Dallas. The Dallas (Morning) News is not a pillar like the NYT or Washington Post but it is a generally mainstream, respected big city paper and has been around for a long time. It has an opinion page but the news reporting is generally non-political.

Although "semites" includes more than Jews, I think 99% of English speakers say and use "anti-semitic" when speaking of a Jewish issue.



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 23, 2017, 08:42AM
Although "semites" includes more than Jews, I think 99% of English speakers say and use "anti-semitic" when speaking of a Jewish issue.

You might be correct in that is what is happening.  Semantic creep is the result and allows for this sort of sensationalism.  Gets more folks riled up if you say anti-Semitic than it does if you say anti-Jew.  No matter how incorrect that is.  One could love Arabs and hate Jews (like Ms Salem) - one is not anti-Semitic, one is anti-Jew.

The same thing goes for calling the mentally ill terrorists.  Or calling Jihad a terrorist act.  Kind of bothers me.

We see it all the time in this particular thread.  It allows certain individuals drop stink bombs, as one poster put, and leave.  They don't have to explain because all sorts of folks just like them use the same incorrect terminology and build a 'reality' of falsehoods.

As one other poster noted, he believed it is normal to use the word Jihad to mean 'terrorist act'.  This is a mistake.  Here is why.  One can use that error along with the information that they do (in real fact) teach Jihad in Mosques, coming to the logical conclusion that they teach terrorism in Mosques.  So, now you have possibly millions of folks that believe this, all because of the semantic creep of the word Jihad.

Just sayin'.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Feb 23, 2017, 09:18AM
One could almost come to the conclusion that DD tacitly approves of attacks on Muslims since he never calls out the right wing terrorists.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 23, 2017, 09:39AM
Latest news from your area:
http://www.dallasnews.com/news/arlington/2017/02/22/arlington-preschool-teacher-fired-kill-jews-tweet-anti-semitic-posts

Great school teacher!


No, a bad one. What's your point?

Anti-Semitism is on the rise. And I do mean anti-Jewish rhetoric and behavior.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 23, 2017, 10:40AM
One could almost come to the conclusion that DD tacitly approves of attacks on Muslims since he never calls out the right wing terrorists.

Do you think it's appropriate to talk about forum members?




Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on Feb 23, 2017, 11:10AM
Speaking of terrorist attacks...

http://www.kansascity.com/news/local/crime/article134459444.html

Quote
At least one witness reportedly heard the suspect yell “get out of my country” shortly before shooting men he thought were Middle Eastern. Both men, engineers at Garmin, appear to be originally from India.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 23, 2017, 11:13AM
One of the easy ways to spot subtle (and not-so-subtle) bigotry is the extremely selective way bigots cast light on events.

Right now, there's a sort of epidemic of anti-Semitism and other religious bigotry, most of it apparently emanating from so-called 'Christian Identity' or 'White Identity" groups. There are attacks on mosques and threats to synagogues.

Anyone is welcome to form his own opinion as to why the particular case would especially interest a particular person. In other words, why would an anti-Semitic tweet count more than a burned mosque or desecration of a cemetery or a phoned-in bomb threat?

My own interpretation is that 'you guys' went through all the news of the day and said, Looky here! A Muslim person did this one! Unfortunately, you guys don't need to do that much sorting, because your news is curated by on-line algorithms and you guys' choice of news sources, and have the bigotry built right in.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 24, 2017, 06:45AM
The BBC takes a long, hard look at sex crimes in Sweden...

Reality Check: Is Malmo the 'rape capital' of Europe? (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-39056786)

Quote
The claim: Many young male migrants arrived in Sweden over the past few years, when the country accepted unprecedented numbers of refugees, and there has been a huge rise in sexual crime in Sweden especially in the southern port city of Malmo.

Reality Check verdict: Malmo, along with other urban centres in Sweden, has one of the highest levels of reported rapes in proportion to population in the EU, mainly due to the strictness of Swedish laws and how rape is recorded in the country.

The rate of reported rapes in Malmo has not dramatically risen in recent years and has in fact declined from its peak in 2010, before the recent large increases in refugees.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Feb 24, 2017, 07:11AM
Do you think it's appropriate to talk about forum members?




Come on. You insult liberals and democrats on here nearly non stop. I was not insulting. It is just the way I perceive your dialogue.

I for one am tired of your hate and vitriol.

You want respect? Show some.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 24, 2017, 07:31AM
Come on. You insult liberals and democrats on here nearly non stop. I was not insulting. It is just the way I perceive your dialogue.

I for one am tired of your hate and vitriol.

You want respect? Show some.


The liberals spit out more hate and vitriol than I could ever conceive. I direct no hate towards anyone.

Leftist liberals describe hate and vitriol for anyone that speaks with a different view. No tolerance what so ever for different opinions.




Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 24, 2017, 07:35AM
Man, talk about projection.

Coming off 8 years of incessant Obama bashing...


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: stampen on Feb 24, 2017, 07:39AM
The Beeb got it right, and almost all of it. Well done Brits!!

/A

The BBC takes a long, hard look at sex crimes in Sweden...

Reality Check: Is Malmo the 'rape capital' of Europe? (http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-39056786)

Quote
The claim: Many young male migrants arrived in Sweden over the past few years, when the country accepted unprecedented numbers of refugees, and there has been a huge rise in sexual crime in Sweden especially in the southern port city of Malmo.

Reality Check verdict: Malmo, along with other urban centres in Sweden, has one of the highest levels of reported rapes in proportion to population in the EU, mainly due to the strictness of Swedish laws and how rape is recorded in the country.

The rate of reported rapes in Malmo has not dramatically risen in recent years and has in fact declined from its peak in 2010, before the recent large increases in refugees.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Feb 24, 2017, 07:46AM
Man, talk about projection.

Coming off 8 years of incessant Obama bashing...
:good:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 24, 2017, 08:02AM
Man, talk about projection.

Coming off 8 years of incessant Obama bashing...
A conveniently bad memory helps some folks.  Especially those that can never explain why they believe what they believe or find in themselves any means to back up their beliefs.  Sort of a 'true faith' thing.

People that are used to having dogma thrust down their throats never learn to question things.  One need not know the reasoning behind a thing, just knowing the thing is enough.  Their ability to reason atrophies completely over time.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 24, 2017, 08:09AM
Man, talk about projection.

Coming off 8 years of incessant Obama bashing...

Coming off of NOT bashing people on this forum even though they believe in a different ideology than I do, even though I have been personally bashed on this forum because I believe in a different ideology. Tell the whole story, not just part of the story.



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 24, 2017, 09:34AM
I don't think it's a difference of political ideology that draws fire; I share some of you guys' political ideology.

It's the tendency to assert things with no evidence and believe them for no real reason, and the apparent religious bigotry. I view bigotry as a character flaw, not an ideology.

I've noticed on my facebook feed that the people who endlessly ridiculed Obama and his supporters have suddenly had a change of heart and believe it's time for everyone to unite behind our president and quit criticizing him. Talk about hypocrisy.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on Feb 24, 2017, 09:40AM
I've noticed on my facebook feed that the people who endlessly ridiculed Obama and his supporters have suddenly had a change of heart and believe it's time for everyone to unite behind our president and quit criticizing him. Talk about hypocrisy.

I would note... there were still confederate flags at CPAC this year... speaking of "get over it".

Just after Obama's election he said “Elections have consequences, and at the end of the day, I won.” to which the GOP really really did not take it kindly. Ironic how now the tables are turned, they think that it's a calm and legitimate respond and those objecting have no place. Yay for double standards...


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 24, 2017, 09:46AM
I would note... there were still confederate flags at CPAC this year... speaking of "get over it".

Confederate flags are so yesterday.  The in thing now for white patriots is Russian flags...

CPAC Crowd Waves Russian Flags for Trump (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/crowd-waves-russian-flags-for-trump)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C5cLYEIWcAEhlQC.jpg)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Feb 24, 2017, 09:56AM
and crazier.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Feb 24, 2017, 12:01PM
I don't think it's a difference of political ideology that draws fire; I share some of you guys' political ideology.
 
It's the tendency to assert things with no evidence and believe them for no real reason, and the apparent religious bigotry. I view bigotry as a character flaw, not an ideology.
 
I've noticed on my facebook feed that the people who endlessly ridiculed Obama and his supporters have suddenly had a change of heart and believe it's time for everyone to unite behind our president and quit criticizing him. Talk about hypocrisy.

In their defense, many or maybe most of them really, truly don't know any better, as amazing as that may seem to those of us with at least some degree of self-awareness and accuracy in our self-image and our understanding of others ... well, and just ... reality.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 24, 2017, 12:20PM
The in thing now for white patriots is Russian flags...


For the REAL story:

Shady Left-Wing Operative Kicked Out Of CPAC For Handing Out Russian Flags


http://dailycaller.com/2017/02/24/shady-left-wing-operative-kicked-out-of-cpac-for-handing-out-russian-flags/#ixzz4ZdUR7pbG


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 24, 2017, 12:49PM
For the REAL story:

Shady Left-Wing Operative Kicked Out Of CPAC For Handing Out Russian Flags


http://dailycaller.com/2017/02/24/shady-left-wing-operative-kicked-out-of-cpac-for-handing-out-russian-flags/#ixzz4ZdUR7pbG

Looks like those conservatives were easily fooled.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 24, 2017, 01:35PM
Looks like those conservatives were easily fooled.

Yes, the red white blue flags with Trump in big letters emblazoned on the flags fooled a lot of people. Really, it was a smart dirty trick to play.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 24, 2017, 02:10PM
Looks like those conservatives were easily fooled.
I'd bet 97.3% of those indoctrinated rightie fools wouldn't know a Russian flag from a good book.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Doghouse Dan on Feb 24, 2017, 02:41PM
I'd bet 97.3% of those indoctrinated rightie fools wouldn't know a Russian flag from good book.

I'm a really smart liberal and I wouldn't have known.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Feb 24, 2017, 05:28PM
Looks like those conservatives were easily fooled.

Dogmatists are very gullible as a group--you only have to know some of their lingo and dog whistle phrases. Tickle their ears and affirm their views, validate their darker, uglier faults and recite a few of their bumper stickers, and the fools can't but assume you're one of the best people in the world, just like them. Do those things and throw in a heavy dose of fear targeting your opposition, no matter if that opposition is obviously working to help them while you're obviously exploiting them, and you have the Republican Base--or this last election, add some crack to the equation and you get Trump supporters, a particularly foolish variety of fool. Poster children for the Dunning-Kruger Effect.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 24, 2017, 05:59PM
I'm a really smart liberal and I wouldn't have known.


You and I remember the red flag with the hammer and sickle.  That ended in 1991.

There are a number of flags with horizontal red, white, and blue stripes.  If you were to put a coat of arms on the "Trump flag", it's the flag of Slovenia, Melania's homeland.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 24, 2017, 08:53PM
I'm a really smart liberal and I wouldn't have known.

I'm not really smart, and not really a liberal - more a moderate - but I knew.

Should I be somehow ashamed of that?  It seems these days that it's cool not to know things.  Ignorance is king!!!  Those that have taken the time to absorb some knowledge are just shunned as nerds, or some such.  I've had to, more and more, keep my tongue reined in in social gatherings so as not to sound too 'smart'.  What the heck?!!?!  I find that drooling helps me fit in.  So does knowing sports scores.

Yeah, that's actually what makes this f'd up world go around - a bunch a juice monkeys throwing, kicking, or hitting balls.  Hey, at least it's a step up from actual monkeys throwing their stool - but not a big step.  It's amazing what this planetary populace holds sacred.  A dude that tosses a ball into a net gets paid 10 times what the guy working on a cure for cancer gets paid, and 100 times what a guy developing a new model of the universe gets paid, and a 1000 times what a guy that plays trombone gets paid.  Sorry, that might have been too long a sentence for you cool guys.

And we ask ourselves "How the f**k did Trump get elected?"  Because in the addled and vapid minds of enough 'sports fans' in the US, he's da man!!!

Okay then, I'm a nerd.  I'll own that.  It's far better than the alternative - being ignorant.

BTW, it was covered on and episode of Sheldon's Fun With Flags.  You must have missed it.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 24, 2017, 09:49PM
Well, I guess the joke backfired on the leftists that pulled it off. Another dirty trick by the leftists, trying to create fake news.



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 24, 2017, 09:59PM
Well, I guess the joke backfired on the leftists that pulled it off. Another dirty trick by the leftists, trying to create fake news.
Either 'they' pulled it off, which the record shows actually happened as people at the event were actually waving Russian flags for the world to see, or it backfired and failed.  Which is it?

Also, according to your reference, it was one person, well known as a prankster, that pulled it off.  He was evicted from the event.  Do you really think he actually wanted to stick around to listen to your soul mate?  LOL.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 24, 2017, 10:01PM
Well, they could have tried to put depilatory on his orange mop... :razz:

Why wouldn't they want a red, white, and blue flag that says "TRUMP" on it?

The Democrats got too clever by half...


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 24, 2017, 10:06PM
Why wouldn't they want a red, white, and blue flag that says "TRUMP" on it?
  Yeah, really?  Old Glory used to be called 'the red, white and blue'.

Or was it just Toby Keith?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 24, 2017, 10:33PM
  Yeah, really?  Old Glory used to be called 'the red, white and blue'.

Or was it just Toby Keith?

Lots of flags are red, white, and blue.  Incidentally, it used to be illegal to use the flag as an article of clothing or for casual decorations.  For that we have red, white, and blue bunting.

Watch it, or we'll put TRUMP in white letters inside a red maple leaf :razz: :evil:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: uncle duke on Feb 25, 2017, 02:57AM
And we ask ourselves "How the f**k did Trump get elected?" 

Two words -  Crooked Hillary. 

  If you hear these words four or five times a week for 2 1/2 months leading up to the election they do make you do some thinking.  I am Republican but haven't voted for a Republican Presidential candidate since G. Bush's first term....

  I believe no matter the party the best man should get the job.  Did I cast a vote for my party when it was Clinton or Obama's turn for office.  No I did not simply because my Republican party did not present a candidate worthy for me to call "the better man".  This time I saw things differently and I'm glad Trump and my vote won........quite a few people see it the same as me.   

<Edit: Fixed Quote>


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on Feb 25, 2017, 03:55AM
And we ask ourselves "How the f**k did Trump get elected?" 

Two words -  Crooked Hillary. 

This time I saw things differently and I'm glad Trump and my vote won........quite a few people see it the same as me.   

The Irony is that in a few short months, between trump campaign officials actively talking with the russians, russians hacking to help trump get elected, his transition team talking with the russians, staying fully involved in his businesses and so on... there is far more perspective scandal with trump now than everything ever thrown against hillary.

The email thing where she was investigated for year for using her own private hardware? Yeah... Trump is actually doing that currently with his private phone.

Benghazi, the attack not known in advance that was investigated for recklessness something like 8-9 times and never found anything? How about an intentionally planned and botched attack that killed innocent civilians and military personnel in trump's first week?

How about the carelessness of conducting national security matters in the open while being recorded and having pictures taken? Or his people using their positions to shill for his family businesses? Or throwing temper tantrums and threatening war against fellow leaders and allies? Used his talks with foreign leaders to advocate for his local businesses there?

And he's ripe with so much more... This is only his first month, after all.

The difference is, "crooked hillary" is actually quite straight laced and the issues against her only stayed because the GOP abused their investigative power to ensure they did. Trump... has some many ethical issues it's hard to keep count!


Also to note, Trump's been so ADD and distracted by vanity that even the GOP controlled congress can't get anything done for fear of him turning against them and sabotaging their efforts, and he has already done per obamacare repeal and tax plans and such. And through it all... he's still a weak leader who spends so much of his time relaxing and golfing that his travel costs in the first month are almost equal to obama's full term.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 25, 2017, 05:19AM
For the REAL story:

Shady Left-Wing Operative Kicked Out Of CPAC For Handing Out Russian Flags


http://dailycaller.com/2017/02/24/shady-left-wing-operative-kicked-out-of-cpac-for-handing-out-russian-flags/#ixzz4ZdUR7pbG

Great prank! You can always tell you're reading an unbiased source when the headline contains the term 'Shady Left-Wing Operative'.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 25, 2017, 05:31AM
Well, I guess the joke backfired on the leftists that pulled it off. Another dirty trick by the leftists, trying to create fake news.

Not sure it backfired. Looks like it worked.

I wouldn't have known what a Russian flag looks like, either, but I'm also not the sort of idiot who waves any old flag someone hands me. Some people just love waving ****, and the prankster knew his marks. If you'd been there, you would have cheerfully and thoughtlessly waved it.

There's no fake news here. It was accurately reported. A bunch of dopes got tricked into waving Russian flags, and a guy came around and took them away. A good way to reflect that a large part of Trump's base now admires Putin, which is certainly true.

The parrots erupt.

FAKE NEWS! SQUAAAAAWWWWKK!




Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: uncle duke on Feb 25, 2017, 05:35AM
Two words -  Crooked Hillary. 

This time I saw things differently and I'm glad Trump and my vote won........quite a few people see it the same as me.   


The Irony is that in a few short months, between trump campaign officials actively talking with the russians, russians hacking to help trump get elected, his transition team talking with the russians, staying fully involved in his businesses and so on... there is far more perspective scandal with trump now than everything ever thrown against hillary.

The email thing where she was investigated for year for using her own private hardware? Yeah... Trump is actually doing that currently with his private phone.

Benghazi, the attack not known in advance that was investigated for recklessness something like 8-9 times and never found anything? How about an intentionally planned and botched attack that killed innocent civilians and military personnel in trump's first week?

How about the carelessness of conducting national security matters in the open while being recorded and having pictures taken? Or his people using their positions to shill for his family businesses? Or throwing temper tantrums and threatening war against fellow leaders and allies? Used his talks with foreign leaders to advocate for his local businesses there?

And he's ripe with so much more... This is only his first month, after all.

The difference is, "crooked hillary" is actually quite straight laced and the issues against her only stayed because the GOP abused their investigative power to ensure they did. Trump... has some many ethical issues it's hard to keep count!


Also to note, Trump's been so ADD and distracted by vanity that even the GOP controlled congress can't get anything done for fear of him turning against them and sabotaging their efforts, and he has already done per obamacare repeal and tax plans and such. And through it all... he's still a weak leader who spends so much of his time relaxing and golfing that his travel costs in the first month are almost equal to obama's full term.


Surely there's more wrong with Hillary than what you post here.  Doesn't matter now - no one remember's the losers.

Long story short , yes President Trump is in what I'd call the feeling out stages.  Who wouldn't be?  Ms. Clinton?

 Rest assured every move Trump's making is being watched.  I see him as only getting better with time and if the Democrats, for example, don't like Trump they'll have to find a candidate better to unseat him a few years from now.

 Put the country first - something I believe Ms. Clinton wouldn't do.  Her winning would be like "look folks, I won".  The new President ran and won fair and square, until proven different, mostly because he thinks he can make this country [U.S.A.] better.         
 


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 25, 2017, 06:15AM
Not sure it backfired. Looks like it worked.

I wouldn't have known what a Russian flag looks like, either, but I'm also not the sort of idiot who waves any old flag someone hands me. Some people just love waving ****, and the prankster knew his marks. If you'd been there, you would have cheerfully and thoughtlessly waved it.

There's no fake news here. It was accurately reported. A bunch of dopes got tricked into waving Russian flags, and a guy came around and took them away. A good way to reflect that a large part of Trump's base now admires Putin, which is certainly true.

The parrots erupt.

FAKE NEWS! SQUAAAAAWWWWKK!




LOL!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on Feb 25, 2017, 07:37AM

  The new President ran and won fair and square, until proven different, mostly because he thinks he can make this country [U.S.A.] better.         
 

He won. THere is plenty of proof out there to make the "fair and square" part highly debateable.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: uncle duke on Feb 25, 2017, 08:09AM
If one can call these faults the following is what I felt wouldn't or wasn't right.

1.  I've already mentioned hearing the words crooked Hillary.  Not hard to forget.
2.  The smashing/destroying of phones/apps/tablets?  Why?  Doesn't matter yet.
3.  Benghazi?  Surely a woman can't be to blame for everything bad there?  I don't know the specifics.  Is/was she someone elses puppet?
4.  Ms. Clinton fainting while being escorted to a vehicle?  Why?
5.  Lords knows what she got into after finding out about President Clinton's affair{s}.  Let the sleeping dog lie is all I'll say about that.  Would you forgive a spouse 100% after the whole world finds out.  Me?  An eye would be open always.
6.  Ms. Clinton defending a rape suspect showing what I understood to be no regard/compassion to the victim/plaintiff.  I hope that wasn't her husband she was defending - I did not fully understand or catch what went on then before the subject was removed from t.v. discussion.  Weather true or not I'll never know but that was the last straw for me.

As for you that are faithful Democrats.  I thought B. Clinton did a fine job while in office.  Same for Barack.  Our Republican nominee's at the time were simply not good enough candidates in my book meaning they would not receive a vote from me but nor would the Democratic party receive a vote from me either.  This time around I saw fit to cast a vote for my party, simple as that.  Trump wins.

<Edit: Fixed strikeout.  Don't use square brackets as a cute way to make (s).  It just makes the rest of your post a strikeout.> 


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 25, 2017, 08:32AM
So you bought into his projection hook, line, and sinker.

Lyin' Ted = I lie like an SOB, so I'll just blame Cruz.
Little Marco = I'm insecure so I call him names.
Crooked Hillary = (guess what).

He's got his staff shilling for Ivanka's business.
He's got his sons running some hotels that are being used for Government business.
He's got the US Gummint spending a fortune to let him stay at Mar-A-Lago when Camp David is already secure and is the normal retreat.

Incidentally he's been through as many wives as Newt Gingrich and has cheated on them all.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 25, 2017, 09:06AM
Two words -  Crooked Hillary. 

Picking Trump over Clinton because of their relative crookedness has to be the most absurd thing I've heard since hearing Trump won.  I guess you were not one of the people that got ripped off by Trump over the years - Like Trump University.  Not to mention the dual debacles of his private and public lives since his win.  Unless, of course, you did it because to wanted a lying, cheating, self absorbed babbling wacko in office.

Compared to Trump, Clinton gets the "Ye may cast the first stone" award.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: uncle duke on Feb 25, 2017, 09:23AM
Hearing crooked Hillary had a lot to do with how I voted.  Like I said 4-5 times a week for 2 1/2 months before polls opened.

Maybe Cruz and Rubio were liars, or one of them was.  I like them both but they should of done a better job of defending their actions when called out.     


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 25, 2017, 09:31AM
Long story short , yes President Trump is in what I'd call the feeling out stages.
Are you sure he's not in the feeling up stage (with Ivanka?)

Who wouldn't be?  Ms. Clinton?

Precisely.  Clinton is a career politician with a previous career in law closely aligned to political matters.  She's been the First Lady at both the state and federal levels, a senator and a Secretary of State.  She has spent a dozen or more years in and around the White House in a multitude of different roles.  She'd have hit the road running - quite possibly better than anyone in history.

AS for Trump.  What a laugh. All he has ever achieved is running business into the ground and depleting his family fortune.  Except of course all the lying, cheating and stealing he's done in his infamous career.  So, let's see what he's done since getting in - ah yes, abused the executive office by signing in one month more executive orders than any president before him ever did in the their first year and bypassing the legislative process.  Gotten into a habit of firing his senior staff before they get a chance to use the washroom key.   Has put in place a public relations staff that can't seem to get on the same page and just can't seem to stop lying and fabrication 'alternate facts'. Oh, and he's given himself tennis elbow from patting himself on the back every time there is camera in front of him.  "Ya know, I won 306 electoral votes .. Well, I’m the best there is. Plain and simple, when I wake up in the morning I p*ss electoral votes"

Does he have a deputy Secretary of State yet?  I believe he's missing more than one key deputy.  No, he's not in any 'feeling out' stage.  He's an idiot.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 25, 2017, 09:41AM
Hearing crooked Hillary had a lot to do with how I voted.  Like I said 4-5 times a week for 2 1/2 months before polls opened.
Ahh.  Gotcha.  So, it was just that you were easily brainwashed by an empty catch phrase.  Sure sounds like the best way to choose the leader of the country. :good:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: uncle duke on Feb 25, 2017, 09:57AM
O.K. maybe President Trump isn't the brightest bulb in the socket but it's not any easier when father time comes a calling. 

   Face it folks, the wrong Democratic person was put up against Trump......and lost.  She ran a good,close race.  What happened though is that she counted her chickens before they hatched, lost and some don't like it.  Have a good day gentlemen.

  What I'm leery about with President Trump is his German ancestry.  There haven't been many in U.S history to win office that were/are German.  He'll be the fifth and I should add the others did fairly well while in office - couldn't find much info. about Tyler.  We'll be watching.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Feb 25, 2017, 10:10AM
So, clearly we have a large segment of the population that simply doesn't understand things like honesty or ethics or evidence or reason, or really responsibility ... etc. They "know" they and theirs are right and that what they and their think and do feels right ... and they're done. They're not the slightest bit curious about the facts or just in general, aside from things that seem to affirm their perceptions and sentiments (to them research would include processes like finding headlines that appear to agree with their sentiments). They have no qualms about imposing these perceptions and sentiments upon everyone. In fact they "know" it would do everyone and our society a great deal of good if they were to do so, because they "know" only evil people disagree with them. We also know that in our society (US) about 20% to 25% of us form the majority, probably (hopefully) the large majority of the described segment.
 
So what's there to work with? How do we deal with this reliable 20% to %25 percent advantage to nastiness and depravity in elections and public policy initiatives?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Feb 25, 2017, 10:20AM
O.K. maybe President Trump isn't the brightest bulb in the socket but it's not any easier when father time comes a calling.
So it was reasonable to elect Trump because we all get senile eventually?
 
Face it folks, the wrong Democratic person was put up against Trump......and lost.  She ran a good,close race.  What happened though is that she counted her chickens before they hatched, lost and some don't like it.  Have a good day gentlemen.
Is any of that at issue? Are you thinking you've told anyone anything new there? Are you trying to argue that because Clinton lost everyone should just agree with Trump and accept his views and policies quietly, regardless? Was that true of the criticism when Obama won? Would it be true now had Clinton won?
 
Have you read any history of the founding of the US and the ideas that were bounced around amongst the founding fathers? Have you read the Constitution and Bill of Rights, and actually considered what they say? Are you even aware of the history of the US and how it came to be? Because what it seems you're saying there is antithetical to all of that stuff.
 
What I'm leery about with President Trump is his German ancestry.
So "have a good day gentlemen" only applies to those who have issues with Trump other than his German heritage?
 
There haven't been many in U.S history to win office that were/are German.  He'll be the fifth and I should add the others did fairly well while in office - couldn't find much info. about Tyler.  We'll be watching.
You're leery about Trump's German ancestry, and there have only been four other US presidents with German heritage, all of whom did fairly well in office.
 
There seems to be something a bit off in all of that ... eh?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 25, 2017, 11:21AM
So, clearly we have a large segment of the population that simply doesn't understand things like honesty or ethics or evidence or reason, or really responsibility ... etc.

I guess that's why so many people are still supporting leftist liberal democrats? :dontknow:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 25, 2017, 11:24AM
I guess that's why so many people are still supporting leftist liberal democrats? :dontknow:

Actually they are against a corrupt and venial guy who was elected.  Even Conservative Republicans are beginning to get concerned.  Trump isn't one of them, either.  If I were you I'd keep an open mind about who's doing what.  We may disagree on where to head, but we may wind up agreeing that the guy we elected isn't going to get us there.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 25, 2017, 11:33AM

   Face it folks, the wrong Democratic person was put up against Trump......and lost.  She ran a good,close race. 


As some have noted before, Hillary was such a weak candidate that she only got three million more votes than the guy who came in second.

The pundits and oepratives who played up Hillary's liabilities for the last four years would not have rolled over and stepped aside for Bernie or Joe Biden.

They would have pursued their real minuses in just as vigorous a fashion and and when they got tired of facty stuff they would have tailored their phoney child-molestation ring rumors to fit whoever was on the Dem ticket.

 










Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 25, 2017, 12:39PM
So, clearly we have a large segment of the population that simply doesn't understand things like honesty or ethics or evidence or reason, or really responsibility ... etc. They "know" they and theirs are right and that what they and their think and do feels right ... and they're done. They're not the slightest bit curious about the facts or just in general, aside from things that seem to affirm their perceptions and sentiments (to them research would include processes like finding headlines that appear to agree with their sentiments). They have no qualms about imposing these perceptions and sentiments upon everyone. In fact they "know" it would do everyone and our society a great deal of good if they were to do so, because they "know" only evil people disagree with them. We also know that in our society (US) about 20% to 25% of us form the majority, probably (hopefully) the large majority of the described segment.
 
So what's there to work with? How do we deal with this reliable 20% to %25 percent advantage to nastiness and depravity in elections and public policy initiatives?
I'm not sure anything can be done.

Maybe have some almighty being arrange a flood wherein all the indoctrinated dogma junkies are swept away and only those that question a thing before they call it knowledge are allowed to go forth and be fruitful in the cleansed land.

Or maybe find some very authoritative evangelistic type to convince them that not eating is the right thing to do for them and the rest of the world.  If the guy was worth his salt, they'd never question him.  They'd just do it.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Feb 25, 2017, 12:51PM
I'm not sure anything can be done.

I'd like to see us try not lavishing them with attention (thus giving them a dramatically bigger voice) for being so proudly irrational and selectively vapid. By giving them all the attention we keep them in the spotlight and they get a radically over-representative stage as a result. If they got the attention they actually earn it would be limited mostly to psychology professionals. It would also be a good thing if at least most of us most of the time were smart enough not to indulge them when they randomly ignore points, change subjects and otherwise find their way around issues and points they're too intellectually cowardly to face honestly or responsibly.
 
But because crowd IQs drop roughly to the highest IQ in the crowd divided by the number of people in the crowd, it seems like a pretty tough order.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Feb 25, 2017, 02:22PM
Well, I guess the joke backfired on the leftists that pulled it off. Another dirty trick by the leftists, trying to create fake news.


Most of  the fake news is coming right out of the White House and trumpeted by Colter and Spicer.

But of course you don't acknowledge that. To do so would mean you have to rethink everything.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 25, 2017, 03:09PM
Most of  the fake news is coming right out of the White House and trumpeted by Colter and Spicer.

But of course you don't acknowledge that. To do so would mean you have to rethink everything.

If that was true, I would rethink it, but the fake news comes from the msm outlets.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Feb 25, 2017, 03:10PM
If that was true, I would rethink it, but the fake news comes from the msm outlets.

Fake post.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 25, 2017, 03:26PM
Fake post.

LOL!


Title: Your unbalanced DOTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 25, 2017, 03:27PM
Trump says he wants to make America great again.

He says he going to do this by closing the borders.

Here is why he's an idiot:  Immigration made America great.  This is the absolute truth of the matter.  Does anyone remember the big lady on Ellis Island?  Someone should show Trump the words written on it - the poem that begins “Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free.”  What made America great was bringing together people from all around the world with different ideas and cultures.  Not building walls and closing borders.  Two of his 3 wives are immigrants.


He says he's going to do this by tearing up trade agreements so that people will buy American.

Here's why he's an idiot:  7 of his 10 cars are imports from Germany, England and Italy.  His daughter runs a business wherein she sells to  the American market Chinese made products.  Two of his wives are imports.


He says he's going to do this by bringing companies back to the US.

Here's why he's n idiot:  Most of the companies that have left to set up operations elsewhere did it for 2 main reasons.  1) because the goods they make need to compete in a global market and they cannot be competitive in world markets paying US wages and taxes.  2) because they cant find Americans to do the jobs, either because they can;t pay enough or the work is disgusting or dangerous.  These are the jobs he' going to try to bring back.  If he does, most of these companies will fail.


He say's he going to do this by ousting illegal immigrants (mostly just Mexicans) so that there will be more jobs for Americans.

Here's why he's an idiot:  I covered this a few posts back.  

Quote
It won't slow down the Mexicans either.  By far the majority of Mexicans entering the US (and Canada BTW) are invited in as workers.  The vegetable and fruit growers of California, as a single example, cannot find Americans to do the work for the wages they can pay.  So, as long as you still expect to be able to buy tomatoes for $0.40/lb at Wallmart, they will send boats to bring them in.

The alternative is you will either pay $3/lb for your tomatoes or be happy to go work on the farms for $3/hr.  You're choice.

Get ready for unaffordable produce and/or a new peasant class in the US.  


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 25, 2017, 03:28PM
If that was true, I would rethink it, but the fake news comes from the msm outlets.
It is true ... it's your reality that is flawed.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Feb 25, 2017, 04:06PM
It is true ... it's your reality that is flawed.

Obviously, at least to anyone with at least half a functional brain ... there goes Poe, yet again!
 
It's crazy ... Poe's Law (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Poe's_Law) used to be mostly a humorous thing--true, but about fairly specific and kinda fringe thinking. In terms of frequency it's become normal these days ... oddly enough corresponding with the rise of the Nuze Mead and the easy availability of "info" that's comforting to those who feel the need to connect with other credulous and invested minds in order to feel secure about their delusions.
 
As long as we insist upon lavishing dogmatism and fanaticism and proudly selective vapidity with attention though, we're part of the problem because that gives the dogmatists and fanatics a platform and an enhanced voice, and the frequency at which we tend to do this gives them a dramatically enhanced voice.
 
Humans need to get far better at thinking about what we're doing rather than just doing as we feel.


Title: Re: Your unbalanced DOTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 25, 2017, 04:51PM
Trump says he wants to make America great again.

He says he going to do this by closing the boarders.

Here is why he's an idiot:  Immigration made America great.  This is the absolute truth of the matter.  Does anyone remember the big lady on Ellis Island?  Someone should show Trump the words written on it - the poem that begins “Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free.”  What made America great was bringing together people from all around the world with different ideas and cultures.  Not building walls and closing borders.  Two of his 3 wives are immigrants.


He says he's going to do this by tearing up trade agreements so that people will buy American.

Here's why he's an idiot:  7 of his 10 cars are imports from Germany, England and Italy.  His daughter runs a business wherein she sells to  the American market Chinese made products.  Two of his wives are imports.


He says he's going to do this by bringing companies back to the US.

Here's why he's n idiot:  Most of the companies that have left to set up operations elsewhere did it for 2 main reasons.  1) because the goods they make need to compete in a global market and they cannot be competitive in world markets paying US wages and taxes.  2) because they cant find Americans to do the jobs, either because they can;t pay enough or the work is disgusting or dangerous.  These are the jobs he' going to try to bring back.  If he does, most of these companies will fail.


He say's he going to do this by ousting illegal immigrants (mostly just Mexicans) so that there will be more jobs for Americans.

Here's why he's an idiot:  I covered this a few posts back.  

Get ready for unaffordable produce and/or a new peasant class in the US.  

Well, you're wrong and inaccurate on every point you made.

So, there you go.



Title: Re: Your unbalanced DOTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 25, 2017, 04:57PM
Well, you're wrong and inaccurate on every point you made.

So, there you go.


You are entitled to your opinion, but I'd like some refutation of BillO's points.  I can't accept simply saying "it's not true" without some kind of corroboration.


Title: Re: Your unbalanced DOTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Feb 25, 2017, 05:27PM
You are entitled to your opinion, but I'd like some refutation of BillO's points.  I can't accept simply saying "it's not true" without some kind of corroboration.

I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for more depth

 :rolleyes:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 25, 2017, 05:44PM
I'll just do the first point:

Immigration made America great.

True statement. But Bilo's implying Trump is against immigration, which is false and disengenuios, This indicates that anyone who would start a discussion using false premises isn't interested in real dialogue.

So I'm leaving it there.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: elmsandr on Feb 25, 2017, 06:25PM
I'll just do the first point:

Immigration made America great.

True statement. But Bilo's implying Trump is against immigration, which is false and disengenuios, This indicates that anyone who would start a discussion using false premises isn't interested in real dialogue.

So I'm leaving it there.
Fine, he's just against immigration of anybody that is brown.  Is that fair?  The evidence seems to suggest that it is.

Cheers,
Andy


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 25, 2017, 06:30PM
Actually, my grievance is not quite the same as BillO's.  I agree that legal immigration made America great.  At the turn of the 20th Century there were no limitations on immigrants, except for some from Asia.  This changed after World War I.

There are a lot of illegal immigrants here.  While most are from Mexico, a lot are from other areas as well.  But Trump is apparently concentrating on Mexicans.  I don't agree that he's surgically removing only bad actors; seems the ICE folks are just rounding up anybody who looks Mexican and locking them up.

If he went after all the Indians, Pakistanis, Irish, and others like he's going after the Mexicans I might be more sympathetic.  Then again, all of them are the types that contribute to America.  Including the Mexicans.  So this is a misplaced activity.

I should also point out that Trump hired more undocumented immigrants than the typical Arizona Cantaloupe farmer.  Polish stonemasons who were actually stiffed out of their wages when he threatened their status.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Feb 25, 2017, 07:16PM
You guys are trying to engage in an activity that requires actually being interested in what's real and true, and a genuine interest in what's real and true requires you to be honest and responsible in the process of determining that. So why bother in this case? Have you seen anything that would suggest that's somehow suddenly even remotely likely? Why try to engage in such an activity (presumably) when what you know you're doing according to the entire history of these particular exchanges is simply offering a platform, lending far more credence than is warranted, and continuing to get this particular influence on the social climate in here? Is there anything good in any of that, and is there any actual expectation of anything different?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Feb 25, 2017, 07:23PM
Clearly another liberal fake news rag, since its nose isn't up in The Donald's junk, and it's highly regarded outside of the Alternative Facts™ community and all.
 
A Muslim in Trump's White House (https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/02/rumana-ahmed-trump/517521/)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 25, 2017, 08:39PM
In the first special election test of the Trump era, the Democrats win with large margin.

Buoyed By Anti-Trump Activism, Democrat Wins Delaware Special Election (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/delaware-special-senate-election_us_58b22659e4b060480e089560?3uk9zh353rq7zxgvi&ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009)

Quote
[Democrat] Hansen’s election was no sure thing. The district leans Democratic, but Republican Marino had performed well in previous elections. Hall-Long defeated Marino by 1 percentage point in 2014.

This was a bigger-than-usual deal because a GOP win would have flipped the NJ Senate from Dem control.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 26, 2017, 06:55AM
I'm disappointed Donald has decided to not attend the White House Correspondents Dinner.

He was so unfunny at the similar Al Smith Dinner in October that I'm sure he would have been equally painful at this one.

I'm thinking that Pence goes in his place.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on Feb 26, 2017, 07:00AM
Hearing crooked Hillary had a lot to do with how I voted.  Like I said 4-5 times a week for 2 1/2 months before polls opened.

Maybe Cruz and Rubio were liars, or one of them was.  I like them both but they should of done a better job of defending their actions when called out.     

You know... Billy Mays hit it big when he sold OxiClean. His exuberant, in your face pitch style... with a product that actually worked quite well... and the two just worked out. They had that right combination at the right time in the right way. When he pitched for "Green Now!" the lawn fertilizer in a can... not so much. But he's a pitch man, that's what he did. And he's mostly remembered for the pitches that worked well.

Trump is a pitch man too. Born for tabloids and then reality tv... he is good with coining short tags lines... "you're fired!" and such. They play off an image without needing anything behind them. "Crooked Hillary" is one of those pitches, and a fairly decent one. Was she crooked? No. Your own list of stuff is pretty light and nothing that anyone wouldn't have against them, with none of it wrong to illegal.

What actually is, would be things like trump's son getting US protection and travel funding to go visit a foreign country and sell a product that his father is still fully connected to and using his father's position to help sell. Or Trump retaining the lease on the DC hotel to profit off of foreign dignitaries staying there to see him. THOSE are crooked, and both going on. Simply being secretary of state when a foreign embassy is attacked? Well, that's most of our secretaries of state... and it comes with the position. But trump is well versed at public persona battles and he knows it's best to attack your opponents with your own fault first, because if they try to come back at you with them they look the lesser for it... kinda a "I know you are but what am I" type thing.

Unfortunately for all of us now, while he is a good pitch man, his competency elsewhere seems rather limited. He doesn't know the laws, he doesn't know his own responsibilities or duties, he doesn't know what he can and cannot do, and he's still mostly concerned with his pitches and how they look/appear. Hence the fact he's still touting his election win, and lying about electoral college margins, and talking about how the polls were against him. That was his win. He's did it! He's done! Unfortunately... that is where the pitchman is done. But that's where the product takes over... And trump is a brand, not a product.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on Feb 26, 2017, 08:13AM
I'm disappointed Donald has decided to not attend the White House Correspondents Dinner.

He was so unfunny at the similar Al Smith Dinner in October that I'm sure he would have been equally painful at this one.

I'm thinking that Pence goes in his place.

From FB;

THIS JUST IN:
WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT'S DINNER BOOKS ALEC BALDWIN TO COVER FOR TRUMP, WHO IS TOO AFRAID TO ATTEND.
TICKET SALES SOAR

I can only hope it's true!



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Feb 26, 2017, 08:39AM
From FB;
 
THIS JUST IN:
WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT'S DINNER BOOKS ALEC BALDWIN TO COVER FOR TRUMP, WHO IS TOO AFRAID TO ATTEND.
TICKET SALES SOAR
 
I can only hope it's true!

It would be awesome if every time Trump's cowardice flares up he gets this kind of thing--choose various stand-ins to "represent" him (because only those detached enough from reality to be his supporters are going to fail to recognize the obvious and actually get upset over what only they can manage to perceive as actual misrepresentation rather than earned mockery).
 
Trump's whining was tiresome from before he energized the overt Birther deception (which only ever worked for the most gullible/least honest types), so a break every now and then to present it as the clown act it really is should earn pretty strong ratings--far higher ratings than more of Trump's cowardly weeping and wailing and Alternative Facts™ nonsense. The man is a giant two-year-old cartoon president occupying the most serious office on the planet because we've allowed far too many adults remain two-year-olds in the US. The most important thing we can do as a society is to figure out how we can best ensure that those who have been full grown for awhile get past their terrible twos. If we could pull that off most dogmatists--the Alt-Right and the far right along with the most radical extremes of the Left--would go away. Trump would never happen as long as that remains the case. Real adults don't take infantile cartoons like Trump seriously ... unless of course some fool is actually somehow stupid enough to give them some power.
 
 --
 
I can't help but wonder if we've made our functioning environment too safe--those who would actually support a cartoon like Trump can't be smart enough to survive into adulthood without getting a tremendous amount of unwarranted help ... as illustrated in the fact that car windshield sunshades have to warn people not to drive with them in place or risk being sued. That kind of thing can only protect severe functional retardation, and those who actually deserve that kind of protection aren't eligible to drive in the first place. In a healthy society with an appropriately low occurrence of false adults, "President Trump" simply couldn't happen--at least not outside of a cartoon or comedy.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Feb 26, 2017, 08:51AM
You know... Billy Mays hit it big when he sold OxiClean. His exuberant, in your face pitch style... with a product that actually worked quite well... and the two just worked out. They had that right combination at the right time in the right way. When he pitched for "Green Now!" the lawn fertilizer in a can... not so much. But he's a pitch man, that's what he did. And he's mostly remembered for the pitches that worked well.
 
Trump is a pitch man too. Born for tabloids and then reality tv... he is good with coining short tags lines... "you're fired!" and such. They play off an image without needing anything behind them. "Crooked Hillary" is one of those pitches, and a fairly decent one. Was she crooked? No. Your own list of stuff is pretty light and nothing that anyone wouldn't have against them, with none of it wrong to illegal.
 
What actually is, would be things like trump's son getting US protection and travel funding to go visit a foreign country and sell a product that his father is still fully connected to and using his father's position to help sell. Or Trump retaining the lease on the DC hotel to profit off of foreign dignitaries staying there to see him. THOSE are crooked, and both going on. Simply being secretary of state when a foreign embassy is attacked? Well, that's most of our secretaries of state... and it comes with the position. But trump is well versed at public persona battles and he knows it's best to attack your opponents with your own fault first, because if they try to come back at you with them they look the lesser for it... kinda a "I know you are but what am I" type thing.
 
Unfortunately for all of us now, while he is a good pitch man, his competency elsewhere seems rather limited. He doesn't know the laws, he doesn't know his own responsibilities or duties, he doesn't know what he can and cannot do, and he's still mostly concerned with his pitches and how they look/appear. Hence the fact he's still touting his election win, and lying about electoral college margins, and talking about how the polls were against him. That was his win. He's did it! He's done! Unfortunately... that is where the pitchman is done. But that's where the product takes over... And trump is a brand, not a product.

Unfortunately those with the most money and power (and large elements of certain particularly influential institutions) tremendously benefit from a populace that's responsive to pitch men, and the expression in the sociopolitical climate formula that's a combination of their influence and the apparently increasing lack of the inclination to take the responsibility required to do the necessary intellectual work to see through and past the pitch is proven to already be at a seriously toxic level in the US.
 
 --
 
It seems as if the Interweb has released humanity’s inner troll, and it’s looking like it may be a Pandora’s Box kinda thing, most unfortunately. I’m concerned we don’t seem to be figuring out that we need to take this phenomenon seriously. We’re very bad about recognizing and accepting our own defects, and we have to do that in order to correct them. Our own nature is uniquely positioned to be our own worst enemy, and this is starting to look like a potentially rather extreme example.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 26, 2017, 10:36AM
If that was true, I would rethink it, but the fake news comes from the msm outlets.

You're simply repeating what Trump says. The problem is that he's lying when he says it, which explains why you can never point out a valid example of it happening.

In reply #256, I listed the salient facts of the case.
http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,97611.240.html

You called it "fake news" but hundreds of posts later you still haven't refuted a single one of the facts I listed. You continually complain that 'conservatives' are mistreated on the forum, but the mistreatment is simply pointing out when you're not backing up your own false claims.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 26, 2017, 12:24PM
You're simply repeating what Trump says. The problem is that he's lying when he says it, which explains why you can never point out a valid example of it happening.

In reply #256, I listed the salient facts of the case.
http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,97611.240.html

You called it "fake news" but hundreds of posts later you still haven't refuted a single one of the facts I listed. You continually complain that 'conservatives' are mistreated on the forum, but the mistreatment is simply pointing out when you're not backing up your own false claims.

You still talking about me? Don't you have anything better to do? LOL!



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Feb 26, 2017, 01:30PM
Correction of personal views doesn't happen when your views are founded upon proudly stubborn presumption and bolstered by institutionalized self-deception and denial (intellectual cowardice). Those are the antithesis of intellectual integrity and responsibility--i.e. taking honesty seriously.
 
These are the meta-issues that are always relevant in here--the foundation of discussion (or the obstruction of it) and the social climate--what makes a successful discussion forum or a snipe hunt (trying to get integrity and honesty out of a hard core, highly dedicated dogmatist with no understanding or appreciation of these kinds of things--the substance of the forms.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 26, 2017, 02:29PM
You still talking about me? Don't you have anything better to do? LOL!

I'm disagreeing with you. That's my right. I don't blame you for not liking it, because you're getting your ass handed to you on a regular basis.

If the MSM stories are made up, why is Trump looking for the leakers? LOL!



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Feb 26, 2017, 02:46PM
I'm disagreeing with you. That's my right. I don't blame you for not liking it, because you can't really keep up with the other people in here.

While you're at it, link to the post that you claimed I plagiarized. I already proved that you're a plagiarist, by the simple expedient of finding a word-for-word, unattributed quote from someone else's work in your post. Plagiarists are liars.

You claimed that I did the same thing. If you don't want people 'talking about you', don't talk about me, especially when it's wholly untrue. If you can't prove I plagiarized a post, you're two kinds of liar. I expect you to either produce the plagiarized post or retract the claim. You've been caught out lying, and can't even step up to defend yourself or apologize. If you're not ashamed to be a liar, you weren't raised as well as I was. Either way, you have no right to call me a liar without being able to back it up. How hard is it to find the post you were pretending to refer to?

By all means, link to an MSM story that's fake. I challenged you to do it and you slunk away. The problem you (and your little lying guy) have is that you can't simultaneously claim that the stories are 'fake (meaning, 'made up') and 'leaked' (meaning, 'true, but they aren't supposed to know about them).

If the stories are made up, why is Trump looking for the leakers? LOL!



His response is bordering on trollish behavior. It is pretty clear that he is amused by irritating people.

I am done debating him.

All the logic in the world means nothing to folks who cite disproved statements as fact. No matter how clear the evidence is to the contrary, folks that engage in this sort of 'debate' will either reply in so many words "says you" or change subjects.

I have better ways to spend my time. Arguing with a pig would be more constructive.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 26, 2017, 03:08PM
I don't disagree with you, because I'm used to his lies. He talks about the 'fake news' in the "MSM", but can't produce a single example of an unretracted falsehood in the sources that I would consider 'mainstream'. So he's full of it, obviously.

But this time his lie is about me.

He should either cite the plagiarized post and the identical material (as I did when he claimed someone else's work as his own), or retract the statement, or leave the forum. I realize that truth isn't high on DD's priorities, but when it's about me I don't let it go.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Feb 26, 2017, 03:17PM
I already proved that you're a plagiarist, by the simple expedient of finding a word-for-word, unattributed quote from someone else's work in your post. Plagiarists are liars.
 
You claimed that I did the same thing. If you don't want people 'talking about you', don't talk about me, especially when it's wholly untrue. If you can't prove I plagiarized a post, you're two kinds of liar. I expect you to either produce the plagiarized post or retract the claim.

I'm not sure you're being fair here, man. After all, DD already explained that he didn't cite the article he quoted because he was tired, and while most of us understand that ethical behavior is a responsibility, it's plainly obvious that many Alt-Right types, and obviously the Alternative Facts™ Crüe, operate under different standards--if it's inconvenient in this crowd, obviously ethics are optional. So they're being consistent--it's not just honesty, it's ethics in general, or at least discussion ethics in general.
 
They have a pretty infantile understanding of such matters, so maybe it's not fair to expect them to behave as if they understood. Although it's also not fair to let them impose their ignorance and the depravity that results upon everyone else with votes and equal input in the public square, since after all they'd be too inconvenienced by learning to do so like responsible adults. So I guess since they have the power of sociopolitical influence like everyone else they can't be coddled like adolescents as they'd obviously prefer based upon the tantrums they throw when they don't get their way and have nothing of any substance at all to suggest they should.
 
This is why we have an Electoral College, so maybe the better solution would be to reset on that and cut them loose to fulfill their original function? Has the Trumpistanian Alt-Right and Alternative Facts Crüe proven that's the only way to go as long as we haven't yet gotten more fully over this infantile mentality as a society (or a species)?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Feb 26, 2017, 03:24PM
I am done debating him.

You never started--both parties must be capable in order for debate or discussion to take place. When either is not capable but presumes to be, what you get is obstruction of incompetence ... like our current fake president (he's there, but he's about as much an actual, functional president as Paul Ruebens would be an actual, functional linebacker if he were put in a linebacker's NFL uniform and sent onto the field in a game.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 26, 2017, 04:05PM
I think a good slogan for this administration would be "Okay, we were lying before, but for sure not this time!"

This has come up again and again. As Russ noted in his latest installment of "Wake Up America", you need only to look at Trump's various statements regarding Putin and Russia ("I have a relationship with Putin"; "I have no relationship with Putin") to see the problem.

DDickerson inadvertently turned up the same problem, trying to defend Trump: He parroted the administration's declaration of 'fake news' on the military deportation memo just a little too soon--the administration admitted that the memo existed, when they had no option to keep lying about it.

They lied repeatedly about the Michael Flynn situation. First they said the calls didn't happen, then they said that sanctions weren't discussed, then they admitted the whole thing (after they were forced to by the Washington Post) and fired him. Then they blamed the media.

If nothing was done wrong, what did they fire him for? His behavior didn't have to be criminal to be wrong and immoral. Why did he, and they, lie about the conversation to begin with?

Now they're lying about golf. They're embarrassed because he's playing golf at a record pace instead of doing his job in his opening weeks in office. On one occasion they tried to claim he golfed 'just a few holes', then Rory McIlroy bragged about playing eighteen holes with the president and they were forced to admit the lie. They now lie about pretty much everything, and mostly out of pathological reflex and for no real reason or benefit.

I hate liars.




Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Feb 26, 2017, 04:11PM
I tried posting this story from the Guardian, but it was too long. This might be the most depressing and alarming thing I've read in a long time.


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/26/robert-mercer-breitbart-war-on-media-steve-bannon-donald-trump-nigel-farage?CMP=share_btn_link (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/26/robert-mercer-breitbart-war-on-media-steve-bannon-donald-trump-nigel-farage?CMP=share_btn_link)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 26, 2017, 04:17PM
More fake news from the mainstream media:

It turns out that Fox News's 'expert' is an ex-con using an assumed name of the brother of a former Swedish Prime Minister, and who complains that he never even claimed to be an advisor to the gov't, but Fox gave him that title spuriously.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/02/25/who-is-nils-bildt-swedish-national-security-advisor-interviewed-by-fox-news-is-a-mystery-to-swedes/?tid=sm_tw&utm_term=.5e3d26f0a654


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 26, 2017, 04:38PM
That's twice now (that we know of) that FOX has presented a hoax expert.  Just last year...

Former Fox News commentator sentenced to prison for faking CIA ties (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-twenty-first-fox-crime-analyst-idUSKCN0ZV21Q)

Quote
WASHINGTON - A man who has appeared on Fox News as a guest "terrorism analyst" was sentenced to 33 months in prison on Friday on charges that he fraudulently claimed to have been a CIA agent for decades, U.S. prosecutors said.

Wayne Simmons, 62, of Annapolis, Maryland, was sentenced in U.S. District Court in Alexandria, Virginia, the U.S. Attorney's Office said in a statement.

"Wayne Simmons is a fraud. Simmons has no military or intelligence background, or any skills relevant to the positions he attained through his fraud," said Dana Boente, U.S. Attorney for the Eastern District of Virginia...


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 26, 2017, 05:58PM
That's twice now (that we know of) that FOX has presented a hoax expert.  Just last year...

Former Fox News commentator sentenced to prison for faking CIA ties (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-twenty-first-fox-crime-analyst-idUSKCN0ZV21Q)

Quote
Instead of working for the CIA, Simmons' jobs during that period included nightclub doorman, bookie, manager of a rent-by-the-hour hot tub business, mortgage broker and defensive back for the National Football League's New Orleans Saints, the statement said.

Fox News declined to comment.

Oops!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 26, 2017, 07:35PM
"Okay, we were lying before, but for sure not this time!"
Pretty ... sure...


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 26, 2017, 09:05PM
Pretty ... sure...

Well, sometimes it takes a couple of steps, which go roughly like this:

That's fake news! Never happened!
Okay, it happened, but not just like you said!
Okay, it happened just like you said but who told you?


Or the condensed version, which boils down to:
That's fake news and totally made up, and who's leaking it?

For those who lack the sophistication to follow Spicer & Co.'s multi-step process.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 26, 2017, 09:13PM
In my own twisted, and much misunderstood, way I was agreeing with you 100%.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 26, 2017, 09:15PM
In my own twisted, and much misunderstood, way I was agreeing with you 100%.

No, I got it.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on Feb 27, 2017, 05:10AM
I tried posting this story from the Guardian, but it was too long. This might be the most depressing and alarming thing I've read in a long time.


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/26/robert-mercer-breitbart-war-on-media-steve-bannon-donald-trump-nigel-farage?CMP=share_btn_link (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/26/robert-mercer-breitbart-war-on-media-steve-bannon-donald-trump-nigel-farage?CMP=share_btn_link)

Amazing, and, as you say, depressing and outright scary.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 27, 2017, 06:56AM
I went to see a performance of South Pacific on Saturday.

There is a decent explanation for how some of 'those guys' got to be the way they are in one of the songs.

"You've got to be taught
To hate and fear,
You've got to be taught
From year to year,
It's got to be drummed
In your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made,
And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade,
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught before it's too late,
Before you are six or seven or eight,
To hate all the people your relatives hate,
You've got to be carefully taught!"


So, BVB, what do we do about them?  We need to somehow break the cycle.  As to how you do that?  Well, I have no real answer.  You could change the school system, but since they are driven through community input (PTAs and such), that is not likely to happen.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Feb 27, 2017, 08:10AM
Rogers & Hammerstein = Liberal Media Elite


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 27, 2017, 08:27AM
I think one step would be a reexamination of libel and slander standards that allow people to publish almost any untrue thing about a "public person." It's too easy to manufacture a damaging story under the shield of freedom of speech.

The constitutional protection of speech is not a directive to say the most false, inciteful or damaging things possible.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 27, 2017, 08:34AM
But back to Trump...

Boasting is easy, real government is hard. George Bush found that out, too.


Trump: 'Nobody Knew That Health Care Could Be So Complicated' (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/trump-health-care-complicated)

Quote
President Donald Trump told a bipartisan group of governors at a White House reception Monday morning that GOP tax reform would have to wait for lawmakers to move on repealing Obamacare, cautioning that, "Nobody knew that health care could be so complicated."

"I have to tell you, it's an unbelievably complex subject," Trump said.

For health policy experts and Democrats who spent the last eight years overhauling the nation's health care system in the face of GOP intransigence, Trump's admission that health care is hard dripped with irony. Republicans, in the mean time, voted repeatedly to repeal the Affordable Care Act, but made little progress on settling on what their replacement would look like, a conundrum that is haunting them now.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Feb 27, 2017, 09:25AM
I went to see a performance of South Pacific on Saturday.

There is a decent explanation for how some of 'those guys' got to be the way they are in one of the songs.

"You've got to be taught
To hate and fear,
You've got to be taught
From year to year,
It's got to be drummed
In your dear little ear
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made,
And people whose skin is a diff'rent shade,
You've got to be carefully taught.

You've got to be taught before it's too late,
Before you are six or seven or eight,
To hate all the people your relatives hate,
You've got to be carefully taught!"


So, BVB, what do we do about them?  We need to somehow break the cycle.  As to how you do that?  Well, I have no real answer.  You could change the school system, but since they are driven through community input (PTAs and such), that is not likely to happen.

At the end of the day, kids go back home. And that is where prejudice is taught.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 27, 2017, 10:11AM
But back to Trump...

Boasting is easy, real government is hard. George Bush found that out, too.


Trump: 'Nobody Knew That Health Care Could Be So Complicated' (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/trump-health-care-complicated)


I'm pretty sure that the Republicans had more against the guy who passed the Health Care than the bill itself.

But I'm sure that Trump is getting quite an education.  It's not like running a business.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 27, 2017, 10:33AM
But I'm sure that Trump is getting quite an education.  It's not like running a business.


I suppose he thought there was a way to sue people after they get sick and just pay for a third of what was promised.

It worked in business!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 27, 2017, 11:00AM
I'm pretty sure that the Republicans had more against the guy who passed the Health Care than the bill itself.

That's really why this is so tough. With a few changes, the Obama bill was pretty much what the GOP wanted, but they didn't want it done by a Dem president. Obama actually wanted bipartisan support for the bill, and modeled it after previous GOP proposals just so he could get it done. The Republicans called it 'socialized medicine' and opposed it regardless of the content, and refused to participate in working out the details of the bill.

All of that was done out of political calculation, but the base, especially the Tea Party base and the new congressmen they voted in, took it seriously. So you have Trump saying how terrible the bill is and basically promising whatever people want to hear; you have congressional leaders who don't want the fallout from kicking people off their insurance, which will mean keeping many elements of Obamacare; and you have the conservative caucus that will flatly reject any replacement that retains any part of Obamacare.

Boehner recently said that the only chance for a replacement bill is to do a modified version of Obamacare that would get enough Democratic support to pass without the Tea Party congressmen. That could make some trouble for the GOP, but they'd probably get away with it if Trump openly endorses it, because the zanies currently seem more attached to Trump than to the Tea Party.

I think Boehner's probably right. The question is whether the Dems are sufficiently committed to protecting our health care to help the GOP out of the jam they've created for themselves.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: vito on Feb 27, 2017, 12:08PM
I'm pretty sure that the Republicans had more against the guy who passed the Health Care than the bill itself.

But I'm sure that Trump is getting quite an education.  It's not like running a business.

I suspect that he doesn't know how to run a business either.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 27, 2017, 01:04PM
I suspect that he doesn't know how to run a business either.

I was trying to be diplomatic. ;) :razz:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 27, 2017, 01:06PM
I suspect that he doesn't know how to run a business either.

Contrary to popular belief, you're right. Newsweek did a pretty good summary of this recently, but the reporting has been out there in the NYT, WSJ, and WashPo for many years.

People think he's had a string of successes with a few setbacks, but in reality almost every business he's actually run day-to-day has failed, other than licensing his name and appearing on television.

His actual management of businesses was marked by plainly bad decisions. He financed his casinos at 14% with junk bonds, which nearly guaranteed their failure, then hastened their demise by building competing casinos just up the street. All of them failed. He came out ahead only by stealing from investors who he palmed them off on when he was in trouble.

His airline was based on the idea that commuters wanted more luxury on short hops, which predictably failed again. His steaks and vodkas barely made a ripple. Trump University and his other school (can't remember the name) were little more than scams. He invested in show business and failed. His dad repeatedly bailed him out (he likes to claim he started out with a 'million dollar stake', but in reality his dad gave him million, including illegal loans to his casino in the form of buying and holding chips--they paid a hefty fine for that one).

His purchase of the Plaza Hotel was the gem in the crown, but he paid way too much for it, spent way too much fixing it up (to his family's own gaudy tastes, and it was sold at a huge lost. That was seized by his creditors, along with his yacht and his airline.

The people who are surprised at his incompetence as president simply aren't familiar with his business history. It turns out that being a successful con artist isn't a great predictor for a successful presidency.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 27, 2017, 01:13PM
Being worth $3.6B is the kind of failure a lot of people would like to find themselves with.  :good:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: vito on Feb 27, 2017, 01:20PM
Being worth $3.6B is the kind of failure a lot of people would like to find themselves with.  :good:

Please provide a verifiable source for this claimed value.




Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 27, 2017, 01:22PM
Please provide a verifiable source for this claimed value.




Why?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 27, 2017, 01:23PM
Being worth $3.6B is the kind of failure a lot of people would like to find themselves with.  :good:

First of all, you have no idea what he's worth. He claims to be worth $10B, so even you acknowledge that he's a liar. He may be worth nothing, or less.

Secondly, even if someone gains $3.6B as a con man, that may be admirable to you, but it isn't a skill set that will help our nation. I wouldn't vote for Bernie Madoff, either, no matter how much money he made.

As an American and as a Trump voter, you're not Trump's new partner. You're his new mark.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: vito on Feb 27, 2017, 01:41PM
Why?

I want to see it for myself. Why else?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Feb 27, 2017, 01:46PM
Being worth $3.6B is the kind of failure a lot of people would like to find themselves with.  :good:

And yet he still won't produce his tax returns.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 27, 2017, 01:46PM
I want to see it for myself.

The best way to find information is to research it and find it yourself. You will accept what you find, better than trusting someone else.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 27, 2017, 01:48PM
First of all, you have no idea what he's worth. He claims to be worth $10B, so even you acknowledge that he's a liar. He may be worth nothing, or less.

Secondly, even if someone gains $3.6B as a con man, that may be admirable to you, but it isn't a skill set that will help our nation. I wouldn't vote for Bernie Madoff, either, no matter how much money he made.

As an American and as a Trump voter, you're not Trump's new partner. You're his new mark.

Look it up for yourself.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 27, 2017, 01:49PM
And yet he still won't produce his tax returns.

So? That's not a requirement as far as I know.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: vito on Feb 27, 2017, 01:52PM
The best way to find information is to research it and find it yourself. You will accept what you find, better than trusting someone else.

If you have the link handy, that would assist with my research.

If you happen to need assistance with my particular area of expertise (please feel free to pm if you'd like to know that that is), I would be happily provide links to any/all sources that I have handy. That would be the least I could do to help someone with a shared interest.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 27, 2017, 01:55PM
I want to see it for myself.

That's very wise. Even his current holdings are suspect.

The financials he turned in to the FEC listed gross revenues instead of profits in many cases (that is permitted on the form), but those don't mean anything. It is certain that many of his businesses either make very little money or lose money. The evidence for this is property tax hearings, which are public, unlike income tax. P&Ls from businesses on commercial properties are used as part of the basis for evaluating the underlying properties for assessed value, so some of his money-losing businesses are a matter of record even though he is, of necessity, keeping his income tax records secret.

His signature Doral golf course lost $2 million annually on an investment of $104 million (that's in line for privately owned golf courses--it's a terrible business). The Trump Tower is financially structured so it needs very high occupancy to make money, and has shown losses in some previous years. It's doing better now because of renting to his campaign and then the Secret Service. In the long run, his presidency will be a liability for occupants of his buildings and probably for him, for obvious reasons.

People who don't understand business look at his lifestyle and assume that because he owns jets and gold-plated bathroom fixtures he must be worth a lot of money, but in reality he had the same lifestyle when he was a billion in the hole.

If Trump can continue to monetize the presidency, he will leave in two or four years as a rich man, but I wouldn't necessarily bet that he has any equity going in.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 27, 2017, 01:56PM
Look it up for yourself.

Why are you telling me that? I already did. The $3.6B number comes from business press guessing at his balance sheet. The ten billion dollar number is, as you seem to admit, another Trump lie. Neither is reliable. Most banks like to see income that you actually paid taxes on. To the extent that we have access to that information, despite Don's best efforts, it's not flattering to his business empire.

If I ever go into the confidence game business, I'll certainly look you up. You're a slam dunk.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 27, 2017, 01:56PM
The best way to find information is to research it and find it yourself. You will accept what you find, better than trusting someone else.

It hasn't worked for you.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: bhcordova on Feb 27, 2017, 02:03PM
If this thread continues mudslinging at members, it will be lock and strikes assessed.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 27, 2017, 02:12PM
If you have the link handy, that would assist with my research.

If you happen to need assistance with my particular area of expertise (please feel free to pm if you'd like to know that that is), I would be happily provide links to any/all sources that I have handy. That would be the least I could do to help someone with a shared interest.

I have found especially on this forum that providing links do not satisfy those who question you. That is why I advise to do your own research. From a saving time perspective, if you would have googled, you would already have a link.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 27, 2017, 02:19PM
I want to see it for myself. Why else?

The best advice I can give you is to get good at evaluating sources of information.

For example, on this forum you can look at the quality and detail of my posts on Trump' business dealings, and my knowledge of business, and compare them to the various people claiming they know Trump is rich. I don't think it's impossible or even difficult to decide who is credible or qualified.

Also, you can notice who can document their opinion with links. Here's a decent summary, but the same ground is well-trod elsewhere:
http://www.newsweek.com/2016/10/28/donald-trump-business-busts-victims-511034.html

People will generally check links on this forum, and also take the source into account, which only makes sense. Saying "Look it up for yourself" doesn't really make sense when you're the one asserting the fact.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: vito on Feb 27, 2017, 02:31PM
It was indeed a challenge to a fellow forum member to provide a reference/citation in order to lend credibility to their claim as would be expected in any serious (e.g., academic) discussion.

I guess this thread doesn't qualify...


The best advice I can give you is to get good at evaluating sources of information.

For example, on this forum you can look at the quality and detail of my posts on Trump' business dealings, and my knowledge of business, and compare them to the various people claiming they know Trump is rich. I don't think it's impossible or even difficult to decide who is credible or qualified.

Also, you can notice who can document their opinion with links. Here's a decent summary, but the same ground is well-trod elsewhere:
http://www.newsweek.com/2016/10/28/donald-trump-business-busts-victims-511034.html

People will generally check links on this forum, and also take the source into account, which only makes sense. Saying "Look it up for yourself" doesn't really make sense when you're the one asserting the fact.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 27, 2017, 03:06PM
It was indeed a challenge to a fellow forum member to provide a reference/citation in order to lend credibility to their claim as would be expected in any serious (e.g., academic) discussion.

I guess this thread doesn't qualify...

My problem with the 'look it up yourself' trope is that the burden of evidence is fairly placed upon the person making the claim.

If I say (hypothetically), "Donald Trump currently has a 16-year-old boy living with him as a lover in the White House," to pose an extreme example, people are entitled to know the basis for my opinion. "Look it up yourself" doesn't suffice, especially if the claim is spurious.

The various estimates of Trump's income come from guesses from business magazines, which they would not claim as entirely accurate, or from Trump himself, which makes them unlikely to be true.

I'm a mediocre businessman (whatever you do, don't elect me President!) but I do know that 'spending money' isn't 'equity'. Having a lavish lifestyle isn't an automatic sign of wealth. Anyone who's paid attention to professional entertainers, athletes, and Donald Trump (to name three examples) knows that.

My frustration is that most people are so naďve about business that they believe a luxurious existence proves some sort of genius that qualifies one for public office. Even a solid and real business expertise doesn't transfer perfectly to governing. And rich people aren't necessarily great managers. A car thief, bank robber, or Ponzi scheme operator all have specific and highly developed skills that can generate income, but they're not necessarily skills that will help them govern.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 27, 2017, 03:10PM
My problem with the 'look it up yourself' trope is that the burden of evidence is fairly placed upon the person making the claim.


If the purpose is to get to the truth, then researching for yourself is the most reliable way to do that.

If, however, there is another agenda afloat, then the 'look it up yourself' trope excuse may be your out. This is not a court room, so there is no burden of evidence placed on anyone. Sadly for some, your own your own.



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 27, 2017, 03:23PM
I certainly 'look it up' for myself, and regularly, but how are you supposed to 'look up' something that's untrue? I can't verify that Trump is worth $3.6 billion, which is why I don't say it.

If I say something, I can support it. As you point out, that's not a legal burden of evidence--this isn't a court--but it's reasonable to ask for in a discussion. You're making a claim about Trump's net worth. I'm not making one, because neither of us has any idea what he's worth. He might be worth $3.6B, but he might be worth nothing.

In general, I think people can read our posts and make a decision on whom to believe.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 27, 2017, 03:40PM

From Forbes:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenniferwang/2016/09/28/the-definitive-look-at-donald-trumps-wealth-new/#eaedf47a581f

This was really easy to look up guys.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: vito on Feb 27, 2017, 03:47PM
From Forbes:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenniferwang/2016/09/28/the-definitive-look-at-donald-trumps-wealth-new/#eaedf47a581f

This was really easy to look up guys.


Of course it was easy to look up. We knew that. The point is that those engaged in serious discussions provide references/citations to support their assertions as a matter of course.

Trump and I are from the same hometown and we have a phrase for people who are either too lazy or choose not to support their arguments with verifiable sources, "Stop talking out of your...         trombone."


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 27, 2017, 03:50PM
Of course it was easy to look up. We knew that. The point is that those engaged in serious discussions provide reference/citations to support their assertions as a matter of course.



Like I stated before, this is not a classroom or courtroom. Those that engage in discussions are not required to provide anything. However, I'm looking forward to references, links, and citations from everybody now. LOL!



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: vito on Feb 27, 2017, 03:56PM
Those that engage in discussions are not required to provide anything.

What's the point, then?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 27, 2017, 04:10PM
What's the point, then?

The point is to have a conversation. If someone says something you don't agree with, check it out. What's so hard about that?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 27, 2017, 05:10PM
From your link:
Quote
One more thing: The bombastic Republican presidential candidate said on Monday night that his FEC filing showed income of $694 million for the past year. It doesn’t, because in the document he freely mixed revenue with income, and it covers a period of 17 months.

Sounds a lot like what I said.

That's why I like people to provide documentation--because they tend to use their own sources selectively, and when you read the sources you catch them at it. No one, including Fortune, Bloomberg, and Forbes, really knows what Trump is worth, but at least you can look at the evidence and evaluate it, and put a date on the article.

The other importance is that your own source proves that Trump is a liar. His claim to be worth $10 billion isn't even slightly plausible, and there's a reason he's not providing tax returns to prove it.

I totally get where you're coming from--you're not in a courtroom or an organized debate, so you'd rather just say things without evidence. And why wouldn't you? When was the last time anyone was persuaded by this sort of exchange?

In my case, anyone smart enough to be persuaded by evidence is already smart enough to agree with me.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Feb 27, 2017, 05:28PM
And if he's worth half of what he's claimed?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 27, 2017, 06:17PM

In my case, anyone smart enough to be persuaded by evidence is already smart enough to agree with me.


If I agreed with you, we both would be wrong.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 27, 2017, 06:19PM
And if he's worth half of what he's claimed?

I recall that $10 Billion figure was a sworn, FEC document. By law, it's suppose to be accurate.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 27, 2017, 06:54PM
I recall that $10 Billion figure was a sworn, FEC document. By law, it's suppose to be accurate.

He's very lucky that's not enforceable.

Part of the problem is that the FEC document is designed to determine conflicts of interest, not net worth. You're allowed to show gross revenues from a business, so it's largely irrelevant. It's not designed to keep people from exaggerating their interests.

The second part is that Trump is a relentless liar. By his own admission, his net worth isn't his assets minus his liabilities, but just what he wants to say is true.

http://www.newsweek.com/how-much-trump-worth-depends-how-he-feels-384720

The third part is that it doesn't matter in the end how rich Trump is, because we're hiring him to run something, and there's no question that running things is not his forte, as his supporters are quickly learning (just kidding, his supporters don't learn any quickly, if at all). Lots of people make tons of money without being qualified for the presidency. Dumb, poor people think all rich people must be pretty much smart about everything, and it's just not true.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 27, 2017, 06:55PM
If I agreed with you, we both would be wrong.

It would certainly put me on notice, if it happened.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 27, 2017, 07:13PM
I recall that $10 Billion figure was a sworn, FEC document. By law, it's suppose to be accurate.
Net Worth can change daily. Property values go up and down like gas prices.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on Feb 27, 2017, 07:29PM
Net Worth can change daily. Property values go up and down like gas prices.
By 300% in a year? Um.... no.

Trump admitting in one of his own lawsuits attacking someone who estimated his worth lower than he liked that he literally makes up his own valuation of his net worth every day. And it's base on? How he feels. That's it. One big lie. Hence why he's afraid to show his taxes and provide his TRUE worth.

Otherwise... no, you can't just look up how much a private citizen makes. Especially when they work in a private company...

Can we move on to 2017 now?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 27, 2017, 09:12PM
By 300% in a year? Um.... no.

Trump admitting in one of his own lawsuits attacking someone who estimated his worth lower than he liked that he literally makes up his own valuation of his net worth every day. And it's base on? How he feels. That's it. One big lie. Hence why he's afraid to show his taxes and provide his TRUE worth.

Otherwise... no, you can't just look up how much a private citizen makes. Especially when they work in a private company...

Can we move on to 2017 now?


We're speaking about net worth, not salary.

I can turn 4 dollars into 10 dollars in one week, much less one year. Also, I can lose from 10 down to 4 dollars in one day. or less. LOL!

Tax returns don't reflect net worth anyway.



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Feb 28, 2017, 01:21AM
We're speaking about net worth, not salary.

I can turn 4 dollars into 10 dollars in one week, much less one year. Also, I can lose from 10 down to 4 dollars in one day. or less. LOL!

Tax returns don't reflect net worth anyway.

You're very, very gullible. Donald has never, ever been worth $10 billion dollars. He sued someone for libel who claimed he wasn't a billionaire, and lost, because he wasn't one, at least at that time. I should give you a link to P.T. Barnum, but you'd probably vote for him as president.

You're right that tax returns don't directly reflect net worth, but they reflect profit and loss, and businesses that lose money aren't worth as much as ones that make money. Donald isn't releasing his tax returns because he owns a lot of businesses that lose money, or make very little. I can't imagine why you're so invested in sticking up for this loser.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on Feb 28, 2017, 04:16AM
In actual news... apparently trump found out that healthcare is complicated yesterday. oops.

Makes me wonder if he even started looking at it earlier when he promised that he would have a new healthcare proposal weeks ago. Doubtful.

Though he does also say, they need to figure out what to do about healthcare before they can look at taxes and the budget.


Meanwhile.... trump's budget proposal is not only stupid, it can't get through congress per the sequester, since the sequester stops exactly what it would try to do.

Sounds like when trying to actually DO something, he's running into wall after wall of his own incompetence. By the time he's ready to move somewhere... it will be the next election, and the GOP can only go down in power...


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 28, 2017, 06:31AM
Donald has never, ever been worth $10 billion dollars.

Actually, I have never stated that he ever was worth anything but $3.7B, but since you claim he never was worth $10B:

Where is your link?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 28, 2017, 07:29AM
Donald claims he's worth $10 Billion


http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/donald-trump-claims-hes-worth-10-billion-n392706 (http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/donald-trump-claims-hes-worth-10-billion-n392706)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 28, 2017, 07:30AM
In current events...

Trump accuses Obama of orchestrating protest against him  (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/28/donald-trump-accuses-barack-obama-orchestrating-protests-leaks?CMP=fb_gu)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Feb 28, 2017, 07:43AM
In current events...

Trump accuses Obama of orchestrating protest against him  (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/28/donald-trump-accuses-barack-obama-orchestrating-protests-leaks?CMP=fb_gu)

Classic deflection. Apparently he is incapable of considering that maybe just maybe, the citizens of this great country are capable of thinking and acting on their own.

I guess it would be too painful for him to think that not everyone is drinking his koolaid.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: MoominDave on Feb 28, 2017, 08:36AM
Trump and his team that enable him by following his lead simply do not tell the truth; rather, everything is projection. A near infallible rule for gaining understanding rather than confusion and despondency from their pronouncements/ravings is to avoid the usual process of examining the words for truth entirely - there is very often not a shred of it, even lurking in the background to give the lies veracity. Instead, the response that I'm learning to deploy is to ask myself what particular projection is lurking behind a given slur.

A few examples:
"Lyin' Ted". Well this one is obvious. Trump lies his arse off every time he opens his mouth.
"Little Marco". Rubio mocked Trump's small hands. So he was mocked for the exact same thing. 'I know you are, you said you are, but what am I?' was a popular line in the school playground among 5 year olds at one time... It still is in Trump's tower.
"Crooked Hillary". Again, this is obvious. Trump's shady business dealings may yet take him down, even with the whole of Congress on his side. "It isn't a conflict of interest because I'm the president". Running a private email server *right now* when he persuaded millions that Hillary Clinton couldn't be trusted for doing the same thing. And we haven't even dealt with his years of bad business management.
"Fake news". Trump won off the back of campaign support of a flood of fake news sites, and now accuses real news of being fake.

etc... etc... etc... It's all gaslighting, and none of it is at all subtle. It seems a waste of time to label it as the breathtaking hypocrisy that it is, because the moral crimes being committed simply use the hypocrisy as a method to get there.

So here, I ask myself what this outrageous assertion about Obama (who appears to have conducted himself with integrity and class throughout) is actually saying. Following the previous pattern, it's a confession to at least a desire to behave badly in the way described on Trump's part - and probably to having already done so. Is he saying that when he's removed from the presidentship, he'll try to kick up a mighty stink? I think we could have guessed that already. Is he saying that his team have been sponsoring civil disobedience? For example, the mysterious troublemakers in the demo at University of Berkeley might have been? Alt-right types have been very quick to talk about 'false flags' in the past, even in the most unlikely contexts - the techniques are obviously in the minds of these people. Sadly, it isn't unthinkable that the US president's team is behind civil disorder, designed to enable him to pass security-restricting measures. America, I sincerely hope that you can avoid the descent into fascism that is implicit in him.

Hey, I wonder if Trump's US birth certificate actually exists...


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Feb 28, 2017, 10:02AM
"Lyin' Ted". Well this one is obvious. Trump lies his arse off every time he opens his mouth.
That's why I call it a cartoon presidency ... well, one of the many major reasons anyway. Trump's legacy is going to be that his presidency was the actual, real life manifestation of the Bart Simpson presidency, only without the charisma and good nature. Mostly The Donald lives by Bart's line; I didn't do it. No one saw it. You can't prove anything.
 
"Little Marco". Rubio mocked Trump's small hands. So he was mocked for the exact same thing. 'I know you are, you said you are, but what am I?' was a popular line in the school playground among 5 year olds at one time... It still is in Trump's tower.
If he could at least show some creativity or imagination in his insults, but instead they're not only comically transparent, but also have all the flare and wit of Biff Tannen. His vocabulary, or rather his lack thereof, and his third grade grasp of the English language are a national embarrassment every time he speaks.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on Feb 28, 2017, 10:14AM
If he could at least show some creativity or imagination in his insults, but instead they're not only comically transparent, but also have all the flare and wit of Biff Tannen.

Well, biff was modelled on him...
http://metro.co.uk/2016/11/10/back-to-the-futures-biff-tannen-was-based-on-donald-trump-6248039/


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 28, 2017, 11:17AM
Note the letter included in this article. 

One page of text explaining why Trump's proposed State Department cuts are a bad idea.

Nine pages of ex-military (all generals and admirals) signing it.

Lindsey Graham Says Trump's First Budget Is 'Dead On Arrival' (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/lindsey-graham-trump-budget-dead-on-arrival)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Feb 28, 2017, 11:41AM
$50B increase in military budget.

The threats are:

ISIS?
Iran?
N Korea?



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 28, 2017, 12:25PM
Trump did promise to drain the swamp afterall.  :D


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: SensitiveJohn on Feb 28, 2017, 12:40PM
$50B increase in military budget.

The threats are:

ISIS?
Iran?
N Korea?



The threats are the rich not getting richer.  This is just a reverse robin hood scheme to get the tax payers to funnel money to the 0.1% that fund the campaigns of congressional Republicans and many Democrats.  More than half of the federal taxpayer money goes to Social Security and Medicare.  Defense spending is next.  We spend more on defense than China, India, Russia, the UK, France, and Brazil combined. The CEO of Lockheed Martin makes more than $7 million per year.  An E5 Sergent makes less than $35k.  Disgusting!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 28, 2017, 12:59PM
In current events...

Trump accuses Obama of orchestrating protest against him  (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/feb/28/donald-trump-accuses-barack-obama-orchestrating-protests-leaks?CMP=fb_gu)
Beside "hubris" in the dictionary is a picture of Trump.

You will also see his picture next to the following words:
racist
narcissist
liar
cheat
dishonest
untrustworthy
dour
petulant
demented
antagonistic
paranoid
misogynistic
loser
megalomaniac
wannabe despot
uninformed
wantonly ignorant

Did I miss any?




Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 28, 2017, 01:00PM
Trump did promise to drain the swamp afterall.  :D
Is that how he's going to make Florida great again?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on Feb 28, 2017, 02:54PM
Is that how he's going to make Florida great again?

HEY! Our alligators aren't billionaire donors.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 28, 2017, 08:12PM
I love Florida's alligators.  Sometimes I travel there to photograph them for days at a time.

(http://www.onebytecpu.com/images/HnA.jpg)

(http://www.onebytecpu.com/images/photog/alligatr.jpg)

(http://www.onebytecpu.com/images/IMGP0376.jpg)




Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 28, 2017, 08:45PM
They make for interesting hazards on the golf courses.

I was considering a job in Melbourne FL.  We went on a familiarization tour.  My wife asked about the alligators.  She was told occasionally a dog disappears.  That was the end of the Florida job.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Feb 28, 2017, 09:09PM
I haven't played golf in 22 years.  I'm way too good at it - Tiger Woods paid me to step aside...otherwise he'd never have won that first Masters in '97.    :rolleyes:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 28, 2017, 10:03PM
HEY! Our alligators aren't billionaire donors.


Just to try, i googled "billionaire alligator"...

Alligator Bomber Jacket by Billionaire. $58,964

Quote
Exquisitely crafted in Italy from genuine alligator skin, this bomber jacket by Billionaire is the ultimate in refined luxury. A must for any well edited outerwear collection, the jacket is lined with quilted silk and features zipped pockets and ribbed trims. Layer over a turtleneck jumper with designer denim and velvet slippers for first class style. Billionaire Exquisitely crafted in Italy from genuine alligator skin, this bomber jacket by Billionaire is the ultimate in refined luxury. A must for any well edited outerwear collection, the jacket is lined with quilted silk and features zipped pockets and ribbed trims. Layer over a turtleneck jumper with designer denim and velvet slippers for first class style.


(https://d2vltrwt7ph0xj.cloudfront.net/live/feed-images/aHR0cDovL2ltYWdlcy5oYXJyb2RzLmNvbS9pbWcvNTMzNTM1Mj8kZnVsbFNjcmVlbiQ/large.jpg)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Mar 01, 2017, 06:02AM
Great Speech last night by Trump!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Mar 01, 2017, 06:20AM
Great Speech last night by Trump!

Yup.  In 4th grade language.  No specifics.  But he didn't rant.  I guess that makes it great.  I wouldn't put it against the Lincoln 2nd Inaugural or Churchill's "Blood, Sweat, and Tears" speeches, though.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Mar 01, 2017, 06:33AM
I watched the pundits give their reactions on television this morning. So many of his supporters are saying yes, he is stepping up his game.

I am not holding my breath. Speeches have shelf life (as a senator said this morning). Actions will speak louder than words.

I am reminded of the analogy of the guy who has a history of beating his wife. One day he acts nice and his wife declares to her kids "See? Daddy really is a good guy!"


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Mar 01, 2017, 06:50AM
Great Speech last night by Trump!
It was great that he actually did not embarrass himself or your country.  That's definitely a first for him.  As for truly great, I doubt we'll be listening to quotes from it 100 or more years down the road.

It was obviously not something he wrote as it had a certain coherence to it, but it was written for him.  The language was simplistic and the sentences were short.  Something tuned to his vocabulary and attention span.

Overall I'd say it's the best speech I have heard him give.  Let's see how he does next time he talks without the prompter screens.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: bhcordova on Mar 01, 2017, 06:55AM
Just realized - one good thing about having Trump as president - Don't have to listen to my U.S. Representative (Louie Gohmert) proudly make inane statements as the Republican rebuttal.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 01, 2017, 07:32AM
"Russians moved money through Trump via Putin connected Bank of Cyprus, vice chair: Wilbur Ross."


New Commerce Secretary at nexus of lucrative Trump Russian deal (http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/new-commerce-secretary-at-nexus-of-lucrative-trump-russian-deal-886220355575)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: timothy42b on Mar 01, 2017, 07:36AM
Just realized - one good thing about having Trump as president - Don't have to listen to my U.S. Representative

But, I REALLY REALLY miss those clever Biden-Obama memes. 


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: elmsandr on Mar 01, 2017, 09:23AM
Great Speech last night by Trump!
Only when you filled in the blanks with things he didn't say.

For example, the opening statement that the horrific attacks on JCC's and the attack in KS remind us that we are united against evil.  Pretty neat that he didn't actually say that he condemns it.  Most took the remarks as you probably did.  Those hardcore jerks that are a nice chunk of his base?  They heard that he doesn't condemn it.  Nothing new here. Recall that EARLIER THAT DAY he had said that maybe Jewish groups were calling in the threats themselves!!!  what the heck?

Similarly with his honoring of the Navy Seal's widow.  Pretty cool for him to support the military so...  To bad that he earlier yesterday repeated that "we don't fight to win" anymore.  He also blamed the loss of the Seal on the generals, deflecting any personal responsibility.  C'mon man.  Listen to what he ACTUALLY says, not what you think he says.  No change here, either.

Pretty despicable in several ways, actually.  But he didn't rant and sound like a complete nutter, so I guess it was an improvement, but still not good by any standard other than Trump.

Cheers,
Andy


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: mwpfoot on Mar 01, 2017, 09:41AM
Lunatic reading a speech instead of ranting and raving = greatness?

 :rolleyes:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Mar 01, 2017, 09:44AM
It truly was a great Trump speech, but it would have been a poor one for anyone else.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 01, 2017, 11:06AM
What does the widow thing even mean?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Mar 01, 2017, 11:17AM
What does the widow thing even mean?

It's a cheap ploy for sympathy.

You know where sympathy falls in the dictionary, right?  Between s**t and symphony.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 01, 2017, 11:27AM
The best I can tell is it gave Trump a moment where no one could boo.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Mar 01, 2017, 11:30AM
He seemed to be getting plenty of applause.  Lots of feel good stuff; very little policy and specifics.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Mar 01, 2017, 12:30PM
Demonizing immigrants.

Of course, when they come for the immigrants, I didn't raise my voice because I wasn't an immigrant.

Actually, I'm sure Trump has all kinds of reports that show he can bash away at immigrants and his approval ratings go up. Victims of Immigrant Crime - Orwellian newspeak.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 01, 2017, 12:33PM
But it was still a record!

Trump Address To Congress Draws Fewer Viewers Than Obama's 2009 Speech (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/trump-speech-to-congress-less-viewers-than-obama)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Mar 01, 2017, 02:46PM
Yup.  In 4th grade language.  No specifics.  But he didn't rant.  I guess that makes it great.  I wouldn't put it against the Lincoln 2nd Inaugural or Churchill's "Blood, Sweat, and Tears" speeches, though.

Absolutely right ... the kudos are more about the clownishly low expectations The Donald has achieved than anything particularly good about the speech. That said, it was refreshing to see that he's at least capable of not getting into elementary school play yard buelshite--not sure what it took to pull that off or how hard it was on him, but he can actually do it ... at least over the duration of a speech.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: bhcordova on Mar 01, 2017, 02:53PM
Not so sure that was actually him.  Didn't I see arm going into his back? 


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Mar 01, 2017, 03:00PM
He seemed to be getting plenty of applause.  Lots of feel good stuff; very little policy and specifics.

It was almost all a hair over 50% applause though, and at a lot of rather less than overwhelming moments.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: gregs70 on Mar 01, 2017, 05:46PM
Fact checkers had a field day.  He was wWrong on illegal immigration numbers.  He took credit for business investments made before he was elected. The Pentagon had already negotiated down the price on the F-35 before Trump got involved.  His jobs figures for the pipelines are inflated by a factor of ten.  Stats show that immigrants don't do violent crime, etc. any more than the general population.  94 million Americans 16 and over out of labor force?  Yeah, if you could students, retirees, stay-at-home parents, and the disabled.  Truth is 7.6 million workers who are looking for work are unemployed.  He said violent crime is up, but is on a decades-long decline. 


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Mar 01, 2017, 06:24PM
Fact checkers had a field day.  He was wWrong on illegal immigration numbers.  He took credit for business investments made before he was elected. The Pentagon had already negotiated down the price on the F-35 before Trump got involved.  His jobs figures for the pipelines are inflated by a factor of ten.  Stats show that immigrants don't do violent crime, etc. any more than the general population.  94 million Americans 16 and over out of labor force?  Yeah, if you could students, retirees, stay-at-home parents, and the disabled.  Truth is 7.6 million workers who are looking for work are unemployed.  He said violent crime is up, but is on a decades-long decline.

Fake facts ... clearly.
 
Alternative Facts™ are the Real™ ones.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 01, 2017, 06:27PM
Here's a cogent explanation of the widow show...

Trump's Shame (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/trump-s-shame)

Quote
this spectacle from President Trump last night was transparently constructed in order to repurpose Owens' widow's palpable grief into a heat shield to ward any effort to question the wisdom of the raid or Investigate what happened and why.
Quote
"The Pentagon says Navy SEALs scooped up laptops, hard drives and cell phones in last month's Yemen raid, but multiple U.S. officials told NBC News that none of the intelligence gleaned from the operation so far has proven actionable or vital — contrary to what President Trump said in his speech to Congress Tuesday."


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Mar 01, 2017, 06:34PM
Trump has no shame.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Mar 01, 2017, 06:47PM
Trump is really riding on things that were on the upswing before he even declared candidacy:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2017/mar/01/did-trump-inherit-mess-8-charts-show-otherwise/


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Mar 01, 2017, 07:01PM
Trump has no shame.

That's not exactly a revelation from the speech though ... eh?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: bhcordova on Mar 01, 2017, 07:25PM
But, he's pro-life!   And, he's not Hillary!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Mar 01, 2017, 07:28PM
But, he's pro-life!   And, he's not Hillary!

He's pro Trump and he's not organized. :razz:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 02, 2017, 06:59AM
(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17021602_10155890809678327_2824446693804116141_n.jpg?oh=6fb36d99e7609f5dc31a6908358b3e68&oe=593744EB)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Mar 02, 2017, 07:01AM
You know, if Trump had only smoked pot back in his youth, you guys would love him.  :evil:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on Mar 02, 2017, 08:15AM
(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17021602_10155890809678327_2824446693804116141_n.jpg?oh=6fb36d99e7609f5dc31a6908358b3e68&oe=593744EB)

I'm feeling a little dense today. I saw this elsewhere, and I'm not seeing the relevance.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 02, 2017, 08:37AM
subtext...  inserting herself where she should not be.

The original was
Christina's World (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christina's_World) by Andrew Wyeth

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/a2/Christinasworld.jpg)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Mar 02, 2017, 08:39AM
I'm feeling a little dense today. I saw this elsewhere, and I'm not seeing the relevance.


This is a sendup of Andrew Wyeth's "Christina's World".  Kelly Ann Conway is in the Christina position punching a tablet or smart phone with the White House replacing Christina's Maine home.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 02, 2017, 08:41AM
You know, if Trump had only smoked pot back in his youth...

...he might not be such a jackass today.

He might have invented the iPod and been a real billionaire.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Mar 02, 2017, 08:50AM
If Trump weren't a self serving narcissist who cannot tell the truth to save his life...then maybe I'd love him.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Mar 02, 2017, 08:53AM
Dusty, I'm surprised you support him.  In the past he's espoused almost every political position there is (and a few he made up).  I wouldn't be surprised if he wound up taking a very liberal view on some areas.  He seems to be leaning that way on Medical Care -- maybe he'll propose what Obama didn't dare: single payer universal coverage.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: bhcordova on Mar 02, 2017, 08:54AM
But, he's pro-life.  And, he's not Hillary


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Mar 02, 2017, 08:57AM
But, he's pro-life.  And, he's not Hillary

Yup.  Crooked Donald is not Hillary.  But I would not hold my breath about the pro-life.  Especially if he can hire enough doctors to make the Trump Birth Control Centers. :evil:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Posaunus on Mar 02, 2017, 11:08AM
From one of my staunch, Trump-voting neighbors - who will not compromise his strong principles of honesty and transparency:

“Lyin’ Jeff!  Lock him up!” 

 :dont:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: vito on Mar 02, 2017, 11:20AM
But, he's pro-life. 

Sure he is...

I wonder how many abortions he paid for during his 'personal Vietnam.'




Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Mar 02, 2017, 11:55AM
The only thing that 45 is pro about is his own interests


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Mar 02, 2017, 03:38PM
Dusty, I'm surprised you support him.  In the past he's espoused almost every political position there is (and a few he made up).  I wouldn't be surprised if he wound up taking a very liberal view on some areas.  He seems to be leaning that way on Medical Care -- maybe he'll propose what Obama didn't dare: single payer universal coverage.

If you're really surprised, I recommend you look into research on authoritarians. None of this is at all surprising--it's actually unusually predictable.
 
The Authoritarians, by Bob Altemeyer (http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~altemey/)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Mar 02, 2017, 03:41PM
Yup.  Crooked Donald is not Hillary.  But I would not hold my breath about the pro-life.  Especially if he can hire enough doctors to make the Trump Birth Control Centers. :evil:

I think we have to go with Deplorable Donald. Crooked and/or lyin' don't begin to put a dent in his moral and ethical inadequacies ... and that's just looking at two categories of many.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 02, 2017, 10:42PM
The Borowitz Report...

Putin Starting to Wonder If His Puppets Are Smart Enough to Pull This Off (http://www.newyorker.com/humor/borowitz-report/putin-starting-to-wonder-if-his-puppets-are-smart-enough-to-pull-this-off)

Quote
“When you choose a puppet, you’re looking for a sweet spot,” one source close to Putin said. “You want to choose someone who’s dumb enough to be manipulated, but not so dumb that he can’t find the light switches.”


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Mar 02, 2017, 10:47PM

Absolutely right ... the kudos are more about the clownishly low expectations The Donald has achieved than anything particularly good about the speech.

To paraphrase Samuel Johnson:

"Sir, [Trump's speech] is like a dog's walking on his hind legs. It is not done well; but you are surprised to find it done at all."


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 03, 2017, 11:32AM
An attempt explain Trump's Russian bias in terms of purely legal behavior...

The Innocent Explanation, Part #1 (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/the-innocent-explanation)

Quote
...The simplest explanation isn't necessarily the right one. But in the spirit of Occam's Razor, we should prefer it because it usually will be. To state the key point for clarity and emphasis, it is not the simplest explanation. It it is the simplest explanation which accounts for all the known facts. That distinction makes all the difference in the world.

With this prologue and with the above in mind, here is what I would call the innocent explanation of the Trump/Russia story. I don't think it is necessarily the true story. Or, to put it more precisely, I don't think it is necessarily the whole story. But I think it accounts for most of the what we know so far...


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: stampen on Mar 03, 2017, 03:25PM
He's pro Trump and he's not organized. :razz:

 :D :D :D


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on Mar 03, 2017, 05:56PM
An attempt explain Trump's Russian bias in terms of purely legal behavior...

The Innocent Explanation, Part #1 (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/the-innocent-explanation)


That's a great article. THanks!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Mar 04, 2017, 09:22AM
Crazy.

W Post headline:

"President Trump used Twitter to accuse his predecessor of orchestrating a plot to tap the phones at his Trump Tower headquarters last fall in the run-up to the election."


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Mar 04, 2017, 09:53AM
Makes no sense to me either.  Obama has little reason if any to interfere with the election beyond campaigning.  I think if anybody tapped Trump Tower it would be Putin.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 04, 2017, 03:50PM
I'm sure Obama would have worn his all-gold ninja outfit (to appear as invisible amongst the surroundings) when he went to plant the bugs so there's no way Trump has any evidence.

Meanwhile across the nation...

Tens Of People Rally Across The Country In ‘March 4 Trump’ (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/tens-of-people-rally-across-the-country-in-march-4-trump_us_58bafc38e4b0b9989417fdcd?2r1mxpnzix1fhto6r&)

(http://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/crop_0_134_960_520,scalefit_720_noupscale/58bb1f0b1500002100abd309.jpeg?cache=txophtnzz4)

Also, the card and letter of support poured in.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Mar 04, 2017, 08:20PM
I'm sure Obama would have worn his all-gold ninja outfit (to appear as invisible amongst the surroundings) when he went to plant the bugs so there's no way Trump has any evidence.

Meanwhile across the nation...

Tens Of People Rally Across The Country In ‘March 4 Trump’ (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/tens-of-people-rally-across-the-country-in-march-4-trump_us_58bafc38e4b0b9989417fdcd?2r1mxpnzix1fhto6r&)

(http://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/crop_0_134_960_520,scalefit_720_noupscale/58bb1f0b1500002100abd309.jpeg?cache=txophtnzz4)

Also, the card and letter of support poured in.
I count 18.  I guess that is technically '10s'.  1.8 10s to be pedantic.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Mar 04, 2017, 09:05PM
Obama Officials Reveal Efforts to Sabotage Trump Administration

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlohDB7SQOM&feature=youtu.be



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Mar 04, 2017, 09:29PM
Obama Officials Reveal Efforts to Sabotage Trump Administration

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlohDB7SQOM&feature=youtu.be


Bah!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Mar 04, 2017, 10:15PM
Bah!

agreed. Bah. Trump has zero credibility and anyone who believes what comes out of his mouth is in complete denial


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Posaunus on Mar 04, 2017, 11:09PM
Obama Officials Reveal Efforts to Sabotage Trump Administration
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlohDB7SQOM&feature=youtu.be

GOOD GRIEF!  If this is where Trump's folks invent and propagate their "news" - heaven help us all!   :eek:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Mar 05, 2017, 05:28AM
So, OAN is not on your news list?

I think this forum has become a gathering of snowflakes seeking safe zones.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 05, 2017, 07:11AM
Obama Officials Reveal Efforts to Sabotage Trump Administration

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlohDB7SQOM&feature=youtu.be



Report accuses Obama officials of distributing evidence that Trump and entourage have been colluding with the Russians.

If you are saying that report is true then you're conceding there is indeed evidence that Trump and entourage have been colluding with the Russians.

Otherwise, what would there be for the Obama officials to spread around?

Looks like Trump has left a lot to spread.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 05, 2017, 07:19AM
Here is the LinkedIn resume (https://www.linkedin.com/in/pearson-sharp-384a2b37) of the OAN reporter, "Pearson Sharp"

It seems he mostly aspires to be a science fiction writer.



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on Mar 05, 2017, 07:25AM
So, OAN is not on your news list?

I think this forum has become a gathering of snowflakes seeking safe zones.

https://scontent.ftpa1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16387217_1260020924035013_6916955132034307842_n.jpg?oh=74c1e6f70908a957cf869ca23e9bbd5e&oe=596620B9

Once again I am left wishing for better computer skills so I could provide the image rather than the link.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Mar 05, 2017, 07:32AM
https://scontent.ftpa1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16387217_1260020924035013_6916955132034307842_n.jpg?oh=74c1e6f70908a957cf869ca23e9bbd5e&oe=596620B9

Once again I am left wishing for better computer skills so I could provide the image rather than the link.

Just right click and view the image (so you get the actual image URL), copy that URL, use the picture/framed painting icon  (http://tromboneforum.org/Themes/rt_smf_versatility2_sienna/images/bbc/img.gif)and enter the URL in-between the BBCode commands it gives you ([ img ] and [ /img ] without the spaces).
 
(https://scontent.ftpa1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/16387217_1260020924035013_6916955132034307842_n.jpg?oh=74c1e6f70908a957cf869ca23e9bbd5e&oe=596620B9)
 
Heh ... nice image, Russ!
 
   :good:
 
What still really kind of amazes me is that apparently a whole lot of people lack the powers of perception to feel any sense of urgency regarding what to many of us has been about as subtle as a locomotive bearing down on you blowing its whistle for the last few decades. And now here's The Donald. It requires an actual cartoon president before many recognize there's something very wrong with the mentality that enabled it to take place. The Donald is the level of demonstration required before many people see what the actual problems are, and many still manage not to see it. It's really very much like a blindness to me--a two dimensional perception of a three dimensional world, but only in a very specific range of stimuli/input (whereas for the types who are still big fans of The Donald, it's a much more pronounced and pervasive deficit).
 
That really is pretty amazing, but note that it's an amazing fact about human minds--human brains--and we're all human brain owners. Most of us are just a bit better at understanding the adjustments and tweaks and maneuvers we need to use to make them function properly with the other apparatus we use to interact with the world outside of our minds--the whole translation from thought or perception into understanding and behavior and such that authoritarian types don't have going on so much--the lack of the embrace of their ideology is their white whale.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: MoominDave on Mar 05, 2017, 07:42AM
It is heavily ironic that those that attack people for having such feelings are largely invested in a religion whose doctrine prizes the same attributes.

I'm pretty confident that the persona of Jesus as described in the Christian Bible, were he to appear here today, would be disgusted by those that use his name in support of those that seek to control people, that kick back against any suggestion of being nicer to people than they already are, that call names and pretend to be laughing when people contradict them.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Mar 05, 2017, 08:27AM
From Robert Reich

To Trump supporters and apologists:

1. He called Hillary Clinton a crook.
You bought it.
Then he paid $25 million to settle a fraud lawsuit.

2. He said he’d release his tax returns, eventually.
You bought it.
He hasn’t, and says he never will.

3. He said he’d divest himself from his financial empire, to avoid any conflicts of interest.
You bought it.
He is still heavily involved in his businesses, manipulates the stock market on a daily basis, and has more conflicts of interest than can even be counted.

4. He said Clinton was in the pockets of Goldman Sachs, and would do whatever they said.
You bought it.
He then proceeded to put half a dozen Goldman Sachs executives in positions of power in his administration.

5. He said he’d surround himself with all the best and smartest people.
You bought it.
He nominated theocratic loon Mike Pence for Vice President. A white supremacist named Steve Bannon is his most trusted confidant. Dr. Ben Carson, the world’s greatest idiot savant brain surgeon, is in charge of HUD. Russian quisling Rex Tillerson is Secretary of State.

6. He said he’d be his own man, beholden to no one.
You bought it.
He then appointed Betsy DeVos as Secretary of Education, whose only “qualifications” were the massive amounts of cash she donated to his campaign.

7. He said he would “drain the swamp” of Washington insiders.
You bought it.
He then admitted that was just a corny slogan he said to fire up the rubes during the rallies, and that he didn’t mean it.

8. He said he knew more about strategy and terrorism than the Generals did.
You bought it.
He promptly gave the green light to a disastrous raid in Yemen- even though all his Generals said it would be a terrible idea. This raid resulted in the deaths of a Navy SEAL, an 8-year old American girl, and numerous civilians. The actual target of the raid escaped, and no useful intel was gained.

9. He said Hillary Clinton couldn’t be counted on in times of crisis.
You bought it.
He didn’t even bother overseeing that raid in Yemen; and instead spent the time hate-tweeting the New York Times, and sleeping.

10. He called CNN, the Washington Post and the New York Times “fake news” and said they were his enemy.
You bought it.
He now gets all his information from Breitbart, Gateway Pundit, and InfoWars.

11. He called Barack Obama “the vacationer-in-Chief” and accused him of playing more rounds of golf than Tiger Woods. He promised to never be the kind of president who took cushy vacations on the taxpayer’s dime, not when there was so much important work to be done.
You bought it.
He took his first vacation after 11 days in office.
On the taxpayer’s dime.
And went golfing.

And that’s just the first month.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Mar 05, 2017, 08:30AM
[In reply to MoominDave]

Didn't Jesus have a run-in with the religion of the day?  I have been under the impression that he was ratted out because the Jewish religious leaders didn't take kindly to his teachings.

I'd bet that if a new Messiah (whether Jesus or someone else) were to show up today he'd be persecuted by the current religious leaders and probably denounced as a fake.  And I'll bet he won't be White.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Mar 05, 2017, 09:23AM
Keep in mind, always when dealing with authoritarians, that authoritarian complaints about criticism boils down to I don't have any tolerance for seeing my authorities questioned. More accurately My personal sentiments and dogma can't deal with any legitimate issues critics might raise when they criticize my authorities. The vast majority if not the entirety of the words they use actual boil down to that notion--that sentiment. Anything that doesn't comport with that notion will be ignored or translated and reframed into that of this notion in a way that affirms it. That means discussion of any such matters is not an option with authoritarians ... doesn't happen. It just turns into fuel for that process. What you say is translated (transformed) into what the authoritarian needs as fuel for the affirmation which reality "fails" to provide. That's what results when you try to engage an authoritarian on such matters. That's all that results when you try to engage an authoritarian on such matters ... that and your own frustration, which is some of their favorite fuel (pretty easy to imagine how it's transformed in affirmational fuel, I would hope).


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Mar 05, 2017, 09:55AM
I keep hearing Trump fans citing the fact he's not an insider as a key reason for their high regard. But if Trump satisfies that criterion in the relevant context, so would any long term resident of a mental institution. That suggests citing this reason is more about the dearth of socially acceptable, and likely personally acceptable actual reasons. The truth will reveal the true colors of what's going on that's creating this amity, and they're in denial about that as much as they don't want it to be spotted by others. In short reasons that don't really point specifically to Trump are deflections--very likely due to a lack of self-awareness. They're not aware of their actual reasons so they grab something they think sounds good.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 05, 2017, 11:54AM
The day is going to come when POTUS Trump will need to say that someone is doing something and it will be absolutely true and absolutely important that we believe him but it will be too late. 

He will have squandered his credibility on petty personal fantasies, like Obama bugging his office, manufactured to distract from his own failures.


(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17098372_1956057814615132_5004203778094643953_n.png?oh=305af4991a47b79b033912c33aa9d82d&oe=5929D716)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Mar 05, 2017, 12:27PM
That is a very good point. The old case of the boy crying wolf. Who the hell is going to believe anything that comes out of his mouth.

Wait, I know one person who will  :D


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Mar 05, 2017, 12:40PM
I really can't understand it. Whether you're liberal or conservative, the man is an appalling disgrace that makes the US a laughingstock.

2020 US presidential campaign slogan: Make the world take America seriously again.



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Mar 05, 2017, 01:22PM
In case anyone got overly sidetracked by the Russian spy drama, the following bills have been introduced:

1. HR 861 Terminate the Environmental Protection Agency
2. HR 610 Vouchers for Public Education
3. HR 899 Terminate the Department of Education
4. HJR 69 Repeal Rule Protecting Wildlife
5. HR 370 Repeal Affordable Care Act
6. HR 354 Defund Planned Parenthood
7. HR 785 National Right to Work (this one ends unions)
8. HR 83 Mobilizing Against Sanctuary Cities Bill
9. HR 147 Criminalizing Abortion (“Prenatal Nondiscrimination Act”)
10. HR 808 Sanctions against Iran

Call your House Representative and ask them to not only vote "NO"...but to speak up for our rights, health & safety, and our beautiful country.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 05, 2017, 04:21PM
This guy can't seem to pick a side.

Comey Asks Justice Dept. to Reject Trump’s Wiretapping Claim (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/05/us/politics/trump-seeks-inquiry-into-allegations-that-obama-tapped-his-phones.html?action=Click&contentCollection=BreakingNews&contentID=64989981&pgtype=Homepage&smid=tw-nytimes&smtyp=cur)

Quote
WASHINGTON — The F.B.I. director, James B. Comey, asked the Justice Department this weekend to publicly reject President Trump’s assertion that President Barack Obama ordered the tapping of Mr. Trump’s phones, senior American officials said on Sunday.




Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Mar 05, 2017, 04:42PM
I really can't understand it. Whether you're liberal or conservative, the man is an appalling disgrace that makes the US a laughingstock.
Sure, that's easy for you to say ... it's obvious!
 
2020 US presidential campaign slogan: Make the world take America seriously again.
I like it.
 
  :good:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: bhcordova on Mar 05, 2017, 05:11PM


2020 US presidential campaign slogan: Make the world take America seriously again.



You wrongly assume that Our Fearless Leader will allow any more elections. 


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Mar 05, 2017, 05:15PM
You wrongly assume that Our Fearless Leader will allow any more elections. 

That is a sobering thought.  :(


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 05, 2017, 05:15PM
I have a new theory: Someone told Donald the Obama-bugging tale to distract him from the real adult problems, like...

North Korea fires four ballistic missiles into sea near Japan: Abe (https://www.yahoo.com/news/multiple-north-korean-missiles-flew-1-000-km-001140911.html)



You wrongly assume that Our Fearless Leader will allow any more elections. 

Ya know... since the Presidential election is really 51 state-run elections I don't think the President could stop one from happening. Not without being the most popular, persuasive person on the planet and that is not going to be Trump.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Mar 05, 2017, 07:45PM
The day is going to come when POTUS Trump will need to say that someone is doing something and it will be absolutely true and absolutely important that we believe him but it will be too late. 

He will have squandered his credibility on petty personal fantasies, like Obama bugging his office, manufactured to distract from his own failures.


(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17098372_1956057814615132_5004203778094643953_n.png?oh=305af4991a47b79b033912c33aa9d82d&oe=5929D716)

And the POTUS himself as he proudly presents his 'fake reality':

(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/97/99/8e/97998ebf5339eb7e3870fd3e937150ee.jpg)



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: gregs70 on Mar 05, 2017, 07:49PM
1) Trump wants to cut the National Endowment for the Arts. As an amateur musician and fan of the arts in general, this worries me.  It is .003 percent of the federal budget

2) The White House is proposing to slash Environmental Protection Agency funding that pays for Great Lakes pollution cleanup by 97 percent.  Having grown up in Cleveland, I know first hand how polluted the Cuyahoga River and Lake Erie were when I was a kid.  Again, a drop in the bucket of a percent of the national budget.

3) If the Obama administration really had a wiretap on Trump, don't you think enough dirt would have been found and leaked so he lost the election?  


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Mar 05, 2017, 07:58PM
1) Trump wants to cut the National Endowment for the Arts. As an amateur musician and fan of the arts in general, this worries me.  It is .003 percent of the federal budget

2) The White House is proposing to slash Environmental Protection Agency funding that pays for Great Lakes pollution cleanup by 97 percent.  Having grown up in Cleveland, I know first hand how polluted the Cuyahoga River and Lake Erie were when I was a kid.  Again, a drop in the bucket of a percent of the national budget.

3) If the Obama administration really had a wiretap on Trump, don't you think enough dirt would have been found and leaked so he lost the election?  

As a member of an arts organization that gets some government grants (indirectly from NEA) I also am worried about cutting NEA.

I wonder how our Trumparians will feel when the air in Philadelphia and Washington is like Beijing.  That's what will happen if we go whole-hog to Coal fired powerplants and eliminate EPA enforcement.

As you point out, all of these savings are less than the cost of one fancy fighter jet.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Mar 05, 2017, 08:04PM
I know this analogy is a stretch. But if as a head of household I wanted to tighten the belt on our budget to cut spending. So I decide to forgo the new tires that the car so badly needs. Then we all die in a collision that we could have avoided had the new tires been purchased.

That is the way this whole EPA budget slashing approach seems to me. So the country saves some money, but everyone's health suffers as a result.

All the $$ in the world means nothing if quality of life is allowed to fall.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on Mar 06, 2017, 05:29AM
I know this analogy is a stretch. But if as a head of household I wanted to tighten the belt on our budget to cut spending. So I decide to forgo the new tires that the car so badly needs. Then we all die in a collision that we could have avoided had the new tires been purchased.

That is the way this whole EPA budget slashing approach seems to me. So the country saves some money, but everyone's health suffers as a result.

All the $$ in the world means nothing if quality of life is allowed to fall.
To note, changes such as that would at best only provide savings in the short term. Maybe you don't die in the wreck, but what costs more? Tires? Or a fixing the car up after a wreck caused by skimping on the tires? Short answer: before the wreck, the tires. After the wreck, the wreck. And when the wreck is only a matter of time...

Yeah, trump's suggested changes have little to nothing to do with saving money. They are too small. Regardless of how well they work... they could be complete useless handouts... still too small to matter. Instead, they are simply an attempt to follow through with the philosophy of those he sold to in his campaign, and those he needs to get ANYTHING done. And in this case, things like the EPA, his new FCC commissioner who wants to undo treating the internet like a utility, his desire to dismantle dodd frank... this is simply returning the favor of the big spenders who put their money behind him.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 06, 2017, 06:10AM
I know this analogy is a stretch. But if as a head of household I wanted to tighten the belt on our budget to cut spending. So I decide to forgo the new tires that the car so badly needs. Then we all die in a collision that we could have avoided had the new tires been purchased.

That is the way this whole EPA budget slashing approach seems to me. So the country saves some money, but everyone's health suffers as a result.

All the $$ in the world means nothing if quality of life is allowed to fall.

It's more like foregoing new tires on the car of your wife that you're wanting to leave.

It's not really about saving the country some money.  Deregulation is a huge financial plus to the the owners of companies that want the cheapest way out of messes they create.  Dirty water and air won't bother them because they can afford to live where it's still clean.



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Mar 06, 2017, 06:37AM
2) The White House is proposing to slash Environmental Protection Agency funding that pays for Great Lakes pollution cleanup by 97 percent.  Having grown up in Cleveland, I know first hand how polluted the Cuyahoga River and Lake Erie were when I was a kid.  Again, a drop in the bucket of a percent of the national budget.
Wasn't this negotiated under international treaty?  After all, 4 of the great lakes are co-owned by Canada.

He may run into some more legal issues when trying to get this one through:

The Great Lakes Water Quality Agreement: https://www.epa.gov/glwqa (https://www.epa.gov/glwqa)
The Great Lake Charter: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Lakes_Charter (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Lakes_Charter)
The Great Lakes–Saint Lawrence River Basin Sustainable Water Resources Agreement: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Lakes%E2%80%93Saint_Lawrence_River_Basin_Sustainable_Water_Resources_Agreement (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Lakes%E2%80%93Saint_Lawrence_River_Basin_Sustainable_Water_Resources_Agreement)
The Great Lakes Compact: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Lakes_Compact (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Lakes_Compact)

Things like the NEA, and Great Lakes Water Quality are things that were hard fought for over many years.  Now this impudent dickwad is going to try to scuttle them?  Imagine, just  last Thursday I was telling a friend I could not hate Trump more than I did then.  How naive of me.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: vito on Mar 06, 2017, 08:23AM
Impending policy nightmares mentioned above aside...

This latest incident with the wire tap allegation is really over the top. The guy is completely bonkers and needs to removed from his position of authority. Now. It's time for Pence and the cabinet to take action.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 06, 2017, 09:45AM
Impending policy nightmares mentioned above aside...

This latest incident with the wire tap allegation is really over the top. The guy is completely bonkers and needs to removed from his position of authority. Now. It's time for Pence and the cabinet to take action.

He's being fed click-bait conspiracy hoaxes and is unable to distinguish them from real information.

As pundits have noted, the President has the legal authority to declassify and disclose anything. If he has evidence of wire tapping he doesn't need Congress to investigate to reveal it.

His guys control the Justice department now, there's nothing to stop them from revealing any misbehavior of the previous regime, if it happened.



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on Mar 06, 2017, 09:54AM
His guys control the Justice department now, there's nothing to stop them from revealing any misbehavior of the previous regime, if it happened.
That's what initially confused me so much on hearing his accusations...
1) Why would congress investigate it? Doesn't he lead the actual investigative agencies?
2) If a problem, can't he show it or release some data to prove it?
3) He has the power, the agencies, and the intelligence... if he found it to be true... he wouldn't need to ask that it be investigated by others. What the heck? How is this even a question? Either he has the information and can provide it, or there is nothing. Does this man still not realize the basics of what it is to be president?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 06, 2017, 10:09AM
In the business world he could threaten a frivolous lawsuit to disable an opponent, but he's still finding out that frivolous legal accusations don't work the same way.

So far. Corrupt the government long enough and yeah, an accusation from the President will be the same as a conviction. there are countries like that.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Mar 06, 2017, 10:16AM
Well, we do know that Obama wiretapped James Rosen, a Fox News Reporter. Something that you guys probably agreed with.  :evil:

If no wiretapping, then were there really any recordings of Flynn and Sessions with the Russian Ambassador?

The officials said that there was no evidence of any wrong doing on the recordings, so why are the democrats still hanging on to investigations? Clearly, no evidence.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Mar 06, 2017, 10:23AM
I wouldn't be surprised if Flynn was wiretapped.  Not by Obama's order but by the FBI as part of the investigation into Russian influence in the election.  Same goes for Manafort.  Maybe Sessions, but I'm not sure.

Trump specifically claimed that Obama called for the wiretap, which is plainly not true.  The FBI could have, but they claim not to.  We don't know what the Star Chamber (FISA Court) records are -- they are Secret.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Mar 06, 2017, 10:26AM
I think we're being too hard on Trump.
 
He could be a great president with only a few improvements.
 
He just needs to get a lot smarter and a lot better educated in national/international politics and economics, learn how to do what presidents do and at least more or less how it all works, and develop a functional sense of ethics.
 
That's it ...
 
Just three things.
 
He's almost there!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Mar 06, 2017, 10:28AM
I wouldn't be surprised if Flynn was wiretapped.  Not by Obama's order but by the FBI as part of the investigation into Russian influence in the election.  Same goes for Manafort.  Maybe Sessions, but I'm not sure.

Trump specifically claimed that Obama called for the wiretap, which is plainly not true.  The FBI could have, but they claim not to.  We don't know what the Star Chamber (FISA Court) records are -- they are Secret.

He should have said Obama administration. It's his executive department afterall, and the buck stops with him. It would be unlikely that he wasn't aware of it. I'm sure he directs his staff in ways that give him plausible deniability. But, that doesn't dismiss the charge. His operatives were wiretapping a political opponent, and presidential candidate during an election.

Just like with James Rosen, the IRS going after political opponents. The list is staggering of Obama's administration abuse of its citizens.


 


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: mwpfoot on Mar 06, 2017, 10:29AM
He should have said

 :rolleyes:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Mar 06, 2017, 10:30AM
I think we're being too hard on Trump.
 
He could be a great president with only a few improvements.
 
He just needs to get a lot smarter and a lot better educated in national/international politics and economics, learn how to do what presidents do and at least more or less how it all works, and develop a functional sense of ethics.
 
That's it ...
 
Just three things.
 
He's almost there!

I think that's five :/

And it requires some serious reorientation :evil:  Can a leopard change his spots?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: growlerbox on Mar 06, 2017, 10:32AM
Well, we do know that Obama wiretapped James Rosen, a Fox News Reporter. Something that you guys probably agreed with.  :evil:

If no wiretapping, then were there really any recordings of Flynn and Sessions with the Russian Ambassador?

The officials said that there was no evidence of any wrong doing on the recordings, so why are the democrats still hanging on to investigations? Clearly, no evidence.

Is this stuff not kind of what the NSA is for?  "Wiretapping" is so noughties.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 06, 2017, 10:44AM
He should have said Obama administration. It's his executive department afterall, and the buck stops with him....

 

It's trump's Executive now. Obama can't hide it now. Trump says he was shown evidence... let's see it. Either he has it or he doesn't.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on Mar 06, 2017, 10:52AM
If no wiretapping, then were there really any recordings of Flynn and Sessions with the Russian Ambassador?
Well, yes, for any conversations that happened over the phone. Because they tapped the russian ambassador. That's kinda how FISA warrants work...

There is a major difference between dems in congress and the president... such things include: power to investigate, oversight of the investigators, ability to see ALL information, ability of direct power over those who hold the information, and ability to declassify information readily to share it...

ie - trump has a great deal of power in this area, where the dems have none. That trump is then asking congress to investigate his own administration is laughable. The man needs a boogy man to point to, because when they look to him... even trump doesn't like what they see. Like putting wanted posters over all of the mirrors to keep him from having to look at what an inept boob he is...


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Mar 06, 2017, 10:54AM
Trump says he was shown evidence... let's see it. Either he has it or he doesn't.
He misplaced it with his tax returns.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Posaunus on Mar 06, 2017, 11:09AM
Breaking news:
President Trump has just tweeted that there is a huuge monkey on the loose in New York City, terrorizing Manhattan, and even climbing the Empire State Building and the Trump Tower - apparently a dirty trick initiated by the lying Kenyan, former President Obama.  Trump has called out the National Guard to defend his property, and is insisting on a Congressional investigation. 
In spite of the lack of independent observations of the monkey, and denials from the dishonest media, he knows it’s true - he heard it on Breitbard! 
 :evil:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Mar 06, 2017, 11:15AM
The wiretaps (or whatever method) that the NSA turned up were on the Russians, not on the campaign. We haven't heard them or seen the transcripts, but in many cases they take pains not to intercept the US citizen's side of the conversation. The topic of the conversation would be plain from the Russian side alone.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Mar 06, 2017, 11:22AM
To my knowledge, James Rosen's phones were't wiretapped.  Correct me if I'm wrong about that. The evidence that was sought was phone records after the fact, showing the timing and placement of calls and emails. It was pursuant to an espionage case that resulted in several convictions of gov't employees with security clearance for disclosing classified information.

DD, I'm not sure who 'you guys' are that you keep referring to, but for my part I think the administration overstepped its bounds, because it was an excessive interference with the press. It's a tough call to balance genuine national security concerns with protecting reporters, and I think they landed on the wrong side of it.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: bhcordova on Mar 06, 2017, 12:46PM
Well, we do know that Obama wiretapped James Rosen, a Fox News Reporter. Something that you guys probably agreed with.  :evil:

If no wiretapping, then were there really any recordings of Flynn and Sessions with the Russian Ambassador?

The officials said that there was no evidence of any wrong doing on the recordings, so why are the democrats still hanging on to investigations? Clearly, no evidence.

Can you say 'BENGHAZI'?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Mar 06, 2017, 02:03PM
:rolleyes:

Understand that doesn't change the dynamics of what really happened. The liberals are focusing just on that and ignoring the real story. if we were dealing with people that are more honest, then it wouldn't have mattered either way.

The story is same. Substance of the story is what counts.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Mar 06, 2017, 02:07PM
Understand that doesn't change the dynamics of what really happened. The liberals are focusing just on that and ignoring the real story. if we were dealing with people that are more honest, then it wouldn't have mattered either way.

The story is same. Substance of the story is what counts.

What is the "real story"?  That Trump's phone got tapped?  That somebody else's office in Trump Tower got tapped?

If it's the FBI, Trump has the power to simply demand they "fess up".  All he has to do is to ask.

If it's somebody else, let's see some evidence that he was tapped.  I wouldn't be surprised if it was the Russians or the North Koreans.  Or maybe it was the 3,000,000 aliens who voted for Clinton :razz:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: mwpfoot on Mar 06, 2017, 04:30PM
Understand that doesn't change the dynamics of what really happened. The liberals are focusing just on that and ignoring the real story. if we were dealing with people that are more honest, then it wouldn't have mattered either way.

The story is same. Substance of the story is what counts.

You have an Obama fixation and Trump's team knows it.

And now they are stroking you like a fiddle.

 :idea:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 06, 2017, 05:31PM
ya know... right now there's no evidence that Trump's phone was tapped by ANYBODY... federal, state, local, foreign, business competitor...  nothing.

You'd at least need that before you say someone has tapped your phone.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Mar 06, 2017, 06:22PM
You have an Obama fixation and Trump's team knows it.

And now they are stroking you like a fiddle.

 :idea:

Amazing. DD bringing up 'truth'


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on Mar 06, 2017, 06:47PM
To be clear... Trump did not come forth with this "revelation" after a security briefing. Just look at the timeline:

Friday: Trump says sessions is just fine, sessions recuses himself. Trump gets moody. He goes on vacation away from the job and the family for the weekend. (again)
Saturday: He's still irritated, but in Palm Beach, FL. His moment in the sun after the speech has been greatly overshadowed by sessions and the russians, and trump really really wants that story to simply die. He reads Brietbart... sees the fake story about wiretaps... and sends a gut tweet.

To be clear, just following that twitter tirade against Obama mysteriously wiretapping him... Trump went on to say:
"Arnold Schwarzenegger isn't voluntarily leaving the Apprentice, he was fired by his bad (pathetic) ratings, not by me. Sad end to great show"
and
"Is it true the DNC would not allow the FBI access to check server or other equipment after learning it was hacked? Can that be possible?"

He was reading the frickin' news sites or watching the news... nothing more.

Later on in the day he again lashed out against Obama (as if obama was still the president, wouldn't that be nice) saying "Who was it that secretly said to Russian President, "Tell Vladimir that after the election I'll have more flexibility?""
and then
"Thank you for the great rallies all across the country. Tremendous support. Make America Great Again!"
because he's still in campaign mode, and hasn't realized that his crap actually matters now...


The saddest part of this entire story, is the man with the single greatest access to intelligence in the country is fixated on simply listening to news he wants to hear by way of casual sites with a poor track record of making up a story.

Well, that, and that our new president has a major impulse control problem.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Mar 06, 2017, 06:49PM
Amazing. DD bringing up 'truth'

Not at all--it's important to believe that when you're deceiving yourself, and for those most talented at deceiving themselves all they really need is a label. That's why simple bumper sticker rhetoric and labeling are so effective with the Alt-Right/Alternative Facts™ Crüe, and that's why all they tend to offer are labels and bumper sticker level "rhetoric", and it's why they often misuse those labels and misapply that bumper sticker rhetoric. It's also why there's no point in trying to actually have anything like an honest discussion with them--they don't have the tools.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: elmsandr on Mar 06, 2017, 06:58PM
Understand that doesn't change the dynamics of what really happened. The liberals are focusing just on that and ignoring the real story. if we were dealing with people that are more honest, then it wouldn't have mattered either way.

The story is same. Substance of the story is what counts.
Because there is no real story? It is a sad fantasy to keep fools entertained.

Looks like it is working, too.
Andy


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Mar 06, 2017, 06:59PM
if we were dealing with people that are more honest, then it wouldn't have mattered either way.

You are dealing with honest people. The reverse is not normally true.

By the way, did you ever find that post you claimed I plagiarized?

Must be another example of your 'honesty', like the James Rosen wiretap.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: timothy42b on Mar 06, 2017, 07:01PM

The story is same. Substance of the story is what counts.

The other side is that if there really were a FISA warrant, that would require some evidence of criminal activity.  

And if there were some criminal activity going on..................

Did anybody watch the congressional hearings about the IRS "targeting?"  I watched a good bit of it on CSPAN with fascination, wondering when they were going to ask the $50 question:  were any of those targeted guilty?

That's the one question that was forbidden.  


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Mar 06, 2017, 07:52PM
The other side ...

The Real Issue™ here is that he doesn't understand substance. To an Alt-Right/Alternative Facts™ type "substance" = "what I like to hear" and that's really all there is to it. Labels like "substance" as used in this case are substitutes for understanding and actual consideration. There's no real connection between what the term actually means and reality--it's just a positive term so they're satisfied that if they attach the label, whatever they attached it to is also positive, even if they don't understand what the term is actually about (as in the inverse case and the term "sycophant" a while back).


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Mar 06, 2017, 08:07PM
Trump keeps painting himself into a corner.

If the Flynn stories were 'fake news', why is he looking for leaks? The new thing is the same--it's bad for him no matter what.

If a warrant was issued, that's evidence of suspicion of criminality. If he's making it up, he's a liar. He's acting as though he's Joe Blow watching Fox and Friends, but he's technically President of the United States. He has more control over this process than anyone in the world. If he's making the thing up and destabilizing his own government, just for short-term political benefit, he's a terrible president.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 06, 2017, 08:10PM
It's like a Goofus and Gallant (http://the-toast.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/Goofus.jpg) story...

Quote
...during his first few weeks in office, Obama steadfastly refused to investigate Bush’s authorization of torture, even under immense pressure from his base, while Trump called for a congressional investigation of Obama apparently based on a Breitbart article.

Obama Has A Bite-Your-Tongue Policy On Trump. It’s Proving Harder To Keep. (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/obama-trump-engagement_us_58bde6fde4b0d8c45f45f782?t6dr807qn43kawcdi&)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 06, 2017, 08:12PM
If he's making the thing up and destabilizing his own government, just for short-term political benefit, he's a terrible president.

He's not even getting short-term political benefit out of it.  It seems like it's just fleeting personal ego gratification. Even our terrible Presidents operated on a higher level than that.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Mar 06, 2017, 10:12PM
Thanks for the Goofus and Gallant ref! That's a touchstone for my little sister and me.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Mar 06, 2017, 10:26PM
The liberals are focusing just on that and ignoring the real story.
So, how does that make you feel?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Mar 07, 2017, 12:53AM
I can't be the first person to think of this:

Trump compared the pretend wiretaps to 'McCarthyism', which is apparently just about as bad as you can get, right?

The problem is that one of his mentors was Roy Cohn.

Never mind. Googled it, and everyone already thought of it. The internet ruins everything. It's still funny, though.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 07, 2017, 06:45AM
Republican Senators agree, Obama more credible than Trump...

McCain: We Shouldn't Probe Trump Wiretap Claim Unless There's 'A Basis' (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/mccain-trump-obama-wiretap-probe)

Quote
Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) told reporters on Monday evening that Congress should not launch a probe into President Donald Trump's unsubstantiated claim that President Obama wiretapped his campaign unless there's reason to believe that the accusation may be true.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: bhcordova on Mar 07, 2017, 08:00AM
But, he's Pro-Life (he said so) and he's not Hillary!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on Mar 07, 2017, 07:46PM
But, he's Pro-Life (he said so) and he's not Hillary!

Hillary would be the worst... if for no other reason, it would be hillary! Oh god! That would be the worst!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on Mar 08, 2017, 04:37AM
Something that has flown under the radar, or rather, is a small blip on the radar that no one has paid attention to for the independence day sized space ships also appearing...

Trump is expected to try to roll back fuel standards to help his buddies in business.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/08/opinion/dont-roll-back-the-vehicle-fuel-standards.html


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 08, 2017, 06:32AM
Listen to this guy talk for a few minutes.  This "former FBI assistant director" (back in the 90s) who claims to be advising Trump, glibly reels off yards of unsupported accusations of "criminal" activity by the Democratics.

This is likely an example of the sort of person making up that "right-wing" cabal in the FBI we hear about. An addled old man who is determined to believe the most preposterous lies and help spread them.

http://finance.yahoo.com/video/fmr-fbi-asst-director-wiretap-165708894.html (http://finance.yahoo.com/video/fmr-fbi-asst-director-wiretap-165708894.html)


This is the guy who was making the rounds in October insisting that "something big" was about to happen in "the Clinton investigation"


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: gregs70 on Mar 08, 2017, 08:01PM
It wasn't a wiretap, it was a baby monitor  :good:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 08, 2017, 08:18PM
Obama Admits to Wiretapping Trump:

https://www.youtube.com/v/2LcP4R9_QkA


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Mar 08, 2017, 08:22PM
Be careful.  The Trumpanzees (thanks, BvB) may actually believe this. :razz:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Mar 08, 2017, 08:31PM
Alex Jones (and some forum members) would probably run with that


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Mar 08, 2017, 08:45PM
Obama Admits to Wiretapping Trump:

https://www.youtube.com/v/2LcP4R9_QkA
Thanks Robert, that topped of a long and arduous day.  Hilarious!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Mar 09, 2017, 05:29AM
Be careful.  The Trumpanzees (thanks, BvB) may actually believe this. :razz:

That's Russ'. I prefer Trumpistanians because it's more accurate and descriptive (though for many Trumpistanians Trumpanzee is a good description of their applied intellectual prowess), and the kindred spirit between Middle Eastern Islamic fundamentalism and the radical religious right element of Trumpistan is pretty definitive. I prefer to describe accurately if in unflattering terms rather than to just mock--when accuracy mocks it takes a far deeper bite. There's definitely some utility in mockery for correcting sorry behavior in any case, but much less so with egocentrism, and Trumpistanians are typically extremely egocentric.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Mar 09, 2017, 06:53AM
And you people complain about my use of the terms "liberal/leftists/demos". LOL!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Mar 09, 2017, 07:05AM
And you people complain about my use of the terms "liberal/leftists/demos". LOL!

You seem to defend Trump so you get lumped in with the Trumpistanians.  Meanwhile, a lot of what you call Liberals and Lefties really aren't.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Mar 09, 2017, 07:21AM
You seem to defend Trump so you get lumped in with the Trumpistanians.  Meanwhile, a lot of what you call Liberals and Lefties really aren't.

Sure.  &gt;:(


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Mar 09, 2017, 07:29AM
Maybe some of the far right Trump supporters here are so far to the right that even right leaning moderates appear to be "liberal/leftists/demos".  Maybe their necks are so red from directly bathing in that special brand of 'sunlight' pouring from Trumps *SS, that it's too painful to turn their gaze toward their left to take in the details.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: elmsandr on Mar 09, 2017, 07:51AM
Maybe some of the far right Trump supporters here are so far to the right that even right leaning moderates appear to be "liberal/leftists/demos".  Maybe their necks are so red from directly bathing in that special brand of 'sunlight' pouring from Trumps *SS, that it's too painful to turn their gaze toward their left to take in the details.
Watch out, I hear that we are going to investigate taxing the sun.

No really, this was the level of discourse in Congress.

Cheers,
Andy


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Mar 09, 2017, 08:20AM
Sure.  &gt;:(

Fair to say there's not much room, maybe none, to DD's right?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Mar 09, 2017, 09:18AM
I think to DD's right is Attila the Hun. :razz:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Mar 09, 2017, 09:30AM
So far right, he is wrong


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 09, 2017, 10:41AM
In case anyone is unaware... there are numerous amusing anagrams to be derived from "Donald Trump" (http://wordsmith.org/anagram/anagram.cgi?anagram=donald+trump&t=1000&a=n)

My favorite is "Lord Dampnut" but "Damn Turd Pol" is insightful.


The same site doesn't get as much out of "Barack Obama" (http://wordsmith.org/anagram/anagram.cgi?anagram=barack+obama&t=1000&a=n) but "Arab cab amok" isn't bad.



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Mar 09, 2017, 11:05AM
And you people complain about my use of the terms "liberal/leftists/demos". LOL!

Again, it's 'you people'. If BvB makes up funny names for Trump supporters, and I complain about your continual invocation of 'leftist liberals' as a substitute for any sort of thought or argument, that's not inconsistent or hypocritical, because we're not the same person.

The 'you guys' trope detracts from the clarity of thinking. I use it occasionally in a satirical manner.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Mar 09, 2017, 12:54PM
Again, it's 'you people'. If BvB makes up funny names for Trump supporters, and I complain about your continual invocation of 'leftist liberals' as a substitute for any sort of thought or argument, that's not inconsistent or hypocritical, because we're not the same person.

The 'you guys' trope detracts from the clarity of thinking. I use it occasionally in a satirical manner.

Never short for excuses. LOL!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Mar 09, 2017, 03:55PM
Never short for excuses. LOL!

It's not an excuse--I use the expression as a parody of your writing, specifically. As in, You guys are a nasty, ignorant, incurious, lying idiot. LOL!

The point is, if 'you guys' pretend everyone who disagrees with you guys is the same person, you guys can pretend they're inconsistent. You guys pretend a lot of things, because you guys are not an honest person.

Speaking of dishonesty, did you guys ever find my post that you guys claimed I plagiarized? Being caught in back-to-back posts as a plagiarist and then as a liar would bother most people, but you guys aren't even honest enough to feel bad when you guys lie.. Rather than continue to embarrass yourself, maybe you guys could link to my post that you guys were referring to, or admit that you guys are a big fat liar. Not too hard, either way, you guys.

While you're at it, you guys could find the link showing that Obama wiretapped James Rosen's phone, unless you guys don't care if everyone knows you guys are a liar. LOL!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Mar 09, 2017, 04:20PM
Again, it's 'you people'. If BvB makes up funny names for Trump supporters, and I complain about your continual invocation of 'leftist liberals' as a substitute for any sort of thought or argument, that's not inconsistent or hypocritical, because we're not the same person.
 
The 'you guys' trope detracts from the clarity of thinking. I use it occasionally in a satirical manner.

It's not fair to expect someone who clearly doesn't even understand his or her own views to make any real show of taking on any other actual views, much less so more than one. You've got to work with the tools you've got.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 09, 2017, 05:55PM
In news today... President Trump's original pick for National Security Advisor has filed paperwork admitting he was, in fact, a foreign agent.

White House: Trump unaware of Flynn's foreign agent work (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/trump-aide-flynn-lobbying-helped-turkey-46011946)


So, extreme vetting for someone who wants to come over to see the Grand Canyon but not so much vetting for people in the Trump administration.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 09, 2017, 11:33PM
And by "unaware" they meant they were unaware anyone would remember they were aware...

White House Demonstrably Lying About Flynn (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/white-house-demonstrably-lying-about-flynn)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on Mar 10, 2017, 04:08AM
Odd note:

Trump's popularity is still poor...
http://www.gallup.com/poll/201617/gallup-daily-trump-job-approval.aspx

and yet... if you scroll down to the bottom of this one,
http://www.gallup.com/poll/203198/presidential-approval-ratings-donald-trump.aspx
the GOP opinion has consistently held around 88%


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Mar 10, 2017, 08:05AM
So, extreme vetting for someone who wants to come over to see the Grand Canyon but not so much vetting for people in the Trump administration.

I think the cliffs of the Grand Canyon would be a good destination for terrorists.  :evil:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Mar 10, 2017, 08:26AM
I think the cliffs of the Grand Canyon would be a good destination for terrorists.  :evil:

Actually, I think DD's house is a good destination for terrorists :evil: :evil: :evil:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Mar 10, 2017, 08:51AM
Odd note:

Trump's popularity is still poor...
http://www.gallup.com/poll/201617/gallup-daily-trump-job-approval.aspx

and yet... if you scroll down to the bottom of this one,
http://www.gallup.com/poll/203198/presidential-approval-ratings-donald-trump.aspx
the GOP opinion has consistently held around 88%

Doesn't surprise me that people who elected this buffoon are too proud to admit that they screwed up. They'll go to the grave without doing so. Pride is not a pretty thing.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on Mar 10, 2017, 09:02AM
I think the cliffs of the Grand Canyon would be a good destination for terrorists.  :evil:

YEah, for terrorists, it would be. But, 99.99999999999999999.......% of the refugees fleeing the atrocity that is the Middle East these days are not terrorists. This is a prime example of how ugly the mentality of the basic conservative in this country is today.  It is possible there are a miniscule number of radicalized individuals attempting to hide amongst them (although reality to date shows current vetting processes have been adequate to exclude them), but the basic conservative in AMerica today is incapable of making the distinction. One of the more disgusting MEMEs I have seen shows a nest of rattlesnakes with the caption, "Can you tell which snake is the one that will bite you?" IT proves the conservative mindset is centered in and controlled by hatred and fear. A more accurate MEME would show a pile of earthworms and the caption would read, "Which one of these earthworms is really a poisonous snake you are not smart enough to recognize?" We, as a country, are turning our backs on fellow human beings who have been horribly abused and uprooted from their homes through no fault of their own. It is REALLY hard to be proud to be an AMerican these days.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Mar 10, 2017, 09:11AM
Russ, I couldn't agree more. Where in the hateful and divisive rhetoric of the so called family values/Christian party are Christ's teachings of love thy neighbor?

Nowhere. The disconnect disgusts me to no end.

A girl I grew up who still attends the CofC church I went to has no problem with innocents dying in the middle east because of the wars and invasions because 'they aren't Christian'   :(

And when health care is brought up, she has hers (she works for FEMA, so she is basically on the government teat). I asked her about the low income folks and their health needs. She didn't care. She has her needs covered just fine. So, basically screw the less fortunate. I got the idea that she thinks that poor people just don't work hard enough to afford good insurance, so it is on them.

That is not the brand of Christianity I was taught.

Sad


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: MoominDave on Mar 10, 2017, 09:41AM
IT proves the conservative mindset is centered in and controlled by hatred and fear.

It seems to me in general that what leads people to vote for inward-looking and authoritarian options is an abiding sense of insecurity. Trump got in because lots of people feel rattled right now. Brexit happened because ditto. Repeat and rinse across various other countries.

Of course, the irony is that the right-wing authoritarians having power handed to them on a platter will only make people feel more insecure, by stirring up division. This is how they operate. History shows us very clearly, over and over again.

Note that I am not saying that there is never a time for right-wing economic tied with authoritarian social policies to be rational for the majority. But I can't think of many (if any) times when this actually unarguably came true.

To reduce to bumper-sticker slogans:
Voting right = being afraid
Voting left = being hopeful

To me, this illustrates the basic difference that draws people one way or the other. Are you in thrall to your worries or not?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Mar 10, 2017, 09:58AM
To reduce to bumper-sticker slogans:
Voting right = being afraid
Voting left = being hopeful

I'd make the second entry:
Voting Left = rejecting/correcting irrational fear


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Mar 10, 2017, 10:00AM
...

A girl I grew up who still attends the CofC church I went to has no problem with innocents dying in the middle east because of the wars and invasions because 'they aren't Christian'   :(

...

That is not the brand of Christianity I was taught.

Sad

Those Christians will cite ISIS as the prototypical Muslims saying anybody who isn't Muslim doesn't count either.

It's an attitude that should have died out 500 years ago.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Mar 10, 2017, 10:05AM
Those Christians will cite ISIS as the prototypical Muslims saying anybody who isn't Muslim doesn't count either.

It's an attitude that should have died out 500 years ago.

Ironic isn't it?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Mar 10, 2017, 02:40PM
YEah, for terrorists, it would be. But, 99.99999999999999999.......% of the refugees fleeing the atrocity that is the Middle East these days are not terrorists.

Without proper vetting, you can't tell. Trump wants a travel ban to allow us to do the proper vetting, but you guys don't want proper vetting, so off to the cliffs they go.  :evil:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Mar 10, 2017, 02:47PM
Without proper vetting, you can't tell. Trump wants a travel ban to allow us to do the proper vetting, but you guys don't want proper vetting, so off to the cliffs they go.  :evil:

So you are asserting that the 8 year old kid and the 60 year old grandmother are terrorists? 

There are also doctors, lawyers, and Engineers who are looking for asylum.

Most of these people didn't want to leave Syria (or Iraq or Somalia or Afghanistan) but they lost their ability to make a living or care for their children.  Or maybe feared for their lives.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Mar 10, 2017, 02:52PM
Without proper vetting, you can't tell. Trump wants a travel ban to allow us to do the proper vetting, but you guys don't want proper vetting, so off to the cliffs they go.  :evil:

We've always had vetting for people from volatile areas. As was amply pointed out, Obama slowed down immigration from areas where vetting became critical. The assumption that we don't properly vet Syrian and other refugees is not borne out by facts.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 10, 2017, 03:22PM
I think what's missing is any explanation of what the vetting is going to be that it isn't now.

I bet that when it comes out in 90 days (?) there's going to be a lot of "Obama was already doing that" stories.

(And why does it take 90 days? He campaigned on it.  He's got all the immigration experts he needs to craft the new procedures. They've had more than 90 days now since the election.  They knew they were going to do this.  Why aren't they ready with something now?)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Mar 10, 2017, 03:34PM
The blatantly self-serving pattern of applying extreme credulity in one case, and extreme incredulity in the next is one of the examples of intellectual dishonesty that amounts to lying. The fact such a subject lies to himself first doesn't erase the lie, nor does it make presenting the same lie to others somehow not lying. The fact such a subject likely doesn't understand lying, deception or certainly honesty very well doesn't somehow negate the dishonest thinking or behavior either.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on Mar 11, 2017, 05:15AM
IT would be infinitely amusing, if it weren't so blatantly hypocritical, to watch as the Drumpf administration continues to squawk about extreme vetting for refugees when they didn't bother to vet Flynn well enough to know he was an agent of a foreign country.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Mar 11, 2017, 11:15AM
It's also kind of funny that the Trump book on Obama was that he was careless with vetting, and wasn't keeping the country safe, which wasn't true.

Then when everyone turned against the Muslim ban, the argument switched to "Obama did the same thing", which isn't true, and also is precisely the opposite argument. Trump supporters (like Trump himself) say things primarily for effect, without regard for veracity or even for making consistent sense.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Mar 11, 2017, 12:37PM
It's also kind of funny that the Trump book on Obama was that he was careless with vetting, and wasn't keeping the country safe, which wasn't true.
 
Then when everyone turned against the Muslim ban, the argument switched to "Obama did the same thing", which isn't true, and also is precisely the opposite argument. Trump supporters (like Trump himself) say things primarily for effect, without regard for veracity or even for making consistent sense.

This is the way it is when you're dealing with people who are sufficiently disinclined to recognize things they don't want to see (who are sufficiently intellectually cowardly) that they can "miss" things your average 9 year old can easily spot. When you're dealing with people fundamentally dishonest enough that they reflexively lie to themselves as a matter of course, you're not going to have any effect on their thinking by explaining the obvious so that your average 9 year old can easily understand it. They don't care what's real and true, only what they want to think and believe--their dogma. It's pointless to appeal to such people with reason and evidence and such, or to attempt anything like genuine discussion with them regarding any topic in which they're invested, and of course all the more so when their investment is contrary to what's real and true. Reason and evidence and such simply make no purchase/gain no foothold in their minds. They're just not interested--truly apathetic toward matters of actual veracity, only in personal dogma.
 
What we need to learn is how to avoid giving them a voice by giving them undue attention, thereby increasing their influence. We need to figure this out and detoxify our societies--our communities--our national and international social climates ... and our forum social climates.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 11, 2017, 02:38PM
You've probably heard of the new round of US attorney dismissals.

It IS completely customary and almost traditional to ask the previous President's US Attorney appointees to resign. Clinton did it, Bush did it, Obama did it.

It is also normal to ask some to stay on and normal to tell all of them early on whether they are staying or going.


How To Understand Trump's US Attorney Firings (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/how-to-understand-trump-s-us-attorney-firings)

Among the unusual elements this time around is that Trump personally told Manhattan US Attorney Preet Bharara that he would stay and then, suddenly with no explanation, fired him and had given no guidance either way to about half the US Attorneys around country who are only now getting their dismissal notice.

So what changed, particularly in Bharara's case?

Until I read this article, I was unaware that Bharara had an investigation of FOX News going on and possibly one of the Trump organization.





Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Mar 11, 2017, 02:57PM
Covering his a**. T is such a slime ball.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 12, 2017, 07:20PM
Surprise...

After Pledging to Donate Salary, Trump Declines to Release Proof (http://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/after-pledging-donate-salary-trump-declines-release-proof-n732466)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Mar 12, 2017, 07:32PM
To be fair, the current status is "we don't know" and the law states he has to accept the salary.

But I wouldn't be surprised in the least if he decided to keep the money (and his family keeps all the profits from the Trump Hotel hosting various dignitaries).


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Mar 12, 2017, 07:37PM
Quote
Without proper vetting, you can't tell. Trump wants a travel ban to allow us to do the proper vetting, but you guys don't want proper vetting, so off to the cliffs they go.  :evil:

Who, exactly, are the 'you guys' who want terrorists to come into the country without proper vetting? This is another example of you saying something that you yourself can't possibly believe. Why say something that you know is untrue? Why pretend to believe something that you do not?

The objections to the travel ban aren't due to people not wanting to properly vet refugees, which has happened all along, but due to the desire to have it carried forward intelligently and in the national interest rather than Trump's political or business interests.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 12, 2017, 08:10PM
To be fair, the current status is "we don't know" and the law states he has to accept the salary.

But I wouldn't be surprised in the least if he decided to keep the money (and his family keeps all the profits from the Trump Hotel hosting various dignitaries).

I would think an explicitly made pledge like that ought to be easy to document the fulfillment of, if it was indeed kept. You can't give away that much money without a paper trail.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Mar 13, 2017, 05:56AM
To be fair, the current status is "we don't know" and the law states he has to accept the salary.
That's not new information though--The Plan (stated directly I believe--could be mistaken, which I note is what "believe" means in this usage, which makes "believe" a term that's used for very directly contradictory meanings, which isn't an accident) ... anyway, as I was saying; The Plan was to donate it right back to the treasury.
 
But I wouldn't be surprised in the least if he decided to keep the money (and his family keeps all the profits from the Trump Hotel hosting various dignitaries).
No one who isn't in deep denial about his plainly demonstrated character would be surprised, but it's also too early to say. It's not like his version of his promised transparency (IINM) is transparent in the slightest. In fact it's pretty much the opposite. Well, no, it's just precisely the opposite, unqualified. Trump clearly meant "transparent" in the completely opaque sense of transparency (technically speaking opaque is a state of transparency after all--and if that makes sense to you as an actual apologetic for The Donald's "transparent" executive behavior, then you're most likely a Trumpistanian--which gives me a topic idear).
 
It's just like a lot of the terms he uses to sell himself--he's a true disciple of 1984 (the movie of course). Sure, that's just politics, but The Donald takes this unethical behavior (and a lot of other unethical--and dishonorable, deceptive, dishonest ... deplorable) behavior to new heights, leaving the rest of the field well behind the point at which his dust has long settled (Trumpistanians may have difficulty parsing the full implications of that point ... well, or just that point, period).
 
At any rate, it wouldn't be at all surprising if he just hasn't bothered to let anyone know (establishing that sort of potential as likely serves secrecy--i.e. Trumpist transparency--particularly well).
 
 --
 
Note:
I suggest using Trumpist as a synonym for Orwellian in a political and/or nationalistic and/or populist context.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 13, 2017, 11:26AM
Update on the salary.  It will be donated "at the end of the year."


Trump Wants Press Corps To Decide Who Will Receive His Donated Salary (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/trump-wants-press-corps-decide-recipient-salary-donation)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Mar 13, 2017, 11:44AM
I think he should donate it to the Reverend Ike :evil:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Mar 13, 2017, 12:27PM
Update on the salary.  It will be donated "at the end of the year."

Trump Wants Press Corps To Decide Who Will Receive His Donated Salary (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/trump-wants-press-corps-decide-recipient-salary-donation)

Wait for it ... wait for it ...
 
Someone's going to think that's a refutation of my point above, and of anyone else who stated they wouldn't be surprised if Trump decided to keep the money, because some function as if they're desperate for affirmation and have to stretch reality (and honesty) in order to create it whenever something looks close enough (at least to them).


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Mar 13, 2017, 12:58PM
The salary issue means little. The two reasons for him promising to forgo his salary would have been to save taxpayers money or to prove that he wasn't president for the money.

Neither of those is valid.

With respect to taxpayer costs, he's likely to be the most expensive president in history. Not only do we have to secure his constant golf trips and the Trump Tower (assuming that NYC doesn't get stuck with the whole bill) but we have to provide security for his family's business trips abroad. The salary is a drop in the bucket, tax-wise.

On the second point, there's never been a president more likely to profit while in office. After blowing through his inheritance (and then some) mismanaging businesses, he gave up on management and development and got into licensing. His licensing business lost value when his name became a liability (partly because people are increasingly embarrassed to live in Trump-branded properties, partly because of security risks). The Trump organization began licensing properties under 'Scion' instead of 'Trump'. His Washington hotel was looking bad, with low occupancy rates and with the celebrity chef backing out. His golf courses were losing money or making very little, based on property tax records, and likewise the Trump Tower. It's entirely possible he was headed back to ruin.

Now he can charge double rates for membership in Mar-a-Lago. The first four applicants at Mar-a-Lago make up for the president's salary, based just on the margin (never mind the increased demand from people buying access). The hotel might have become a graveyard but has now been a way to provide "emoluments" (to put it as kindly as possible) to the new president. If you're arranging a meeting with the executive branch with any stakes involved, you probably want to be staying at his hotel.

The Chinese fast-tracked a decision to grant Trump new IP rights in China. The Trump Tower is now solidly solvent because it can rent to the Secret Service (has he volunteered to donate that income?)

As I said, the salary is a drop in the bucket. It's a joke, but one that his followers will swallow.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: bhcordova on Mar 14, 2017, 07:46AM
But, he's pro-life! (He said so!) And, he's not Hillary!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Mar 14, 2017, 08:20AM
The salary issue means little. The two reasons for him promising to forgo his salary would have been to save taxpayers money or to prove that he wasn't president for the money.

...

Well, if he wan't in it for the money, he was in it for the power trip.  That scares me even more :eek:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: bhcordova on Mar 14, 2017, 09:13AM
He's in it for the money.  I'm sure his people are trying to figure out how to milk the most out of the U.S. government and have already figured out how to make the position be lucrative for his companies.  But, he's pro-life.  And he's not Hillary!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 14, 2017, 10:45AM
I think he's in it for the ratings.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on Mar 14, 2017, 10:46AM
He'a in it for all of the above. It's the money laundering for the oligarchs that is eventually going to be his downfall.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: gregs70 on Mar 14, 2017, 08:16PM
Update on the salary.  It will be donated "at the end of the year."


Trump Wants Press Corps To Decide Who Will Receive His Donated Salary (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/trump-wants-press-corps-decide-recipient-salary-donation)

He said he would release his tax returns.  He said nobody knew health care reform was so complicated. He said Obama wiretapped his office.  He said multiple times he thought Obama should be working and not play golf.  He said he would not take vacations.  He said...


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: bhcordova on Mar 14, 2017, 09:15PM
But, he's pro-life.  And, he's not Hillary.  What do  you not understand about that?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on Mar 14, 2017, 09:23PM
But, he's pro-life.  And, he's not Hillary.  What do  you not understand about that?

You people are so ungrateful. We saved you from Hillary. What more do you want? You guys are going to make Trump mad and he is going to let Obamacare implode on the vine. Then what you gonna do?

And besides, Trump is pro-life and definitely not Hillary. Otherwise, we would be saying "God save the Queen".  :cool:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Mar 14, 2017, 09:29PM
But, he's pro-life.  And, he's not Hillary.  What do  you not understand about that?
I get it Billy - those are important considerations.  Especially not being Hillary.  From the redneck perspective (do their views actually warrant being called a 'perspective'?  Do amoebas have a 'perspective'?) not being Hillary works on enough levels that it is a necessary and sufficient condition.  That he is pro-life (now and then...it depends :dontknow:), well ... that's just the gravy.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Mar 14, 2017, 09:31PM
You guys are going to make Trump mad and he is going to let Obamacare implode on the vine. Then what you gonna do?
Hey, let's see how that works out.

Aaaannnd.. with any luck it will.

The number of prominent republicans standing up and pissing on TrumpCare are growing by the minute.  Let's see this one pass...


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Mar 14, 2017, 09:37PM
You people..
We, the people, don't like Drumpf.  As the Brits say, he's just a twat.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Mar 14, 2017, 10:21PM
I don't think anyone is well-served by the healthcare plans crashing and burning. What is needed is a system that provides affordable coverage. The VA system seems to function reasonably well.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on Mar 15, 2017, 02:43AM
He said he would release his tax returns.  He said nobody knew health care reform was so complicated. He said Obama wiretapped his office.  He said multiple times he thought Obama should be working and not play golf.  He said he would not take vacations.  He said...

Well, his 2005 returns were just released for him....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eB-xjDMGdQ

To note, 33 of the 38 million that he paid that year were due to the AMT... something trump wants to eliminate. Which would have changed his tax rate from 25% to 3%.

Such a supporter of the "little guy"... assuming that is talking about hands, and not economic status.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on Mar 15, 2017, 02:48AM
You people are so ungrateful. We saved you from Hillary. What more do you want?
Competent and ethical handling of government, maybe? Does the GOP know how to do that anymore? Still waiting for even the most basic signs that they do.


You guys are going to make Trump mad and he is going to let Obamacare implode on the vine. Then what you gonna do?
"You guys" will then probably blame trump appropriately (after all, according to your words, he would be "letting" healthcare implode on the american people...), block any action he actually wants to do, regain power in the midterms, and then vote out his unethical, money-grubbing, egotistical, incompetent butt... and leave him to history to judge as the least competent president in our history. Well, that, and that the GOP could indeed put up someone more ethically challenged than their own Nixon. And they even have done so in three leadership positions across two branches of government.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on Mar 15, 2017, 05:00AM
Amazing the GOP (Government of Putin) has managed to elect the worst two Presidents in American history as the bread of a sandwich with one of the best as the filler between them.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 16, 2017, 07:41AM
On top of every detail... (http://www.dailykos.com/stories/2017/3/16/1644081/-Trump-s-budget-director-Coal-miners-kids-need-bombs-not-Sesame-Street)


Quote
Donald Trump’s budget is in, and to begin to understand how appalling it is, it might help to know that Office of Management and Budget director Mick Mulvaney has explained that the budget was put together in part by looking at Trump’s speeches for guidance.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 16, 2017, 08:22AM
Tucker Carlson seems to be asking the questions that should be asked, but the answers are just word salad and promises to "submit something very soon", basically a delaying tactic to avoid answering the question.

(transcript of Trump interview on FOX, from Facebook post)

(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17352064_10155954094023327_9010318780171495208_n.jpg?oh=b4024334805fbbf16d109eb8d10db0e3&oe=596460FB)

(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17022324_10155954094073327_9114994756904494917_n.jpg?oh=c4290d66c05c1ed09d408917ee555aeb&oe=595824AA)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Mar 16, 2017, 10:10AM
Increases in the defence budget and the budget for homeland security.

Necessary?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Mar 16, 2017, 10:12AM
Of course not.  But his base likes to spend money on bullets and not butter.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Mar 16, 2017, 11:47AM
Tucker Carlson seems to be asking the questions that should be asked, but the answers are just word salad and promises to "submit something very soon", basically a delaying tactic to avoid answering the question.
Trump always manages to sound like an idiot.  He can also never pass up the opportunity to both put someone down and congratulate himself.  He's an ass.  A disgusting excuse for human being.

Half a day can't go by without him embarrassing the people of one of the worlds greatest nations.  How long is America going to put up with this?  It's pitiful and sickening. :(


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Mar 16, 2017, 12:10PM
Trump always manages to sound like an idiot.  He can also never pass up the opportunity to both put someone down and congratulate himself.  He's an ass.  A disgusting excuse for human being.

Half a day can't go by without him embarrassing the people of one of the worlds greatest nations.  How long is America going to put up with this?  It's pitiful and sickening. :(

If you want to see another example of this, read about the Land of the Yahoos in Gulliver's Travels (Jonathan Swift, 1735).


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: bhcordova on Mar 16, 2017, 01:08PM
Trump always manages to sound like an idiot.  He can also never pass up the opportunity to both put someone down and congratulate himself.  He's an ass.  A disgusting excuse for human being.

Half a day can't go by without him embarrassing the people of one of the worlds greatest nations.  How long is America going to put up with this?  It's pitiful and sickening. :(

Well, the next presidential election is in 2020, if it happens.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Mar 16, 2017, 01:18PM
It's only a matter of time until he asks you to contribute sons and daughters to the cause.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: bhcordova on Mar 17, 2017, 09:11AM
But, he's pro-life (he said so.) and he's not Hillary.  I cannot stress how important that is to the religious and political right.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Mar 17, 2017, 09:36AM
Kinder, Kuche, Kirche. (Children, Kitchen, Church)

A nice Nazi motto to describe duties of the Ladies.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Graham Martin on Mar 17, 2017, 04:45PM
Trump always manages to sound like an idiot.  He can also never pass up the opportunity to both put someone down and congratulate himself.  He's an ass.  A disgusting excuse for human being.

Half a day can't go by without him embarrassing the people of one of the worlds greatest nations.  How long is America going to put up with this?  It's pitiful and sickening. :(

Absolutely! I cannot even bear to watch him on TV these days because it is so embarrassing. But you have to, in the event he is going to cause a world catastrophe and you need to be pre-warned. His behaviour overnight with German Chancellor Angela Merkel at the White House was typical of this and totally unacceptable from a world leader - or somebody who thinks he is. The US has to get rid of him. And quick!!!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Mar 17, 2017, 07:43PM
The handshake business – what was that all about?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 17, 2017, 08:38PM
Commentary making the rounds on Facebook...

Quote
Immediately after the election Trump transition spokesman Jason Miller explained that Melania would be staying in New York because there was "obviously a sensitivity to pulling out a 10-year-old in the middle of the school year".
We have since learned that the cost of security for Melania and Barron to remain at Trump Tower is $183 million/year. There is also no indication that they will actually move to DC this summer. So in essence the Federal government is giving the Trump family a $183 million annual voucher so Barron can attend the elite private prep school of his choice.

Meanwhile, we learned last night that Trump's budget would completely eliminate funding for the National Endowment for the Arts. The NEA, with an annual budget of only $148 million, is able to provide seed money for arts programming in literally every Congressional district in the country.

So, on the one hand you have a $183 million school voucher for a single 10-year-old at an elite private school. On the other hand you have a program that impacts arts and cultural programming throughout the entire nation.

Call your representative and let them know that you think art access for _every kid in America_ at a cheaper price than prep school for one kid is a pretty good deal.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Mar 18, 2017, 07:10AM
Robcat, it's worth mentioning that the projected comparison isn't entirely accurate, because the Trumps are still saying that Melania and Barron will move to the White House at the end of the school year. We'll see. It certainly puts the insignificance of Trump's 'donation' of his salary in perspective.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Mar 18, 2017, 08:35AM
The handshake business – what was that all about?
That's his Kindergarten sensibilities coming to the fore, as they do all the time.

His lack of maturity is appalling, and now he has publicly alienated another country.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 19, 2017, 02:43PM
Well, this is a surprise...

White House Admits Trump ‘Insurance For Everybody’ Guarantee Isn’t Going To Happen (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-insurance-mulvaney_us_58cea736e4b00705db502fef?mvq1e5ddvz6txd2t9&)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Mar 19, 2017, 02:57PM
My favorite line is Trump's: "Who would believe that health care could be so complicated?"  Well, the Democrats did.  Why do you think ObamaCare is how it is? ;)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 19, 2017, 03:07PM
New Gallup numbers. Maybe they just called Meals on Wheels voters...

(http://a5.img.talkingpointsmemo.com/image/upload/w_652/slgcksjuase6ixhuwj5n.jpg)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Mar 19, 2017, 06:01PM
Who Wins and Loses in Trump’s Proposed Budget (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/03/15/us/politics/trump-budget-proposal.html)
 
Sadly there's nothing really surprising there, but it's striking to see the actual numbers.
 
I'd like to see the breakdown under the Justice entry.
 
Will many learn from this?
 
Yeah ... I know.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Mar 19, 2017, 06:38PM
This caught my eye:

"His budget also relies on cuts to prison construction, which the administration says can be accomplished because of the decline in the prison population under President Obama."


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 20, 2017, 04:56PM
The FBI and NSA directors testified today

What Did We Learn Today? (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/what-did-we-learn-today)

Quote
Let's start with the least mysterious: we learned today about as definitively as we are likely to learn that President Trump's claim that President Obama wiretapped him in Trump Tower is false. Seeing this stated so clearly is significant. But mainly we knew this.

However, regarding Trump et al. and the Russians...

Quote
Comey said this investigation is on-going and that it began in "late July."

To draw the very direct conclusion: the investigation continues and one of its key components is whether there was coordination between the Trump entourage and the Russian hacking effort. Ergo, it is false to suggest that that question has been settled in the negative.



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Mar 20, 2017, 08:58PM
Robert, you'd make a great investigative reporter.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Mar 21, 2017, 08:53AM
What Did We Learn Today?

Just a terminology quip, but that should be:
What Did [Those Of Us Who Aren't Desperately Clinging to Alternative Facts™] Learn Today?
 
Although "desperately" is inaccurate--those described are able to quite fluidly navigate the Escher world their intellects and perceptions inhabit (though it's also oddly a two-dimensional Escher world).


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 21, 2017, 10:33AM


‘Sesame Street’ Mocked Trump For Decades Before He Went After PBS (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/sesame-street-donald-trump_us_58d123bbe4b0be71dcf7e3c4?)

Quote
On multiple occasions, over multiple decades, “Sesame Street,” the show more closely associated with PBS than perhaps any other, took shots at the self-admitted and well-documented grudge-holder, calling the now-president “Ronald Grump” and building entire storylines around his greed and callousness.


(http://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/scalefit_720_noupscale/58d139d82c00002100fef888.gif)

(http://img.huffingtonpost.com/asset/scalefit_720_noupscale/58d12ad01400002000070a68.jpeg?cache=rro9awfg2c)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 22, 2017, 02:49PM
The Wall Street Journal weighs in. 
A President’s Credibility
Trump’s falsehoods are eroding public trust, at home and abroad. (https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-presidents-credibility-1490138920?mod=trending_now_1)

Quote
If President Trump announces that North Korea launched a missile that landed within 100 miles of Hawaii, would most Americans believe him? Would the rest of the world? We’re not sure, which speaks to the damage that Mr. Trump is doing to his Presidency with his seemingly endless stream of exaggerations, evidence-free accusations, implausible denials and other falsehoods.



The WSJ's tone is so damning that the NY Times reported on it (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/22/business/media/wall-street-journal-editorial-trump.html?ref=business)...

Quote
The editorial page of The Wall Street Journal is known for its conservative tone, but its latest editorial would stand out even in the pages of its left-leaning peers...

In particular, the editorial board pointed to Mr. Trump’s unsubstantiated claims that former President Barack Obama tapped his phones. “The President clings to his assertion like a drunk to an empty gin bottle,” the editorial said...



WSJ probably worried that the "Trump boom" will deflate if he can't get his deregulation party started...

Choppy Day on Wall Street; All Eyes on Trump and Healthcare (https://www.nytimes.com/reuters/2017/03/22/business/22reuters-usa-stocks.html?ref=business)

Quote
U.S. stocks in the previous session had suffered their worst day since before Trump's election as investors worried that the president's difficulty in overhauling healthcare was a sign he would also face trouble pushing through promised corporate tax cuts that have been behind the market's record-breaking rally since November.



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 23, 2017, 07:17AM

Just your average statesman-like statements...

‘I’m president, you’re not’: Here are the 5 craziest quotes from Trump’s bonkers Time interview (http://www.rawstory.com/2017/03/im-president-youre-not-here-are-the-5-craziest-quotes-from-trumps-bonkers-time-interview/)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 23, 2017, 07:59PM
Meme making the rounds...

"Donald Trump shouldn't be allowed to pick a Supreme Court Justice in the last year of his Presidency."


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 24, 2017, 11:47AM
TPM editor David Kurtz... (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/subdued-sean-spicer-before-obamacare-repeal-vote)


Quote
With the Obamacare repeal bill on life support, Sean Spicer is giving a very subdued press briefing today so far. Hard to be cocky when you're losing.

You can't emphasize enough how much a loss will set back Republicans on both ends of Pennsylvania Avenue.

Trump's projection as a man to be feared, deal-maker, change agent, controller of his own destiny is all wrapped up in winning. It's hard to find cover in politics after a loss.

Things slip away.

Power ebbs.

Don't buy any cutesy political analysis that a loss on Obamacare repeal is really a win for the GOP, or not as bad as it seems, or anything short of a disaster.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Graham Martin on Mar 24, 2017, 04:19PM
At last the Republican leadership is coming to its senses and they have pulled the bill to dismantle Obamacare. :good:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on Mar 24, 2017, 07:00PM
Meme making the rounds...

"Donald Trump shouldn't be allowed to pick a Supreme Court Justice in the last year of his Presidency."

I LOVE this meme!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Mar 24, 2017, 08:14PM
The glimmer brightens.

So, what's the next step in turfing Trump?

Another question.  Will the turfing of Trump leave you (us) with Pence, or another election?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Mar 24, 2017, 08:31PM
If Trump leaves office for any reason (other than losing an election) the Vice President will become President and he will name a new Vice President.

I think that may even be worse.

Remember Gerry Ford pardoning Richard Nixon?  Expect Mike Pence to pardon Donald Trump.  And probably to appoint somebody like Ted Cruz as Vice President.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 24, 2017, 08:54PM
When President Pence is sworn in he's going to claim he only got on board to prevent anything REALLY crazy from happening.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Mar 24, 2017, 09:15PM
If Trump leaves office for any reason (other than losing an election) the Vice President will become President and he will name a new Vice President.

I think that may even be worse.

Remember Gerry Ford pardoning Richard Nixon?  Expect Mike Pence to pardon Donald Trump.  And probably to appoint somebody like Ted Cruz as Vice President.
Way to crush my hopes Bruce!!!!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 24, 2017, 10:17PM
Quote
If Trump leaves office for any reason (other than losing an election) the Vice President will become President and he will name a new Vice President.

I think that may even be worse.

Remember Gerry Ford pardoning Richard Nixon?  Expect Mike Pence to pardon Donald Trump.  And probably to appoint somebody like Ted Cruz as Vice President.

Way to crush my hopes Bruce!!!!

If Pence were to leave office before choosing a new VP, the Speaker of the House, Paul Ryan, would become President.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on Mar 25, 2017, 08:13AM
If Drumpf goes down because of the Russian collusion with his campaign it is highly likely Pence will be implicated as well. This will be a full blown Constitutional crisis the likes of which this country has never seen. I suppose Ryan would be sworn in, but he would have zero legitimacy or credibility.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Mar 25, 2017, 10:06AM
One Nation, Under Fox: 18 Hours With a Network That [Tragically] Shapes America (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/25/business/media/fox-news.html)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Mar 25, 2017, 10:50AM
If Drumpf goes down because of the Russian collusion with his campaign it is highly likely Pence will be implicated as well. This will be a full blown Constitutional crisis the likes of which this country has never seen. I suppose Ryan would be sworn in, but he would have zero legitimacy or credibility.

If it is concluded that the Russians influenced the election, is there any constitutional provision for a do-over?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Mar 25, 2017, 10:54AM
If it is concluded that the Russians influenced the election, is there any constitutional provision for a do-over?

It would probably cause a civil war. The people who support Trump aren't fact-based and would never admit that the Russians swung the election--they'd look at it as 'liberal media' and 'deep government' or some other bugbear trying to undermine their guy.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Mar 25, 2017, 11:11AM
Way to crush my hopes Bruce!!!!


If Pence were to leave office before choosing a new VP, the Speaker of the House, Paul Ryan, would become President.
Arghhh!

This is not a good situation.  Not for anyone.

If the election of a particular party is shown to have been fraudulent, it would have to be nullified and all the resulting legislation (and 3x107 executive orders) reversed.  That would be a stinking pile for sure, but wouldn't letting Trump continue to fornicate with 100 years progress be worse?

This whole thing is worse than I had guessed it would be if Flump got in.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Mar 25, 2017, 11:18AM
BillO, this week may be an example where Trump's incompetence and indifference is an advantage. Let him keep golfing and tweeting and watch the GOP agenda go down the drain. As people see firsthand that he's no good and that they were sold a bill of goods, his coattails will be shorter and his GOP opponents on the left and right will be emboldened to stand up against his worst ideas, while he tanks their worst ideas through incompetence.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Mar 25, 2017, 11:29AM
I appreciate our parliamentary system.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 25, 2017, 11:34AM
No, there is no provision for do-over election, no matter how tainted the winner was.

One of the upshots of the birther allegations (Orly Taitz, et al.) was the courts explaining that once Congress counts the electoral votes and declares a winner, they have declared that that person meets all conditions for holding the office.

Basically, the courts don't have jurisdiction over that responsibility of Congress. 

Citizenship doubts, hidden criminal records, foreign spy status, bad hair... none of those arguments can serve to reverse the outcome of the election. No court will consider it.

The only constitutional remedy for removal of a President is resignation or... impeachment by the House and conviction in the Senate. That avenue is pretty flexible, however, since "high crimes and misdemeanors" is all the guidance the Constitution gives on what is impeachable.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 25, 2017, 12:04PM
Advice from the scriptures...

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C7uMg80W4AAAOJe.jpg)

<Edit: fixed image>


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Mar 25, 2017, 12:19PM
The guy who wrote that was pretty smart. Trump should have read it.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Mar 25, 2017, 03:07PM
No, there is no provision for do-over election, no matter how tainted the winner was.

One of the upshots of the birther allegations (Orly Taitz, et al.) was the courts explaining that once Congress counts the electoral votes and declares a winner, they have declared that that person meets all conditions for holding the office.

Basically, the courts don't have jurisdiction over that responsibility of Congress. 

Citizenship doubts, hidden criminal records, foreign spy status, bad hair... none of those arguments can serve to reverse the outcome of the election. No court will consider it.

The only constitutional remedy for removal of a President is resignation or... impeachment by the House and conviction in the Senate. That avenue is pretty flexible, however, since "high crimes and misdemeanors" is all the guidance the Constitution gives on what is impeachable.
Well, there is always section 4 of the 25th amendment.  Does Pence have the guts?  It's beginning to sound like he could rally the troops and be the first ever to invoke this.

Quote
Section 4: Vice Presidential–Cabinet declaration

Section 4 is the only part of the amendment that has never been invoked.[25] It allows the Vice President, together with a "majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide", to declare the President "unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office" by submitting a written declaration to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives. As with Section 3, the Vice President would become Acting President.

Section 4 is meant to be invoked should the President's incapacitation prevent him from discharging his duties, but he is unable or unwilling to provide the written declaration called for by Section 3. The President may resume exercising the Presidential duties by sending a written declaration to the President pro tempore and the Speaker of the House.

Should the Vice President and Cabinet believe the President is still "unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office", they may within four days of the President's declaration submit another declaration that the President is incapacitated. If not already in session, the Congress must then assemble within 48 hours. The Congress has 21 days to decide the issue. If within the 21 days two-thirds of each house of Congress vote that the President is incapacitated, the Vice President would "continue" to be Acting President. Should the Congress resolve the issue in favor of the President, or make no decision within the 21 days allotted, then the President would "resume" discharging the powers and duties of his office. The use of the words "continue" and "resume" imply that the Vice President remains Acting President while Congress deliberates.

However, the President may again submit a written declaration of recovery to the President pro tempore and the Speaker of the House. That declaration could be responded to by the Acting President and the Cabinet in the same way as stated earlier. The specified 21-day Congressional procedure would start again.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Mar 25, 2017, 03:09PM
I appreciate our parliamentary system.
Ahmen to that!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Mar 25, 2017, 03:11PM
I appreciate our parliamentary system.

I do too.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Mar 25, 2017, 03:13PM
The guy who wrote that was pretty smart. Trump should have read it.

Hey now--that's not fair!
 
The Donald could have written it! He has the best words. He has all the best words.
 
He has hundreds of words!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Mar 25, 2017, 03:13PM
The guy who wrote that was pretty smart. Trump should have read it.

Here he is:

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/07/25/donald-trumps-ghostwriter-tells-all (http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/07/25/donald-trumps-ghostwriter-tells-all)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Mar 25, 2017, 03:17PM

Hey now--that's not fair!
 
The Donald could have written it! He has the best words. He has all the best words.
 
He has hundreds of words!
Yeah, but he isn't exactly eloquent with those 213 words.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 25, 2017, 03:35PM
Well, there is always section 4 of the 25th amendment.  Does Pence have the guts?  It's beginning to sound like he could rally the troops and be the first ever to invoke this.


Yeah there is the 25th amendment although it doesn't actually remove the sitting President, it just transfers his powers.  A President who is not in a coma and doesn't want to be shoved aside could invoke the congress-has-to-vote-on-it provision repeatedly, causing a government paralysis.

I don't think it will go this route.

I think resignation is the more likely path.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: bhcordova on Mar 25, 2017, 03:49PM
You still don't understand.  This is just setting things up for his disbanding congress and the courts and suspending the constitution.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Mar 25, 2017, 04:32PM
You still don't understand.  This is just setting things up for his disbanding congress and the courts and suspending the constitution.

And calling out his brownshirts against the media. He started that during the campaign.

Trump just got less dangerous this week, because his intraparty opposition stood up to him and seems to have gotten away with it. There's enough libertarian, moderate, and conservative opposition to him in the GOP to keep him somewhere near the rails, as long as they don't chicken out.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Mar 25, 2017, 04:34PM
You still don't understand.  This is just setting things up for his disbanding congress and the courts and suspending the constitution.

Heh ... that would be among the shortest-lived coup attempts in history.
 
More than half of his own party (those with all the guns) would fight him--no one else might need even getting involved.
 
I'm sure some see this as an actual danger though--I mean success more so than the notion that The Donald may actually be so dysfunctionally narcissistic and detached from reality as to be thinking along those lines.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Mar 25, 2017, 04:42PM
You still don't understand.  This is just setting things up for his disbanding congress and the courts and suspending the constitution.
.

Pretty hard to see this happening. But a year ago, it was pretty hard to see Trump becoming president. We're in new territory here.

Can't believe your founding fathers didn't include language in your constitution along the lines of "Jeez we cacked this one lads - maybe we should do it over."


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 25, 2017, 09:21PM
Developing rumor... (https://twitter.com/sethabramson/status/845719948018302977)

Quote
(THREAD) BREAKING: Harvard professor and @CNN political analyst Juliette Kayyem says, per sources, Michael Flynn may have flipped on Trump.

"Flipped" as in telling the FBI what he knows.

More rumor and speculation in link.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 25, 2017, 09:27PM
You still don't understand.  This is just setting things up for his disbanding congress and the courts and suspending the constitution.

There really is no button to do those things. Trump would have to be loved and respected and worshipped to get anything more than an "oh yeah?" from who ever he thought was going to make that stuff happen for him.


Can't believe your founding fathers didn't include language in your constitution along the lines of "Jeez we cacked this one lads - maybe we should do it over."

I'll note that the office of the President is the most amended thing in the Constitution. Five different amendments have been enacted to fix problems with it.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Mar 26, 2017, 07:49AM
Can't believe your founding fathers didn't include language in your constitution along the lines of "Jeez we cacked this one lads - maybe we should do it over."

That's the situation the Electoral College was supposed to prevent, and of course we do have impeachment. While I've always had second thoughts I've never before been a fan of the Electoral College, but lately I'm really beginning to appreciate the wisdom behind it.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 26, 2017, 10:05AM
The Electoral College remedy is only good for about six weeks after the election and by requiring that they meet in their separate states, it was intended to be difficult to somehow sway them from the real actual election outcome.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 26, 2017, 12:28PM
Not much sourcing on this story but it's easy to imagine it true.  It wouldn't be the pettiest thing he had ever done...

Donald Trump printed out made-up Ł300bn Nato invoice and handed it to Angela Merkel (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/donald-trump-angela-merkel-nato-bill-defence-ignore-usa-germany-spending-a7650636.html)

Quote
The US President is said to have had an “invoice” printed out outlining the sum estimated by his aides as covering Germany’s unpaid contributions for defence.

Said to be presented during private talks in Washington, the move has been met with criticism from German and Nato officials...


 

The Times quoted a German government minister as saying the move was “outrageous”.

The unnamed minister said: “The concept behind putting out such demands is to intimidate the other side, but the Chancellor took it calmly and will not respond to such provocations.”


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 27, 2017, 09:38AM
Candidate trump saying he'd never go golfing when he was President (https://twitter.com/yashar/status/846152013389934592?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailykos.com%2Fstory%2F2017%2F3%2F27%2F1647639%2F-Watch-2016-con-artist-Trump-tell-a-crowd-he-d-never-play-golf-never-leave-the-White-House), just work real hard.



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Mar 27, 2017, 09:42AM
Candidate trump saying he'd never go golfing when he was President (https://twitter.com/yashar/status/846152013389934592?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw&ref_url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dailykos.com%2Fstory%2F2017%2F3%2F27%2F1647639%2F-Watch-2016-con-artist-Trump-tell-a-crowd-he-d-never-play-golf-never-leave-the-White-House), just work real hard.



Well, most of us knew he was a liar.  You know how you can tell?  His lips are moving. :evil:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: 3BF3BF on Mar 27, 2017, 10:25AM
What New Yorkers who have been listening to this blithering idiot for 30+ years have known all along:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yii483zIHjA



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Mar 27, 2017, 10:26AM
Well, most of us knew he was a liar.  You know how you can tell?  His lips are moving. :evil:

Or his thumbs are moving.



Title: Where's DD and the couple of other right wingers?
Post by: BillO on Mar 27, 2017, 10:55AM
Where's DD and the other couple of right-wingers?

Haven't heard from them here for a while.  Are they finally getting it that their horse has rotten teeth, caused mostly by the verbal feces that flows over them in a continuous stream?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Mar 27, 2017, 10:59AM
The Electoral College remedy is only good for about six weeks after the election and by requiring that they meet in their separate states, it was intended to be difficult to somehow sway them from the real actual election outcome.

However, this is precisely the kind of thing it was created to prevent.
 
Although I agree they didn't have enough basis yet when the EC met.
 
The problem this time was/is the fact that voting "wealth" is badly redistributed.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Mar 27, 2017, 11:04AM
BTW. Trump and Spicer are lying right now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdvZB6OY2Do (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdvZB6OY2Do)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Mar 27, 2017, 11:05AM

That's the situation the Electoral College was supposed to prevent, and of course we do have impeachment. While I've always had second thoughts I've never before been a fan of the Electoral College, but lately I'm really beginning to appreciate the wisdom behind it.

The Electoral College was designed precisely for this purpose, but it could no longer serve it.

The voting distribution used to create the Electoral vote could easily be duplicated perfectly without any EC--it would just be a distribution of votes by states. Same exact outcome as if every elector voted 'faithfully', with no electors needed.

So the founders anticipated--and they said this--that the EC was designed to overrule a bad choice by the people. But it's been so long since they've had anything but a ceremonial purpose that there would be chaos if they performed that function.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Mar 27, 2017, 11:32AM
The Electoral College was designed precisely for this purpose, but it could no longer serve it.
Probably true, unless someone managed to come up with some very clever way ... not that it seems at all likely, or possible.
 
The voting distribution used to create the Electoral vote could easily be duplicated perfectly without any EC--it would just be a distribution of votes by states. Same exact outcome as if every elector voted 'faithfully', with no electors needed.
Sure, there's nearly always a different way to recreate problems. I'm not sure where you're coming from on that one.
 
So the founders anticipated--and they said this--that the EC was designed to overrule a bad choice by the people. But it's been so long since they've had anything but a ceremonial purpose that there would be chaos if they performed that function.
Yeah--the main problem. Would We the People accept such a decision, and if so, under what circumstances?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Mar 27, 2017, 12:08PM

 Sure, there's nearly always a different way to recreate problems. I'm not sure where you're coming from on that one.

What I'm saying is that there are two distinct elements to the EC--the way votes are counted state-by-state, and the actual electoral college itself.

The way the votes are counted is designed to insure that the new president is broadly popular in most states, rather than just winning by very large margins in a few, and to give disproportionate voting weight to smaller states. This could easily be accomplished without human electors, and would have been easy even at our founding--you're just assigning a set number of votes to each state according to a prescribed set of rules (which has changed over the years).

So there had to be an additional reason for having actual electors, which is the second element. The founders anticipated that the electors themselves would select the president, with an eye toward the outcome of the popular vote, but not bound by it. The idea was that they would be a deliberative body and would overrule rash decisions by the populous.

In other words, I'm not just saying that there's more than one way to 'recreate problems'; I'm saying that the very way that the founders went about it, going to the trouble to have human electors, indicates that the electors' role was never simply to create a different counting system for the popular vote.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: timothy42b on Mar 27, 2017, 12:23PM


So the founders anticipated--and they said this--that the EC was designed to overrule a bad choice by the people. But it's been so long since they've had anything but a ceremonial purpose that there would be chaos if they performed that function.

There were people who advocated that tactic, but it was never more than a token protest; it had no chance of happening.

If it did, it would have been within the rule of law.  I see that as in contrast with the side that did not agree to accept the results of the election if they lost. 


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Mar 27, 2017, 12:56PM
There were people who advocated that tactic, but it was never more than a token protest; it had no chance of happening.

If it did, it would have been within the rule of law.  I see that as in contrast with the side that did not agree to accept the results of the election if they lost. 

I am very glad that the EC did not fulfill their proper function in the most recent election. Tradition sometimes counts alongside law, and it's way too late for a return to that. It would have been chaos and maybe civil war if the Trump cretins didn't get their way.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 27, 2017, 02:14PM
I'll note that the argument that the Electoral College was put there to ensure a wise leader was chosen is just Alexander Hamilton's explanation (in the Federalist papers). It's not official Constitutional stuff.  I'm not sure that many of the other founders believed it. 

Did Hamilton even believe it?

The requirement that the electors meet apart in their separate state capitals seems to work against Hamilton's idea. There was no way for them to "deliberate" in an age when it could take weeks or months or a letter to get from one end of the country to another. Political parties didn't exist at the time to facilitate a voting strategy in advance of the election.


A better explanation I've read for the EC is that it inflated the influence of the slave states.  With Electors apportioned on the basis of population and with slave states getting to count their otherwise non-citizen slaves at the 3/5 rate, they acquired an influence in the election that they could never have if it were just based on total votes cast at the polls. The slave states had very few people actually qualified to vote in elections. White males who owned property and paid taxes... not many of those in plantation states.


Speaking of "not many"... Trump's new approval rating is is 36% (http://www.gallup.com/poll/201617/gallup-daily-trump-job-approval.aspx)

(http://www.brilliantisland.com/images/trumpApproval.JPG)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Mar 27, 2017, 04:11PM
What I'm saying is that there are two distinct elements to the EC--the way votes are counted state-by-state, and the actual electoral college itself.
Right ... IOW the number of electors per-capita, and the actual final determination that's not actually constrained by the public vote results based upon the former.
 
The way the votes are counted is designed to insure that the new president is broadly popular in most states, rather than just winning by very large margins in a few, and to give disproportionate voting weight to smaller states. This could easily be accomplished without human electors, and would have been easy even at our founding--you're just assigning a set number of votes to each state according to a prescribed set of rules (which has changed over the years).
As I understand it the formula is off and needs to be tweaked in order to keep the EC in tune with its reason for being though. That could be wrong, but there seems to be a serious disparity when it comes to states at or near either extreme.
 
So there had to be an additional reason for having actual electors, which is the second element. The founders anticipated that the electors themselves would select the president, with an eye toward the outcome of the popular vote, but not bound by it. The idea was that they would be a deliberative body and would overrule rash decisions by the populous.
And I expect a lot of the populous had no idea about all of that. There was simply no such thing as transparency in anything remotely like we understand it now, for all sorts of reasons.
 
In other words, I'm not just saying that there's more than one way to 'recreate problems'; I'm saying that the very way that the founders went about it, going to the trouble to have human electors, indicates that the electors' role was never simply to create a different counting system for the popular vote.
Right. But yeah, it's gotten far more complicated and transparent, so it would be very difficult, and almost certainly really ugly, particularly at a time like this when the public is so divided that it's called a war--cold though it may be. I doubt it would flare up to a real civil war, though that may just be a factor of thinking in more conventional terms than would be applicable for such a war. I'd also expect it to get pretty seriously nasty though, and I'm definitely in the wrong region for my own best interests should such a situation arise. Things might not return to anything that could be reasonably considered a civil level by modern standards for years. It would at the very least result in a good deal more dysfunction and turmoil and damage of all sorts than even The Donald can very likely muster ... though I say that with definite reservations.
 
The best case scenario may be that he's taken down by his hubris (the Russian situation isn't an unlikely impetus), and he takes his crüe with him, even if that means Perry takes charge. I'm certainly not a fan, but he's at least freakin' rational, and far more competent in probably every relevant way than The Donald, which isn't saying much at all of course, just that we'd almost certainly be significantly better off. Not sure about the fallout and the Trumpistanians though. That's a major wild card.
 
I'm really feeling the need to get back home, to the San Francisco Bay Area! ... could even see bailing on my medical benefits to do so earlier if thing were to go all Medieval--they simply wouldn't be a factor any more (my wife and I are currently waiting until I can retire and retain them before the move is an actual option--that's 5˝ years from now).


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Mar 27, 2017, 04:41PM
Remember that at the time the Electoral College was formulated, we didn't have universal suffrage (even among men).  Basically the Electoral College was a reflection of the House and Senate combined.  It might have been at the first elections that the House and Senate actually elected the President (making us more like the Parliamentary system than today).

If you look at a map of counties that supported the various candidates, the rural counties overwhelmingly supported Trump (and Republicans) while only a few centers of population (i.e. big cities) supported the Democrats.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Mar 27, 2017, 04:41PM
I'll note that the argument that the Electoral College was put there to ensure a wise leader was chosen is just Alexander Hamilton's explanation (in the Federalist papers). It's not official Constitutional stuff.  I'm not sure that many of the other founders believed it. 

Did Hamilton even believe it?

The requirement that the electors meet apart in their separate state capitals seems to work against Hamilton's idea. There was no way for them to "deliberate" in an age when it could take weeks or months or a letter to get from one end of the country to another. Political parties didn't exist at the time to facilitate a voting strategy in advance of the election. There must have been some purpose to having them.



A better explanation I've read for the EC is that it inflated the influence of the slave states.  With Electors apportioned on the basis of population and with slave states getting to count their otherwise non-citizen slaves at the 3/5 rate, they acquired an influence in the election that they could never have if it were just based on total votes cast at the polls. The slave states had very few people actually qualified to vote in elections. White males who owned property and paid taxes... not many of those in plantation states.


Let's stipulate your point. The voting scheme helped the slave states, and still does--there's no question that the EC allowed the former Confederacy to tip the most recent election against the rest of the voters, even though they're still by and large our most ignorant, uneducated, and benighted citizens (even though we no longer let them have their slaves, they still want to fly their little flag).

But that's based on the way the votes are counted, which doesn't rely on having actual electors. There must have been some reason for having them, and even meeting in separate locations, they could have been a bulwark against the riffraff. Your theory doesn't explain the necessity of the electors.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Mar 27, 2017, 05:17PM
If you look at a map of counties that supported the various candidates, the rural counties overwhelmingly supported Trump (and Republicans) while only a few centers of population (i.e. big cities) supported the Democrats.

Only a few, eh?
 
How are you figuring that, exactly?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Mar 27, 2017, 05:45PM
Remember, congressional districts are allocated based on population.  Many "red" states have only one representative while some cities will have several just for the city.

So you will have a state like New York, where the City is heavily Democratic (with the exception of Staten Island) and some of the upstate cities are Democratic while all the rural areas are Republican.  The vote in the cities is enough to pull the state Democratic even though by area it looks quite Republican.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Mar 27, 2017, 06:31PM
Remember, congressional districts are allocated based on population.  Many "red" states have only one representative while some cities will have several just for the city.
 
So you will have a state like New York, where the City is heavily Democratic (with the exception of Staten Island) and some of the upstate cities are Democratic while all the rural areas are Republican.  The vote in the cities is enough to pull the state Democratic even though by area it looks quite Republican.

I'm well aware of those things--"remembering" isn't so much involved as simply knowing.
 
So how are you figuring "only a few centers of population supported the Democrats"?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Mar 27, 2017, 06:37PM
Remember, congressional districts are allocated based on population.  Many "red" states have only one representative while some cities will have several just for the city.

So you will have a state like New York, where the City is heavily Democratic (with the exception of Staten Island) and some of the upstate cities are Democratic while all the rural areas are Republican.  The vote in the cities is enough to pull the state Democratic even though by area it looks quite Republican.

Congressional districts are allocated on population, but Senate seats are not. I believe both are considered in granting electors.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Mar 27, 2017, 07:10PM
Congressional districts are allocated on population, but Senate seats are not. I believe both are considered in granting electors.

Correct.  In my state we have two congressmen (women) and two Senators for 4 electoral votes.  State population is about 1,000,000.  That's 1 EV per 250,000.  Much higher than, say, Massachusetts (1 EV per 619,000 population).


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 27, 2017, 07:34PM
Chart showing the population per electoral vote for each state.

Turns out, I'm in the most weakly represented state (Texas).


I'd be curious to see a version of that chart that shows actual cast votes per elector.

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/14/State_population_per_electoral_vote.png/1920px-State_population_per_electoral_vote.png)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Mar 27, 2017, 08:13PM
You would have to factor the chart by participation.  I know New Hampshire has one of the highest.  I think we were close to 80% in the 2016 election.  We were at 70% in 2008.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 27, 2017, 08:22PM
You would have to factor the chart by participation.  I know New Hampshire has one of the highest.  I think we were close to 80% in the 2016 election.  We were at 70% in 2008.

You can factor it lots of ways.  But I'd like to see actual turn-out voters per elector.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Mar 27, 2017, 08:28PM
You can factor it lots of ways.  But I'd like to see actual turn-out voters per elector.

You'd have to get voter turnouts by state (in percentages) and apply that to the data from which your chart was made.  You might want to ask the folks at fivethirtyeight.com if they actually did this.  If they did, it would have been in the late November to early December timeframe.  Those kinds of statistics are what they specialize in.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 28, 2017, 06:58AM
I want the actual voter to actual elector ratio. That is an interesting number to me in itself.

You're assuming I want it for a wrong reason. It's not your place to assume that.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Mar 28, 2017, 07:26AM
I'm not assuming anything.  I think you have a good idea.  I was just suggesting somewhere that they may have actually done what you ask.

During the election, fivethirtyeight had a voter "power index" where they factored the likelihood a state could switch alliances and the ratio of electors to population.  Since my state is considered very purple, we had a fairly strong "power index" for each voter.  A state with a high elector to population value but little chance of switching (like Wyoming) would have a low "power index", as would a state with a low elector to population value.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Mar 28, 2017, 10:31AM
What do the colors on that chart mean? Also, is it arranged from largest to smallest?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Mar 28, 2017, 02:16PM
What do the colors on that chart mean? Also, is it arranged from largest to smallest?

I'm not sure what the colors mean, if anything (blue light to red light across the visible spectrum goes from shorter to longer wavelengths, but I don't think that means anything here), but they're listed from left to right from largest population to smallest, and from what I saw looking into it I think they used the '08 census data (Georgia's gone from 9th to 8th most populous, and I think there were a couple of other discrepancies).


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 29, 2017, 11:01AM
What do the colors on that chart mean? Also, is it arranged from largest to smallest?

They are arranged in order of number of Electoral votes, I believe


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 29, 2017, 12:58PM
Just a flesh wound...

(http://www.brilliantisland.com/images/trumpApproval.JPG)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Mar 29, 2017, 05:17PM
The BBC weighs in:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39435786


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on Mar 29, 2017, 07:02PM
The BBC weighs in:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-39435786

Another great article.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 29, 2017, 07:55PM
I did some quick calculations pasting 2016 state results into a spreadsheet.

The state with the fewest voters per elector was Wyoming (86,261)

The state with the most voters per elector was Washington (401,178)


So, if you went to the polls in Wyoming you had about 4.6 times more electoral college influence than a voter in Washington.


Other states of interest


DC 104,196
CA 257,832
IL 276,798
NH 185,465
NY 266,239
TX 249,168




Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Mar 29, 2017, 08:05PM
Now you have to factor your results by how much of a "swing" state each is.  Wyoming is solidly red.  California is solidly blue.  New Hampshire is pretty purple, as is North Carolina.

Maine apportions the electors for each congressional district by who wins the district (one other state does this; I think Nebraska).

I kind of like the idea that each congressional district elects its own elector with two electors going to the winner of each state.  It would make the EC a lot more reflective of the popular vote.  Might also make some of the larger states have more face time with each candidate.  For example, Texas might have two or three Democratic electors, while California might have 5 or so Republican electors.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 29, 2017, 08:15PM
Considering in swing-stateness might tell you how critical it was for them to get to the polls but it wouldn't alter the actual voters per Elector result.



Maine apportions the electors for each congressional district by who wins the district (one other state does this; I think Nebraska).


Both states award one Elector for each congressional district, and two Electors for the statewide winner. However, no matter how you figure the voter per Elector numbers in those states, they don't fall outside the high and low bounds I noted above.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Mar 29, 2017, 08:24PM
You can't significantly alter the votes per elector result.  It's based on how the Electoral College is set up.

Note that no state can have less than one Representative so even a state with one resident has one Representative and two Senators (although I think there is a minimum number of residents you have to have to apply for Statehood).  Populous states have many congressional districts but the same two senators so these states will have more residents per elector.

I was just pointing out that the voters per elector is only one factor in trying to predict an election.

If you really are miffed that you have one elector for every 300,000 of you in Texas, move to a purple swing state with small population, like Maine.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 29, 2017, 08:36PM

I was just pointing out that the voters per elector is only one factor in trying to predict an election.


There's the problem!  You think I'm trying to predict an election.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: elmsandr on Mar 30, 2017, 05:52AM
Now you have to factor your results by how much of a "swing" state each is.  Wyoming is solidly red.  California is solidly blue.  New Hampshire is pretty purple, as is North Carolina.

Maine apportions the electors for each congressional district by who wins the district (one other state does this; I think Nebraska).

I kind of like the idea that each congressional district elects its own elector with two electors going to the winner of each state.  It would make the EC a lot more reflective of the popular vote.  Might also make some of the larger states have more face time with each candidate.  For example, Texas might have two or three Democratic electors, while California might have 5 or so Republican electors.

GAAAHHHH!  Dear lord no.  Sounds like a good idea... But it just rewards gerrymandering even more.  For example, MI has had a solidly republican congressional delegation for quite a while.  Even when there are far more democratic votes than republican votes for congress.  All gerrymandered.

Fix the gerrymandering first, then open up the primary system for non-partisan general elections, and the EC problem will sort itself out naturally.  No, it will never be fully democratic, but neither is the presidential nominating process.  The EC just reflects that.  If somebody can come up with a better nominating process that isn't just parliamentary rule, I'd like to hear it.

Cheers,
Andy


Title: That was some weird...
Post by: 3BF3BF on Mar 30, 2017, 07:09AM
Several news outlets,

e.g.,
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/george-w.-bush-on-trumps-inauguration-some-weird-st/article/2618830

are reporting about a New York Magazine article where George W. Bush made an interesting comment about Trump's inauguration speech.

Sums it up nicely!

:)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 30, 2017, 07:20AM

But that's based on the way the votes are counted, which doesn't rely on having actual electors. There must have been some reason for having them, and even meeting in separate locations, they could have been a bulwark against the riffraff. Your theory doesn't explain the necessity of the electors.

I'll venture that by embodying the votes in actual people it was intended to reduce the possibility of fraud/error in stating the results (if for example, just one bureaucrat had been responsible for recognizing the result and mailing it to Washington).

A bit like how you have two people count the money received at the company every day instead of one.

For me, having the Electors meet in separates states is fatal to the argument the they were intended as a deliberative body.

If they were intended as a deliberative body of wise electors, then why not give them the process for resolving a lack of majority by one candidate? Why pass that off to Congress? They passed it off because Congress really was a deliberative body that met in one spot.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Mar 30, 2017, 08:12AM
Remember that when the Constitution was written, travel was a slow process.  Traveling from New Hampshire to Georgia (the limits of the original 13 States) could take months.  That also was the reason the new President took office in March rather than January as we do now.  So having the Electors meet in their respective states minimized travel requirements.

Also remember that we are still 60 years from the Telegraph and hot air balloons are not as controllable as airplanes.  The fastest method of communication is a courier on horseback and 200 miles a day is a rapid rate of transmission.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 30, 2017, 09:48AM
  ...So having the Electors meet in their respective states minimized travel requirements.

Which does nothing to improve their ability to be a deliberative body.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 30, 2017, 10:24AM
And I'll note that since the President wasn't getting sworn in until March there would have been enough time for the Electors to convene as one body in one place to think adult thoughts... if such thinking had been desired of them.

The more I look at the realities of it, the more I think Hamilton was just doing his lawyer's duty to come up with some argument, any argument, to make separating the people from the choosing of the President a sellable notion.

"It's not a bug... it's a feature!" - Alexander Hamilton


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Mar 30, 2017, 10:39AM
Remember, the first 6 Presidents knew each other quite well and there was not the antagonism that would show up 50 years later.

Also, there was no universal suffrage (Vermont would enfranchise all men in 1791 and it was the first).


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: elmsandr on Mar 30, 2017, 10:53AM
Remember, the first 6 Presidents knew each other quite well and there was not the antagonism that would show up 50 years later.

Also, there was no universal suffrage (Vermont would enfranchise all men in 1791 and it was the first).
Just because they knew each other does not mean there wasn't antagonism.  Remember that Burr guy?  They ended up actually shooting at each other.

Cheers,
Andy


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 30, 2017, 12:23PM
Remember, the first 6 Presidents knew each other quite well and there was not the antagonism that would show up 50 years later.

 :/


Adams vs. Jefferson: The Birth of Negative Campaigning in the U.S. (http://mentalfloss.com/article/12487/adams-vs-jefferson-birth-negative-campaigning-us)

Quote
Things got ugly fast. Jefferson's camp accused President Adams of having a "hideous hermaphroditical character, which has neither the force and firmness of a man, nor the gentleness and sensibility of a woman."ť In return, Adams' men called Vice President Jefferson "a mean-spirited, low-lived fellow, the son of a half-breed Indian squaw, sired by a Virginia mulatto father."ť As the slurs piled on, Adams was labeled a fool, a hypocrite, a criminal, and a tyrant, while Jefferson was branded a weakling, an atheist, a libertine, and a coward. Even Martha Washington succumbed to the propaganda, telling a clergyman that Jefferson was "one of the most detestable of mankind."


Adams vs. Jefferson: The Tumultuous Election of 1800 (https://www.amazon.com/Adams-vs-Jefferson-Tumultuous-Election/dp/019518906X)

Quote
It was a contest of titans: John Adams and Thomas Jefferson, two heroes of the Revolutionary era, once intimate friends, now icy antagonists locked in a fierce battle for the future of the United States. The election of 1800 was a thunderous clash of a campaign that climaxed in a deadlock in the Electoral College and led to a crisis in which the young republic teetered on the edge of collapse.



John Adams... President, hermaphrodite

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/25/US_Navy_031029-N-6236G-001_A_painting_of_President_John_Adams_%281735-1826%29%2C_2nd_president_of_the_United_States%2C_by_Asher_B._Durand_%281767-1845%29-crop.jpg/234px-US_Navy_031029-N-6236G-001_A_painting_of_President_John_Adams_%281735-1826%29%2C_2nd_president_of_the_United_States%2C_by_Asher_B._Durand_%281767-1845%29-crop.jpg)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Mar 30, 2017, 12:41PM
You know the difference between a chickpea and a garbanzo?

Donald Trump never paid to have a garbanzo on him.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Mar 30, 2017, 05:19PM
Flynn to flip?

From the WSJ through Reuters:

(Reuters) - President Donald Trump's former national security adviser, Michael Flynn, has told the FBI and congressional officials investigating the Trump campaign's potential ties to Russia that he is willing to be interviewed in exchange for immunity from prosecution, the Wall Street Journal reported on Thursday.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 30, 2017, 05:46PM
Flynn to flip?

From the WSJ through Reuters:

(Reuters) - President Donald Trump's former national security adviser, Michael Flynn, has told the FBI and congressional officials investigating the Trump campaign's potential ties to Russia that he is willing to be interviewed in exchange for immunity from prosecution, the Wall Street Journal reported on Thursday.


From TPM (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/running-out-of-rungs-on-the-ladder)


Quote
Mike Flynn tells the FBI he's willing to talk, but only for immunity. But you only get immunity if you deliver someone else higher up the ladder. And there's only one person higher up the ladder.

So, would that be Steve Bannon or Ivanka?


Title: Re: Where's DD and the couple of other right wingers?
Post by: Piano man on Mar 30, 2017, 06:02PM
Where's DD and the other couple of right-wingers?

Haven't heard from them here for a while.  Are they finally getting it that their horse has rotten teeth, caused mostly by the verbal feces that flows over them in a continuous stream?

I think whatever rationale was underpinning the positions of white, right-wing, working-class conservatives has simply disappeared in the aftermath of Trumpcare's collapse.

Recall that this is the main group of voters that sent the Tea Partiers to Congress in the midterms, leading to the formation of the Freedom Caucus, who got Boehner thrown out because he wouldn't get rid of new government-subsidized medical care programs. This was apparently a matter of great principle for these congressmen and their voters.

Now many of these same voters have become Trump supporters, for no particular reason I can determine. In the aftermath of the Trumpcare debacle, Trump and many of his supporters are mad at the Freedom Caucus for refusing to support new government-subsidized health care programs, which is precisely what the Freedom Caucus has been doing all along, and why this group of voters supposedly supported them.

The conservatives don't post anymore because there's nothing much that can be said. The complete folly, and lack of moral or intellectual principle, of the anti-Obama right has been laid bare. It was always phony and political to begin with, and now that can't be hidden.



Title: Re: Where's DD and the couple of other right wingers?
Post by: Baron von Bone on Mar 30, 2017, 06:19PM
I think whatever rationale was underpinning the positions of white, right-wing, working-class conservatives has simply disappeared in the aftermath of Trumpcare's collapse.
 
Recall that this is the main group of voters that sent the Tea Partiers to Congress in the midterms, leading to the formation of the Freedom Caucus, who got Boehner thrown out because he wouldn't get rid of new government-subsidized medical care programs. This was apparently a matter of great principle for these congressmen and their voters.
 
Now many of these same voters have become Trump supporters, for no particular reason I can determine. In the aftermath of the Trumpcare debacle, Trump and many of his supporters are mad at the Freedom Caucus for refusing to support new government-subsidized health care programs, which is precisely what the Freedom Caucus has been doing all along, and why this group of voters supposedly supported them.
 
The conservatives don't post anymore because there's nothing much that can be said. The complete folly, and lack of moral or intellectual principle, of the anti-Obama right has been laid bare. It was always phony and political to begin with, and now that can't be hidden.

You're not suggesting they actually have the awareness to recognize this sort of thing though, are you?


Title: Re: Where's DD and the couple of other right wingers?
Post by: Piano man on Mar 30, 2017, 06:37PM

You're not suggesting they actually have the awareness to recognize this sort of thing though, are you?

I think it should eventually befuddle the blind followers when they're first told the 'establishment' GOP is terrible because they wouldn't repeal Obamacare, and the Freedom Caucus is the hero for opposing these programs, then they start blindly following Trump and are suddenly told that the Freedom Caucus is bad and disloyal because they're opposing Trumpcare on precisely the same grounds. I actually admire the FC for their consistency, even though I disagree with them. The great majority of GOP congressmen treated opposition to Obamacare and concern over deficits simply as convenient cudgels with which to sabotage the economic recovery and the Obama administration. Apparently the Freedom Caucus guys really meant it. Ryan and Boehner should have explained to them it was all a joke.

There has to be some cognitive dissonance, at some point--they have to ask themselves, Do I actually believe in any sort of policy or principle that stays the same no matter whose ox is being gored and which party is in power? If you look at the hard-and-fast principles that conservatives gave up when they supported Trump, like debt control (which people used to pretend was important), you'd think at some point they'd notice that the whole thing was a political gimmick.

In the end, these voters will put up with any sort of political or economic apostasy against conservatism, as long as the candidate is mean to Mexicans.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Mar 30, 2017, 06:39PM
Flynn to flip?

From the WSJ through Reuters:

(Reuters) - President Donald Trump's former national security adviser, Michael Flynn, has told the FBI and congressional officials investigating the Trump campaign's potential ties to Russia that he is willing to be interviewed in exchange for immunity from prosecution, the Wall Street Journal reported on Thursday.

If Flynn has somethings of substance to spill on Trump, he better hire a bodyguard and get a food taster.....seriously. I wouldn't put anything past 45 and his minions.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Mar 30, 2017, 07:51PM
I think we're getting carried away a little over Flynn's motives. There are all sorts of reasons to seek immunity, especially in an area where the legal lines are complex. Certainly one area of exposure would be any untruths he told to FBI investigators, which would be actionable even if the underlying activities were legal.

Remember when lots of people were sure Hillary was going to jail when some underlings asked for and were granted immunity? This may be different, but I wouldn't assume it means he has the goods on Trump. It could just as easily mean that he's trying to create demand for his own testimony to keep himself out of hot water.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Mar 30, 2017, 07:53PM
If Flynn has somethings of substance to spill on Trump, he better hire a bodyguard and get a food taster.....seriously. I wouldn't put anything past 45 and his minions.

Not to mention Putin. He can get a little cranky when you cross him.


Title: Re: Where's DD and the couple of other right wingers?
Post by: Baron von Bone on Mar 31, 2017, 05:48AM
I think it should eventually befuddle the blind followers when they're first told the 'establishment' GOP is terrible because they wouldn't repeal Obamacare, and the Freedom Caucus is the hero for opposing these programs, then they start blindly following Trump and are suddenly told that the Freedom Caucus is bad and disloyal because they're opposing Trumpcare on precisely the same grounds. I actually admire the FC for their consistency, even though I disagree with them. The great majority of GOP congressmen treated opposition to Obamacare and concern over deficits simply as convenient cudgels with which to sabotage the economic recovery and the Obama administration. Apparently the Freedom Caucus guys really meant it. Ryan and Boehner should have explained to them it was all a joke.
 
There has to be some cognitive dissonance, at some point--they have to ask themselves, Do I actually believe in any sort of policy or principle that stays the same no matter whose ox is being gored and which party is in power? If you look at the hard-and-fast principles that conservatives gave up when they supported Trump, like debt control (which people used to pretend was important), you'd think at some point they'd notice that the whole thing was a political gimmick.
 
In the end, these voters will put up with any sort of political or economic apostasy against conservatism, as long as the candidate is mean to Mexicans.

I think you're under-appreciating how experienced and cognitively dexterous these people are with very serious dissonance. I know it's hard to fathom, but that's also pretty much The Definitive characteristic of their collective nature.
 
Again, understanding authoritarian psychology is key to understanding this group. I'm not sure authoritarianism is really a sound explanation of what's going on with them, but it's a model that works quite well for predicting their behavior (or at least not not misjudging it), and if you think there are anywhere remotely near normal limits to the dissonance they can digest without insult then I think you're missing something not just important, but definitive.


Title: Re: Where's DD and the couple of other right wingers?
Post by: bhcordova on Mar 31, 2017, 06:40AM

Recall that this is the main group of voters that sent the Tea Partiers to Congress in the midterms, leading to the formation of the Freedom Caucus, who got Boehner thrown out because he wouldn't get rid of new government-subsidized medical care programs. This was apparently a matter of great principle for these congressmen and their voters.

Now many of these same voters have become Trump supporters, for no particular reason I can determine.


You have not been paying attention!  He's pro-life (he said so) and HE'S NOT HILLARY


Title: Re: Where's DD and the couple of other right wingers?
Post by: Bruce the budgie on Mar 31, 2017, 07:31AM
... if you think there are anywhere remotely near normal limits to the dissonance they can digest without insult then I think you're missing something not just important, but definitive.

No need to digest items one may not even notice. Confabulation secondary to anosognosia is a hell of a thing.


Title: Re: Where's DD and the couple of other right wingers?
Post by: Baron von Bone on Mar 31, 2017, 08:36AM
No need to digest items one may not even notice. Confabulation secondary to anosognosia is a hell of a thing.

I definitely identify with the sentiment, and while in seriousness my understanding is that we should generally assume people don't actually have given clinical conditions or clinically significant conditions it really is seeming like this crowd may well be an exception to that general rule in this way, and probably some others.


Title: Re: Where's DD and the couple of other right wingers?
Post by: Bruce the budgie on Mar 31, 2017, 10:27AM
we should generally assume people don't actually have given clinical conditions

I may or may not have been being facetious... Some broader definitions of anosognosia cover lacunae in perception or cognition not necessarily associated with neurological lesions. Most of us have blind spots, maybe even ones of which we are unaware. I make an effort to test my own, while trying to stay humble about any conclusions I may reach.

Confabulation is still confabulation, though. Among first responders in my neck of the woods, the technical term for some of its more garrulous presentations is "talking ragtime." Sometimes I have found it interesting to just listen to what dementia patients are saying, without judgement or dismissal. There can be nuggets of sense to be gleaned there; it does call for a presence, a balancing act on the slack line between detachment and being engaged in the moment.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Mar 31, 2017, 12:21PM
New Yorker cartoon:

(http://www.newyorker.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Byrnes0329-A-moose_and_squirrel-1000.jpg)

“Tell them is fake news, work of moose and squirrel.”



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Apr 01, 2017, 08:35AM
From a piece in the Failing NYT about the consequences of being an FOT:


Michael Flynn

Of all the American influence-peddlers who’ve been on the payroll of Russian oligarchs, only one is currently seeking immunity before he testifies at a congressional hearing. Remember when Flynn kept yelling “Lock her up!” during the Republican convention? Hehehehehe.


Title: Re: Where's DD and the couple of other right wingers?
Post by: Baron von Bone on Apr 01, 2017, 10:45AM
I may or may not have been being facetious... Some broader definitions of anosognosia cover lacunae in perception or cognition not necessarily associated with neurological lesions. Most of us have blind spots, maybe even ones of which we are unaware. I make an effort to test my own, while trying to stay humble about any conclusions I may reach.
Lacunae = perceptual gaps/blind spots, right? I don't think I'm being pedantic by arguing we all have blind spots, but what I'm thinking of may be a different order as compared to what you're talking about ...
 
Confabulation is still confabulation, though. Among first responders in my neck of the woods, the technical term for some of its more garrulous presentations is "talking ragtime." Sometimes I have found it interesting to just listen to what dementia patients are saying, without judgement or dismissal. There can be nuggets of sense to be gleaned there; it does call for a presence, a balancing act on the slack line between detachment and being engaged in the moment.
It raises a consequential question to me ... psychologists say we can just decide to believe things and then genuinely come to believe them. I'm still skeptical. The notion intuitively seems to be a result of low resolution thinking/categorizing. If we separate and isolate the nuances I suspect we find that there's a distinct quality to chosen "beliefs" and those that are genuine--those we land on only after truly being convinced through more strictly honest and/or responsible means. Of course what's intuitive is often wrong, but if I'm wrong about that "talking ragtime" can result in genuine beliefs about reality that came out of pure fabrications, and it's hard for me to fathom how that could be. Regardless, the entitlement to Alternative Facts™ and such we're seeing from the far right has the potential to be devastatingly toxic, and it seems if pure fabrications can become genuine beliefs about reality they're that much more resistant to correction (not so much an issue for the Alternative Facts™ Crüe, but for those on the fringe or just not already too far detached from external reality ... ).


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Apr 01, 2017, 10:49AM
Then there's this:
Quote
“When you are given immunity, that means you probably committed a crime,” Flynn, then a top campaign aide to Donald Trump, said on “Meet the Press.”

And this:
Quote
That same month, then-Trump communications adviser Jason Miller said pretty much the same thing.
“Revelations” that Clinton aides “were granted immunity from prosecution in Hillary Clinton’s email scandal shows this was without a doubt a criminal scheme,” he said.

And this:
Quote
Not to be outdone, Trump himself told a rally in Wisconsin around the same time that “The reason they get immunity is because they did something wrong. If they didn’t do anything wrong, they don’t think in terms of immunity.”

“If you are not guilty of a crime,” he said, “what do you need immunity for? Right.”

Oopsy.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2017/03/31/michael-flynn-in-2016-immunity-means-you-probably-committed-a-crime/?utm_term=.83a8ad5d6902


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Apr 01, 2017, 02:35PM
Up until 50 years ago or so there was something in the South called the "Yellow Dog Democrat", some one who would always, always vote for the Democrat even if it was a yellow dog. The Southern Democrat agenda of segregation was so dear that nothing else really mattered. They would never vote for the Republicans, the party of Abraham Lincoln, the North and Reconstruction no matter how corrupt or inefficient their local Dem establishment was.

That all turned 180° after Lyndon Johnson and civil rights legislation. Now we have a substantial fraction of the population who might be called Yellow Dog Republicans. The Republican agenda of anti-immigration, anti-abortion and white privilege is an immense draw for them and it's just about impossible for a Democrat to run to the right of that to poach the Yellow Dog vote.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Apr 01, 2017, 03:04PM
Up until 50 years ago or so there was something in the South called the "Yellow Dog Democrat", some one who would always, always vote for the Democrat even if it was a yellow dog. The Southern Democrat agenda of segregation was so dear that nothing else really mattered. They would never vote for the Republicans, the party of Abraham Lincoln, the North and Reconstruction no matter how corrupt or inefficient their local Dem establishment was.
The way I heard it explained is that they'd vote for the Democrat even if they ran a yellow dog. As I understand it though, what you're talking about is a Dixiecrat (a Southern Republican before the Dixiecrat leadership finally decided they should align with the party that best reflected their regressive views).
 
That all turned 180° after Lyndon Johnson and civil rights legislation. Now we have a substantial fraction of the population who might be called Yellow Dog Republicans. The Republican agenda of anti-immigration, anti-abortion and white privilege is an immense draw for them and it's just about impossible for a Democrat to run to the right of that to poach the Yellow Dog vote.
The umbrella terms for these people are ideologue and/or dogmatist ... intellectual coward also works when the subject is also a Deplorable and demonstrating the fact, or when a blast of pointed accuracy/blunt honesty may work to get the point across a bit more effectively for the target audience (which isn't likely the Deplorable, since it's usually pointless to try and encourage or advocate actual honesty and integrity with them--only their counterfeits within the given ideology/dogma that defines their "thinking" and perceptions).


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Apr 01, 2017, 03:54PM
Up until 50 years ago or so there was something in the South called the "Yellow Dog Democrat", some one who would always, always vote for the Democrat even if it was a yellow dog. The Southern Democrat agenda of segregation was so dear that nothing else really mattered. They would never vote for the Republicans, the party of Abraham Lincoln, the North and Reconstruction no matter how corrupt or inefficient their local Dem establishment was.

That all turned 180° after Lyndon Johnson and civil rights legislation. Now we have a substantial fraction of the population who might be called Yellow Dog Republicans. The Republican agenda of anti-immigration, anti-abortion and white privilege is an immense draw for them and it's just about impossible for a Democrat to run to the right of that to poach the Yellow Dog vote.

The 'yellow dog Demcocrat' formulation is a good analogy to what's happening now. I don't care who it is; he's right because he's a Democrat gave way to I don't care who it is; he's right because he's a Repbublican then to I don't care who it is; he's right because he's Tea Party.

Now it's changing to I don't care who it is; he's right because he's helping Trump, and these are largely the same voters. What's interesting is seeing it happen in real time, and with lightning speed.

Trump's war against the Freedom Caucus is especially awkward for the writers and commentators who have publicly defended the FC and the Tea Party against the GOP establishment and Obama, because the Freedom Caucus members are doing exactly what they've always done and are standing on principle.

Unlike Trump voters, who can conveniently forget their previous principles while they look around the trailer house for their opioids and their teeth, these journalists are on record saying they support these principles, and if they start attacking the Tea Partiers now, in order to kiss up to the Trump trash they'll be obvious hypocrites. This is only going to get worse on budget issues. The Freedom Caucus is already blinking a little, but I don't think they'll let Trump run up huge deficits without a fight.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Apr 01, 2017, 04:53PM
The 'yellow dog Demcocrat' formulation is a good analogy to what's happening now. I don't care who it is; he's right because he's a Democrat gave way to I don't care who it is; he's right because he's a Repbublican then to I don't care who it is; he's right because he's Tea Party.
 
Now it's changing to I don't care who it is; he's right because he's helping Trump ...
Not to be confused with I don't care that he doesn't agree much with me, he's better than the only other viable option.
 
Trump's war against the Freedom Caucus is especially awkward for the writers and commentators who have publicly defended the FC and the Tea Party against the GOP establishment and Obama, because the Freedom Caucus members are doing exactly what they've always done and are standing on principle.
 
Unlike Trump voters, who can conveniently forget their previous principles while they look around the trailer house for their opioids and their teeth, these journalists are on record saying they support these principles, and if they start attacking the Tea Partiers now, in order to kiss up to the Trump trash they'll be obvious hypocrites. This is only going to get worse on budget issues. The Freedom Caucus is already blinking a little, but I don't think they'll let Trump run up huge deficits without a fight.
The only significant difference between some of those writers and their domestically mobile, dentally moderate readers ( ... well, listeners) is their level of literacy and realized income potential.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Apr 01, 2017, 07:19PM
Yeah, "Dixiecrat" was the more polite, NYT, WSJ version of that term.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Apr 02, 2017, 03:16AM
Resignation rumors starting...

TWITTER RUMOR: Trump considering options including resignation/ RNC Steele: Trump won't finish term (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2017/3/30/1648893/-Rumor-hear-me-just-a-TWITTER-RUMOR-Trump-considering-options-including-resignations)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Apr 02, 2017, 11:18AM
There's nothing like his own vapid ramblings to demonstrate ... well, his rambling vapidity (compiled by Xylop (https://www.samharris.org/forum/viewreply/858819/) on the Sam Harris Forum (https://www.samharris.org/forum/)):
 
“I’m speaking with myself, number one, because I have a very good brain and I’ve said a lot of things.”
“I’m very highly educated. I know words; I have the best words.”
“My IQ is one of the highest — and you all know it! Please don’t feel so stupid or insecure; it’s not your fault.”
“I know more about ISIS than the generals”
“Nobody knows more about taxes than I do, maybe in the history of the world.”
“I know more about foreign policy than anybody running.”
“I’m the best thing that’s ever happened to the Secret Service.”
“I will be the greatest jobs president that God ever created. I tell you that”
“I would build a great wall, and nobody builds walls better than me, believe me”
“And by the way, just so you know, I am the least racist person, the least racist person that you’ve ever seen, the least.”
“All of the women on The Apprentice flirted with me – consciously or unconsciously. That’s to be expected”
“No one has more respect for women than me.”
“I would be the best for women, the best for women’s health issues.”
“No one has done more for people with disabilities than me.”
“I have the best temperament or certainly one of the best temperaments of anybody that’s ever run for the office of president. Ever.”
“Everything I’ve done virtually has been a tremendous success.”
“After I beat them, I’m going to be so presidential, you’re going to be so bored, you’re going to say, this is the most boring human being I’ve ever interviewed.”
“The doctor said, ‘Man you have the blood pressure of a great, great, athlete who is 20 years old. 110, I like that, because I like being a great athlete.”
“Nobody reads the Bible more than me.”
And when he was asked his favorite verse: “Well, I think many. I mean, you know, when we get into the Bible, I think many. So many,” he responded. “And some people—look, an eye for an eye, you can almost say that.” The man’s favorite bible verse is an eye for an eye.
“Beyonce and Jay Z, I like them, I like them … I get bigger crowds than they do. It’s true. I get far bigger crowds.” – it’s not true and he’s the only one that cares
Says he won the second debate with Hillary Clinton “in a landslide” in “every poll.” – he lost in every major poll.
“I’m beating (Kelly Ayotte) in the polls by a lot.” – he was not even close – not that it matters to anyone but him
The Colorado caucus system for selecting Republican delegates is “rigged.” – when he lost the primary
The election was rigged when he thought he might lose
The Emmy’s were rigged when the apprentice didn’t win
“Out of 67 counties (in Florida), I won 66, which is unprecedented. It’s never happened before.” – in the past few decades, 3 candidates won all 67 and a 4th won 66.
“The Trump Winery near Charlottesville, Va. is the “largest winery on the East Coast.” – It’s not even the largest in Virginia.
“Upstate New York I poll higher than anybody ever.” – he didn’t even poll higher than Clinton and he lost there 56 percent to 33 percent
“We had a massive landslide victory, as you know, in the Electoral College” He won the electoral college by 7%. That margin is in the 46th lowest out of 58 elections .


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Posaunus on Apr 02, 2017, 03:24PM
The (lying) print media takes a stand!  From today's Los Angeles Times:

http://www.latimes.com/projects/la-ed-our-dishonest-president/#nt=oft02a-2la1

Of course the country still remains deeply divided - even here in California.  The responses to this editorial seem sort of evenly divided between supporters of the Times's arguments - and unrepentant opponents, Clinton-haters, and Obama-haters.  Lots of the latter have cancelled their long-standing LA Times subscriptions and will, I presume now get all their "information" from Fox News, Breitbart News, Twitter, etc.

3 more episodes in the Times editorial series to come. 


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Apr 02, 2017, 05:58PM
There's nothing like his own vapid ramblings to demonstrate ... well, his rambling vapidity (compiled by Xylop (https://www.samharris.org/forum/viewreply/858819/) on the Sam Harris Forum (https://www.samharris.org/forum/)):
 
“I’m speaking with myself, number one, because I have a very good brain...


When I was a boy, a politician just had to misspell "potato" to kill his career.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Apr 02, 2017, 06:07PM

When I was a boy, a politician just had to misspell "potato" to kill his career.

When I was a boy it was a shoe with a hole worn in the sole.

(https://iconicphotos.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/large_pulitzerprizeweb.jpg?w=700)

"Mr. Potatoe" is no Jack Kennedy. ;)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Apr 03, 2017, 06:35AM



Trump's Base Support Begins To Erode (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/trumps-base-support-begins-to-erode)

Analysis of Gallup trend...

(https://dawm7kda6y2v0.cloudfront.net/uploads/2017/04/C8cLDR-V0AAlgyZ-1024x645-a2208d0.jpg)

But it isn't just Gallup...

Quote
Even Rasmussen now has Trump down at 43% approval, his lowest rating yet.

For years Rasmussen has specialized in various synthetic or questionable metrics, most of which have the effect of bolstering favored candidates.

...“strongly disapprove” is at 47%. Almost half of Rasmussen’s already skewed sample “strongly disapproves” of President Trump.


But things aren't all bad.  Marist notes...

Quote
...83% of Trump’s Republican base, down from 96% previously, believe Trump is fulfilling campaign promises.

83% is still a lot.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Apr 03, 2017, 08:00AM
But things aren't all bad.  Marist notes...

83% is still a lot.

It's also likely clinically significant.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Apr 05, 2017, 12:09PM
Rare move toward sanity...

Trump Removes Stephen Bannon From National Security Council Post (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/05/us/politics/national-security-council-stephen-bannon.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=first-column-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0)

Quote
WASHINGTON — President Trump reshuffled his national security organization on Wednesday, removing his chief strategist, Stephen K. Bannon, from a top policy-making committee and restoring senior military and intelligence officials who had been downgraded when he first came into office.

The shift was orchestrated by Lt. Gen. H.R. McMaster, who was tapped as Mr. Trump’s national security adviser after the resignation of Michael T. Flynn,



But I'm sure Mr. Bannon will still have the President's full attention for the other six days and 23 hours of the week.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on Apr 05, 2017, 12:11PM
But I'm sure Mr. Bannon will still have the President's full attention for the other six days and 23 hours of the week.
Working hours... that's probably more like 9 for the weekly total.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Apr 07, 2017, 02:10PM


Taran Killam Confirms Trump ‘Struggled To Read’ At ‘SNL’ (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/taran-killam-confirms-trump-couldnt-read-at-snl_us_58e7974be4b05413bfe222ee?)

Quote
Recalling the experience to Brooklyn Magazine, the actor said, “He was … everything you see. What you see is what you get with him, really. I mean, there was no big reveal. He struggled to read at the table read, which did not give many of us great confidence. Didn’t get the jokes, really. He’s just a man who seems to be powered by bluster.”


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Apr 14, 2017, 06:56PM
Remember the ethics pledge all the Trump staff had to sign that banned them from lobbying for five years?

When a lobbying job comes up just ask for a waiver and Trump will give it to you.


Senior White House Adviser Departs for Business Lobby Group (https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-04-12/senior-white-house-adviser-departs-for-business-lobbying-group?cmpid=socialflow-twitter-business&utm_content=business&utm_campaign=socialflow-organic&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Apr 15, 2017, 07:22AM
Trump's Base Support Begins To Erode (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/trumps-base-support-begins-to-erode)

Analysis of Gallup trend...
(https://dawm7kda6y2v0.cloudfront.net/uploads/2017/04/C8cLDR-V0AAlgyZ-1024x645-a2208d0.jpg)
But it isn't just Gallup...
Quote
Even Rasmussen now has Trump down at 43% approval, his lowest rating yet.

For years Rasmussen has specialized in various synthetic or questionable metrics, most of which have the effect of bolstering favored candidates.

...“strongly disapprove” is at 47%. Almost half of Rasmussen’s already skewed sample “strongly disapproves” of President Trump.

But things aren't all bad.  Marist notes...
 
83% is still a lot.

The image of the graph with "annotations" should be called something like Inside the Vaporous Mind of A Trumpskull. But it sounds like many trying to remain Trumpskulls are already resorting to "at least he's doing better than Obama" (regardless of the absolute lack of any actual consideration of anything resembling facts that might come anywhere within the realm of relevance to that conclusion of course).


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Apr 18, 2017, 03:11PM


Trump Collapsing With Base (SAD!) (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/trump-collapsing-with-base-sad)

Quote
As we wait to see whether Donald Trump’s unpopularity will allow a Democrat to squeak through and win a thoroughly Republican district in suburban Atlanta, let’s look at an eye-popping new poll. President Trump’s popularity has collapsed among a key base constituency: Russians...


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on Apr 19, 2017, 04:11AM

Trump Collapsing With Base (SAD!) (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/trump-collapsing-with-base-sad)


That's funny!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Apr 19, 2017, 02:34PM
Super Bowl Champion New England Patriots at the White House, 2015 and 2017...


(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17952623_10156085667833327_5648584092266775085_n.jpg?oh=e5f0b83a637da661ef0d405c45564d32&oe=597CE56E)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Apr 19, 2017, 02:42PM
Boy, they must have cut a lot of players in 2 years :razz: :razz:

How many purposely boycotted this time?  I thought it wasn't even a dozen.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Apr 19, 2017, 04:10PM
I suspect the 2015 version includes many NE staff and org members who just weren't all that into it this time around.

The NY Times says 34 (out of 45) players attended this year.



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Apr 19, 2017, 04:35PM
...
The NY Times says 34 (out of 45) players attended this year.



And Brady (Quarterback) didn't boycott.  He claimed he had personal business.  I sort of thought that it was 6 boycotting.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: greenbean on Apr 19, 2017, 04:49PM
Looks like 2015 tops 2017 for the win - 118 to 53! 


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on Apr 19, 2017, 05:05PM
Looks like 2015 tops 2017 for the win - 118 to 53! 

It's just like the Inauguration photos.  Trump had more.  It's just that they were dressed like stairs :razz: :razz: :razz: :razz:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Apr 20, 2017, 05:14AM
It's just like the Inauguration photos.  Trump had more.  It's just that they were dressed like stairs :razz: :razz: :razz: :razz:

Damn ... all this time I thought they were the "trees".


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: elmsandr on Apr 20, 2017, 06:55AM
The Patriots organization tweeted out that two years ago they had 40 football staff people that were on the stairs that were seated on the lawn this time.  Funny, all the effort that people go through to protect a fragile ego.

As for the number boycotting, I've seen a number that ~30+ people that were invited chose not to attend.  That obvious includes more than just players as an NFL roster is only 53 players.

Cheers,
Andy


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on Apr 20, 2017, 10:46AM
The Trump picture includes only the players, and the previous one includes players and staff. The staff attended, but wasn't included in that particular photo so they weren't comparable. You can actually see the seated staff members in the foreground of the second picture.

It is true that fewer Patriots attended this year, and that at least some of them didn't go because they didn't feel welcome in the Trump White House. But the difference is not as dramatic as suggested by the comparison of the pictures.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Apr 20, 2017, 02:37PM
Now the NY Times is quoting a Patriots tweet that says 50 players attended in 2015 and 34 in 2017, aside from staff members.

That's still a drop.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Apr 20, 2017, 09:38PM
I offer an advance apology and warning.  What follows is not for the faint of heart or the thin skinned.

Ahh!  Numbers don't matter in dealing with Crump.  Likely everyone who attended in '17 were somewhat coerced.

This turd you have as president is simply an f'n pile of dung.  I can honestly say I have hated no other human more that this piece of crotch itch you have running your government.

His recent attack on Canada regarding dairy products is TOTALLY undergrounded.  His own administration's research shows the problem is due to overproduction in the US.  So what is this *****'s solution?  Attack Canada?  what the heck!  We import many times more dairy from the US than we export.  how the f'k can we be the problem?

Who is this ass's anus not going to blame for the internal problems of the US?

Good lord, don't you have ammunition down there?  God knows there are enough guns.  For Pete's sake, use one of them!!!!!  Please, put the world out of this misery.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Apr 20, 2017, 09:50PM
I'm not entirely buying the CDN position on the milk, although Justin is quite right in saying there is no free market in agricultural products. Apparently Mexico, Australia, and New Zealand all have issues with CDN dairy policy.

Here in BC, we're waiting for the softwood lumber dispute to flare up again.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Apr 20, 2017, 10:08PM
Have a look at this -
Report (https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=9&ved=0ahUKEwjjnI2Q4rTTAhWFzIMKHf-KB9QQFghMMAg&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.fcc-fac.ca%2Ffcc%2Fabout-fcc%2Fcorporate-profile%2Freports%2Fag-economist%2Ffcc-ag-economics-the-canadian-dairy-sector.pdf&usg=AFQjCNH6ki2MOnSNdIidkwsrUMPt5n4u9Q&cad=rja)

Have a look at the graph and text on page 3 and the source of that data.  You may not be a Trudeau fan (who is), but in this case he's not making it up.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Apr 20, 2017, 10:28PM
Got it. But isn't the American dairymen's complaint that re-classification and re-pricing Canadian SNF products have undercut them?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Apr 20, 2017, 11:04PM
Who knew Canada even had cows?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Apr 20, 2017, 11:06PM
Rob, Rob, Rob, Rob, Rob.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EURqkVn-suM&sns=em (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EURqkVn-suM&sns=em)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on Apr 21, 2017, 04:26AM
You may not be a Trudeau fan (who is),

I am. I would trade in a second and throw in a handful of first round draft picks too.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on Apr 21, 2017, 04:43AM
Got it. But isn't the American dairymen's complaint that re-classification and re-pricing Canadian SNF products have undercut them?

If I recall, the US government already greatly subsidizes dairy in this country. To the amount that the dairy industry threatens at least a doubling of the prices if those subsidies were to be removed.

Complaining about "free market" issues vs a foreign government in a market that already has an incredible amount of domestic government intervention and direct support... Yup, that ignorance sounds like trump.

And how did this come up? 75 dairy farmers in WI lost their main buyer due to a trade dispute.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Apr 21, 2017, 09:17AM
Justin's point, which is worth repeating, is that there is no free market in agricultural products. Every gov't subsidizes its farmers.

I am reminded of Joseph Heller's catch 22 which I believe was written in the early 60s.  Major major's father was subsidized to not grow corn. He made so much money not growing corn that he eventually branched out to not grow other crops as well. Eventually he became one of the largest non-grower of crops in the state.

In this province, we seem to have fought and won the softwood lumber dispute a number of times now. But lumber producers in Montana will file a new complaint and the whole process of dispute resolution starts up again.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Apr 21, 2017, 10:31AM
Got it. But isn't the American dairymen's complaint that re-classification and re-pricing Canadian SNF products have undercut them?
I'm not sure we've actually undercut them.  If we did we'd not have such a trade surplus in favor of the US.  We may have brought our prices down to their level in order to remain competitive.  The few people I know that feed into the dairy cartel are going broke.  Production in Canada barely exceeds our own requirements and is dropping all the time.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Apr 21, 2017, 10:32AM
I am. I would trade in a second and throw in a handful of first round draft picks too.
Well, compared to Trump he's a winner for sure.  No deal!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Apr 21, 2017, 10:39AM
Rob, Rob, Rob, Rob, Rob.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EURqkVn-suM&sns=em (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EURqkVn-suM&sns=em)
Yes, it's a little know fact that the beaver have become the overlords of most animal populations.  They've gotten a bit uppity since March of 1975.  Except wolves.  They just eat the beavers if they try to throw their weight around


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Apr 21, 2017, 11:36AM
Rob, Rob, Rob, Rob, Rob.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EURqkVn-suM&sns=em (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EURqkVn-suM&sns=em)


I'm pretty sure those are just moose, between antlers.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Apr 21, 2017, 11:43AM
Meeting of minds at the White House.


This is going to be the design for the back of the new $3 bill.

(http://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/fashion/daily/2017/04/20/20-sarah-palin-ted-nugent-kid-rock-trump-oval-office.w710.h473.jpg)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Apr 21, 2017, 12:22PM
A positive accomplishment...

Charity Worker Detained in Egypt for 3 Years Credits Trump for Release (http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/charity-worker-detained-egypt-3-years-credits-trump-release-n749296)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Apr 21, 2017, 12:41PM
Meeting of minds at the White House.


This is going to be the design for the back of the new $3 bill.

(http://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/fashion/daily/2017/04/20/20-sarah-palin-ted-nugent-kid-rock-trump-oval-office.w710.h473.jpg)


I saw a headline that described this photo as a white trash Mt Rushmore.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: bhcordova on Apr 21, 2017, 02:53PM
Meeting of minds at the White House.


This is going to be the design for the back of the new $3 bill.

(http://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/fashion/daily/2017/04/20/20-sarah-palin-ted-nugent-kid-rock-trump-oval-office.w710.h473.jpg)

Don't you mean meeting of the mind!  :evil: :evil: :evil:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on Apr 21, 2017, 04:01PM
Don't you mean meeting of the mind!  :evil: :evil: :evil:

There's not a whole mind their collectively.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Apr 21, 2017, 04:08PM
The guy in the black hat on the right is familiar, but I don't recognize who he is. I don't recognize the woman with him or the blonde woman with the Motor City Madman ... ?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: gregs70 on Apr 21, 2017, 05:04PM
Kid Rock and Audrey Berry, his girlfriend.  The blonde with Ted Nugent is his wife Shemane.  This is the best Trump can do? :-0


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Apr 22, 2017, 08:09AM
  This is the best Trump can do? :-0

It was the best Sarah Palin could do.  :D

(Trump told her to bring some friends.)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Apr 22, 2017, 09:20AM
Don't you mean meeting of the mind!  :evil: :evil: :evil:

How far our country's status has fallen. Sad


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on Apr 22, 2017, 10:27AM
Kid Rock and Audrey Berry, his girlfriend.  The blonde with Ted Nugent is his wife Shemane.  This is the best Trump can do? :-0

Woah! I can kinda see Kid Rock in there. Last I saw footage of him Kid Rock looked like he was barely getting enough calories to survive though. Is that the Baldwin Trump? The image is small enough and low res enough it's hard to tell--doesn't quite look like The Donald to me though. I don't recall ever seeing him smile quite like that. Makes me wonder if it's also a pseudo-Palin (as in an SNL kinda thing). It's not like The Donald wouldn't be accommodating to those types or anything though. The pic doesn't exactly strain credulity.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Apr 23, 2017, 03:05PM
From H Giroux and Salon, another view of Trump and America.


It was said some years ago that “when fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross.” This left the American people unprepared for how neofascism came instead in the form of Donald Trump, a reality TV star, racist, bigot, con artist and professional wrestling aficionado.

More at:



http://www.salon.com/2017/04/23/philosopher-henry-giroux-on-the-culture-of-cruelty-and-donald-trump-america-is-a-democracy-on-life-support-it-cannot-breathe/





Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Apr 23, 2017, 06:39PM
Fascism came to America wrapped in a comb-over and carrying a crying towel...


Trump: They Were Supposed to Love Me (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/trump-they-were-supposed-to-love-me)

 
Quote
I used to get great press. I get the worst press. I get such dishonest reporting with the media. That’s another thing that really has — I’ve never had anything like it before. It happened during the primaries, and I said, you know, when I won, I said, “Well the one thing good is now I’ll get good press.” And it got worse. (unintelligible) So that was one thing that a little bit of a surprise to me. I thought the press would become better, and it actually, in my opinion, got more nasty.

He seems to view the office as a trophy that we should honor him for rather than as a set of duties that he must execute well. Sad!


I can't recall Obama or Bush ever whining this much about press coverage.




Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on Apr 23, 2017, 09:38PM
I suppose Trump (or his advisors) might be thinking about Israel's success taking out the Osirak reactor. The Israelis also destroyed a Syrian nuclear installation at one point. I guess if the US can tell the N Korean workers are playing volleyball, it must know how difficult it would be to destroy the facility. But then Kim would just launch Scuds into downtown Seoul.



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Apr 24, 2017, 08:06AM
It seems the previous photo of this event inadvertently omitted some distinguished attendees.

Corrected version follows...

(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18034329_1022507284548537_6046926011602839909_n.jpg?oh=9cddccf9f4733e23d6f5146abe7d0553&oe=59870D89)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Apr 24, 2017, 07:57PM
Not even 100 days in and we're already to "What didn't the President know and when didn't he know it? "

(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/p480x480/18058141_10156109355348327_1448357378942585906_n.jpg?oh=8ebd191d055e50a78f2601479a2d54ab&oe=59C20E25)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on Apr 25, 2017, 04:48AM
Not even 100 days in and we're already to "What didn't the President know and when didn't he know it? "

(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/p480x480/18058141_10156109355348327_1448357378942585906_n.jpg?oh=8ebd191d055e50a78f2601479a2d54ab&oe=59C20E25)

What "Trump doesn't know" would fill an encyclopedia.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Apr 26, 2017, 04:11PM
Turns out that huge North Korea briefing wasn't so huge...

Senators Say Their White House Field Trip Didn't Clarify Trump’s North Korea Policy (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/senators-field-trip-to-white-house-north-korea-trump)

Quote
Senators had one question remaining on Wednesday after visiting the White House for a briefing on the situation in North Korea: Why?

Quote
And one unnamed Republican senator told the Washington Post that senators did not get “straight answers on what the policy is regarding North Korea” during the briefing.

“Several senators asked specifically, ‘What is the policy?’ and the briefers gave us very, very few details,” the senator said.

Quote
Dem senator says Trump briefly showed at NoKo briefing, did his "ridiculous adjective" bit.

"about 80 sets of invisible eyes rolling"


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Apr 27, 2017, 09:43PM
Just when you thought he couldn't say anything more revealing of his foolishness...

Trump Says He Thought Being President Would Be Easier Than His Old Life (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-says-he-thought-being-president-would-be-easier-than-his-old-life_us_5902b2c6e4b0bb2d086c6c09?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009&ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009)

Quote
“I loved my previous life. I had so many things going,” Trump told Reuters in an interview. “This is more work than in my previous life. I thought it would be easier.”


 :rolleyes:




Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on Apr 27, 2017, 09:44PM
Just when you thought he couldn't say anything more revealing of his foolishness...

Trump Says He Thought Being President Would Be Easier Than His Old Life (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/trump-says-he-thought-being-president-would-be-easier-than-his-old-life_us_5902b2c6e4b0bb2d086c6c09?ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009&ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009)
 

 :rolleyes:



Was there doubt?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on Apr 27, 2017, 10:31PM
Turns out that huge North Korea briefing wasn't so huge...

Senators Say Their White House Field Trip Didn't Clarify Trump’s North Korea Policy (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/senators-field-trip-to-white-house-north-korea-trump)


Trump offers nothing of substance and sincerity. All bravado and empty promises.

And the worst thing is, enough people bought into to it get him where he is now.....and most of them are unwavering in their belief in him.

Scary


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on Apr 28, 2017, 05:39AM
And the worst thing is, enough people bought into to it get him where he is now.....and most of them are unwavering in their belief in him.

Scary

The joys of moving toward philosophical approaches with the downstream being the impacts rather than moving towards concrete solutions for concrete problems with philosophy being the downstream impact.

When being guided by philosophy, it's a matter of faith... not data or reality.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Apr 28, 2017, 06:23AM

And the worst thing is, enough people bought into to it get him where he is now.....and most of them are unwavering in their belief in him.

Scary

I blame the coal miners. Used to be, the coal miners could stop the country by going on strike.  Today they derail it by voting for willful dumbness.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: elmsandr on Apr 28, 2017, 08:05AM
I blame the coal miners. Used to be, the coal miners could stop the country by going on strike.  Today they derail it by voting for willful dumbness.
Well, a lot of that is volume.  I haven't double checked this, but I saw reported that more people recently lost jobs in retail 89K than work in the entire coal industry.

Automation and competition, y'all. 
Andy


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Apr 29, 2017, 01:41PM
Clear, Frank Self-Assessment Dept...

Trump Declares His First 100 Days ‘Just About The Most Successful’ In History (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/trump-first-100-days-most-successful)


Quote
In his weekly address to the nation, Trump said...

Damn, I didn't even know he was making weekly addresses.



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on Apr 30, 2017, 03:05PM
It's only the First Amendment, it can't be too important, can it?

Priebus: Trump Considering Amending or Abolishing 1st Amendment (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/priebus-trump-considering-amending-or-abolishing-1st-amendment)

Which is more delusional... thinking he should abolish the 1st Amendment or thinking he could?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 08, 2017, 10:57AM
Can you imagine the absolute red-alert-24-hour-FOX News-bat guano-hysteria that would erupt if any of Obama's in-laws were found to be offering visas and US Citizenship in return for investments in their companies, even though it's technically legal?

Quote
...Mr. Kushner’s relatives are working feverishly (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/06/world/asia/jared-kushner-sister-nicole-meyer-china-investors.html) to solicit overseas money for projects in the United States, and they are highlighting their ties to Mr. Kushner as they court investors.

On Saturday afternoon, Mr. Kushner’s sister Nicole Meyer made a pitch to attract $150 million in financing for a Jersey City housing development, known as One Journal Square, to more than 100 Chinese investors gathered at the Ritz-Carlton Hotel in Beijing.

The money would be provided through a much-criticized government program known as EB-5 that awards foreign investors a path to citizenship in exchange for investments of at least $500,000 in American development projects.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on May 08, 2017, 12:06PM
But it's OK because Mr. Kushner's family and his in-laws are good businessmen. ;)

Still, the kleptocracy continues.   When are the Republican Faithful going to wake up?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Posaunus on May 08, 2017, 12:15PM

When are the Republican Faithful going to wake up?


Not until the muddled opposition provides alternatives that the Trump supporters understand and that address some of their real concerns.  Until then, they will continue to accept the spin from the White House. 


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on May 08, 2017, 01:02PM
Can you imagine the absolute red-alert-24-hour-FOX News-bat guano-hysteria that would erupt if any of Obama's in-laws were found to be offering visas and US Citizenship in return for investments in their companies, even though it's technically legal?


That has me seeing red. If no republicans step up and call this into question, I have lost all faith in the system. This is complete and utter bullsh*t


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on May 08, 2017, 02:33PM
I'm just talking off the top of my head without research because I'm too lazy right now to go digging,
but it sounds like you guys are against foreigners who are willing to come to our country and invest millions of dollars providing jobs to Americans, but are open to the idea of opening up our borders to low skilled workers, or no skilled workers, or terrorists, that will only be 'takers'.

Since you guys love open borders, then instead of Trump offering visas to Chinese investors, why don't the Chinese investors just come across our open borders and do what they want to do anyway?

I'm tired. I'll research this later.  :)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on May 08, 2017, 03:30PM
I'm just talking off the top of my head without research because I'm too lazy right now to go digging,
but it sounds like you guys are against foreigners who are willing to come to our country and invest millions of dollars providing jobs to Americans, but are open to the idea of opening up our borders to low skilled workers, or no skilled workers, or terrorists, that will only be 'takers'.


Sigh

Once again you completely miss the point.

Someone with a connection to Trump (via of son-in-law) makes promises of green lighting Visa applications, yet she is not working for the Immigration dept (or any other government office).

How can you not think this is improper?

Bottom line, are you okay with it?

A simple yes or no will suffice

 :rolleyes:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 09, 2017, 10:48AM
I'm just talking off the top of my head without research because I'm too lazy...

I think it's important that a government that claims its legitimacy from  being of the people, by the people, for the people, is genuinely devoting its time and energy to the well-being of the nation rather than devoting its attention to loopholes that may be mined for the financial benefit of certain officials and their families.

Foreign investment to create US jobs?  That's great.

But if that is what is called for there are certainly other US concerns with better track records of successful development projects with fewer catastrophes and billion-dollar bankruptcies than the Trump family.

Those non-Trump US citizens who have run their businesses competently are being put at an unfair disadvantage in the competition for foreign capital because they don't have a private line to the visa and immigration departments that the Trump family is now exploiting.

Our economy is supposed to reward competence and results, not insider connections.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on May 09, 2017, 10:49AM
I just want to point out that the cheap workers are here because an American is hiring them (or enslaving them using some rather devious means).  If no American wanted to hire these people they would have no reason to come here.

The "rich visa" program was intended to encourage investment in rural areas and in urban slums.  Instead, this investment has been in posh areas and just helps the rich get richer.  The program needs to be redirected so that it accomplishes its original purpose or it should be eliminated.

Dusty, you keep railing about lower class workers "jumping the line" for visas.  Here is a chance for rich people to do the same.  Do you feel the same way?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on May 09, 2017, 11:35AM
Not until the muddled opposition provides alternatives that the Trump supporters understand and that address some of their real concerns.  Until then, they will continue to accept the spin from the White House. 

To be clear, Trump does not address their real concerns. His list of actions is still small, though they all serve a crowd of billionaires such as or specifically himself. Yet his supporters still support him. It goes much the same way with a great deal of the GOP and their representatives. Even their most recent attempt to remake obamacare was a handout to the rich, while likely hurting their own base even more. And the perspective tax proposals? Would eviscerate their own base, and programs their base depends on.

Understanding...

It better shown in the model of domestic abuse, when the victim often clings strongly to the very person committing the abuse. Even to the point of defending the attacks against them.


Also reminds me of an interview around the election. A coal miner was saying that the government should help support them, if not in keeping the jobs than in helping to retrain for new jobs. Market forces were taking away the jobs. Obama and democrats were actually pushing for the retraining. It was the stonewalling efforts of the GOP that stopped everything dead. And as a result, the man said he would vote for the GOP this round. Understanding? Not hardly.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on May 09, 2017, 05:18PM
I'm just talking off the top of my head without research because I'm too lazy right now to go digging,

THAT I'll agree with

Quote
but it sounds like you guys are against foreigners who are willing to come to our country and invest millions of dollars providing jobs to Americans, but are open to the idea of opening up our borders to low skilled workers, or no skilled workers, or terrorists, that will only be 'takers'.

Yeah, those stoop laborers who pick our food for us are a bunch of 'takers'! Look how much harder you work than they do!

Quote
Since you guys love open borders,

Really! Find one post where anyone here supported 'open borders'. If you find it, address it to that person. Since you made it up, I'll remind you that when you continually lie, people quit taking you seriously. You and your president would both benefit from a re-reading of "The Boy Who Cried Wolf." Seriously, quit making stuff up.

Quote
then instead of Trump offering visas to Chinese investors, why don't the Chinese investors just come across our open borders and do what they want to do anyway?

The general objection isn't to the existence of EB1 visas (although the president himself has criticized similar programs). The objection is to Kushner's family and company peddling his access to the president using the program.

Quote
I'm tired. I'll research this later.  :)

I honestly don't think it will help. Just get someone smart to explain it to you.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 09, 2017, 05:46PM
Well, I gotta say I had no idea Donald Trump was so upset about the FBI's unfairness to Hilary Clinton. 

Whatta guy!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on May 09, 2017, 05:50PM
So, it looks like Jared just won the FBI director! 😎


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 09, 2017, 05:56PM
But in case you think there might be something else at work in today's news (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/into-the-abyss-trump-fires-comey)...

Quote
...The idea that Trump fired Comey because he was unfair to Hillary Clinton or set aside DOJ guidelines in a way that was damaging to her is clearly not true. Indeed, it is so transparently nonsensical that putting it forward as a rationale suggests a certain presidential indifference to what anyone thinks.

...In criminal trials there are certain actions defendants can take from which judges will tell juries they can infer guilt. In a political context, this is one of those moments.

...There is only one reasonable conclusion that can be drawn from the decision to fire Comey: that there is grave wrongdoing at the center of the Russia scandal and that it implicates the President.


I personally have faith in our President.  I'm sure this is all about upholding the very highest ethical standards, as we know he has done in all his dealings prior to this.






Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on May 09, 2017, 06:01PM
Did yall see the letters today?

The deputy director recommended it based on the handling of the clinton emails (something sessions and trump actually praised him for), session basically said "i agree with him", and trump... couldn't even just say "yeah, I agree", but had to bring in the russia probe in all of his 5 sentences.

Almost seems like a cartoon villain.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on May 09, 2017, 06:02PM
Does running the FBI come before reorganizing the government and finding peace in the Middle East?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on May 09, 2017, 06:03PM
Does running the FBI come before reorganizing the government and finding peace in the Middle East?
When it's a choice between running the FBI and running FROM the FBI... seems that way, yup.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on May 09, 2017, 07:05PM
But in case you think there might be something else at work in today's news (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/into-the-abyss-trump-fires-comey)...


I personally have faith in our President.  I'm sure this is all about upholding the very highest ethical standards, as we know he has done in all his dealings prior to this.

 :D






Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on May 09, 2017, 07:07PM
I personally have faith in our President.  I'm sure this is all about upholding the very highest ethical standards, as we know he has done in all his dealings prior to this.
This is so awfully sad - I mean reading through implied irony.  I know I'm not an American, but not a day goes past when something about the presidential joke does not have me shaking my head or hitting it against the palm of my hand.  Unless something is done about the lout, I can see a crippled US and wounded world.  He's just plain bad spawn.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on May 09, 2017, 07:10PM
So, it looks like Jared just won the FBI director! 😎
You're cheering on the systematic creation of hell.  You know that, don't you?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on May 09, 2017, 07:17PM
This is right out of a bad novel

 :cry:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on May 09, 2017, 08:25PM
This is right out of a bad novel

 :cry:

Or out of the Nixon administration. Remember the "Saturday Night Massacre"?

Apparently, many months after its conclusion, Comey's disposition of the case is suddenly sticking in the Trump administration's craw? What a crock. The idea of the president firing the head of the FBI while it's investigating his campaign is obviously an attempt to hobble the agency and obstruct the investigation.

The pretext given by the administration makes no sense at all.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on May 09, 2017, 08:53PM
Or out of the Nixon administration. Remember the "Saturday Night Massacre"?

Apparently, many months after its conclusion, Comey's disposition of the case is suddenly sticking in the Trump administration's craw? What a crock. The idea of the president firing the head of the FBI while it's investigating his campaign is obviously an attempt to hobble the agency and obstruct the investigation.

The pretext given by the administration makes no sense at all.

Trump is naive if he thinks it will just blow over.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on May 09, 2017, 09:36PM
Trump is naive if he thinks it will just blow over.

Nixon's acceptance of the resignations of Richardson and Ruckelshaus at Justice, who refused to fulfill his order to fire Archibald Cox as special prosecutor, was the on-ramp to the final slope to his ultimate downfall (in an interesting sidelight, the job of firing Cox went to Robert Bork, who was eventually rejected as a Supreme Court justice). Cox's replacement, Leon Jaworski, proved to be no more amenable.

This is much worse than people realize. The disinformation campaign--tarring Yates and Comey and everyone else who has the goods on the president's campaign--is blatant and deplorable. It's suitable for a banana republic, not the US.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 09, 2017, 10:13PM
I'm still inclined to think that there isn't anything more than some stunning personal embarrassment for Trump at the bottom of this, like... us finding out he isn't really a billionaire, but that he is so petty and vindictive that, yeah, he'd fire an FBI director just to stop that from coming out.

Maybe I'm just too attached to the media image he created for himself in his TV years.



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on May 10, 2017, 04:32AM
I'm still inclined to think that there isn't anything more than some stunning personal embarrassment for Trump at the bottom of this, like... us finding out he isn't really a billionaire, but that he is so petty and vindictive that, yeah, he'd fire an FBI director just to stop that from coming out.

Maybe I'm just too attached to the media image he created for himself in his TV years.



I believe Graham and a few others are finally getting to the closet where Drumpf's skeletons reside with their shifting of inquiries to his business ties to the oligarchs. THey have been propping up his fortune for years, and he is almost surely guilty of some form of money laundering for their kleptocracy from the Russian people. THe Senate committee just requested all paper work the Dept of Treasury Financial Crimes division has on Drumpf and anyone affiliated with his campaign. THis sucks for the country, but this boil on our ass has to be lanced.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on May 10, 2017, 05:11AM
Did yall see the letters today?
 
The deputy director recommended it based on the handling of the clinton emails (something sessions and trump actually praised him for), session basically said "i agree with him", and trump... couldn't even just say "yeah, I agree", but had to bring in the russia probe in all of his 5 sentences.
 
Almost seems like a cartoon villain.

I've been calling it a cartoon presidency since about January 20th.
 
At least a couple of talking head types were comparing that glaringly out of place comment about having been exonerated to a 5th grader's ability to lie. It strikes me that may of The Donald's lies are kind of a litmus test. If you're either selectively vapid enough or truly just mentally handicapped enough to buy many of them, you're useful to Trump types. If you aren't then you're potentially dangerous to them, but maybe very useful if you can make a solid show of pretending to buy them. In any case it's crystal clear what "values" don't actually mean to "values voters" who actually support this cartoon president, particularly when they're the same people who had deep personal type issues with Obama and Carter.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: bhcordova on May 10, 2017, 08:54AM

Our economy is supposed to reward competence and results, not insider connections.

Talk about living in a fantasy world!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on May 10, 2017, 10:05AM
Talk about living in a fantasy world!
Spoken like one who has been under republican governance for quite some time...


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on May 10, 2017, 10:13AM
I'm still inclined to think that there isn't anything more than some stunning personal embarrassment for Trump at the bottom of this, like... us finding out he isn't really a billionaire, but that he is so petty and vindictive that, yeah, he'd fire an FBI director just to stop that from coming out.

Maybe I'm just too attached to the media image he created for himself in his TV years.

There is the suggestion floating out there currently that Comey was getting to be too big of a name and getting too high of a news profile.

Nikki Haley was listed as a similar instance where her actions at the UN were getting a good amount of positive praise and her profile was growing, to which Trump "joked" that he could fire her, and she hasn't been visible since.


That said, the whole... these guys recommended that you be canned, btw, thanks for saying I wasn't being investigated... just as the grand jury indictments came for flynn and comey was asking for more funds and resources to investigate the russia connection... Just too fishy for me to blame ego.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on May 10, 2017, 10:31AM
There is the suggestion floating out there currently that Comey was getting to be too big of a name and getting too high of a news profile.

Nikki Haley was listed as a similar instance where her actions at the UN were getting a good amount of positive praise and her profile was growing, to which Trump "joked" that he could fire her, and she hasn't been visible since.


I think that's why we don't hear much from Bannon lately, too.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 10, 2017, 11:01AM
The money laundering angle sounds most plausible to me.

If it's true then Trump would be "compromised" by the Russians, who would be the ones who have proof of it, even if it's just private Russian businessmen that he was doing the favor for.



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on May 10, 2017, 01:32PM
The money laundering angle sounds most plausible to me.

If it's true then Trump would be "compromised" by the Russians, who would be the ones who have proof of it, even if it's just private Russian businessmen that he was doing the favor for.



His tax returns would show at least some of the proof of it. The main reason he refuses to disclose them.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on May 10, 2017, 08:07PM
A lot of speculation goin' on here.

It's fun but not demonstrative.  However, keep it up ...

The situation is precarious, and this invites speculation ... and imagination.  Let's hope the right people with the right power do some imaginative thinking here and use it to uncover whatever it takes to get rid of this orange haired puss ball.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on May 10, 2017, 09:48PM
The money laundering angle sounds most plausible to me.

If it's true then Trump would be "compromised" by the Russians, who would be the ones who have proof of it, even if it's just private Russian businessmen that he was doing the favor for.



At a time when Trump was in deep doodoo financially, a Russian oligarch bought a mansion from him in what's reputed to be the highest priced home sale in US history. He never occupied the home, and eventually tore it down. That smells of money laundering to me.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on May 10, 2017, 09:50PM
I think that Putin is holding something over Trump, and is forcing him to take out all the members of our government, one by one.

Our government will be turned into a Russian Parliament.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 10, 2017, 10:15PM
I regard the following as wild, unproven, internet stuff, but that's been good enough for Donald Trump...


EXCLUSIVE: Comey Day: ‘First Trump Russia Arrests Possible’ Thursday (https://patribotics.blog/2017/05/11/exclusive-comey-day-first-trump-russia-arrests-possible-thursday/)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on May 11, 2017, 12:31AM
I regard the following as wild, unproven, internet stuff, but that's been good enough for Donald Trump...


EXCLUSIVE: Comey Day: ‘First Trump Russia Arrests Possible’ Thursday (https://patribotics.blog/2017/05/11/exclusive-comey-day-first-trump-russia-arrests-possible-thursday/)


I'll take a dim view of an article that refers to Trump's firing of Comey as 'unconstitutional.'


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 11, 2017, 12:43AM
I'll take a dim view of an article that refers to Trump's firing of Comey as 'unconstitutional.'

I blame Trump and his poor example in the use of that same word.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on May 11, 2017, 03:14AM
I think that Putin is holding something over Trump, and is forcing him to take out all the members of our government, one by one.

Our government will be turned into a Russian Parliament.
(http://www.jesusismybuddy.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/returnoftheflyingpigscropped_1.jpg)

My goodness.  We actually agree on something!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on May 11, 2017, 06:41AM
I have to wonder about all of the right wing opinion news saying, "what's the problem? Trump has the authority to do what he did. He did it. That simple. Timing and reasons are up to the president are do not need to be justified."

To be clear, he has the authority to do a lot of things as president, including nuking the entire middle east. However, at no point is any of that authority beyond the realm of question, nor is any of it absolute and can be wielded at any time for any reason with no repercussions.

And these are the very people that questioned EVERYTHING, including a great deal of made up things, about the last president? Is the GOP truly at a point that morals and standards and accountability are simply something that exists to attack the other guy and they need none themselves?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on May 11, 2017, 07:21AM
Our government will be turned into a Russian Parliament.
Don't you mean Politbyuro?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on May 11, 2017, 08:45AM

 Is the GOP truly at a point that morals and standards and accountability are simply something that exists to attack the other guy and they need none themselves?


Is that a rhetorical question? The Magic Eight Ball says, "YES".


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 11, 2017, 09:38AM
Not from the Onion...


Trump Records Senate Hearings So He Can Replay And Make Fun Of Them Later (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/trump-tivos-senate-hearings-so-he-can-make-fun-of-them-later)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on May 11, 2017, 11:07AM
So... a couple thoughts....


Seems like Trump really was getting jealous or threatened by comey's profile... (which helps account for at least part of the reasoning)
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/11/us/politics/trump-comey-showboat-fbi.html?ref=politics
Quote
In his first extended comments on a move that has roiled Washington, Mr. Trump castigated Mr. Comey, calling him “a showboat” and “a grandstander” who had created turmoil at the bureau. But the president’s description of his decision-making process conflicted with the account provided previously by his aides.

The White House previously said that Mr. Trump acted only after Attorney General Jeff Sessions and Deputy Attorney General Rod S. Rosenstein came to him and recommended that Mr. Comey be dismissed.

In the letter dismissing Mr. Comey that Mr. Trump signed, it said he was acting on their recommendation. But in an interview with NBC News on Thursday, Mr. Trump said, “I was going to fire regardless of recommendation.”

Second... he really is the worst enemy of his own messaging. It's like when a judge put a hold don trump's travel ban, not so much for it's content but for what trump had said about it... to which trump publicly confirmed in statements later that night that the judge was right. All while trying to attack him.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: elmsandr on May 11, 2017, 12:04PM
So... a couple thoughts....


Seems like Trump really was getting jealous or threatened by comey's profile... (which helps account for at least part of the reasoning)
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/11/us/politics/trump-comey-showboat-fbi.html?ref=politics
Second... he really is the worst enemy of his own messaging. It's like when a judge put a hold don trump's travel ban, not so much for it's content but for what trump had said about it... to which trump publicly confirmed in statements later that night that the judge was right. All while trying to attack him.

It really is impressive that he can put his foot in his mouth while his head is so far up his own rear. 

It causes every member of his entourage to lose all credibility, even if they are telling the truth, because he will just undercut them moments later.

Cheers,
Andy


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 11, 2017, 12:30PM
Not from the Onion...

(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18341707_10156166790383327_3839774073271836313_n.jpg?oh=4ea685e1d3aa1e7e87bbe6e225e8aa79&oe=59C02844)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on May 11, 2017, 02:55PM
I have to wonder about all of the right wing opinion news saying, "what's the problem? Trump has the authority to do what he did. He did it. That simple. Timing and reasons are up to the president are do not need to be justified."

To be clear, he has the authority to do a lot of things as president, including nuking the entire middle east. However, at no point is any of that authority beyond the realm of question, nor is any of it absolute and can be wielded at any time for any reason with no repercussions.

And these are the very people that questioned EVERYTHING, including a great deal of made up things, about the last president? Is the GOP truly at a point that morals and standards and accountability are simply something that exists to attack the other guy and they need none themselves?

The plain and depressing illustration of it is how much more statesmanlike the congressional GOP was during Watergate.



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on May 11, 2017, 03:01PM
Second... he really is the worst enemy of his own messaging. It's like when a judge put a hold don trump's travel ban, not so much for it's content but for what trump had said about it... to which trump publicly confirmed in statements later that night that the judge was right. All while trying to attack him.

Yeah, the whole message is, This has nothing to do with the Russia probe, but Trump couldn't even stop himself from mentioning it in his letter to Comey.

The example you gave is another good example. First he said that he fired Comey on the advice of Sessions and Rosenstein, then gave a completely different rationale. He doesn't think people are smart enough to notice that he's just looking for something to say that works, and he might be right about that.

The other explanation is that insiders are saying that Rosenstein was miffed over the implication that he was the impetus for this, which he clearly was not, and threatened to resign. They're trying to 'nuance' that without completely backing off the original pretext that was created.

Anyone who falls for this BS deserves Trump as president, but I sure as hell don't.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 11, 2017, 04:00PM
The plain and depressing illustration of it is how much more statesmanlike the congressional GOP was during Watergate.

Obstruction wasn't a option for them back then.  The GOP was a powerless minority in the House (241D to 192R) and nearly so in the Senate (56D to 42R).

None-the-less I recall there were Republicans on the investigating committees who went to the mat for Richard Nixon on every point and argued every doubt in his favor down to the last detail. It wasn't called "alternate facts" back then but they had no shortage of alternate explanations.

If the GOP had been in power then, Watergate would still be just "a third-rate burglary".


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on May 11, 2017, 04:13PM
Yeah, the whole message is, This has nothing to do with the Russia probe, but Trump couldn't even stop himself from mentioning it in his letter to Comey.
 
The example you gave is another good example. First he said that he fired Comey on the advice of Sessions and Rosenstein, then gave a completely different rationale. He doesn't think people are smart enough to notice that he's just looking for something to say that works, and he might be right about that.
 
The other explanation is that insiders are saying that Rosenstein was miffed over the implication that he was the impetus for this, which he clearly was not, and threatened to resign. They're trying to 'nuance' that without completely backing off the original pretext that was created.
 
Anyone who falls for this BS deserves Trump as president, but I sure as hell don't.

It's hard to imagine how an adult could be such a horrible, transparent liar, but I have to wonder if it's not some kind of litmus test for The Donald. At least a couple of talking head types were comparing that glaringly out of place comment about having been exonerated to a 5th grader's ability to lie. It strikes me that may of The Donald's lies may be some kind of a litmus test. If you're either selectively vapid enough or truly just mentally handicapped enough to buy many of them, you're useful. If you aren't then you're potentially dangerous to them, or potentially very useful if you can make a solid show of pretending to buy them and you're so inclined.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Graham Martin on May 11, 2017, 04:29PM
The fact the system allowed Trump to become the Pres would be a huge joke if it was not so serious in terms of human survival due to the nuclear war he is so close to causing. I wonder also if it does not say something about the education and state of mind of Mr. Average America. And don't think I am not seeing similar trends with the Mr. Average Australia etc.

This latest move of Trump's in sacking Comey and his explanation of why is so transparent, the press all round the world are laughing out loud. I guess it also says something about American politicians that they have not moved to get rid of Trump despite his obvious shortcomings.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 11, 2017, 06:23PM
New Yorker cover...

(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18342681_10156168931218327_8315500077911853587_n.jpg?oh=c8d60b8a79124c20c9d23f1dcb631666&oe=597D55B8)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on May 12, 2017, 09:26AM
I just saw a theory that Trump 'traded' Comey to Wikileaks founder Assuange for huge (Bigly) amount of funds, that will be laundered through Iran.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on May 12, 2017, 09:31AM
You mean we may see Trump Hotel and Golf Resort, Qum? :)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 12, 2017, 04:38PM
from the Museum of the Hard to Believe...


(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18403152_10156171199423327_8293712700209663637_n.jpg?oh=a14368fa37d11d617fdc241f0dc7334a&oe=59B6EB1D)

It's true (http://theweek.com/speedreads/698614/lawyers-who-claim-trump-received-no-income-from-russia-work-2016-russia-law-firm-year).


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 12, 2017, 04:48PM
His tax returns would show at least some of the proof of it. The main reason he refuses to disclose them.

The tax returns themselves would be crafted to not reveal such doings.

This commentary discusses how focusing on filed tax returns misses important points...

The Trump Tax Return/Russia Letter Is Full of Holes (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/the-trump-tax-returnrussia-letter-is-full-of-holes)


Quote
...Seeing the tax returns wouldn’t even settle a lot of these questions. If I’m reading the letter correctly, the lawyers may know of information that is not reflected in Trump’s personal tax returns for the last decade and simply not mention those facts. Again, the letter specifically says “your tax returns do not reflect” not “you do not have.” This is, needless to say, a massive loophole in the assertions in the letter.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on May 12, 2017, 10:53PM
Something I don't quite understand: When Bill Clinton talked on the tarmac with Loretta Lynch, the backlash was sufficient that Loretta Lynch recused herself, essentially, from the final decision regarding the Hillary email investigation. Both said they didn't discuss the case, which you can believe or not.

But now Trump has volunteered, unprompted, that he called Comey and asked if he was being investigated. Why isn't this a big deal? After all, it was only alleged that Bill and Loretta might have discussed the pending case, whereas Trump is openly admitting he did what Clinton was only accused of. There's no question that the case could potentially involve Trump, his family and his close associates.

Can anyone explain to me why so little has been made of this?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on May 13, 2017, 05:01AM
Because there is so much more than that wrong with the whole Comey firing and how it was mishandled. FWIW, I have seen/heard multiple talking heads making a pretty big deal of it.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 13, 2017, 06:07AM
Can anyone explain to me why so little has been made of this?

The sitting President can legally ask anyone in his administration any inside question he wants and they can legally answer. That's their job, to keep the President informed.

That would be what makes it different from an EX-President (allegedly) asking for inside information.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on May 13, 2017, 07:58AM
Something I don't quite understand: When Bill Clinton talked on the tarmac with Loretta Lynch, the backlash was sufficient that Loretta Lynch recused herself, essentially, from the final decision regarding the Hillary email investigation. Both said they didn't discuss the case, which you can believe or not.
 
But now Trump has volunteered, unprompted, that he called Comey and asked if he was being investigated. Why isn't this a big deal? After all, it was only alleged that Bill and Loretta might have discussed the pending case, whereas Trump is openly admitting he did what Clinton was only accused of. There's no question that the case could potentially involve Trump, his family and his close associates.
 
Can anyone explain to me why so little has been made of this?

I don't think the problem is that so little has actually been made of it, it's that there's just too much of this kind of nonsense going on (I've been hearing a lot about it, personally, it's just been diluted by too many other current Trumpisms), so it's a huge item on a busy agenda of various violations of honor and ethics and reason and honesty ... etc. He's the "values" voters' choice after all. So people are making a big thing out of it with the resources available, except for Trumpskulls and many "values" voters of course. The Donald is a good tool for bringing out all of our true colors, but to a far greater extent than any normal human being might reach.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on May 13, 2017, 08:47AM
The sitting President can legally ask anyone in his administration any inside question he wants and they can legally answer. That's their job, to keep the President informed.

That would be what makes it different from an EX-President (allegedly) asking for inside information.

0

I agree, but to me the breaking point of that privilege would be the president asking about an investigation of himself. It comes perilously close to tampering with the investigation.

Comey apparently feels similarly--the president asked him to a private dinner, which he attended reluctantly, because it could create an impession of collusion with respect to the investigation. Trump asked him for his 'loyalty', and what, precisely, would that entail? To his credit, Comey declined to offer it, offering 'honesty' instead.

Pathetically, and typically, the president later claimed that Comey requested the meeting to appeal to retain his job, and that Comey assured him he wasn't under investigation. Is there any reason to believe this? Absolutely not. This president flagrantly lies about things that were said in open hearings, so there's no reason to believe his account of a private one.

Trump is starting to look like Nixon, without the finesse.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 13, 2017, 09:50AM


I agree, but to me the breaking point of that privilege would be the president asking about an investigation of himself. It comes perilously close to tampering with the investigation.

And I agree with that.  It's like the age old question, "who polices the police"?

But there is great reluctance to charge a President.  The only time I can recall a President paying an actual legal penalty for conduct in office was when Bill Clinton when took a plea deal (http://www.nytimes.com/2001/01/19/politics/clinton-reaches-deal-to-avoid-indictment-and-to-give-up-law-license.html) to avoid a perjury prosecution for statements he made in the Paula Jones lawsuit.

But that's also the only time I can recall anyone pinning a chargeable crime on a President.  It's typically a flunky, like a Scooter Libby, who takes the fall.

Note that that Clinton action only occurred after years of activity in the case, so there's still time for something to happen if actual law-breaking can be documented. 



Quote
Trump is starting to look like Nixon, without the finesse.

Makes Nixon statesman-like.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on May 13, 2017, 02:46PM
But there is great reluctance to charge a President.

President Clouseau is making that less and less true every day though.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 13, 2017, 02:52PM
from the "Why Are We Just Finding Out About This Now?" desk:

"...Trump’s Atlantic City, New Jersey casino, the Trump Taj Mahal, was hit with a $10 million civil penalty by [the US Treasury’s Financial Crimes Enforcement Network] in 2015 for “willful and repeated violations” of anti-money laundering requirements..."

Treasury’s Financial Crimes Unit To Share Trump Team Records For Russia Probe (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/treasury-department-fincen-turn-over-financial-records-trump-financial)

These rules seem to be about reporting certain foreign party and/or large amount transactions, even in what appear to be completely legal events in addition to obligations to report things that appear suspicious.

You can see a list of suspicious activities on page 43 of this PDF presentation (https://www.fincen.gov/sites/default/files/shared/TheNewFinCENSAR-RecordedPresentation.pdf)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: bhcordova on May 15, 2017, 09:21AM
But, he's pro-life (he said so) and he's not Hillary!  What do you not understand about that?  Nothing else matters.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on May 15, 2017, 09:31AM
But, he's pro-life (he said so) and he's not Hillary!  What do you not understand about that?  Nothing else matters.
Guess putin isn't hillary either, so no problems working closely with him either...


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: bhcordova on May 15, 2017, 09:38AM
Now you are beginning to understand!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 15, 2017, 09:59AM
from the "Why Are We Just Finding Out About This Now?" desk:

"...Trump’s Atlantic City, New Jersey casino, the Trump Taj Mahal, was hit with a $10 million civil penalty by [the US Treasury’s Financial Crimes Enforcement Network] in 2015 for “willful and repeated violations” of anti-money laundering requirements..."

I have since found out that this violation was reported on in 2015.

I guess it was just taken as yet another in a long list of reasons why Donald Trump could never get the GOP nomination and thus why it wasn't necessary to scrutinize him closely.   :/


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on May 15, 2017, 10:22AM
I hear "Why are you rooting for him to fail?? Give him a chance!"

I don't want him to fail. I just see him doing it miserably. He is unbalanced and rash. He is spiteful and hateful and he carries grudges. I fear that his posturing towards N. Korea could start a nuclear war.

KJU is a lunatic. Something clearly must be done to contain him, but T is badgering and antagonizing him. Work closer with Beijing. China could tighten or stop the flow of oil and other resources to help rein in NK.

And then there are the election shenanigans, the financial improprieties, and the ethical violations, etc.

I watch the investigations very closely. It is getting very interesting. I can only hope that there is enough evidence to charge Trump and his minions with collusion. He needs to be gone.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 15, 2017, 10:25AM


KJU is a lunatic. Something clearly must be done to contain him, but T is badgering and antagonizing him. Work closer with Beijing. China could tighten or stop the flow of oil and other resources to help rein in NK.

China gave Trump some trademarks he's been wanting and now he's decided not to inconvenience them too much.  :rolleyes:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: elmsandr on May 15, 2017, 10:45AM
I hear "Why are you rooting for him to fail?? Give him a chance!"

I don't want him to fail. I just see him doing it miserably. He is unbalanced and rash. He is spiteful and hateful and he carries grudges. I fear that his posturing towards N. Korea could start a nuclear war.

KJU is a lunatic. Something clearly must be done to contain him, but T is badgering and antagonizing him. Work closer with Beijing. China could tighten or stop the flow of oil and other resources to help rein in NK.

And then there are the election shenanigans, the financial improprieties, and the ethical violations, etc.

I watch the investigations very closely. It is getting very interesting. I can only hope that there is enough evidence to charge Trump and his minions with collusion. He needs to be gone.

Fun thing there...  If they have even three brain cells to rub together, there will be no evidence of collusion.  Heck, much like with campaigns and superPACs, there is no coordination or collusion, but they work together just fine.  That said, I'm not sure anybody there has three brain cells to rub together.  They really seem to not get 'it' at all.  They thought they would be congratulated for firing Comey!  Really?  In what world?  That being said, by stating that he wanted to fire Comey for the Russia investigation, that's an actual impeachable thing.  Obstruction of justice.  Add in the tweet at Comey later for intimidation of a witness and he's given all the case he ever needs to give to a house that isn't just a lap dog.

Cheers,
Andy


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on May 15, 2017, 10:48AM
But he's already claimed he could shoot somebody on Park Avenue in cold blood and not see any retribution.  Clearly the sign of a balanced leader, no? :razz:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 15, 2017, 02:51PM
Russian spies to be laid off soon as their skills are apparently no longer needed to get secret stuff out of the White House.


WaPo: Trump Revealed Highly Classified Info To Russia’s Top Diplomat And Envoy (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/report-trump-revealed-classified-information-russian-officials-white-house)


We're paying him but I don't think he's working for us.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on May 15, 2017, 09:20PM
Bah!!

Trump is a bag of ground nuts.  Just random nutty stuff.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: bonenick on May 15, 2017, 11:31PM
We're paying him but I don't think he's working for us.

I am not sure that this is intentional. I am not sure that he knows who is he working for. Just stupid and inconsiderate.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on May 16, 2017, 04:16AM
I'm not sure, but I doubt his IQ is below average. His overconfidence and utter lack of self-awareness, and the fact just under half of us were stupid and/or actually consider him the better of the two real choices given put him into an office galactically beyond his abilities are what make him do such a good impression.
 
In other words, he's not so much stupid as he is a fool.
  - or -
Despite appearances, technically he's not an idiot, but he can certainly be called a dumbarse.
 
 --
 
I've just adopted another sadly appropriate title for our cartoon president--Jester in Chief.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 16, 2017, 05:38AM
...technically he's not an idiot ...

2020 bumper sticker!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: bhcordova on May 16, 2017, 07:06AM
We're paying him but I don't think he's working for us.

As always, he's working for himself.  He doesn't care about governing, he's still figuring out how to line his pockets with money from the treasury.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Bruce the budgie on May 16, 2017, 07:56AM
I've just adopted another sadly appropriate title for our cartoon president--Jester in Chief.

Yes, a cartoon villain. It would be funny if he weren't so mobbed up. He may or may not realize how far in over his head he is.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: altobone64 on May 16, 2017, 08:28AM
Sorry, Folks, But Donald Trump Is Everything We Deserve

https://www.commondreams.org/views/2017/05/13/sorry-folks-donald-trump-everything-we-deserve



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: altobone64 on May 16, 2017, 08:41AM
This made my day:
https://www.commondreams.org/news/2017/05/16/pay-trump-bribes-here-projected-presidents-dc-hotel


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 16, 2017, 10:00AM
It's getting to be a predictable ritual.

1) Reports leak out about Trump doing some crazy thing.
2) His staff circles the wagons to construct some plausible denial. 
3) Then he gives an interview where he concedes he did the thing and is proud of it.

Trump Yanks The Rug Out From Under His Defenders In Spectacular Fashion (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/trump-yanks-rug-out-from-under-surrogates-sharing-classified-info)


Quote
Supporters and surrogates of President Donald Trump woke up Tuesday morning to another kick in the teeth.

After working overtime Monday to quell a political firestorm ignited by reports that the President disclosed highly classified information to senior Russian diplomats, Trump promptly threw everyone who came to his defense under the bus, acknowledging in a pair of tweets that he shared “facts” with his visitors from the Kremlin.


I recall the Reagan years were full of steps 1 and 2.

Reagan would ramble through a press conference and say something that was contrary to actual policy or politically damaging, and within an hour or two the WH Press office would release a statement about "what the President really meant."

But that would usually contain it, without a re-eruption later.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 16, 2017, 12:59PM
Erick Erickson is pretty much a conservative crank (https://twitter.com/ewerickson/status/1665525087?lang=en), but has tried to be the thinking man's conservative crank by never getting on the Trump train...

I Know One of the Sources (http://theresurgent.com/i-know-one-of-the-sources/)

Quote
...What sets this story apart for me, at least, is that I know one of the sources. And the source is solidly supportive of President Trump, or at least has been and was during Campaign 2016. But the President will not take any internal criticism, no matter how politely it is given. He does not want advice, cannot be corrected, and is too insecure to see any constructive feedback as anything other than an attack...


Quote
I am told that what the President did is actually far worse than what is being reported. The President does not seem to realize or appreciate that his bragging can undermine relationships with our allies and with human intelligence sources. He also does not seem to appreciate that his loose lips can get valuable assets in the field killed.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 16, 2017, 05:07PM
I tell ya... when I was a boy you got more than one night's sleep between scandals.

Watergate simmered for about a year and a half. Same with Iran Contra. Monicagate ran almost a year.

But with Trump we're getting a new potentially indictable offense every day.

NYT: Trump Asked Comey To Shut Down Investigation Into Michael Flynn (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/nyt-trump-asked-comey-shut-down-flynn-investigation)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Graham Martin on May 16, 2017, 05:50PM
On the issue of indictment, I'm not so sure you can.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/clinton/stories/legal020198.htm

Notice the date on that article. It's not about Trump.

In any case, I don't think anyone in politics has got the balls.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on May 16, 2017, 05:51PM
If there was ever any doubt

18 U.S. Code § 1505 - Obstruction of proceedings before departments, agencies, and committees:

Whoever, with intent to avoid, evade, prevent, or obstruct compliance, in whole or in part, with any civil investigative demand duly and properly made under the Antitrust Civil Process Act, willfully withholds, misrepresents, removes from any place, conceals, covers up, destroys, mutilates, alters, or by other means falsifies any documentary material, answers to written interrogatories, or oral testimony, which is the subject of such demand; or attempts to do so or solicits another to do so; or

Whoever corruptly, or by threats or force, or by any threatening letter or communication influences, obstructs, or impedes or endeavors to influence, obstruct, or impede the due and proper administration of the law under which any pending proceeding is being had before any department or agency of the United States, or the due and proper exercise of the power of inquiry under which any inquiry or investigation is being had by either House, or any committee of either House or any joint committee of the Congress—

Shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years or, if the offense involves international or domestic terrorism (as defined in section 2331), imprisoned not more than 8 years, or both.
_________________________________________________ ___________________________________

Unless those spineless Republican Congressmen grow a pair and press the issue, they have lost what little credibility they have left. As far as I can tell, they are more worried about their own careers.

I've come to the conclusion that our government is a f*****g joke. Laws are supposed to apply to everyone, not just the lowly citizens


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 16, 2017, 07:11PM
I'll admit, US Presidents do get away with a lot.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on May 16, 2017, 07:41PM
They impeached Clinton on way less.

I wonder what Pence has in his closet that makes the Republicans prefer Trump? :dontknow:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 16, 2017, 08:27PM
I'm wondering how President Pence is going to explain away his complete 100% support for Trump prior to pushing him off the train.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 16, 2017, 08:41PM
(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/s480x480/18527868_10156188659188327_1231729274070202573_n.jpg?oh=bcd937736d24e684ad05126cb26f236d&oe=597CABDC)

Yes, that was a real thing...

Texas Governor Deploys State Guard To Stave Off Obama Takeover (http://www.npr.org/sections/itsallpolitics/2015/05/02/403865824/texas-governor-deploys-state-guard-to-stave-off-obama-takeover)





Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on May 17, 2017, 04:56AM
(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-0/s480x480/18527868_10156188659188327_1231729274070202573_n.jpg?oh=bcd937736d24e684ad05126cb26f236d&oe=597CABDC)[/url]

Yeah, and I expect there's a statistically significant correlation there, and a pretty definitive concomitant causal variable.
 
Such is life among human brain owners.
 
Yup.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on May 17, 2017, 10:10AM
Useful image ... at least for a while yet--still probably useful after too though:
 
(https://images.dailykos.com/images/333109/story_image/trump-baby-tweets.jpg?1480392797)
 
No idea about the link pictured by the way--great image, but I'm not familiar with that outfit.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 17, 2017, 10:19AM
If you should ever wonder what qualifies as "high crimes and misdemeanors" for an impeachable offense, the bar got set pretty low in 1868 for Andrew Johnson.

One of the articles of impeachment was, "Making three speeches with intent to show disrespect for the Congress among the citizens of the United States."   :D


Even though he only had one year left in his term they were eager to get rid of him because he had fired Edward Stanton, the Sec of War, whose control of the military was essential to enforcing Reconstruction in the South.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on May 17, 2017, 10:36AM
What they got Clinton on was "obstruction of justice".  He lied to Congress about his affair with Monica Lewinsky.  And for this you can get impeached.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: altobone64 on May 17, 2017, 11:15AM
(http://i1244.photobucket.com/albums/gg569/3bf3bf/C__fByRUwAAtXdL_zpsstultpmu.jpg) (http://s1244.photobucket.com/user/3bf3bf/media/C__fByRUwAAtXdL_zpsstultpmu.jpg.html)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: ddickerson on May 17, 2017, 11:21AM
What they got Clinton on was "obstruction of justice".  He lied to Congress about his affair with Monica Lewinsky.  And for this you can get impeached.

Correction:
Clinton was impeached for lying under oath in a court of law.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 17, 2017, 12:47PM
Here are the Clinton articles of impeachment (https://www.congress.gov/bill/105th-congress/house-resolution/611/text)

Article I accuses him of lying under oath in grand jury testimony.

Article II accuses him of encouraging others to lie under oath, allowing others to lie and tricking others to give inaccurate testimony.


However, in the preambles to the specific charges they assert that these acts are significant because they amounted to "impeding the administration of justice" in violation of his duty to enforce the law.


So ... Impeached for Obstruction of justice, yes. Lying under oath, yes. Lying to Congress, no.


Of course, he was acquitted in the Senate Trial.




Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on May 17, 2017, 01:23PM
Here are the Clinton articles of impeachment (https://www.congress.gov/bill/105th-congress/house-resolution/611/text)

Article I accuses him of lying under oath in grand jury testimony.

Article II accuses him of encouraging others to lie under oath, allowing others to lie and tricking others to give inaccurate testimony.


However, in the preambles to the specific charges they assert that these acts are significant because they amounted to "impeding the administration of justice" in violation of his duty to enforce the law.


I think it is a slam dunk to assert that Trump impeded the administration of justice himself by sacking Comey while he is conducting an investigation.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on May 17, 2017, 03:08PM
I'm hearing Rosenstein just appointed ex-FBI Director Robert Mueller as an independent counsel to oversee the Russia investigation! Can't find verification on-line yet.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on May 17, 2017, 03:10PM
Here it is.....

https://www.wsj.com/articles/former-fbi-director-robert-mueller-named-special-counsel-for-russia-probe-1495058494


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on May 17, 2017, 04:34PM
NPR is probably going to be covering it most of this evening.

Note that Sessions is blocked from interfering since he may be under investigation.

I would like all of this to be investigated fully.  If Trump is guilty of something, he should be punished.  I think the best course for now is to work to elect Democratic Congressmen and Senators in 2018.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 17, 2017, 04:57PM
Special Counsel appointed. 

I can't wait for 3AM.

But ya know... what it really means is that we're in for about two years of people saying, "I can't comment while there's an on-going investigation."


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on May 17, 2017, 05:09PM
But ya know... what it really means is that we're in for about two years of people saying, "I can't comment while there's an on-going investigation."
Only if they're intelligent enough to...

which so far, current people on twitter aren't smart enough to do.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 17, 2017, 05:31PM
Again with the TPM... (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/thoughts-on-the-special-counsel-appointment)

Quote
About the decision itself, this was Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein’s call. Initial reports say he did not consult with the White House about the decision and had finalized the order with his signature before notifying the White House. He apparently gave the White House about 30 minutes heads up...


Quote
That is about the absolute minimal courtesy Rosenstein could have provided.
:D

Quote
I still think Rosenstein deserves all the reputational damage he incurred over the last ten days or so. He knew what he was participating in when he involved himself in the Comey firing. What he probably didn’t realize was that Trump would essentially blame him for the decision. How much this is payback, an attempt to repair his reputation or simply put things right, you’re as good a judge as I am.

This has got to make for some very awkward conversations in the break room.





Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 17, 2017, 07:07PM
 Matt Drudge (http://thehill.com/homenews/media/332774-drudge-warns-of-big-danger-from-trump-admin-leaks) notices the difference in leadership skills between President Obama and President Trump.

Quote
"We never got 1 damaging leak out of Obama White House staff in 8 yrs," Drudge tweeted Wednesday.
"Under Trump, they appear hourly. BIG DANGER: Small leaks sink ships!!"







Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Graham Martin on May 17, 2017, 07:53PM
I have been thinking the moves against Trump on impeachment would not succeed. But now that stocks on Wall Street have dropped sharply due to investors worrying about the latest crisis, maybe the politicians will realise they finally have to act.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on May 17, 2017, 08:04PM
All very exciting.  This is what I've been hoping for.  Even the GOP are beginning to buckle under the strain of Trump's wanton disregard for law, process and decency.  I don't think it will take 2 years.  I think the US (and the rest of the world) has had enough.

Am I mistaken or did Putin agree to cooperate?

I think even DD has had a slight shift in heart.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 17, 2017, 09:53PM
I bet what we end up with in the end is something like the Hillary exoneration... extremely careless, poor handling of materials, naive in their contacts with foreigners... but no actual laws broken.

Unless the money laundering thing is real.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on May 17, 2017, 11:17PM
I have a sneaking suspicion that when they start following the money they will discover that a lot of Trump's real estate dealings were with oligarch banks in Russia laundering money.  Also some of his cabinet will be implicated.  I think the most innocent of them is probably Sessions.

Trump is probably going to get his head handed to him by the Israelis if they confirm that the secrets he revealed to the Russians were given by Israel.  It's one thing to spill our intelligence, but to spill somebody else's without permission is a major diplomacy blunder.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: B0B on May 18, 2017, 04:34AM
Trump is probably going to get his head handed to him by the Israelis if they confirm that the secrets he revealed to the Russians were given by Israel.  It's one thing to spill our intelligence, but to spill somebody else's without permission is a major diplomacy blunder.
Doubtful. For all of our allies, Israel is probably the one that needs us and our funds and supplies the most. I don't think they can  really retaliate too much without risking that. Especially with a man who has proven he has the emotional maturity of a middle schooler.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 18, 2017, 08:18AM
Making the rounds...

(quote from President Trump's recent commencement address at the Coast Guard Academy)

(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/18491435_10154709407447865_5243697809928681822_o.jpg?oh=906c450c5495d5466e3592b3e5cf9a0b&oe=59AD9632)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on May 18, 2017, 08:33AM
Making the rounds...

(quote from President Trump's recent commencement address at the Coast Guard Academy)

(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/18491435_10154709407447865_5243697809928681822_o.jpg?oh=906c450c5495d5466e3592b3e5cf9a0b&oe=59AD9632)


This works here too.

(https://images.dailykos.com/images/333109/story_image/trump-baby-tweets.jpg?1480392797)
 


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on May 18, 2017, 09:33AM
As he wallows in his delusions of grandeur, he should also look at the attacks on Abraham Lincoln.

Source: http://www.historynet.com/abraham-lincoln-takes-the-heat.htm

Quote
Such cartoons usually depicted Lincoln as a country bumpkin with a wild thatch of uncombed hair, clad in ill-fitting pantaloons and open-necked shirts, and wielding a log rail to ward off serious inquiries into his supposedly dangerous views on racial equality. Currier & Ives of New York may have crafted the quintessential 1860 campaign cartoon when they portrayed The Rail Candidate astride a log rail labeled Republican National Platform, being carried to the White House by supporters. It is true I have Split Rails, the uncomfortable nominee declares, but I begin to feel as if this Rail would split me, it’s the hardest stick I ever straddled. Coarser variations on the theme depicted him erecting log-rail camouflage to conceal niggers in the woodpile–metaphorically minimizing attention on the stormy slavery issue by focusing voters instead on his inspiring ascent from a log cabin to the White House.




Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 18, 2017, 10:00AM

 
(https://images.dailykos.com/images/333109/story_image/trump-baby-tweets.jpg?1480392797)
 
No idea about the link pictured by the way--great image, but I'm not familiar with that outfit.


I'll note that "NewsCorpse" is an allusion to Rupert Murdoch's "News Corporation" AKA "News Corp"


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 18, 2017, 12:43PM
Executive summary of what their voters believe...

The Flight 93 Election (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/17/opinion/flight-93-election-trump-conservatives.html?action=click&pgtype=Homepage&clickSource=story-heading&module=opinion-c-col-right-region&region=opinion-c-col-right-region&WT.nav=opinion-c-col-right-region&_r=0)

Quote
In case you’ve had the pleasure of forgetting, “The Flight 93 Election” was the title of a portentous essay, published last September under a Roman pseudonym in The Claremont Review of Books, that declared the stakes for the United States in 2016 thus: “Charge the cockpit or you die.”

In the lurid imagination of the author — it turned out to be Michael Anton, who now holds a senior job in the White House — the American republic was Flight 93, a plane deliberately set on a course for destruction by liberals and their accomplices in the Republican establishment and the globalist “Davoisie.” As for Donald Trump, Anton implied that he was the political equivalent of Todd Beamer, the heroic passenger who cried “Let’s Roll” in a desperate bid for salvation.


Quote
...To reread “The Flight 93 Election” today is to understand what has gone wrong not only with the Trump presidency, but also with so much of the conservative movement writ large. In a word, it’s become unhinged.

To imply, as Anton did, that Barack Obama, for all his shortcomings, was Ziad Jarrah, Flight 93’s lead hijacker, is vile. To suppose that we’d all be dead if Hillary Clinton, for all her flaws, had been elected is hallucinatory. To argue that the United States, for all its problems, was the equivalent of a doomed aircraft is absurd. To suggest that Donald Trump, a man who has sacrificed nothing in his life for anyone or anything, is the worthy moral heir to the Flight 93 passengers is a travesty.

Quote
It is the mark of every millenarian fanatic to assume that the world stands on the verge of a precipice, and that only radical or violent action can save it. That’s the premise of Anton’s essay. It’s also the kind of thinking that has inspired extremists from time immemorial, including the people who grabbed the planes on 9/11.



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 18, 2017, 01:47PM
It's starting already.  The premise for a long stretch of "I/we/they can't comment on an ongoing investigation" has been laid...

Graham’s Takeaway From Briefing With Deputy AG: Russia Probe Is Now Criminal (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/dc/graham-takeaway-rosenstein-briefing-russia-probe-criminal)

Quote
...Graham, who sits on the Senate Judiciary Committee, argued that Rosenstein’s appointment of former FBI Director Robert Mueller as special counsel in charge of the probe would have the effect of limiting Congress’ ability to carry out parallel investigations.

“What does that mean for the Congress? I find it hard to subpoena records of somebody like Mr. Flynn who may be subject to a criminal investigation because he has a right not to incriminate himself,” he said, referring to Trump’s ousted national security adviser Michael Flynn.



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: altobone64 on May 19, 2017, 01:35PM

I'll note that "NewsCorpse" is an allusion to Rupert Murdoch's "News Corporation" AKA "News Corp"

Roger Ailes is a news corpse:
https://www.commondreams.org/views/2017/05/19/roger-ailes-was-one-worst-americans-ever


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 19, 2017, 02:53PM
Today's merriment (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/trump-russian-officials-nut-job-comey)...

Quote
An unnamed American official read out a summary of the meeting to the Times.

“I just fired the head of the F.B.I. He was crazy, a real nut job,” Trump said, according to the document summarizing the meeting. “I faced great pressure because of Russia. That’s taken off.”

“I’m not under investigation,” the President reportedly told Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov and Russian Ambassador to the U.S. Sergey Kislyak in a May 10 meeting in the Oval Office.

Press Secretary Sean Spicer did not deny the accuracy of Trump’s quotes in a statement to the Times.


I think I can guess how Trump lost a billion dollars in the 90s.

The warning signs before and during the deal were probably all apparent to anyone with sense, but no one with sense was allowed in his circle, not if they told him anything he didn't want to hear.

He seems to seriously imagine that if he kills the messenger, the problem goes away too.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Graham Martin on May 19, 2017, 04:13PM
Today's merriment (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/trump-russian-officials-nut-job-comey)...


I think I can guess how Trump lost a billion dollars in the 90s.

The warning signs before and during the deal were probably all apparent to anyone with sense, but no one with sense was allowed in his circle, not if they told him anything he didn't want to hear.

He seems to seriously imagine that if he kills the messenger, the problem goes away too.

I think you are absolutely correct. It always worried me that so many people thought Trump would be a good President, based on the fact that he was a successful businessman. I even read that view many times on this forum. The reason I did not agree was because during the election campaign he came across as a complete idiot with no interpersonal skills. He was much like the several completely hopeless managers I encountered in my business career, who were in charge of successful businesses and given credit for that. Whereas, it was purely circumstance (market conditions, high investment, luck, etc.) that created the successful businesses and not the competence of their management. :rolleyes:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on May 19, 2017, 09:56PM
I think you are absolutely correct. It always worried me that so many people thought Trump would be a good President, based on the fact that he was a successful businessman.

He has managed to deplete his fathers wealth substantially.  His business acumen can be summed up in the word 'squat'.  Let's for the moment forget his multiple bankruptcy claims.  The only thing that has revived him is his family's name.  It apparently holds sway in certain circles.

I even read that view many times on this forum.

You need to heed from who that view comes.


The reason I did not agree was because during the election campaign he came across as a complete idiot with no interpersonal skills.

My observation exactly.  Which brings us to the special point ... who voted for him?  It seems, out of the trombone playing community anyway, less than .01% are willing to admit to voting for him.  Even then, the only reasons we can verify is that he's pro life (he said so) and he's not Hillary (Thanks Billy).

He was much like the several completely hopeless managers I encountered in my business career, who were in charge of successful businesses and given credit for that. Whereas, it was purely circumstance (market conditions, high investment, luck, etc.) that created the successful businesses and not the competence of their management. :rolleyes:

I'm sorry your experience with management was like that. It's not supposed to be that way, but I will admit that some do get promoted to their level of incompetence in some circumstances.  Still - it is not supposed to be that way.  If it happened where you work/worked then I can only offer my condolences.  This sort of thing can work its way into the culture of a workplace and make the lives of the real producers miserable.  It does not always have to be that way.  I can personally assure you of that, for what good that does you now.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 21, 2017, 09:06AM
Candidate Trump...

(https://scontent.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18582059_10156201202578327_4615515749503462231_n.jpg?oh=b554e2c5984cf0c8624ecf0b3a68e699&oe=59BCDDCC)


President Trump...

(https://www.nbr.co.nz/sites/default/files/styles/article_full_300w/public/story_imgs/Trump-Saudi-420.jpg?itok=DQYBcfJu)




Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on May 21, 2017, 09:13AM
Wonder if he realizes that the medal belongs to the People of the United States and he can't take it with him or hock it. :razz:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on May 21, 2017, 02:27PM
Turns out when we say President Clouseau/The Donald acts like a child, we're probably being unfair to children (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/20/opinion/sunday/4-year-olds-children-trump-gopnik.html).


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 21, 2017, 02:59PM
Analysis piece, reading between the lines of what has been revealed so far about the investigations.

“Financial Crimes” And Why Trump is Right to Worry (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/financial-crimes-and-why-trump-is-right-to-worry)

Quote
...What jumped out to me was that the authors twice invoked investigators’ focus on “financial crimes.”...


...But even if you take the Russia/former Soviet Union connection with its geopolitical dynamics out of the equation, you simply can’t read over these deals and not see that Trump and his crew just play way out on the outer fringe of legality at best. At best. People who have done or subsequently did time in the US or other countries repeatedly appear in the picture. So do people from organized crime. A lot.


...Then there’s another level of it. Even apart from big bad acts and corrupt deals, look at the stuff David Fahrenthold dug up on the Trump Foundation and his Potemkin charitable giving. Beyond issues of possible illegality, the big takeaway there was that Trump operates with a seemingly almost total disregard for rule-following or even a lot of elementary record keeping.


...But even with a basic investigative reporting background, you can’t work through even part of Trump’s business history without finding numerous ventures that look like they would not survive first contact with real prosecutorial scrutiny. 

We know that has happened once already.  Trump University did not survive contact with prosecutorial scrutiny.




Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: altobone64 on May 21, 2017, 03:17PM
President Mike Pence? Dems should be 'careful what they wish for', experts say:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/may/21/mike-pence-president-democrats-conservatives

As much fun as it would be to see Trump impeached and tossed out on the street, I find the prospect of President Pence to be far more frightening.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 21, 2017, 04:05PM
President Mike Pence? Dems should be 'careful what they wish for', experts say:
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/may/21/mike-pence-president-democrats-conservatives

As much fun as it would be to see Trump impeached and tossed out on the street, I find the prospect of President Pence to be far more frightening.

I believe the complete Dem fantasy includes Pence being sunk by this too...

“Trump's Presidency Ended May 9th” – Hatch Getting Security Briefings (https://patribotics.blog/2017/05/13/trumps-presidency-ended-may-9th-hatch-getting-security-briefings/)

No, I don't regard that article as well-founded. It makes some preposterous assertions, like saying that having the Press Secretary tell a lie is a violation of the Constitution.  :rolleyes:



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on May 22, 2017, 03:31AM
The other problem with the 'Trump Impeachment Fantasy' is that it would put American democracy in peril.

Of course only 40% or so of Americans still support Trump, but they occupy large, mostly uneducated swatches of America. Think how delusional you had to be to support Trump, then think how delusional you have to be to continue supporting now that he's presented us with his dog's breakfast of a presidency.

Now remember that these people have lots of guns, and aren't going to blithely admit, "I voted for a complete dunce." They're going to think that the establishment GOP and Dems and the liberal media rose up as one and cast out our savior because they didn't want the swamp drained. Lord only knows what they'll do.

Please, please, let this guy finish his term, and just hope to hell he doesn't go any further off the rails.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Baron von Bone on May 22, 2017, 04:09AM
The other problem with the 'Trump Impeachment Fantasy' is that it would put American democracy in peril.
 
Of course only 40% or so of Americans still support Trump, but they occupy large, mostly uneducated swatches of America. Think how delusional you had to be to support Trump, then think how delusional you have to be to continue supporting now that he's presented us with his dog's breakfast of a presidency.
 
Now remember that these people have lots of guns, and aren't going to blithely admit, "I voted for a complete dunce." They're going to think that the establishment GOP and Dems and the liberal media rose up as one and cast out our savior because they didn't want the swamp drained. Lord only knows what they'll do.
 
Please, please, let this guy finish his term, and just hope to hell he doesn't go any further off the rails.

I live down here--outside of Athens (not actually within the deep blue puddle but in the vast red desert just outside of it), and I fear my "neighbors" as a jury, not as gun wielders though. Being knuckleheaded and being violent are two very, very different things. My actual neighbors are all solid--almost all Trump voters, a few actual Trump supporters, and none of them are dangerous if you're not attacking them or their children ... or their pets.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on May 22, 2017, 09:04AM
It'd be easy for Trump to step down due to health concerns. The stress he is under must be massive. He's 70 and he doesn't strike me as a particularly healthy (bad diet, sedentary, me exercise but for golf) guy.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Piano man on May 22, 2017, 12:17PM

I live down here--outside of Athens (not actually within the deep blue puddle but in the vast red desert just outside of it), and I fear my "neighbors" as a jury, not as gun wielders though. Being knuckleheaded and being violent are two very, very different things. My actual neighbors are all solid--almost all Trump voters, a few actual Trump supporters, and none of them are dangerous if you're not attacking them or their children ... or their pets.

Many of my friends voted for Trump, and they don't seem violent, either. But it doesn't take many, and it's easy to get people riled up, and there's a tipping point where previously docile people get sucked into violent movements. Just let the guy pretend to be president for a while and fix it at the ballot box.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 23, 2017, 01:48PM
Donald Trump has found the Loc-Nar!

(https://img.washingtonpost.com/wp-apps/imrs.php?src=https://img.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp-content/uploads/sites/21/2017/05/trumporb.jpg&w=480)



That can only mean one thing... "Heavy Metal III"!

https://www.youtube.com/v/B_MzWF8YLhY


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: bhcordova on May 23, 2017, 02:14PM
ROTFLMKPAO!


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 23, 2017, 02:51PM
It'd be easy for Trump to step down due to health concerns. The stress he is under must be massive. He's 70 and he doesn't strike me as a particularly healthy (bad diet, sedentary, me exercise but for golf) guy.

A week after he voluntarily resigned, he'd be tweeting that he was forced to, by the "deep state."


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 24, 2017, 11:02AM
Below 40% approval for 11 days, the longest stretch so far.


(http://www.brilliantisland.com/images/trumpApproval.JPG)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: slide advantage on May 24, 2017, 11:03AM
Below 40% approval for 11 days, the longest stretch so far.


(http://www.brilliantisland.com/images/trumpApproval.JPG)

And of course, it is all Obama's fault  :rolleyes:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 25, 2017, 10:31AM
But if you look at the trend lines, he's really doing quite well...

(http://www.brilliantisland.com/images/TrumpTrendlines.jpg)


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on May 25, 2017, 12:09PM
Classy guy.

https://youtu.be/4otCS3FJxas


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BillO on May 25, 2017, 01:51PM
Classy guy.

https://youtu.be/4otCS3FJxas
Just an revered statesman putting America's best foot forward  :rolleyes:

How is he being tolerated?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on May 25, 2017, 02:15PM
He's just following his motto: "America First" (get outta my way, peasant!) :/


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on May 25, 2017, 02:26PM
Making America grate again.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 25, 2017, 02:39PM
Just an revered statesman putting America's best foot forward  :rolleyes:

How is he being tolerated?

Past Presidents have always been gracious enough to at least pretend that they were one among equals at these things but the US is still the 600 pound gorilla that you pretty much have to let stand anywhere he wants to.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: BGuttman on May 25, 2017, 03:07PM
Past Presidents have always been gracious enough to at least pretend that they were one among equals at these things but the US is still the 600 pound gorilla that you pretty much have to let stand anywhere he wants to.

Wow.  What an accurate description of our Fearless Leader :razz:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on May 25, 2017, 03:53PM
Our President is an unadulterated ass.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: gregs70 on May 25, 2017, 06:54PM
Our President is an unadulterated ass.


I bet he has adulterated at least once  :pant:


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Russ White on May 25, 2017, 07:00PM
I bet he has adulterated at least once  :pant:

Well, there's that.....


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 25, 2017, 07:41PM
The Fix Is In; Nato Is Out (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/the-fix-is-in-nato-is-out)


Quote
...Trump also declined to pledge his support for Article 5 of the North Atlantic Treaty, the provision that commits all members states – but most importantly the US – to defend members who are attacked. Article 5 isn’t a key part of NATO. It’s the cornerstone. In many respects it is NATO.

Meanwhile, a report in der Spiegel suggests Trump harshly attacked Germany and its export practices in a meeting of NATO/EU leaders. His team also created confusion among their EU interlocutors by appearing not to understand that EU member states only make trade deals as a group.
Quote

...But this cluster of signs and provocations suggests strongly that we are still in the same place, still in a position where the President of the United States is actively seeking to undermine NATO and – through different modalities and for slightly different reasons – the EU as well.

Each of these aims, each of these goals lines up more or less perfectly with the strategic ambitions of the Russian Federation, which sees NATO as a bulwark of Western/US military strength hemming Russia in behind borderlands it sees as within its proper sphere of influence...


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on May 25, 2017, 07:47PM
More buffoonery:

President Donald Trump threatened to stop German car sales in the US during a meeting with European officials in Brussels on Thursday, German publication Der Spiegel first reported.

Trump said he would stop German automakers from selling "millions of cars" in the US, Spiegel reported, calling Germans "very bad."

Spiegel reports that it learned of Trump's comments from participants in the meeting.

Trump threatened to impose a hefty import tax of 35% on German cars coming into the US in January, Reuters reported at the time.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 26, 2017, 11:00AM
leaks from the "deep state"


Exclusive: NSA Chief Admits Donald Trump Colluded With Russia
When will Admiral Rogers say publicly what he told his agency’s workforce? (http://observer.com/2017/05/mike-rogers-nsa-chief-admits-trump-colluded-with-russia/)

Quote
This week’s town hall event [by NSA Director Rodgers], which was broadcast to [NSA] facilities worldwide, was therefore met with surprise and anticipation by the NSA workforce, and Rogers did not disappoint. I have spoken with several NSA officials who witnessed the director’s talk and I’m reporting their firsthand accounts, which corroborate each other, on condition of anonymity.

In his town hall talk, Rogers reportedly admitted that President Trump asked him to discredit the FBI and James Comey, which the admiral flatly refused to do. As Rogers explained, he informed the commander in chief, “I know you won’t like it, but I have to tell what I have seen”—a probable reference to specific intelligence establishing collusion between the Kremlin and Team Trump.

Rogers then added that such SIGINT exists, and it is damning. He stated, “There is no question that we [meaning NSA] have evidence of election involvement and questionable contacts with the Russians.” Although Rogers did not cite the specific intelligence he was referring to, agency officials with direct knowledge have informed me that DIRNSA was obviously referring to a series of SIGINT reports from 2016 based on intercepts of communications between known Russian intelligence officials and key members of Trump’s campaign, in which they discussed methods of damaging Hillary Clinton.


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: Ellrod on May 26, 2017, 01:31PM
The link is to the Observer.  Didn't that belong to Jared Kushner?


Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 26, 2017, 01:38PM
The link is to the Observer.  Didn't that belong to Jared Kushner?

Yes, according to Wikipedia.  He is ostensibly divested from his publishing holdings.



Title: Re: Our unbalanced POTUS
Post by: robcat2075 on May 26, 2017, 08:57PM
The Trump/Russia Story Just Got A Lot Darker (http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/the-trumprussia-story-just-got-a-lot-darker)

Quote
...Put simply, in secret meetings in December, Jared Kushner proposed to Russian Ambassador Sergei Kislyak setting up a “back channel” so the Trump team could communicate secretly and securely with Moscow.

Quote
Kushner proposed using the Russian government’s own secure communication facilities, presumably housed in Russian diplomatic facilities in Washington and New York, to communicate with Moscow behind the back of the US government, state, intelligence apparatus, military, etc.

Why exactly would you want to do that?


Quote

 ...it makes all the most ominous reads about what is at the heart of Trump/Russia story considerably more plausible. What exactly did the Trump team need so urgently to discuss with the Russian government? Why the need for such absolute security? After all the transition would be the US government in little more than a month.

What is it they wanted to say to the the Russians that they didn't want even the most security-clearanced and experienced people to know about?

My guess... at