The Trombone Forum

Teaching & Learning => Beginners and Returning Trombonists => Topic started by: peteriley on Feb 25, 2017, 09:58AM



Title: Bumper springs?
Post by: peteriley on Feb 25, 2017, 09:58AM
Hi,

I picked up a Conn 8H on Ebay. It's really nice but the springs were removed yet no padding was put back in.

I grew up playing the same trombone with springs in it. Now I have an 88H w/o springs.

So, should I put the springs in and learn the difference in the slide positions that the springs will build into one of the instruments. Or just put padding into the 8H and have two trombones with virtually the same positions?

Thanks in advance for any suggestions, Pete


Title: Re: Bumper springs?
Post by: BGuttman on Feb 25, 2017, 10:38AM
I happen to like the springs, but I seem to be in the minority.

If you like the springs, you can make a set from a baritone horn valve spring.  This is what Bob Osmun did for my Yamaha 682 when I bought it.

If you don't care, put in a couple of felt bumpers so it matches your 88H.


Title: Re: Bumper springs?
Post by: vegasbound on Feb 25, 2017, 11:08AM
If you like springs put them back if like me you don't then don't!


Title: Re: Bumper springs?
Post by: hyperbolica on Feb 25, 2017, 11:10AM
I have a set of 88h springs if you want them.


Title: Re: Bumper springs?
Post by: BillO on Feb 25, 2017, 12:47PM
Why would the slide positions change?  Just tune to the position you normally tune, even if that ends up being a 1/2 inch from the top of the slide.  Isn't that what we all do?

I like the springs myself.  I'm thinking of having them added to my bass and my Shires. Anyone have a set of .562 springs they'd like to get rid of?


Title: Re: Bumper springs?
Post by: peteriley on Feb 25, 2017, 08:48PM
Thanks for the replies and suggestions.

I have the springs so I can put them in. The reason I was a bit worried is that the 8H and 88H are otherwise exactly the same. If i put the springs in, then 1st position (Bb) will be the length of the springs further down the slide, which will offset all the other positions. Without the springs, the two trombones should play identically. Maybe it's not a big deal, but I went through a transition period with my bass trombone, so if I can keep things the same that would be better.

Might be worth a try. I can always have them pulled out in the future. I do remember loving them!


Title: Re: Bumper springs?
Post by: harrison.t.reed on Feb 25, 2017, 09:16PM
The springs don't change where Bb is. The main tuning slide does. Food for thought.

If you tune your Ab to be in tune at the bell, everything will be just fine without the springs in.


Title: Re: Bumper springs?
Post by: greenbean on Feb 25, 2017, 10:24PM
You are thinking about it wrong.  Conn slides should have either springs, cork, or felt at the base of the cork barrels.  The cork or felt should stop the slide at the same point as the compressed springs will.  So.. no change in positions. 


Title: Re: Bumper springs?
Post by: harrison.t.reed on Feb 26, 2017, 07:19AM
The only way the positions change is if you pull that main tuning slide out farther than the other conn with the springs.

The only notes you need the cork bumpers for might be "F" using the F attachment and "Ab". Of course, I would still want felt or cork in there anyway to prevent slide damage when it's closed.


Title: Re: Bumper springs?
Post by: greenbean on Feb 26, 2017, 08:12AM
...

The only notes you need the cork bumpers for might be "F" using the F attachment and "Ab". Of course, I would still want felt or cork in there anyway to prevent slide damage when it's closed.

^ Exactly. 

Without something in there, you have metal hitting metal when you do bring the slide all the way in - the slide lock lug with hit the cork barrel.  And the slide lock won't work properly without spring/cork/felt of the right thickness.



Title: Re: Bumper springs?
Post by: peteriley on Feb 26, 2017, 08:58AM
Right, and that's the way it is at the moment - it can't be played because it clangs into first position.

Cheers, Pete


Title: Re: Bumper springs?
Post by: eightyeightH on Feb 26, 2017, 03:17PM
I suppose it depends on what you're used to. On my 88, 1st is against the uncompressed springs. T1 is hard up against them, which makes the F side positions a little sharper. In either case, a note is in tune if it's in tune.


Title: Re: Bumper springs?
Post by: peteriley on Feb 26, 2017, 04:06PM
Interesting. My original 8H from the early 80's had Bb against the uncompressed springs, then D pulled in full. F was out a little from the uncompressed springs. The 8H I have now, from the early 90's has Bb and D in the same location, so the need to have that fine tuning aid isn't as apparent. Now it seems like the main benefit is to slow the train down as I'm racing into first? I'll give it a try and see what happens....


Title: Re: Bumper springs?
Post by: harrison.t.reed on Feb 26, 2017, 06:09PM
My Eastlake 88H has Ab at the bell, Bb about an inch out, D even further out than that, and F is as far out as D. I tune the F attachment to be in tune almost completely against the bumpers.

Doing this, the main tuning slide is one or two mm out from closed, and the F slide is pulled out a lot.


Title: Re: Bumper springs?
Post by: hurry on Feb 28, 2017, 06:13PM
I have Conn 62H with spring. recently I fixed it and exchanged the spring from a German trombone maker, don't remember the name.

hurry

I like the springs myself.  I'm thinking of having them added to my bass and my Shires. Anyone have a set of .562 springs they'd like to get rid of?


Title: Re: Bumper springs?
Post by: peteriley on Mar 01, 2017, 02:39PM
So, what's the main advantage then of the springs? On my old trombone, it let me set the Bb at the unsprung part of them, then pull in for the D. But with the new trombone, Bb and D are in the same place so there's no need for that adjustment. Is it for the comfort of not ramming the outer slide into the stocks?

Thanks, Pete


Title: Re: Bumper springs?
Post by: harrison.t.reed on Mar 01, 2017, 03:19PM
It was put in to encourage players to play "out" on the slide. The 88H was designed to be played that way, springs or no. Tuning Ab at the bell puts Bb right at where the springs end, or where they would have ended if they aren't there. You can and probably should still play as if the spring was there even if it isnt.

There's a great video of Lindberg playing his 88H on the Carmen suite where you can see him using extended positions this way. F4 is WAAAY out on the slide.

Tuning the Bb to the compressed spring (ie, all the way closed if there is no spring) is what many teachers have their students do to tune Bb. On an 88H, tuning this way moves all the other positions closer to the mouthpiece. Ab will be out in front of the bell and G will be just past it. It also means that F might be flat in first, even with the F slide completely closed. Many bass trombonists complain about their F attachment being too long, but that's likely due to the fact that they pulled the main tuning slide out a ton to get Bb in tune in a closed first.

Tuning Bb to where the spring ends (or where it would have ended) allows you to tune the F attachment to be in a closed first position  (you pull in for the F). In a way, this helps the "regular" notes line up better with the 6 F attachment positions because the "regular" positions are already longer. You pull in to closed for F, the Es line up, and pull out a bit for Eb, etc.

The springs basically were there to keep people from tuning Bb to be in tune with the slide closed -- "we designed it to be this way, dudes"



Title: Re: Bumper springs?
Post by: BGuttman on Mar 01, 2017, 04:58PM
I was taught to tune Bb just where the slide touches the springs.  This way if you need to play F with the valve you have some room to move in to get it in tune.  I think since they used the same slide with the 8H they put springs in that too even though you really don't need them on a straight tenor.  Same thing for the King 4B and 4BF.

You can't compress the spring enough to get Ab in tune in 1st on an 8H/88H.