The Trombone Forum

Practice Break => Purely Politics => Topic started by: vito on Feb 23, 2017, 02:52PM



Title: New Law Would Let Arizona Treat Organized Dissent as Organized Crime
Post by: vito on Feb 23, 2017, 02:52PM
http://www.commondreams.org/news/2017/02/23/new-law-would-let-arizona-treat-organized-dissent-organized-crime



Title: Re: New Law Would Let Arizona Treat Organized Dissent as Organized Crime
Post by: Stretch Longarm on Feb 23, 2017, 04:19PM
Here we go...un-friggin' believable.


Title: Re: New Law Would Let Arizona Treat Organized Dissent as Organized Crime
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 23, 2017, 05:01PM
I'm confident that would be overturned at the Supreme Court level but not before many people's lives were turned upside down for protesting something.


Title: Re: New Law Would Let Arizona Treat Organized Dissent as Organized Crime
Post by: Ellrod on Feb 23, 2017, 06:00PM
Reliable source?


Title: Re: New Law Would Let Arizona Treat Organized Dissent as Organized Crime
Post by: B0B on Feb 23, 2017, 06:22PM
Reliable source?

https://www.usnews.com/news/arizona/articles/2017-02-22/arizona-senate-oks-racketeering-charges-for-riots
Quote
By BOB CHRISTIE, Associated Press

PHOENIX (AP) The full Arizona Senate on Wednesday approved a bill that makes participating in or helping organize a protest that turns into a riot an offense that could lead to criminal racketeering charges, legislation Republican backers say is needed to crack down on violent protesters.

The measure adds rioting to the organized crime statutes and says an overt act isn't needed to prove conspiracy to riot, meaning someone could be charged who wasn't involved in the actual riot.

All 17 Senate Republicans supported the measure and all 13 Democrats voted no. It now heads to the House.


Title: Re: New Law Would Let Arizona Treat Organized Dissent as Organized Crime
Post by: Ellrod on Feb 23, 2017, 06:36PM
It's getting crazier.


Title: Re: New Law Would Let Arizona Treat Organized Dissent as Organized Crime
Post by: Baron von Bone on Feb 23, 2017, 08:33PM
It's getting crazier.

Dunno ... we've had some pretty crazy legislation. We have some pretty crazy antiquated legislation that's never gone away other than in terms of enforcement, if they were ever enforced.
 
But it seems pretty strikingly clear that this "law" would never survive a challenge, but ideologues/dogmatists will never learn not to throw massive public moneys away just to affirm their views and to feel self-satisfied with the illusion that they've imposed their personal demons on everyone else.


Title: Re: New Law Would Let Arizona Treat Organized Dissent as Organized Crime
Post by: mr.deacon on Feb 23, 2017, 08:49PM
That might actually be the scariest thing I've seen yet :amazed:


Title: Re: New Law Would Let Arizona Treat Organized Dissent as Organized Crime
Post by: Andrew Meronek on Feb 23, 2017, 08:52PM
Reliable source?

Not this:

https://www.usnews.com/news/arizona/articles/2017-02-22/arizona-senate-oks-racketeering-charges-for-riots

Just look at the titles. The two are not the same. I'd say that the original article stretched for inflammatory words to the extent that it is no longer factual.


Title: Re: New Law Would Let Arizona Treat Organized Dissent as Organized Crime
Post by: BillO on Feb 23, 2017, 09:50PM
A step closer to martial law in the US?



How did we get here?  Anyone want to take a shot at that?


Title: Re: New Law Would Let Arizona Treat Organized Dissent as Organized Crime
Post by: slide advantage on Feb 23, 2017, 10:05PM
If this Republican regime manages to stack the Supreme court, it could happen.

Scary. But the people will not stand for it. There will be an uprising and it won't be pretty. No one wants to live under that, especially in the USA.

This is why it is so important not to overlook the representative and senate elections. Gaining more seats and maybe a majority in either could stem the tide of this fascist bs


Title: Re: New Law Would Let Arizona Treat Organized Dissent as Organized Crime
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 23, 2017, 10:10PM
Not this:

Just look at the titles. The two are not the same. I'd say that the original article stretched for inflammatory words to the extent that it is no longer factual.

They're not the same article but they are about the same news. Is there something not true in the first one?


Title: Re: New Law Would Let Arizona Treat Organized Dissent as Organized Crime
Post by: badger on Feb 24, 2017, 04:54PM
IMHO RICO ( comparison purposes )  may have started out with good intentions but has wavered too far.
 
This is uncalled for and unnecessary.

Property forfeiture is out of control in some localities, and way beyond original intent.

 


Title: Re: New Law Would Let Arizona Treat Organized Dissent as Organized Crime
Post by: Piano man on Feb 26, 2017, 04:19PM
IMHO RICO ( comparison purposes )  may have started out with good intentions but has wavered too far.
 
This is uncalled for and unnecessary.

Property forfeiture is out of control in some localities, and way beyond original intent.

Agree 100%. Property forfeitures should be limited to convicted criminals, period. In my state they are.


Title: Re: New Law Would Let Arizona Treat Organized Dissent as Organized Crime
Post by: Andrew Meronek on Feb 26, 2017, 07:34PM
They're not the same article but they are about the same news. Is there something not true in the first one?

The difference between a protest and a riot. They ARE different; the Commondreams article talks about protests and the USNews talks about riots. One of these is wrong.


Title: Re: New Law Would Let Arizona Treat Organized Dissent as Organized Crime
Post by: Piano man on Feb 26, 2017, 09:09PM
The difference between a protest and a riot. They ARE different; the Commondreams article talks about protests and the USNews talks about riots. One of these is wrong.

The problem is that using the 'guilt-by-association' engendered by RICO laws, you could show up in good faith for a protest and end up in a riot. That's one of the complications of RICO laws--you can be held responsible for things you didn't do.


Title: Re: New Law Would Let Arizona Treat Organized Dissent as Organized Crime
Post by: Piano man on Feb 27, 2017, 11:19AM
Objection to civil forfeiture laws is one of the things that has support on both sides of the aisle. It's truly a disgrace.

The burden of proof is so low for confiscation of your property that most places you can lose your property without even being charged with a crime. RICO laws are just another permutation and extension of this lawlessness.

One interesting wrinkle that not many people are aware of: The money laundering charge known as 'structuring'. That is having multiple cash transactions just below the $10,000 threshold for the bank reporting requirement. It's what they charged Rush Limbaugh with when he was having his little fling with Oxy.

The problem is that there are perfectly good reasons someone could do this. One of the people in the NYT article was a woman who always took less than $10K to the bank, because her mom told her banks hate filling out the paperwork. Another was an old guy whose theft insurance covered $10K in cash, so when he got close he deposited it. Both businesses lost tens of thousands in civil forfeiture. They weren't charged, because they could account for the legal source of the money, but the IRS doesn't give it back without a fight. In some cases they'll even counteroffer to give you part of your money back as a settlement, even though you've done nothing wrong.

The banks are required to report these transactions, but they can't tell you about it! So if you're innocently making deposits that appear to be structured, even if they know the reason is legitimate, they can't warn you off of it. If you ask your banker about it, they're supposed to hand you a card.

I know this is off the subject, but it's a good thing to know about. Starting at that very low threshold of blame and applying it to protests would have a chilling effect on political speech. You could organize a peaceful protest, get caught in a riot, and be punished as part of a criminal organization.


Title: Re: New Law Would Let Arizona Treat Organized Dissent as Organized Crime
Post by: ddickerson on Feb 27, 2017, 01:15PM
They should just round up the rioters and charge them with the crimes they commit, instead of just standing there and watching them destroy other people's property. Most would be felonies, so it would thin the herd pretty quickly.



Title: Re: New Law Would Let Arizona Treat Organized Dissent as Organized Crime
Post by: Piano man on Feb 27, 2017, 01:21PM
They should just round up the rioters and charge them with the crimes they commit, instead of just standing there and watching them destroy other people's property. Most would be felonies, so it would thin the herd pretty quickly.



I agree 100%. Most of the suggestions seem to center on hauling in innocent people, like 'defunding' colleges where riots take place. What would be the moral or legal basis for that? If a crime is committed on campus, do we punish the other students? Would we defund Texas Christian University if a mass shooting occurred there? Of course not.

But you're right, they should concentrate on actual crime rather than dissent.


Title: Re: New Law Would Let Arizona Treat Organized Dissent as Organized Crime
Post by: robcat2075 on Feb 27, 2017, 06:23PM
Cops aren't stupid... It's easier to arrest the non-violent people who are standing around not doing anything.


Title: Re: New Law Would Let Arizona Treat Organized Dissent as Organized Crime
Post by: SensitiveJohn on Feb 28, 2017, 01:50PM
Some people assume that the cops can be trusted.  Perhaps many cops are honest.  I wouldn't bet on them all being honest.  From the Boston Massacre to the Chicago Eight and beyond, this country has a long history of guilt by association.  If you are waiting in the car while your friend goes into a store to commit murder, you could be charged as a murderer too.  I wonder if the reasoning can be applied to a protest.  If some protestors burn a car, can that implicate other protestors?


Title: Re: New Law Would Let Arizona Treat Organized Dissent as Organized Crime
Post by: Russ White on Feb 28, 2017, 02:58PM

 What would be the moral or legal basis for that?


Remember, you are taking about elected Republicans. Neither of those words is particularly relevant.


Title: Re: New Law Would Let Arizona Treat Organized Dissent as Organized Crime
Post by: badger on Feb 28, 2017, 03:45PM
Neither of those words is particularly relevant.

What?


Title: Re: New Law Would Let Arizona Treat Organized Dissent as Organized Crime
Post by: B0B on Feb 28, 2017, 04:01PM
What?

The two words are legal and moral.

Just like how their morals recently only stand up for their own kind and are often filled with numerous double standards... And legal, like the constitution, only matter when it can bend to their politics will.

For example:
Right to vote? Not if you are part of a group that typically votes against the gop.
freedom of religion? Only if you're the RIGHT religion. Muslims and atheists need not apply.
freedom of press? Only if printing things the gop likes...
freedom of assembly? Not if assembling against gop causes (see OP)
freedom of guns? Funny, they should be everywhere but in the galley of a gop led statehouse ;)

And morals only count if republicans agree with them...


Title: Re: New Law Would Let Arizona Treat Organized Dissent as Organized Crime
Post by: badger on Feb 28, 2017, 04:08PM
Grammar.


Title: Re: New Law Would Let Arizona Treat Organized Dissent as Organized Crime
Post by: B0B on Feb 28, 2017, 04:18PM
Grammar.

Yup... because when laws and morals are gone, civilization's only remaining foundation is grammar.


Title: Re: New Law Would Let Arizona Treat Organized Dissent as Organized Crime
Post by: Baron von Bone on Feb 28, 2017, 05:12PM
Grammar.

Only to those who can pull off hiding clearly deceptive, unethical, amoral behavior behind convenient terms when it suits them.


Title: Re: New Law Would Let Arizona Treat Organized Dissent as Organized Crime
Post by: Russ White on Mar 01, 2017, 04:54AM
Grammar.


Leave Frazier out of this.