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Teaching & Learning => Beginners and Returning Trombonists => Topic started by: chris1030 on Mar 14, 2017, 06:25AM



Title: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: chris1030 on Mar 14, 2017, 06:25AM
I'll be performing a solo in a few months where I have to hit a C one octave above middle C (:trebleclef: :space3:) a few times, sometimes jumping up and down the octave in one beat (:trebleclef: :lowerledger1: ->  :space3:) I can hit the note, but not consistently and not easily. It sounds like I'm struggling and takes a few seconds before I can sustain it. Any tips on how to get the note consistently?


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: BGuttman on Mar 14, 2017, 06:34AM
My favorite high note exercise was posted by WaltTrombone.  It's the Remington "Security in the Upper Register" exercise.  It takes time and effort but you can use it to get easily to the F above that C.  Important: don't try to get ahead of yourself and give yourself some rest if you flub a note 3 times.

Another exercise I've done is the Arban Interval exercise or as a variation, playing a scale in octave leaps (F-F, G-G, A-A, etc.).

Always start from what you can do easily and work toward where you need work.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: peteriley on Mar 15, 2017, 10:48AM
Hi Chris,

I'd also recommend:

http://www.hip-bonestore.com/Build_Your_Range_for_Trombone_p/hbm188.htm

It comes with some great play along tracks and it's really helping me. The author is a professional trumpet player and did his PhD (in part) on exercises to increase range.  In fact, you can read his thesis here:

http://scholarlyrepository.miami.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1536&context=oa_dissertations

There's some interesting stuff in there (although at least some is probably trumpet specific), but it isn't a substitute for his book.

Pete


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: timothy42b on Mar 15, 2017, 12:50PM
I'm going to disagree with everybody here.

I don't think you should do any of those exercises unless you do them correctly.

No exercise will build range on its own; you have to have an idea what you're doing and why you're doing it, what correct mechanics are and how they build range. 

The difference between correctly and incorrectly can be subtle.  (Not for me, I usually do them blatantly wrong!)


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: afugate on Mar 16, 2017, 05:32AM
I'm going to disagree with everybody here.

I don't think you should do any of those exercises unless you do them correctly.

No exercise will build range on its own; you have to have an idea what you're doing and why you're doing it, what correct mechanics are and how they build range. 

The difference between correctly and incorrectly can be subtle.  (Not for me, I usually do them blatantly wrong!)

Agreed.  After years of bad habits and incorrect playing, I'm finally making serious progress after taking a couple of long distance lessons from Doug.  Good teachers are critical to correct learning.

--Andy in OKC


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: crazytrombonist505 on Mar 16, 2017, 05:45AM
Agreed.  After years of bad habits and incorrect playing, I'm finally making serious progress after taking a couple of long distance lessons from Doug.  Good teachers are critical to correct learning.

--Andy in OKC

Agreed!  :good:


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 16, 2017, 06:09AM
Hi Chris,

I'd also recommend:

http://www.hip-bonestore.com/Build_Your_Range_for_Trombone_p/hbm188.htm

It comes with some great play along tracks and it's really helping me. The author is a professional trumpet player and did his PhD (in part) on exercises to increase range.  In fact, you can read his thesis here:

http://scholarlyrepository.miami.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1536&context=oa_dissertations

There's some interesting stuff in there (although at least some is probably trumpet specific), but it isn't a substitute for his book.

Pete

Thank you for posting that thesis!

Relaxation and compression seem to be the key elements presented.

Although one instructor seems to get the bulk of the cheer leading around here, there are others who are excellent as well!!!! Glad they are around! Different ways of accomplishing the same end goal are always welcome.

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: afugate on Mar 16, 2017, 06:21AM
Although one instructor seems to get the bulk of the cheer leading around here, there are others who are excellent as well!!!! Glad they are around! Different ways of accomplishing the same end goal are always welcome.

...Geezer

Different teachers for different areas of expertise.  And, each teacher connects differently with each student.  It pays to have more than one source.  But it also pays to have a good idea of which teachers excel in which areas.  For example, a great technical studies teacher may not be a great embouchure mechanics teacher.  (That was true in my case.)

--Andy in OKC


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 16, 2017, 06:37AM
Different teachers for different areas of expertise.  And, each teacher connects differently with each student.  It pays to have more than one source.  But it also pays to have a good idea of which teachers excel in which areas.  For example, a great technical studies teacher may not be a great embouchure mechanics teacher.  (That was true in my case.)

--Andy in OKC

Bottom line is to seek out the one(s) that helps you the best. A caveat though is to not get confused over different approaches. So it's probably best to have a wide separation; such as one for the mechanics of playing and a different one for self-expression, if one doesn't do it all for you.

P.S. I take your snipping out the lead thought in my statement in your quote to focus on the other to mean that you agree with that first point. lol

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: timothy42b on Mar 16, 2017, 07:25AM
Agreed.  After years of bad habits and incorrect playing, I'm finally making serious progress after taking a couple of long distance lessons from Doug.  Good teachers are critical to correct learning.

--Andy in OKC

A good teacher is optimal.

In the absence of one, playing next to somebody who plays well can be extremely helpful, in fact a lesson in itself.  Sometimes even if he/she can't explain what they're doing, if you're next them and hear how they approach high notes you can kind of get the flavor of it. 


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 16, 2017, 07:49AM
A good teacher is optimal.

In the absence of one, playing next to somebody who plays well can be extremely helpful, in fact a lesson in itself.  Sometimes even if he/she can't explain what they're doing, if you're next them and hear how they approach high notes you can kind of get the flavor of it. 

Agreed on both points!

Something I have tried and use from time-to-time is to switch to a too-small mouthpiece for a couple days to get the feel of hitting higher notes. It seems to then transfer my ability to focus my aperture and air stream to my normal mouthpiece. But this isn't for someone who might get "messed up" by switching rims, even for a couple days.

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: timothy42b on Mar 16, 2017, 07:58AM




http://scholarlyrepository.miami.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1536&context=oa_dissertations

There's some interesting stuff in there (although at least some is probably trumpet specific),

I just read that.  I'm not sure if I'd seen it before or not, memory isn't all that reliable.  Some parts seemed familiar.

At any rate, IMO a beginner should NEVER read it online.

He/she should print it out, use a scissors to cut out the yoga breath section that requires abdominal tension, and throw it away.  Then read the rest. 

I'm not saying there isn't any value in that section, but the idea of compressing air through abdominal tension is probably going to set a beginner back years. 


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: tbathras on Mar 16, 2017, 08:27AM
In the absence of one, playing next to somebody who plays well can be extremely helpful, in fact a lesson in itself. 

I love setting next to someone who is better than I am - it brings my playing up.  It is so simple, yet so effective.

Note: It's the most effective for me when that person plays the same part or at least the same size horn and similar part; i.e. I get more from setting next to another bass 'bone (which is very infrequent) than I do a tenor


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: crazytrombonist505 on Mar 16, 2017, 08:38AM
I love setting next to someone who is better than I am - it brings my playing up.  It is so simple, yet so effective.

I'm the same way! It is so nice to have someone who is better then you playing on the same part with you.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 16, 2017, 08:51AM
I just read that.  I'm not sure if I'd seen it before or not, memory isn't all that reliable.  Some parts seemed familiar.

At any rate, IMO a beginner should NEVER read it online.

He/she should print it out, use a scissors to cut out the yoga breath section that requires abdominal tension, and throw it away.  Then read the rest. 

I'm not saying there isn't any value in that section, but the idea of compressing air through abdominal tension is probably going to set a beginner back years. 

What makes you state that; experience, advice received or independent reading. Sorry, but your say-so ain't enough.

P.S. Perhaps we should keep in mind that the paper referenced in above posts was done at the University of Miami.  :evil:

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: timothy42b on Mar 16, 2017, 10:26AM
What makes you state that; experience, advice received or independent reading. Sorry, but your say-so ain't enough.

My experience is mostly with singers and choir directors.
My observation is that with beginners any guidance other than take a deep relaxed breath leads to at best confusion and at worst catastrophe.  If the advice is correct (rare!) then it is misunderstood.  I have an example in mind right now but this is public.  Come to think of it, he's not computer literate, I'll risk.  There's an alto with a nice sound who took him seriously when he kept insisting on support from the diaphragm.  Sure enough, she's tightened up, and now she has a tension tremor on every pitch. 

Specific to the article, he talks about compression.  Trumpet players use the word two different ways, to refer to air pressure and lip to lip compression.  He is talking about air pressure, produced by abdominal pressure. 

ran out of time, more later. 


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: vegasbound on Mar 16, 2017, 10:29AM
Have a skype lesson with Doug Elliott!


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: harrison.t.reed on Mar 16, 2017, 10:33AM
I'm going to disagree with everybody here.

I don't think you should do any of those exercises unless you do them correctly.

No exercise will build range on its own; you have to have an idea what you're doing and why you're doing it, what correct mechanics are and how they build range. 

The difference between correctly and incorrectly can be subtle.  (Not for me, I usually do them blatantly wrong!)

Yup. What he said ^^

I recommend getting really solid in the mid to lower range. Build that base as wide as you possibly can, and the high notes will be more stable.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 16, 2017, 10:39AM
My experience is mostly with singers and choir directors.
My observation is that with beginners any guidance other than take a deep relaxed breath leads to at best confusion and at worst catastrophe.  If the advice is correct (rare!) then it is misunderstood.  I have an example in mind right now but this is public.  Come to think of it, he's not computer literate, I'll risk.  There's an alto with a nice sound who took him seriously when he kept insisting on support from the diaphragm.  Sure enough, she's tightened up, and now she has a tension tremor on every pitch. 

Specific to the article, he talks about compression.  Trumpet players use the word two different ways, to refer to air pressure and lip to lip compression.  He is talking about air pressure, produced by abdominal pressure. 

ran out of time, more later. 

Okay, that is the big caveat I see in the "compression" approach - letting tension creep into the torsal and headal areas, which would do more harm than good. But I'm having a very hard time making the "compression" approach - in and of itself - bad. It's how it's misused. So yeah. If it's employed, then best under the watchful eye of a great instructor.

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: bonenick on Mar 16, 2017, 11:14AM
Tongue position also adds the to compression's creation. On all brass instruments.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: timothy42b on Mar 16, 2017, 12:08PM
Tongue position also adds the to compression's creation. On all brass instruments.

I think that tongue position is important but I don't think it has to do with compression per se.

The air in your mouth is under extremely low pressure.  In fact in part of the cycle the pressure is so low air can move backwards.

There is no reason to think tightening abdominals causes your air to be more pressurized.  What will happen if you tighten your abs but don't let the air squirt out, your diaphragm will have to move down to resist the abs pressure.  And if your rib cage doesn't open up when the abs tighten, you can maybe cause a hernia. 

Also, the Indian guru who wrote that yoga breath book never existed.  It was forged by a Chicago lawyer.

What I think your tongue does is alter the shape and size of your oral cavity to make a resonance chamber at the right frequency.  I used the singular deliberately, I think it may be a Helmholtz resonator rather than supporting overtones but could be wrong. 


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: cigmar on Mar 16, 2017, 01:24PM

What I think your tongue does is alter the shape and size of your oral cavity to make a resonance chamber at the right frequency. 

I tend to agree with Tim.  I believe this is basically what occurs during a whistle.  The tongue alters the shape and size of the oral cavity (as Tim stated) to create the desired pitch on the whistle.  Taking that one step further, one could theorize that if one whistled the exact pitch one was attempting to play on the horn, you would discover the exact position and shape the tongue should be in to optimize the playing of that particular pitch, as far as the tongue goes.  Understood, there are many other factors involved.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: bonenick on Mar 17, 2017, 03:16AM
I am not a great theory maker, but thus I know:
You want to get all your registers in place? Breathing and embouchure is not enough. You need to find out how your tongue works. By putting you tongue up you restrict somewhat the air passage and create air stream that has greater speed and succeptible to create higher frequencies. It somewhat counteract with the pressure created by lips and mouthpiece. Don't forget that this way you need less quantity of air, not more.

I hope I made it clearer now...


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 17, 2017, 04:55AM
Oh. So now everyone is poo-pooing the concept of air column support.  :rolleyes:

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: afugate on Mar 17, 2017, 05:26AM
At risk of hijacking this thread...

I love setting next to someone who is better than I am - it brings my playing up.  It is so simple, yet so effective.

Note: It's the most effective for me when that person plays the same part or at least the same size horn and similar part; i.e. I get more from setting next to another bass 'bone (which is very infrequent) than I do a tenor

A few years ago, I was asked to help out in the beginner room at our local university trombone day.  In the same room was another trombone player assistant that I had never met.  Our job was play along with the kids and to help model correct playing.  From the moment the other guy picked up his horn and played, I started panicking.  His sound was glorious!  From that point on, every time I played and every note I played I tried to match him.  One of the hardest mornings I've ever had playing my horn.  And it was mostly notes in the first year range of player capabilities.

Fast forward a year later and I found out that he took over the open second chair in the Oklahoma City Philharmonic.  :)

Philip Martinson.  Great player.  Great sound.  Great guy.

--Andy in OKC


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: cigmar on Mar 17, 2017, 05:27AM
Oh. So now everyone is poo-pooing the concept of air column support.  :rolleyes:

...Geezer

You can support the air all you want, but if the other parts of the puzzle aren't in place or working properly, it ain't gonna happen.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 17, 2017, 05:33AM
You can support the air all you want, but if the other parts of the puzzle aren't in place or working properly, it ain't gonna happen.


I have no argument with that. I've never stated that the other components are not important as well. Never.

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: timothy42b on Mar 17, 2017, 05:42AM
Oh. So now everyone is poo-pooing the concept of air column support.  :rolleyes:

...Geezer

No.

At best, everyone minus one.

(but I don't think I'm the only one on this)

I am poo-poohing the idea that tightening your abdomen will automatically give you high range. 

There was a time when the standard wisdom was to tighten your gut as if to take a punch, and that's how you were supposed to play.  That isn't universally common wisdom any more, but to a beginner "you must support" means exactly that. 

What it really means is ........ well hardly anybody talks about it specifically enough to know what it really means.  And there are all sorts of variations like wedge breath and chest breath for different ranges. 


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: davdud101 on Mar 17, 2017, 05:49AM
Do (we) trombonists talk about compression differently than trumpeters do? Or are there two kinds? (I've heard it sometimes referred to the valves, and other times to the air/tongue system)


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 17, 2017, 05:52AM
No.

At best, everyone minus one.

(but I don't think I'm the only one on this)

I am poo-poohing the idea that tightening your abdomen will automatically give you high range. 

There was a time when the standard wisdom was to tighten your gut as if to take a punch, and that's how you were supposed to play.  That isn't universally common wisdom any more, but to a beginner "you must support" means exactly that. 

What it really means is ........ well hardly anybody talks about it specifically enough to know what it really means.  And there are all sorts of variations like wedge breath and chest breath for different ranges. 

You've corrupted the concept into a freak show.  :evil:

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: afugate on Mar 17, 2017, 05:52AM
Paul Stephens is one of the players that Augie Haas cited in his dissertation.  He also happens to be a classmate of mine.  I've heard him speak on multiple occasions about the concept of the wedge breath.  Paul doesn't say its the key to playing in the upper register.  He says its the key to getting the correct sound of a lead trumpet in the upper register.  It's whats needed to get the "sizzle" or "burn" that cuts through the band.

From reading the dissertation, I see that repeated from others as well.

--Andy in OKC


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: timothy42b on Mar 17, 2017, 06:01AM
Do (we) trombonists talk about compression differently than trumpeters do? Or are there two kinds? (I've heard it sometimes referred to the valves, and other times to the air/tongue system)

Sometimes with trumpets it's hard to tell what system they are talking about.  I think they most commonly are talking about air, and I think they really believe it is higher pressure air moving at the same speed, which makes no sense to me but does to them.  But sometimes they seem to be talking about lip to lip pressure around the aperture, and like you say sometimes they mean valves.  So I dunno.

I think trombonists mostly mean aperture but sometimes air as well. 

Our demands for range aren't as great, are they?  If you can play to a high C you can play at least 95% of what you'll run into; if you have a double high C that's about 125%.  A lead trumpet might work an equivalent octave higher. 


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: harrison.t.reed on Mar 17, 2017, 06:09AM
It's obvious that the answer is to buy a different mouthpiece.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: bonenick on Mar 17, 2017, 06:13AM
I wasn't necessarily speaking about "fast"air. Because is difficult to prove anything about it.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: timothy42b on Mar 17, 2017, 06:23AM
Two quotes from a trumpet forum:

Quote
I was taught as part of the closed lip technique
 (to buzz 15-20 minutes a day, lips only). I was told to do it to build the right compression muscles fast. Faster than playing. At first it was boring and almost nausiating..and it still is(ha ha)...but I do it every day.

 The greatest benefit I've gotten with it as a warm up prior to a performance to define that center compression spot...gets lips ready to buzz.


Clearly talking about lip to lip compression.

Quote
Most commonly I'd expect that to mean that the valves are still in good condition, rather than overly worn.
 In that sense, the valveslides (which are effectively sealed) hold compression well - that there aren't air leaks in the valveblock (or slides) and the slides will produce a "pop" noise if you pull them out without depressing the valves.
 If the valves are very worn (which some might even prefer) then the air will leak out from the slides around the side of the valves, generally you get much looser slots and potentially less reliable action when that's the case.

Clearly talking about the horn compression.

I looked for one that talked about air but didn't find it yet.  I'm sure I've seen it though. 


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 17, 2017, 06:32AM
Who cares what trumpet players do anyway, unless we are doubling. Point is, what - if anything - can we take away for our own use. I believe air column support is one thing, although we could argue over good vs freakish air column support and what possible caveats there may be - such as tension in places where it is counter-productive.

I agree with Andy that a sit-next-to is sometimes just as valuable as a good lesson.

Oh, and haven't we ALL gone the new mpc route! lol

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: BGuttman on Mar 17, 2017, 06:46AM
The constant "new mouthpiece" is a bad idea.  You wind up like the trumpet players with a passel of mouthpieces trying to select the one that best covers a particular part.  I can just see it.  You ask the conductor to stop the ensemble while you swap mouthpieces for a particular note :razz:

Emory Remington discovered that more resistance makes the upper partials easier to play (maybe he got his idea from the French Horn).  So his "Security in the Upper Register" exercise starts in 7th position where the partial that includes high Bb is easier to find (it's E) and works to shorter and shorter horns.  You suddenly find that you can't hit the note in that partial, so you try to use the lip compression that seemed to work a half step lower.  Others use a gliss from 7 to 1 on that partial.

Denis Wick (Trombone Technique) talks about a smaller aperture for higher notes and a larger aperture for lower notes.

I've also read somewhere (maybe Fink "Trombonist's Handbook") that lowest notes are blown straight to the aperture of the mouthpiece while higher notes are bounced off the wall of the cup.  The higher the note, the closer you "bounce" toward your lips.

Fact remains that increasing range is not an overnight exercise; it takes time and effort.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 17, 2017, 06:58AM
The constant "new mouthpiece" is a bad idea.  You wind up like the trumpet players with a passel of mouthpieces trying to select the one that best covers a particular part.  I can just see it.  You ask the conductor to stop the ensemble while you swap mouthpieces for a particular note :razz:

Emory Remington discovered that more resistance makes the upper partials easier to play (maybe he got his idea from the French Horn).  So his "Security in the Upper Register" exercise starts in 7th position where the partial that includes high Bb is easier to find (it's E) and works to shorter and shorter horns.  You suddenly find that you can't hit the note in that partial, so you try to use the lip compression that seemed to work a half step lower.  Others use a gliss from 7 to 1 on that partial.

Denis Wick (Trombone Technique) talks about a smaller aperture for higher notes and a larger aperture for lower notes.

I've also read somewhere (maybe Fink "Trombonist's Handbook") that lowest notes are blown straight to the aperture of the mouthpiece while higher notes are bounced off the wall of the cup.  The higher the note, the closer you "bounce" toward your lips.

Fact remains that increasing range is not an overnight exercise; it takes time and effort.

Only a fool would advocate swapping mpcs to THAT freakish extent!  :evil: However, I have heard the stories about swapping out in the middle of a solo. Hey. Whatever works, but that's an extreme approach to say the very least.

I believe that control over the size/shape of the aperture to be MUCH more productive than gyrating the horn all around on the chops.

I've seen the posts where there have been claims of gaining a fifth or so literally overnight. The only scenario I can see for those claims were some fundamental flaw corrected and/or the original "high" note wasn't very high at all to begin with. It doesn't stretch my imagination very much to think of a beginning straight tenor student "stuck" on D above the staff to suddenly be instructed to blow a nice F above the staff. But going from a nice high C to a nice high F always - yes always - takes some real patience and effort.

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: ddickerson on Mar 17, 2017, 07:43AM

Although one instructor seems to get the bulk of the cheer leading around here, there are others who are excellent as well!!!! Glad they are around! Different ways of accomplishing the same end goal are always welcome.

...Geezer

The reason one instructor gets a lot of cheer leading around here is because of his success with students. He has a proven track record that should give a level of confidence to a new student seeking corrective advice.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: timothy42b on Mar 17, 2017, 08:08AM
Well, we've gone down a lot of paths, and I'm not sure how much we've helped the OP.

To recap, he can play a high C but it's strained and unreliable, and he needs it solid in a couple of months.  What should he do?

What I would suggest:

A lesson would probably help.  Failing that, do brief range exercises always with sufficient rest.  Fatigue will kill your chances of expanding your range.

High range is a combination of strength and knack (some call it technique or mechanics).  I'd guess it might be 25% strength to 75% skill.  You can't get to that skill when tired, so play high but cautiously.  If you're working hard you're doing it wrong. 

Don't don't don't think about breath support over the short term.  You're more likely to do harm than good.  Yes I think it's important, but I don't think any written explanation can help. 


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 17, 2017, 08:14AM
The reason one instructor gets a lot of cheer leading around here is because of his success with students. He has a proven track record that should give a level of confidence to a new student seeking corrective advice.

Maybe. But I fear we do a grave disservice to other great instructors on this Forum by largely ignoring them and seldom referring to them by name for their valuable efforts in pedagogy. IOW's; it's lop-sided.

Perhaps someone would like to start an "Instructor Recognition" thread and start giving others who have had a major influence on their playing  - due credits.

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 17, 2017, 08:15AM
Well, we've gone down a lot of paths, and I'm not sure how much we've helped the OP.

To recap, he can play a high C but it's strained and unreliable, and he needs it solid in a couple of months.  What should he do?

What I would suggest:

A lesson would probably help.  Failing that, do brief range exercises always with sufficient rest.  Fatigue will kill your chances of expanding your range.

High range is a combination of strength and knack (some call it technique or mechanics).  I'd guess it might be 25% strength to 75% skill.  You can't get to that skill when tired, so play high but cautiously.  If you're working hard you're doing it wrong. 

Don't don't don't think about breath support over the short term.  You're more likely to do harm than good.  Yes I think it's important, but I don't think any written explanation can help. 

Agreed, except your percentages are very arguable. Why? It depends upon what strength you are talking about. Gut-busting, bullish brute car-lifting strength? No. Strength in the extremely selective small and highly localized aperture muscles? Lots of that. Like trying to wiggle the eyebrows in different directions at the same time. Extremely small and highly localized muscle strength. And a lot of co-ordination, finesse, etc. Some of us have DNA enabling us to control some fine muscles more naturally while others of us have to work on developing the strength AND the feel of it. 

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: bonenick on Mar 17, 2017, 08:58AM
I don't know about percentages, but to me, high register playing is much more about control and refined mechanics. Not brute force and blowing someone's head off.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 17, 2017, 09:17AM
I don't know about percentages, but to me, high register playing is much more about control and refined mechanics. Not brute force and blowing someone's head off.

No argument. But strength is also important. If strength weren't a critical factor in everything we would quickly die. How many species on this planet have gone extinct for the lack of strength to survive.

Brass wind instruments are unique. We have to practice long & hard for the proper technique to flourish and yet muscles need rest to rebuild. So there is a delicate balance. Over blow in a session and pay the price the next session or day. With pianists, not as much.

Perhaps a good discussion on playing high ought to involve how we condition our bodies in general as well as our minds. I don't know if this is beneficial to me - feel free to chime in yeah or nay - but I like to take a couple of either Ibuprofen or Tylenol after a tough session - to help reduce inflammation. This is NOT advice. 

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: timothy42b on Mar 17, 2017, 09:20AM


Perhaps a good discussion on playing high ought to involve how we condition our bodies in general as well as our minds. ...Geezer

I would argue that high range is more like the athleticism of the ballet dancer than the wrestler. 


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 17, 2017, 09:40AM
I would argue that high range is more like the athleticism of the ballet dancer than the wrestler. 

I think you would go far on that argument. In fact, I hope VERY far. lol

Seriously, though. Yeah. But I could argue that a world-class Olympic wrassler is going to have just as much refinement of technique to go with his strength and conditioning. Personally, I would also rather think of the ballerina.  :D

(http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g454/BigBadTimboy/ballerina_zpsvja1msvv.jpg)

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: timothy42b on Mar 17, 2017, 09:42AM
Or maybe a dart player.

301 anybody?


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 17, 2017, 09:44AM
Or maybe a dart player.

301 anybody?

Probably the Technique Is Everything, Strength Is Nothing Guys would prefer a tiddlywinks analogy.   :evil:

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: peteriley on Mar 17, 2017, 09:58AM
What makes you state that; experience, advice received or independent reading. Sorry, but your say-so ain't enough.

P.S. Perhaps we should keep in mind that the paper referenced in above posts was done at the University of Miami.  :evil:

...Geezer

Glad to see these two opposing viewpoints. This was a point that really intrigued me. The guy's thesis built on previous works/books published by famous trumpet players who had advocated this technique. The "wedge" or "yoga" breathing seemed interesting. I mentioned it to a couple of professional trombonists recently, and they just rolled their eyes. It seems like for the trombone you can get good-enough air support from deep breaths, pushing out the lower stomach. Perhaps the wedge breathing is for getting out that octave above the trombone range? I'm still working on getting the octave below that to sound nice :)


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Pre59 on Mar 17, 2017, 10:53AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CoxnhjLMVBo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHq7vCihaXg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmBDG_wAeS4

http://www.wilktone.com/?s=Video+buzzing


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: timothy42b on Mar 17, 2017, 10:57AM
Those are awesome, thank you.  I've bookmarked them (well, "Watch later.")


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 17, 2017, 11:00AM
Glad to see these two opposing viewpoints. This was a point that really intrigued me. The guy's thesis built on previous works/books published by famous trumpet players who had advocated this technique. The "wedge" or "yoga" breathing seemed interesting. I mentioned it to a couple of professional trombonists recently, and they just rolled their eyes. It seems like for the trombone you can get good-enough air support from deep breaths, pushing out the lower stomach. Perhaps the wedge breathing is for getting out that octave above the trombone range? I'm still working on getting the octave below that to sound nice :)

Lol. We bicker like siblings sometimes.

I gave that wedgie thingy a brief test. While I believe in good air column support as evidenced in doing arpeggio slurring exercises, I think putting it into hyper-drive is dangerous. It was waaaaay too easy for me to get all bunched up from head to toe. That ain't too good for my playing and I believe actually does more harm than good.

I give it a 50-50 mix of technique and strength/stamina. Maybe those of us who have been playing for so long forget what it took to get built up. I haven't been playing that long so I haven't forgotten. I'm MUCH stronger than I was a few years ago. Notes that used to tax to the max are now almost child's play. Why is that? Technique? Partly.

Even though I am trying to refine my technique for higher and higher playing, I also know I need to up my endurance game. And here's how I know. With my current level of strength and technique, I can play a given phrase up high found in the middle or end of a ballad pretty well. But can I start at the beginning of the ballad and still play that high part as well by the time I get there? No. Why? Did I forget my technique? No. I got tired. And that is the other side of the coin as to why we practice, practice, practice. We are building up our technique AND our strength. It takes both. Clearly.   

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: savio on Mar 17, 2017, 07:40PM
If you read the posts from Ralph Sauer in this forum you might get some hints. But there is no short way to anything ......you have to work for it.

Leif


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Pre59 on Mar 18, 2017, 02:13AM
I don't think that many people involved in this often repeated topic really understand the concept of "aperture". The way that I got it was to try and break my embouchure, in the the same way that one might take an item apart to see how it works. If you just fiddle around with something rather than digging deep, there's no real understanding to be had IMO.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 18, 2017, 04:56AM
I don't think that many people involved in this often repeated topic really understand the concept of "aperture". The way that I got it was to try and break my embouchure, in the the same way that one might take an item apart to see how it works. If you just fiddle around with something rather than digging deep, there's no real understanding to be had IMO.

And of course, we need to have a renown surgeon's intimate knowledge of an aperture to understand the basic concept of how it works...

Keeping it real, I think we should not under-value sleep in a good training regimen. Yeah, I know; duh. But I've noticed that even though I get the exact same number of clock hours of rest between my morning and evening practice sessions as I do between my evening and morning practice sessions, I'm almost always better rested and capable of more easily hitting higher notes in the morning.

The OP is in high school, according to his profile. It's medically understood that guys his age naturally want to stay up late and sleep in late. But society has other ideas and forces him up early in the morning to bend to society's rules. Sleep deprivation can cause lower performance.

Soon to be released; my new book, "Eat, Sleep, Play". It will be a huge best seller.

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Pre59 on Mar 18, 2017, 06:12AM


And of course, we need to have a renown surgeon's intimate knowledge of an aperture to understand the basic concept of how it works...

...Geezer


The fact that you can hold a pencil between your lips is all you kneed to know. The lips can be focused in and out, get it wrong and you've got either a pinched nasty tone, or a breathy unfocused one. Use the optimum balance of aperture and air for the desired register and volume and you have a result.

I've got a little trick to demonstrate aperture; I play a middle F and contract the lips until the tone gets pinched almost to the point of failure, then release slightly. Then holding this set, I play an upwards chromatic scale and as I get above top Bb the tone becomes better as I pass the F and beyond. This is extreme, but it makes a point IMO.



Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 18, 2017, 07:37AM


The fact that you can hold a pencil between your lips is all you kneed to know. The lips can be focused in and out, get it wrong and you've got either a pinched nasty tone, or a breathy unfocused one. Use the optimum balance of aperture and air for the desired register and volume and you have a result.

I've got a little trick to demonstrate aperture; I play a middle F and contract the lips until the tone gets pinched almost to the point of failure, then release slightly. Then holding this set, I play an upwards chromatic scale and as I get above top Bb the tone becomes better as I pass the F and beyond. This is extreme, but it makes a point IMO.


Okay. I got this.

(http://i1102.photobucket.com/albums/g454/BigBadTimboy/pencil2_zpsmji3y6bm.jpg)

Interesting little exercise! I totally get why you do it or show it to others to do. It re-enforces the concept of control over the size, shape, config of the aperture being probably the single biggest factor in hitting high notes. Shhhhh! This is a deep, dark secret around here. Don't tell anyone else.  ;)

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: timothy42b on Mar 18, 2017, 09:05AM
Remember it is an aperture shape not an orifice shape. 


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 18, 2017, 09:07AM
Remember it is an aperture shape not an orifice shape. 

It's both, actually.

But in my case, we won't talk about which orifice.   :-0

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Pre59 on Mar 18, 2017, 09:10AM
...and conversely, play an absolutely normal feeling mid F and holding that shape, play chromatically downwards and listen to the tone. Make no adjustments to compensate for the thinning tone. Caveat, this may vary depending on the bore and mouthpiece size.
When I played a 3B as my main horn I found myself using a smaller aperture in the upper region, whereas now, playing a .480/88 it feels like I'm using a broader aperture to thicken the mid and low notes.

Check out page 6 of Trombonizms, by Bill Watrous/Alan Ralph for further info. And by the way, I wouldn't consider myself to be a "Mic" player..


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: timothy42b on Mar 19, 2017, 09:02AM
It's both, actually.

But in my case, we won't talk about which orifice.   :-0

...Geezer

An aperture is a three dimensional tunnel.  An orifice is a two dimensional hole in a thin flat plate. 


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: BGuttman on Mar 19, 2017, 09:40AM
An aperture is a three dimensional tunnel.  An orifice is a two dimensional hole in a thin flat plate. 

Maybe so, but the term "aperture" is used for the embouchure producing the sound.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 19, 2017, 10:42AM
And it's simply ludicrous to try playing high notes on a pedal tone oral cavity. So the size, shape, etc of the oral cavity must - of necessity - change, as does the aperture.

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: timothy42b on Mar 19, 2017, 04:19PM
Maybe so, but the term "aperture" is used for the embouchure producing the sound.

Yes, and that is correct.  The embouchure passage through which air passes is a three dimensional tunnel.  It's not a circle, it's a cylinder (or some variation on that shape.) 


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: MrPillow on Mar 19, 2017, 04:49PM
And this pedantry is going where exactly?


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 19, 2017, 05:05PM
That's what I want to know as well.

How is the OP being helped?

I don't mean this rhetorically. How IS the OP being helped with junk science?

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Pre59 on Mar 20, 2017, 03:16AM
That's what I want to know as well.

How is the OP being helped?

I don't mean this rhetorically. How IS the OP being helped with junk science?

...Geezer

I don't think that you can help anybody do anything unless they're willing to get involved and engage in a dialogue..



Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 20, 2017, 05:23AM
I don't think that you can help anybody do anything unless they're willing to get involved and engage in a dialogue..


Yeah. That's the other side of the coin. It's a discussion. And since we probably gave good responses some three pages ago, the OP isn't helped by the snarky comment Mr P. made; who never made any positive contributions to this thread in the first place.

Some of us may think higher notes are achieved by re-positioning the horn on the chops (or the chops on the horn - however you wish to think). While others of us may think that higher notes are achieved by concentrating on managing the air stream via the aperture, chops, oral cavity and perhaps even the stomach muscles. Another way may be to select the equipment best suited for playing high; i.e. a smaller-bore horn and possibly either a smaller and/or shallower cupped mouthpiece. Still others may employ a mixed combination of the above three concepts. I really don't know if there is even another way still. Probably, and perhaps that will surface.

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Pre59 on Mar 20, 2017, 07:43AM
Er, whats the value of free advice again?


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 20, 2017, 07:51AM
Er, whats the value of free advice again?

Depends...

If the so-called "advice" is given by an amateur - nil. If the exact same so-called "advice" is given by a pro - tons. It's human nature for people to want good ideas from "good" sources. Otherwise, they are skeptical, and probably rightly so.

How much value do you put on YOUR free advice?

May we return to topic?

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: timothy42b on Mar 20, 2017, 08:42AM
I would not have described the aperture as a tunnel rather than a circle if I did not think it had some application to the topic.

I do still think that recommending an exercise, any exercise, without some details on how to do it does not help much. 

I also think that if the high range you're struggling with is F above the staff to high Bb, that may not be the same as struggling with high Bb to alt-F. 

There are those who struggle with alt-F to double F - they can post in some other thread. 


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 20, 2017, 09:04AM
I would not have described the aperture as a tunnel rather than a circle if I did not think it had some application to the topic.

I do still think that recommending an exercise, any exercise, without some details on how to do it does not help much. 

I also think that if the high range you're struggling with is F above the staff to high Bb, that may not be the same as struggling with high Bb to alt-F. 

There are those who struggle with alt-F to double F - they can post in some other thread. 

FWIW and for the purpose of your part in this discussion Tim, I agree with your assertions. Technically. I say, technically the aperture is 3-dimensional, unless the chops are the thickness or less of an electron and we (hopefully) all know they are not, hopefully. But truthfully, I have no clue as to what, if any value your concept has to the OP. It has none for me.

Apparently, the physics of a trombone (or maybe it's human physiology) is such that many of us can attain a good high C and no higher. There appears to be a break at that point and a high D is a whole 'nuther thing, as though there were a couple of rungs missing on the ladder upwards. But yes, I believe the OP's problems lie far below that point and it should be possible for him to correct and ascend rapidly.

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Pre59 on Mar 20, 2017, 10:09AM
Looking back over my posts on this topic I think that I've given some points worth considering, and I don't believe in long posts, I'd rather see how much genuine interest there is first.

As to whether the advice I attempt to give is as an amateur or pro, well, only a few hours ago I was in discussion with my accountant about winding my business up as the latter, and bring it on that's what I say.

But because we're not sat around in the same room with our hooters at the ready, it's all just "flim flam" anyway.

Enjoy your struggle..


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 20, 2017, 11:27AM
Looking back over my posts on this topic I think that I've given some points worth considering, and I don't believe in long posts, I'd rather see how much genuine interest there is first.

As to whether the advice I attempt to give is as an amateur or pro, well, only a few hours ago I was in discussion with my accountant about winding my business up as the latter, and bring it on that's what I say.

But because we're not sat around in the same room with our hooters at the ready, it's all just "flim flam" anyway.

Enjoy your struggle..

I'm never quite sure to whom you are directing all of your comments! You didn't quote me, but you posted directly underneath mine and with no direction as to whomever.  So   :dontknow:

It may have been a struggle for you, but it's growth for me and for - I hope - the OP as well!  :)

Hopefully we have muddied the waters enough that he will high-tail it to his instructor for guidance, which he should do anyway.  :D

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: harrison.t.reed on Mar 21, 2017, 06:53AM
The aperture is not like a tunnel or a circle. Its more like two roof tiles laid over one another. And depending on your under or overbite, the tiles might overlap a lot or a little bit. The air goes through it sort of like air going over a wing on a plane or through the cut in a flute. Changing the aperture changes how that airflow works.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 21, 2017, 07:08AM
The aperture is not like a tunnel or a circle. Its more like two roof tiles laid over one another. And depending on your under or overbite, the tiles might overlap a lot or a little bit. The air goes through it sort of like air going over a wing on a plane or through the cut in a flute. Changing the aperture changes how that airflow works.

Do you see any narrowing of the width of those tiles (I like that) when ascending? Or does the aperture have one width through all ranges?

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: bonenick on Mar 21, 2017, 07:18AM
Just hit the damn notes, guys  :/

It's a whole entity with tongue position, jaw position etc IMHO. you can't just change one component, this is not a modular trombone  :D


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 21, 2017, 08:41AM
Just hit the damn notes, guys  :/

It's a whole entity with tongue position, jaw position etc IMHO. you can't just change one component, this is not a modular trombone  :D

Lol. Really now. Don't you get  that if the OP and obviously some others could, they would !?! I don't think anyone analyzes what they can  do; they tend to over-analyze what they can't  do.

But yes, it seems to be just as highly coordinated as any other note is. It's just that we've had a LOT more time to establish it on the "other" notes. We've all played those "other" - lower - notes since childhood and have grown into them. We can grow into an upper range, but it always seems to take more time and effort. A real  high range doesn't seem like it's something that can be rushed or flipped on like a light switch.

IOW's, if was easy - everyone would be playing extremely high all day long.

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: bonenick on Mar 21, 2017, 08:58AM
A real  high range doesn't seem like it's something that can be rushed or flipped on like a light switch

Absolutely. I found that both on trumpet and trombone, soft playing of slurs and trills helps and forces (if the subject is not doing anything "funny" with his lips setting and mouthpiece placement) us to put everything in place as it should be. But it is not an overnight process. And often first, we get a squeak which eventually develops into a musical sound (note).


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 21, 2017, 09:39AM
Absolutely. I found that both on trumpet and trombone, soft playing of slurs and trills helps and forces (if the subject is not doing anything "funny" with his lips setting and mouthpiece placement) us to put everything in place as it should be. But it is not an overnight process. And often first, we get a squeak which eventually develops into a musical sound (note).

 :good:

I can't speak for anyone else, but part of my problem developing a "professional high range" is the amount of practice time I do every day. This past winter, I have been putting in a solid 4 hours a day; divided more-or-less equally into two sessions - morning and evening. While I am advancing on pretty much all fronts rapidly (under expert instruction!), I am fighting fatigue of high range. Otherwise, I am getting chops of steel and so I guess it's just a matter of time...

Notice I put the term "professional high range" in quotes. Anticipating some of the sharp-shooters calling me on it, I define a "professional high range" as full use of high D for an entry-level tenor pro and advancement on up as the pro seasons. I know there are a number of pros who can not play above high C. But that doesn't change how I view it. YMMV!

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Pre59 on Mar 21, 2017, 09:52AM
Just a little light relief,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXJ8tKRlW3E


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 21, 2017, 11:19AM
:good:

I can't speak for anyone else, but part of my problem developing a "professional high range" is the amount of practice time I do every day. This past winter, I have been putting in a solid 4 hours a day; divided more-or-less equally into two sessions - morning and evening. While I am advancing on pretty much all fronts rapidly (under expert instruction!), I am fighting fatigue of high range. Otherwise, I am getting chops of steel and so I guess it's just a matter of time...

Notice I put the term "professional high range" in quotes. Anticipating some of the sharp-shooters calling me on it, I define a "professional high range" as full use of high D for an entry-level tenor pro and advancement on up as the pro seasons. I know there are a number of pros who can not play above high C. But that doesn't change how I view it. YMMV!

...Geezer

The POINT is that the OP - if he is an industrious student - might be in the same boat. He may be practicing his butt off and wondering why his range is - in his opinion - lagging. It's a dilemma I have often chaffed about; the amount of time needed on the horn for technical gains vs the amount of rest time the chops need to build back up. They seem to interfere with each other. I don't see piano players lamenting about sore fingers, hand and wrists - or do they?

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: MrPillow on Mar 21, 2017, 11:23AM
Many are the pianists who have been reduced to back, shoulder, neck, and carpal tunnel surgeries. The list goes on. Every instrument has some level of particular physical barrier.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Piano man on Mar 21, 2017, 11:51AM
Many are the pianists who have been reduced to back, shoulder, neck, and carpal tunnel surgeries. The list goes on. Every instrument has some level of particular physical barrier.

This is why doing it right is so important, and speaks to having proper instruction. A small physical error in one's playing, carried over years of repetition, can do real harm. I'm self-taught on piano (learned it by accident writing big band charts) and was lucky enough to stumble into a way of playing that doesn't hurt my body. It doesn't hurt that I play half as many notes as a good player.

My friend, who's much better than I, has all kinds of hand problems and calls me for two-keyboard gigs as his 'right-hand man' when things are acting up.

I played Holiday Inns for years with a guitar player who started having physical problems. Turned out to be the way he was standing. When you do six-nighters, that stuff matters. He's older than I am, and is very careful how he stands, and still plays.

I would suggest anyone who plays a lot of hours should have professional instruction, because no instrument is worth crippling yourself over.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: bonenick on Mar 21, 2017, 11:52AM
I found that frequent but short rests do a lot more good (at least to me) than long rest after long periods of playing with no rest.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Piano man on Mar 21, 2017, 11:54AM
Perhaps a good discussion on playing high ought to involve how we condition our bodies in general as well as our minds.
...Geezer

The main conditioning for high range should be in the biceps. If your teeth aren't moving, you're not using enough pressure.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: bonenick on Mar 21, 2017, 12:13PM
I heard a story in my home country (Bulgaria) about a trumpet student/bodybuilder who was so stressed during an exam that he grabbed the valves of his trumpet so hard, that he broke the valve casing....


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 21, 2017, 01:02PM
 :amazed:   :amazed:   :amazed:   :amazed:

Eye-opening responses!

I guess it's all mind-over-matter. If your chops don't mind, it doesn't matter.

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Pre59 on Mar 21, 2017, 02:12PM
The OP hasn't been back, so there you go.

They'll be a similar topic around soon, it keeps the forum alive..


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Piano man on Mar 21, 2017, 09:57PM
The OP hasn't been back, so there you go.

They'll be a similar topic around soon, it keeps the forum alive..

Yeah, but how do you hit high notes?


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Piano man on Mar 21, 2017, 09:58PM
Seriously, someone told me that playing falset tones improves high register, and I think it works. Not sure why.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Doug Elliott on Mar 21, 2017, 11:05PM
Have you tried helium?


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Pre59 on Mar 22, 2017, 03:59AM
Yeah, but how do you hit high notes?

Piano man, if you want to have a discourse on this, and by that I mean an exchange of Q and A's, I'm more than happy to share my personal view how I build and maintain my range.





Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: bonenick on Mar 22, 2017, 05:32AM
Actually "Hit" is a very poor choice of a word for that.

Hitting and banging notes in the high register in a high adrenalin fashion is going hardly to do develop anything besides tendinits or lip/muscle injuries.

Low adrenalin soft playing of slurs and trills in a well controled fashion with as little effort as possible with frequent and short rest is likely to develop the high register on any brass instrument.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Piano man on Mar 22, 2017, 11:35AM
Piano man, if you want to have a discourse on this, and by that I mean an exchange of Q and A's, I'm more than happy to share my personal view how I build and maintain my range.

I was joking. I am a returning player (and barely that) and the one thing that wasn't a challenge for me after all those years was range. High range was actually easier for me right out of the gate than before I quit playing. Endurance, not so much. So now I'm a really lousy trombonist who can play high notes.

I was serious about false tones, though. Somebody told me that when I was in high school and it seems to help.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Pre59 on Mar 22, 2017, 12:40PM
I was joking. I am a returning player (and barely that) and the one thing that wasn't a challenge for me after all those years was range. High range was actually easier for me right out of the gate than before I quit playing. Endurance, not so much. So now I'm a really lousy trombonist who can play high notes.

I was serious about false tones, though. Somebody told me that when I was in high school and it seems to help.

Fair enough. I guess focusing on mid range long tones etc is the way to go, but you may need to find a way to integrate your high range into the rest of your playing. For this, I use a form of lip flexibilities which are not so linear as the standard form. i.e. not going down the slide 1234567 etc. I break up the positions like, 1324357 or 14 25 36 with reverse directions, and flexing in different directions as well, which is musically more satisfying and useful.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: BGuttman on Mar 22, 2017, 01:14PM
Actually, I read about using falset tones in an exercise by the late Paul Tanner.  Sorry he's no longer here to defend himself but one of his students used to post messages from him on the Forum.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 22, 2017, 01:21PM
This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but pardon me if I remain a skeptic about developing high range without playing high. Is it like "The art of fighting without fighting" - Bruce Lee in "Enter The Dragon". lol

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: ssking2b on Mar 22, 2017, 01:33PM
This isn't directed at anyone in particular, but pardon me if I remain a skeptic about developing high range without playing high. ...Geezer
My teacher, the late Lewis Van Haney, was the all about practicing in the registers, up and down, that you need to play in.  He insisted that that upper register was built on a combo of air support, and embrochure, and that the embrochure DID change somewhat is the registers of the notes went up and down.  He showed me, as did Phil Wilson, that  proper support would easily give you a high note, even with out loads of air.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 22, 2017, 01:53PM
My teacher, the late Lewis Van Haney, was the all about practicing in the registers, up and down, that you need to play in.  He insisted that that upper register was built on a combo of air support, and embrochure, and that the embrochure DID change somewhat is the registers of the notes went up and down.  He showed me, as did Phil Wilson, that  proper support would easily give you a high note, even with out loads of air.

Please define "proper support" b/c I am led to believe there are some here who erroneously feel there is no need for it.

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: bonenick on Mar 22, 2017, 02:04PM
by definition high register requires less quantities of air.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: savio on Mar 22, 2017, 03:07PM
If I only could find the post from Ralph Sauer how to hit high notes. It was a bit funny but I'm sure effective. If I remember correct it was about short high notes and he told to use the same muscles as when sitting on the toilet...it had something to do with air :-0 But I dont remember exactly what words he used.

My take on high notes must be read with a lot of salt since its my struggle number one  :/

I believe how we use the air is important. Maybe less than we think but with lot of support. The vocal is best with eeeee. Embouchure muscles around the mouth should point in to the center of the buzz.

Well, again read with lot of salt....I cant play high. I can in fact play chords up to the very high D. But cant play safe over the high G above the staff. The problem is I cant get it controlled even if I can hit them.

Low end also has a lot to do with using the air not to much, but also not to little.

Leif


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: bonenick on Mar 22, 2017, 03:15PM
Leif,

I've found that both on trumpet and trombone, breath attacks and the so called sub-tones help with accuracy in high register.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: timothy42b on Mar 23, 2017, 06:53AM
Please define "proper support" b/c I am led to believe there are some here who erroneously feel there is no need for it.

...Geezer

Geezer,
I've heard Philip play, he really knows his stuff.  His high range is amazing.

I personally don't know how to define proper support.  I believe it is important but I also think when you tell someone to support, without being there in person to show them what you mean, that they always interpret that to tense the abdominal muscles like they were going to be punched, and I'm pretty sure that's wrong.

I guess you could do an experiment.  Hold a high note, one above where you can play loud.  Focus your attention on your abdomen, consciously relax it, and slowly add a small amount of firmness and see what happens to the note.  If you build yourself a bad habit trying this don't blame me. 


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: timothy42b on Mar 23, 2017, 06:56AM
If I only could find the post from Ralph Sauer how to hit high notes. It was a bit funny but I'm sure effective. If I remember correct it was about short high notes and he told to use the same muscles as when sitting on the toilet...it had something to do with air :-0 But I dont remember exactly what words he used.

Leif

Leif,
The quote I heard was attributed to Dominick Sperra, a trumpet player of note in the 70s.  It's second hand but my brother was at his clinic.  He may have stolen it from Ralph.  Or, vice versa. 

He said, "Hold the 50 cent piece in.  (in your bottom)  And don't make change!" 

In David Vining's book on breathing, he talks about the pelvic floor as being like a second diaphragm. 


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 23, 2017, 07:08AM
Leif,
The quote I heard was attributed to Dominick Sperra, a trumpet player of note in the 70s.  It's second hand but my brother was at his clinic.  He may have stolen it from Ralph.  Or, vice versa. 

He said, "Hold the 50 cent piece in.  (in your bottom)  And don't make change!" 

In David Vining's book on breathing, he talks about the pelvic floor as being like a second diaphragm. 

Rather contradictory to your poo-pooing breath support, eh?

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: timothy42b on Mar 23, 2017, 07:12AM
Rather contradictory to your poo-pooing breath support, eh?

...Geezer

Geezer,

Conventional wisdom 50 years ago was to tighten the stomach muscles as much as possible.

That is no longer in style, and some believe it may have been the cause of the rash of hernias in trumpet players.

I've been reluctant to give my ideas of breath support but I guess I will share them for your ridicule, next chance I get. 


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 23, 2017, 07:14AM
Geezer,

Conventional wisdom 50 years ago was to tighten the stomach muscles as much as possible.

That is no longer in style, and some believe it may have been the cause of the rash of hernias in trumpet players.

I've been reluctant to give my ideas of breath support but I guess I will share them for your ridicule, next chance I get. 

That believe is on you. Maybe it's the pain meds.

Who says?

...Geezer



Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: bonenick on Mar 23, 2017, 07:15AM
Rather contradictory to your poo-pooing breath support, eh?

...Geezer

OMG  :/ Next thing to do - WC trombone method book  :amazed:


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: BillO on Mar 23, 2017, 07:31AM
An aperture is a three dimensional tunnel.  An orifice is a two dimensional hole in a thin flat plate. 
Not sure where your definitions come from.  They don't seem to agree with accepted definitions of these words.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aperture_(disambiguation) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aperture_(disambiguation))

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orifice  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orifice)


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 23, 2017, 07:49AM
OMG  :/ Next thing to do - WC trombone method book  :amazed:

What is "WC"? I tried Googling "WC trombone method book" and got nothing.

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: bonenick on Mar 23, 2017, 07:54AM
What is "WC"? I tried Googling "WC trombone method book" and got nothing.

...Geezer

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flush_toilet


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 23, 2017, 07:54AM
Not sure where your definitions come from.  They don't seem to agree with accepted definitions of these words.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aperture_(disambiguation) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aperture_(disambiguation))

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orifice  (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orifice)

I guess I'm at risk for "ridiculing" Tim, but maybe it's his passive-aggressive style of expression and I paraphrase: "I can't find the source, but I kinda, sorta think he meant...", or "I can't take the time to find the exact quote, but I maybe, sorta, kinda think he meant...", or "My memory isn't what it used to be, but I kinda, sorta, maybe think it went something like this...".  ;)

I'm kinda, sorta, much more inclined to give credence to a thought that is more concretely expressed.  :evil:

Anyway, to paraphrase Pre59 in another thread, the subject of high-range development will surely come up again and again and again. Maybe we will get it right next time!  :amazed:

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 23, 2017, 07:55AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flush_toilet

I don't get it.

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: bonenick on Mar 23, 2017, 07:58AM
Well...while you were brainstorming over the pooing concept...maybe we should change the practice room to a more convenient room....nevertheless, a long handslide could be a problem.

Could be it was a bad joke :-0


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: BillO on Mar 23, 2017, 08:07AM
What is "WC"? I tried Googling "WC trombone method book" and got nothing.

...Geezer
WC = Water Closet ... (toilet, maybe?)...


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 23, 2017, 08:18AM
WC = Water Closet ... (toilet, maybe?)...

Oh! Yeah, I think that's what he meant. lol

Anyway, just b/c something is written somewhere in a book is not enough for me. Even though that book may be esteemed, I still like to filter long-time pedagogy through present-day success stories. There are a lot of "experts" on TTF. It's up to us as individuals to decide with whom we wish to hitch our wagon.

Good discussion, though - if we view it as such.

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: timothy42b on Mar 23, 2017, 09:00AM
Well...while you were brainstorming over the pooing concept...maybe we should change the practice room to a more convenient room....nevertheless, a long handslide could be a problem.

Could be it was a bad joke :-0

I printed a copy of geezer's post.

I am sitting in the smallest room in my house.

His post is before me.

Shortly, it shall be behind me.

(apologies to Mr. Rossini.  PS I like your cartoon music, awesome)


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: timothy42b on Mar 23, 2017, 09:01AM
I am not opposed to breath support.

I am opposed to telling someone to "support."  never saw that end well. 


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: harrison.t.reed on Mar 23, 2017, 08:33PM
Do you see any narrowing of the width of those tiles (I like that) when ascending? Or does the aperture have one width through all ranges?

...Geezer

The angle changes. The speed and air direction follows suit.

I can't tell if the space changes much. Just the angle of the "tiles" over one another.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Pre59 on Mar 24, 2017, 04:36AM
If you can take the time to sift through these video's, there's some good slowed down shots of high and low note playing.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=wilktone+embouchure


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: timothy42b on Mar 24, 2017, 06:01AM
I was thinking of responding yesterday but I took a pain pill instead. 

No, not because of the discussion.  Kidney stones. 

I'll share my thoughts now.  I don't claim they are right, nor even that I'll still agree tomorrow.  Sorry I'm going to ramble a little but I just might connect it to Geezer's beloved breath support.

High range is tricky (I used the word carefully rather than hard or difficult) because you have so little margin for error.

A basketball is 9 inches across, and the basket 18.  How can you miss?  Well, when you're really close, a large error in trajectory doesn't hurt.  At three point range, even a tiny error is a fail, you have to be dead on.  Left, right, high, low, too much arch, too flat an arch, anything makes you fail.  Plus, the force required to throw the ball as far as a three point shot is large.  So you must develop that strength, and practicing three point shots becomes tiring.  Finally (running out of analogy here) to become consistent you must repeat that correct combination of aim and strength many times, but in the beginning you do it correctly only a tiny percentage of the time.  It may take you a very long time to do it right even once.  Oh, one more thing, you can throw it that far with pure arm strength, or by using body momentum and weight transfer properly you can throw it the same distance with a fraction of the effort. 

I think there is some similarity to high range, in that you have to do everything right:  upper and lower lip tension, lip overlap, direction of air stream, pressure of mouthpiece, tongue position, breath supply, stuff I haven't even thought of.  The margin for error gets very small up there.  And like the basketball shot, it make take you a long time to hit on the combination to do it right even once - for some people that may be never.  Then you have to repeat it until you own it, without tiring out in the process.  We know it can be done, some people have incredible mastery of it.  The fact we call it incredible is testament to the challenge. 

Hmm.  Not sure the last pill has totally worn off.  Little fuzzy thinking here. 

Anyway, Geezer talks about breath "support," which is in fact the most common term, but I think maybe that's wrong.  Breath "support" is a term that instantly brings our attention to the muscles that do something, but doesn't define what we need.

Here is my assertion:  high range does not require any type of breath support.  It requires a very precisely metered and very precisely steady flow of air.  That's all. 

But, that's a lot.  For any given condition (the note, the dynamic, the lip tension) that air flow has to be exact.  A little too much or too little and it doesn't work. 

Given the right air flow, it doesn't matter if we got there with a boxer's punch proof abs or a relaxed conversational breath.  But you do need a consistent approach for how to get there.  I do have an idea for an approach but I'll save it, I've rambled too long already.  I'm using the term flow exclusively; I think that's all there is.  Pressure is all but nonexistent at these levels and temperature or humidity are just mental images, not reality.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: bonenick on Mar 24, 2017, 06:12AM
With the risk of becoming annoying, I will still maintain my initial statement:

Whatever the type of player, the soft playing of slurs and lips trills will often intuitively help them to find the needed placement and embouchure movements. They don't need to know all the theory behind. All these analysis can be rather helpful to the teachers.

My lead to embouchure is often sound. If it sounds good, nobody can argue with.

The only real application for all of these observation seems to be to help teachers make educated guesses of what causes a problem (where there is one) and how to relieve it. Still, there will be inavoidable (correct me if I am wrong) process of trials and errors.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 24, 2017, 06:30AM
I was thinking of responding yesterday but I took a pain pill instead. 

No, not because of the discussion.  Kidney stones. 

I'll share my thoughts now.  I don't claim they are right, nor even that I'll still agree tomorrow.  Sorry I'm going to ramble a little but I just might connect it to Geezer's beloved breath support.

High range is tricky (I used the word carefully rather than hard or difficult) because you have so little margin for error.

A basketball is 9 inches across, and the basket 18.  How can you miss?  Well, when you're really close, a large error in trajectory doesn't hurt.  At three point range, even a tiny error is a fail, you have to be dead on.  Left, right, high, low, too much arch, too flat an arch, anything makes you fail.  Plus, the force required to throw the ball as far as a three point shot is large.  So you must develop that strength, and practicing three point shots becomes tiring.  Finally (running out of analogy here) to become consistent you must repeat that correct combination of aim and strength many times, but in the beginning you do it correctly only a tiny percentage of the time.  It may take you a very long time to do it right even once.  Oh, one more thing, you can throw it that far with pure arm strength, or by using body momentum and weight transfer properly you can throw it the same distance with a fraction of the effort. 

I think there is some similarity to high range, in that you have to do everything right:  upper and lower lip tension, lip overlap, direction of air stream, pressure of mouthpiece, tongue position, breath supply, stuff I haven't even thought of.  The margin for error gets very small up there.  And like the basketball shot, it make take you a long time to hit on the combination to do it right even once - for some people that may be never.  Then you have to repeat it until you own it, without tiring out in the process.  We know it can be done, some people have incredible mastery of it.  The fact we call it incredible is testament to the challenge. 

Hmm.  Not sure the last pill has totally worn off.  Little fuzzy thinking here. 

Anyway, Geezer talks about breath "support," which is in fact the most common term, but I think maybe that's wrong.  Breath "support" is a term that instantly brings our attention to the muscles that do something, but doesn't define what we need.

Here is my assertion:  high range does not require any type of breath support.  It requires a very precisely metered and very precisely steady flow of air.  That's all. 

But, that's a lot.  For any given condition (the note, the dynamic, the lip tension) that air flow has to be exact.  A little too much or too little and it doesn't work. 

Given the right air flow, it doesn't matter if we got there with a boxer's punch proof abs or a relaxed conversational breath.  But you do need a consistent approach for how to get there.  I do have an idea for an approach but I'll save it, I've rambled too long already.  I'm using the term flow exclusively; I think that's all there is.  Pressure is all but nonexistent at these levels and temperature or humidity are just mental images, not reality.

No breath support = no air.

No muscular effort = no work done.

But don't overdo either one.

Relaxed and tension-free effort = finesse. Unless you have re-invented yourself tim, the last vid (or maybe it was a pic) you posted (that I am aware of) showed you looking like an overly-coiled spring ready to snap.

Finesse = success.

With the risk of becoming annoying, I will still maintain my initial statement:

Whatever the type of player, the soft playing of slurs and lip trills will often intuitively help them to find the needed placement and embouchure movements. They don't need to know all the theory behind. All these analysis can be rather helpful to the teachers.

My lead to embouchure is often sound. If it sounds good, nobody can argue with.

The only real application for all of these observation seems to be to help teachers make educated guesses of what causes a problem (where there is one) and how to relieve it. Still, there will be inavoidable (correct me if I am wrong) and process of trials and errors.

Probably THE best idea to live by, if a beginner can trill. Maybe just leave it as "the soft playing of slurs". We probably ought to add glisses into the party mix as well.

I also think there is a lot to be said for 2-octave scales as well as exercises that go up high and repeatedly ping on the very highest of notes within a modestly narrow range, then retreat back down.

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: bonenick on Mar 24, 2017, 06:38AM
Quote
Probably THE best idea to live by, if a beginner can trill. Maybe just leave it as "the soft playing of slurs". We probably ought to add glisses into the party mix as well.

Exactly. Didn't think of glisses, but that's a good idea. As for slurred scales and intervales I thought that it was included in slur soft playing.

It is tonguing and "hitting" high notes, accompanied with a fair amount of adrenalin that often messes everthing up. We all have been probably there  :clever:


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 24, 2017, 06:43AM
Exactly. Didn't think of glisses, but that's a good idea. As for slurred scales and intervales I thought that it was included in slur soft playing.

It is tonguing and "hitting" high notes, accompanied with a fair amount of adrenalin that often messes everthing up. We all have been probably there  :clever:

Slurred scales? How about across-the-grain slurring? Start on say, a tuning Bb and rapidly slur across-the-grain to a high Bb in 3rd and back, repeatedly. Then start on D in first and do the same thing up to high C in 3rd and back, repeatedly. Then go up to F in 1st, etc. Does that have merit?

I think you've raised a good point that "hitting" high notes might be counter-productive. That's why I prefer the term "pinging".

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: bonenick on Mar 24, 2017, 06:47AM
Being a non-Native English speaker I am not sure what across-the-grain slurring must mean. Sound something like partials slurring. Anyway, it is probably good, I think that we are on the roughly same vibe regarding this question.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 24, 2017, 06:53AM
Being a non-Native English speaker I am not sure what across-the-grain slurring must mean. Sound something like partials slurring. Anyway, it is probably good, I think that we are on the roughly same vibe regarding this question.

Oh. Okay. "Across-the-grain" slurring means slurring up  from a given note while moving the slide out , or slurring down  from a given note while moving the slide in. It's kinda the opposite of a gliss?

 :good:

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: bonenick on Mar 24, 2017, 06:56AM
I've seen that done by friends-trombonists, but so far I haven't had a go  at it. I'll try to see how it goes  :good:


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: timothy42b on Mar 24, 2017, 06:57AM
With the risk of becoming annoying, I will still maintain my initial statement:

Whatever the type of player, the soft playing of slurs and lips trills will often intuitively help them to find the needed placement and embouchure movements. They don't need to know all the theory behind. All these analysis can be rather helpful to the teachers.

I don't think you are annoying; I think you are correct.

But I also think your approach is most suited to one type of player, the type that tends to learn "inner tennis" style, and that approach is very frustrating to some other types of player.  


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 24, 2017, 07:04AM
I've seen that done by friends-trombonists, but so far I haven't had a go  at it. I'll try to see how it goes  :good:

I'm not positive, but I think  this gentleman is doing "cross-grain-slurs" at about mile marker 3:06.

The Way We Were (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39S7Hk296UE)

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: timothy42b on Mar 24, 2017, 07:04AM
No breath support = no air.

No muscular effort = no work done.

But don't overdo either one.

...Geezer

Ah Geezer, now I have no clue what you are advocating.

You've been hammering breath support, breath support, breath support, in post after post, and now you say "no big deal, just don't overdo."  

How is the OP supposed to interpret your advice?

Quote
Relaxed and tension-free effort = finesse. Unless you have re-invented yourself tim, the last vid (or maybe it was a pic) you posted (that I am aware of) showed you looking like an overly-coiled spring ready to snap

Dang, geezer!  Obviously I'll have to do another video!  

Wait, try this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Brgq7fjLAnY

(Very bad form, was roundly criticized by the pros on that other forum)  


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: timothy42b on Mar 24, 2017, 07:07AM
I'm not positive, but I think  this gentleman is doing "cross-grain-slurs" at about mile marker 3:06.

The Way We Were (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=39S7Hk296UE)

...Geezer

FWIW, Don Lucas commented on cross-grain or natural (vs legato tongued) slurs at ATW this month.

He said if you advocate all tongued or all natural slurs you are wrong.  Let the music determine what is needed.  Made sense to me, I hadn't thought of it that way.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 24, 2017, 07:17AM
Ah Geezer, now I have no clue what you are advocating.

You've been hammering breath support, breath support, breath support, in post after post, and now you say "no big deal, just don't overdo."  

How is the OP supposed to interpret your advice?

Dang, geezer!  Obviously I'll have to do another video!  

Wait, try this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Brgq7fjLAnY

(Very bad form, was roundly criticized by the pros on that other forum)  

Gots to keep 'em off balance! Make them think!

Support from a relaxed mental and physical state. Be one with the horn, Grasshoppah!

No, your form looks at least relaxed in that vid. It's the other  ones on your channel where you are torturing a trombone to death. Do you have a tendency to bend the cross-braces on your left-hand grips? And OBTW: that stiff-arm pumping slide technique is the berries! How long did it take you to "master" that?

OBTW: I got a big chuckle out of your "smallest room of the house" retort. I don't know what you were doing in there, but note to self: don't send tim any pics of self.  :D

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 24, 2017, 07:20AM
FWIW, Don Lucas commented on cross-grain or natural (vs legato tongued) slurs at ATW this month.

He said if you advocate all tongued or all natural slurs you are wrong.  Let the music determine what is needed.  Made sense to me, I hadn't thought of it that way.

Well, I certainly think Randy "let the music determine what is needed". Anyway, that vid wasn't supposed to get corrupted to be about musicality, it was intended to show an "across-the-grain" technique that could possibly be used as an exercise in range-building. I guess that went past you?

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Pre59 on Mar 24, 2017, 08:21AM
Playing across the grain is bread and butter in my reality, (?) especially when combined with long shifts, it makes playing melodies in Tbn unfriendly keys more doable and musical.

Just sharing that, not needing any validation..  :)


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 24, 2017, 08:26AM
Playing across the grain is bread and butter in my reality, (?) especially when combined with long shifts, it makes playing melodies in Tbn unfriendly keys more doable and musical.

Just sharing that, not needing any validation..  :)

When playing high-range stuff, there are trombone-unfriendly keys? Is this a new concept?  :D

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 24, 2017, 11:30AM
Ah Geezer, now I have no clue what you are advocating.

You've been hammering breath support, breath support, breath support, in post after post, and now you say "no big deal, just don't overdo."  

How is the OP supposed to interpret your advice?

Dang, geezer!  Obviously I'll have to do another video!  

Wait, try this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Brgq7fjLAnY

(Very bad form, was roundly criticized by the pros on that other forum)  

I ran across this guy. Forget for just one minute that he is NOT a trombone player.

PMJ: Sledgehammer (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Kc6dWd28TI)

Just watching the first 20 seconds of it ought to be enough.

See how relaxed and in-the-groove the lead man is? Now let's all compare how we play with how that performer plays. Is there any difference? I'm starting to get the idea that relaxation is beneficial but I'm also wondering why we usually don't see trombone players nearly as relaxed. Is it the horn? Is it a lack of proper pedagogy? Is it just not important to anyone? Or is it that only the very best players among us get it?

What does this have to do with learning how to play in the high range? Everything?????

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: harrison.t.reed on Mar 24, 2017, 11:47AM
Sometimes you gotta post a video to prove your point, Tim.

I liked your pBone mini video. Videos are very telling to back up what any poster here is talking about.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: timothy42b on Mar 24, 2017, 12:15PM
Something I'd like to get off my chest about my videos.

Geezer puts a lot of effort into making his artistic, and I appreciate the work and the talent.

But my approach is different.  They're all done live, one take, no prep - they're an instant snapshot of where I was at that moment, most just a quick experiment.  Some of them suck farts out of dead seagulls. 

I leave them up because I consider us friends here, and I don't worry because I don't get that many hits outside of us.  Maybe that's not a great idea.  If I were chumming for gigs I'd be culling them, and spending some time trying to do a good one.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Pre59 on Mar 24, 2017, 01:45PM
When playing high-range stuff, there are trombone-unfriendly keys? Is this a new concept?  :D

...Geezer

I forgot to include playing in the lower range, where fretting and economical slide positions come into their own. "Tenderly" in Eb being a good example, unless you want to play it in the higher octave, hitting those High Notes.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: bonenick on Mar 24, 2017, 01:52PM
I forgot to include playing in the lower range, where fretting and economical slide positions come into their own. "Tenderly" in Eb being a good example, unless you want to play it in the higher octave, hitting those High Notes.

I can just slur them to make things easier...


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 25, 2017, 07:47AM
All snit-fits aside; to breath support or not to breath support is a key question.  :confused:

I will be taking it up with my instructor, as all amateurs ought to do, the OP included. And I'll stick with my instructor's information on it, as all amateurs and the OP ought to do.  :idea:

If everyone had a good instructor for this topic and other topics, there really should be no instruction asked for on this Forum for issues regarding technique. Inquiries on this forum really should be reduced to more mundane things like mouthpiece measurements, YouTube trombone players, chit-chat, etc.  :clever:

It's a very quiet morning. Just thought I would kick the hornet's nest.  :evil:

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: harrison.t.reed on Mar 25, 2017, 08:03AM
All snit-fits aside; to breath support or not to breath support is a key question.  :confused:

I will be taking it up with my instructor

...Geezer

 :confused: :confused:

Yes. Breath support. What's the alternative?

The trombone isn't a buzz amplifying megaphone.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 25, 2017, 08:23AM
:confused: :confused:

Yes. Breath support. What's the alternative?

The trombone isn't a buzz amplifying megaphone.

Well, the argument seems to be that it is not necessary. So I guess according to some, we aren't supposed to breath when playing b/c when we do - the diaphragm is engaged and that is the very essence of "breath support". As far as I am concerned, it's a question of degree; a lot vs a little.   :dontknow:

...Geezer, the rock-bottom rank beginner who doesn't play nearly enough notes   :D


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: harrison.t.reed on Mar 25, 2017, 08:39AM
I guess if you're a face player who uses a mic you can do the trombone megaphone thing. Plenty of pros have made a living doing that ....

We already had this argument about type one vs type two players. One uses air and the horn to form the embouchure. The other muscles the embouchure out and puts the resistance at their face. Probably requires less air too.

If any amateurs are seriously looking for advice on  how to play anything that isn't stylized mic playing ... this is a pretty bogus place to be pulling advice from.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 25, 2017, 08:55AM
I guess if you're a face player who uses a mic you can do the trombone megaphone thing. Plenty of pros have made a living doing that ....

We already had this argument about type one vs type two players. One uses air and the horn to form the embouchure. The other muscles the embouchure out and puts the resistance at their face. Probably requires less air too.

If any amateurs are seriously looking for advice on  how to play anything that isn't stylized mic playing ... this is a pretty bogus place to be pulling advice from.

Agreed. As I've stated and as others are just coming to recognize, this forum is social media, not a series of white papers. Maybe it used to be when the Internet was in diapers, but not now - since superficiality in everyday life has come to vogue.

...Geezer, the rock-bottom rank beginner who doesn't play nearly enough notes


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: harrison.t.reed on Mar 25, 2017, 09:02AM
Aw geezer, don't put yourself down in your signature.

There's still a lot of good info being put out here, despite my best efforts. It's a great platform to see who is doing what. Like buzzing or not.

Debating whether or not to support with lots of air is pretty bogus though....


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 25, 2017, 09:19AM
Aw geezer, don't put yourself down in your signature.

There's still a lot of good info being put out here, despite my best efforts. It's a great platform to see who is doing what. Like buzzing or not.

Debating whether or not to support with lots of air is pretty bogus though....

Lol. I do that to flip off...

There is. It makes for interesting reading when there is absolutely NOTHING else of interest.  :evil:

...Geezer, with the million-dollar tone - using the Mies Van Der Rohe principle


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: baileyman on Mar 25, 2017, 10:15AM
I'll be performing a solo in a few months where I have to hit a C one octave above middle C (:trebleclef: :space3:) a few times, sometimes jumping up and down the octave in one beat (:trebleclef: :lowerledger1: ->  :space3:) I can hit the note, but not consistently and not easily. It sounds like I'm struggling and takes a few seconds before I can sustain it. Any tips on how to get the note consistently?

There seem to be three basic ways to get higher:

1 More air
2 Smaller aperture
3 tongue position

You can explore these on easy partials without busting your chops.  Try F to Bb in the staff.  Starting on F, add more air while trying to keep all else constant.  You may find you can get back and forth controlling air alone. 

Similarly, try getting from the F to the Bb by keeping all constant except contract your aperture. 

And finally, play the F and then raise the tongue from the back toward the front, something like "ah" to "ee" or "i".  You may find the note pops up. 

You can do this in higher and higher partials and explore how they work.  "Hard" high  notes seem to be gotten to mostly by the "more air" approach.  The aperture and especially the tongue seem to more dramatically tune the face for higher vibration.  "easy" high notes exist.  It's a matter of doing the exploration. 



Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 25, 2017, 11:18AM
There seem to be three basic ways to get higher:

1 More air
2 Smaller aperture
3 tongue position

You can explore these on easy partials without busting your chops.  Try F to Bb in the staff.  Starting on F, add more air while trying to keep all else constant.  You may find you can get back and forth controlling air alone. 

Similarly, try getting from the F to the Bb by keeping all constant except contract your aperture. 

And finally, play the F and then raise the tongue from the back toward the front, something like "ah" to "ee" or "i".  You may find the note pops up. 

You can do this in higher and higher partials and explore how they work.  "Hard" high  notes seem to be gotten to mostly by the "more air" approach.  The aperture and especially the tongue seem to more dramatically tune the face for higher vibration.  "easy" high notes exist.  It's a matter of doing the exploration. 


I think this is worth experimentation!

What I really like about his approach is that he doesn't just say "more air" - as others around here might - thinking that alone is enough (NO IT ISN'T!). He EXPLAINS what  "more air" means and it makes sense to me and hopefully to others as well. I use it as an approach to slurring partials without dynamically changing the chops. I've been instructed not to change the chops for that exercise. Sure, the chops do change; but they passively  change as the frequency of the vibration changes, instead of me actively trying to change the chops to change the frequency. BIG difference in tone quality!

Definitely worth some practice time to find the right combinations.

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: bonenick on Mar 25, 2017, 11:57AM
We (or most of us) don't normally use more air in high register.

We may run faster out of air up there, but that doesn't necessarily mean that we use more of it.

I hope that makes sense... :/


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 25, 2017, 01:02PM
We (or most of us) don't normally use more air in high register.

We may run faster out of air up there, but that doesn't necessarily mean that we use more of it.

I hope that makes sense... :/

I know what you are stating, but I don't think you understand his concept. If I do, then it's bumping the note up with a small shot of air - kinda like giving a car a little momentary surge of gas to make the transmission change gears.

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: bonenick on Mar 25, 2017, 01:28PM
I would rather think of a garden hose...but yes, that's kind of the direction I am thinking....


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Piano man on Mar 25, 2017, 03:21PM
Well, the argument seems to be that it is not necessary. So I guess according to some, we aren't supposed to breath when playing b/c when we do - the diaphragm is engaged and that is the very essence of "breath support".

Geezer, you're beating this dead horse into a pulp, and you're misinterpreting what was said.

No one has said 'breath support isn't important', or that we aren't supposed to breathe when playing. What was said was that what people call 'breath support' can be both unnecessary and unhelpful.

What Tim said is that if you tell people to tighten their diaphragm they're most often going to tighten their abdominal muscles instead. Your diaphragm is between your lungs and your abdominal cavity, and you don't have as much conscious control of it as you think, so you tighten the abs. I know that's what I did when I was told that as a kid. Apparently that can be both counterproductive and unhealthy. In other words, a teacher can show you how he changes his setup for high notes; telling someone on a forum "Use more breath support" or 'tighten your diaphragm' is unlikely to yield a good result.

He's right. You should let it go.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 25, 2017, 03:30PM
Geezer, you're beating this dead horse into a pulp, and you're misinterpreting what was said.

No one has said 'breath support isn't important', or that we aren't supposed to breathe when playing. What was said was that what people call 'breath support' can be both unnecessary and unhelpful.

What Tim said is that if you tell people to tighten their diaphragm they're most often going to tighten their abdominal muscles instead. Your diaphragm is between your lungs and your abdominal cavity, and you don't have as much conscious control of it as you think, so you tighten the abs. I know that's what I did when I was told that as a kid. Apparently that can be both counterproductive and unhealthy. In other words, a teacher can show you how he changes his setup for high notes; telling someone on a forum "Use more breath support" or 'tighten your diaphragm' is unlikely to yield a good result.

He's right. You should let it go.

Okay. I guess the mental roadblock was in thinking that Tim could be right on something.  :evil: 

Thanks!

Every now and again I just get hung on something.

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: blast on Mar 25, 2017, 03:59PM
Sometimes it is worth paying someone who knows, for an hour of their time. This is one such time. Find the right person and pay. This is not going to be sorted here. Good luck finding the right person.  :evil: :evil:



Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: bonenick on Mar 25, 2017, 04:11PM
Good call Blast. All the theories, videos and discussions are inferior to an hour with a pro who knows how and what to do.

That's what I tried to say all along - learning skills process should go with the least necessary analysis (by the student) - meaning we don't need to understand every little detail or why we can do what we do (that's teacher's call). Want to learn to play in the high register? Get a hang (a single lesson may not be enough, but it is something) with a teacher that can do it and has a number of students who also can.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Mar 25, 2017, 04:18PM
Yeah, we advised the OP of that and I'm gonna do it as well.

You have to get instruction from with whom your faith lies and that ain't here.   :evil:

It's been an interesting discussion though and it isn't like people were queued up 10 deep waiting to post. I've hit the ignore button plenty of times on plenty of other threads. We're all free to.

Others get hot on a certain topic as well from time-to-time. Human nature. Ain't no thing.

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Pre59 on Mar 25, 2017, 04:42PM
It's times like this that I'm glad that I have more high notes than I know what to do with..  :)


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: pizzaman on Mar 26, 2017, 01:47AM
Notes I play originate from buzzing lips together in corners of the mouth. How high I play is proportional to the amount of muscle tension I have in the corners of my mouth. Aperture generally gets smaller due to higher muscle tension in corners. When I want to specifically increase my range, I practice exercises that work muscles in corners of the mouth.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: svenlarsson on Mar 26, 2017, 02:56AM
It's times like this that I'm glad that I have more high notes than I know what to do with..  :)

Yea  I have a high octave that I really donīt need. The trubble is that sometimes when I do need some high tones they are not there.  :D


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: timothy42b on Mar 26, 2017, 04:16PM
There seem to be three basic ways to get higher:

1 More air 

And finally, play the F and then raise the tongue from the back toward the front, something like "ah" to "ee" or "i".  You may find the note pops up. 

More air, or the right amount?  I think it is less air, but has to be just right.  I think blowing more air can work if you start below the amount you need and ramp up slowly.  If you overshoot you lose it.  I think.  Not a high range expert here. 

Tongue position in the staff makes no difference for me.  An octave above it makes some difference, another octave a good bit more.  I think.  This is subtle stuff in that range.  For me.  YMMV. 


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: harrison.t.reed on Mar 26, 2017, 04:50PM
More air, or the right amount?  I think it is less air, but has to be just right.  Not a high range expert here. 


Why debate it then? I have a great high range. You need a lot of air. It moves through a more angled aperture at a faster rate than the mid range. Because the air is moving fast, you use just as much. That's why true "high range" mouthpieces often have a larger throat. This not only helps keep the high register from going flat, but also lets you use more air.

The only register that uses more air is the pedal range. Especially with the F attachment. That sucks the air out of you.

I'm willing to back up these facts with a video if naysayers want. I'm also willing to bet that those who like using less air sound extremely thin in the upper register trying to "aperture" their way through that range.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Doug Elliott on Mar 26, 2017, 10:20PM
I'm willing to back up these facts with a video if naysayers want.
Please do.
It's always interesting to hear the players on the forum no matter who they are.

(There are plenty of videos of my playing on YouTube)


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Ellrod on Mar 26, 2017, 10:38PM
One exercise that was recommended to me was to play F in 6th ( :tenorclef:  :space5:) and slowly gliss up to Bb in 1st. Then try it with G->C. Work up to C -> F.



Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Pre59 on Mar 27, 2017, 01:34AM
I do that as lip flexibilities, using pos 6-1, the first notes being A to C, C to Eb, Eb to F, F to G. It has more useful musical value as well IMO. Stop short of the Ab in 1st pos.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Pre59 on Mar 27, 2017, 03:51AM

 That's why true "high range" mouthpieces often have a larger throat. This not only helps keep the high register from going flat, but also lets you use more air.


Which m/ps are these specifically? And "true"?


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: timothy42b on Mar 27, 2017, 04:58AM
Why debate it then? I have a great high range. You need a lot of air.

Wait, back up.

You say those who don't use a lot of air in the high range sound thin.

But.......they're playing in the high range, without a lot of air.

(Unlike you I'm not a high range expert.  But I can squeak up around double Bb for quite a while on almost no breath.  So I'm playing up there without air.)

Now you're subtly changing the position.  Do you need a lot of air to play high?  Or do you just need a lot of air to play high with more tone? 

And then, once you got playing up there with more tone, could you get more efficient, and play up there with less air? 

Saturday morning in trombone choir rehearsal I was playing third, the piece had an 8 va section where the line went from the alt-F down to the high Bb.  I hit all the notes; they sounded like crap I'm sure, and in performance I'd take them down, but I did play them, and without a huge breath. 


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: BillO on Mar 27, 2017, 07:18AM
I do that as lip flexibilities, using pos 6-1, the first notes being A to C, C to Eb, Eb to F. It has more useful musical value as well IMO. Stop short of the Ab in 1st pos.
I'm not sure what you mean here.  Are you glissing from 6 to 1?


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: sabutin on Mar 27, 2017, 07:47AM
Advice on hitting high notes?

Sure.

1-Learn to play the notes below them really well...with a good sound and no big shifts.

2-Then gradually connect that range with the ranges above it.

3-Then learn how to play higher that the desired "high notes" and connect down from there.

You did exactly the same thing as a beginner. Remember? When a 4th partial Bb or a fifth partial D was a "high note?"

Then they became easier and 7th partial G was a "high note."

Etcetera.

Same process, right on up.

Good support, good air and good practice.

Daily!

S.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: harrison.t.reed on Mar 27, 2017, 08:09AM
Please do.
It's always interesting to hear the players on the forum no matter who they are.

(There are plenty of videos of my playing on YouTube)

Noooo. An awesome player like YOU wasn't who was supposed to ask for a vid! It was supposed to be someone who can't play! But you got it. I'll get one out by mid week, with trepidation. ..  :D


(Unlike you I'm not a high range expert.  But I can squeak up around double Bb for quite a while on almost no breath.  So I'm playing up there without air.)

Now you're subtly changing the position.  Do you need a lot of air to play high?  Or do you just need a lot of air to play high with more tone? 

And then, once you got playing up there with more tone, could you get more efficient, and play up there with less air? 

Saturday morning in trombone choir rehearsal I was playing third, the piece had an 8 va section where the line went from the alt-F down to the high Bb.  I hit all the notes; they sounded like crap I'm sure, and in performance I'd take them down, but I did play them, and without a huge breath. 

 :confused:

Squeaking out notes and sounding like crap is different from what I thought we were talking about. Those are your words -- not mine and you shouldn't be putting yourself down. But if you say that, how can you be offering advice about using less air for the high range?

Which m/ps are these specifically? And "true"?

By true, I mean a mouthpiece designed to do something like play high and sustained at the expense of other factors (like a full low register) rather than do everything well at once.

Greg Black offers trumpet mouthpieces with very shallow cups and open backbores and throats meant for lead playing. Maynard played on a #15 throat, larger than some trombone mp throats ... all he did was play high notes and he was known for a huge tone in the altissimo register.

Griego has the alessi series, which in the 1 series has a .283" throat as a rule, except for the high range piece, the 1A, which is .295" in the throat.

For his artist series small bore pieces meant for the high range, they mostly have a .262" throat which is way larger than standard small bore pieces meant for all around playing (from my understanding, these are usually around .230")

The Lindberg pieces universally have stupidly large throats. He played high all the time.

I don't think equipment is the answer at all, but it is telling that players like Maynard, Lindberg, Bousfield, Alessi and many more decided to increase the size of the chokepoint in their high range pieces to larger than what is standard. It keeps it from going flat, yes, but it also lets a ton of air through.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Pre59 on Mar 27, 2017, 09:01AM
I'm not sure what you mean here.  Are you glissing from 6 to 1?

Not glissing, but playing as normal flexibilities, i.e. quarter notes right through to triplets, and be sure to adjust for tuning.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: harrison.t.reed on Mar 31, 2017, 12:16PM
I haven't forgotten about the video. I have been not exactly doing the musical part of job as planned at work lately, and have a little field trip that is happening (or may have already happened ... or may not be happening. ..) which is occupying my professional time, so it may be a small bit of time before I can create my video showing how air, resistance, and different registers all interplay. It won't be further out than a month when I post it here, however.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Doug Elliott on Mar 31, 2017, 01:22PM
I was not going to get into this discussion, but I can't leave some of this unanswered.

Greg Black offers trumpet mouthpieces with very shallow cups and open backbores and throats meant for lead playing.
And MANY other makers (including myself) have mouthpieces without huge throats, that also work well for high playing.

Quote
Maynard played on a #15 throat, larger than some trombone mp throats ... all he did was play high notes and he was known for a huge tone in the altissimo register.
That's quite an exaggeration.  A #15 is .180" and I've never seen a trombone mouthpiece with a throat anywhere near that.  And Maynard played a lot more than high notes, he had a huge sound all over the horn.

Quote
Griego has the alessi series, which in the 1 series has a .283" throat as a rule, except for the high range piece, the 1A, which is .295" in the throat.

Quote
For his artist series small bore pieces meant for the high range, they mostly have a .262" throat which is way larger than standard small bore pieces meant for all around playing (from my understanding, these are usually around .230")

Quote
The Lindberg pieces universally have stupidly large throats. He played high all the time.
ALSO ignoring the many players who don't play on those kinds of designs.  Sure Alessi and Lindberg have good high ranges but lots of other players do too, without using anything like those pieces.

Quote
I don't think equipment is the answer at all, but it is telling that players like Maynard, Lindberg, Bousfield, Alessi and many more decided to increase the size of the chokepoint in their high range pieces to larger than what is standard. It keeps it from going flat, yes, but it also lets a ton of air through.
Again, those few players and their mouthpieces are hardly representative of the dozens or hundreds of great jazz, studio, and classical players who really do have great range and sound all over the horn.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: harrison.t.reed on Mar 31, 2017, 02:41PM
Of course, Doug you know a thousand times more about designing a mouthpiece than 99.999% of all humans -- I will lose any discussion on mouthpiece design with you. I did try to put a statement like "some true high register mouthpieces", so it was clear I wasn't trying to state a rule.

The discussion of mouthpiece design gets away from the real point I was trying to make, which was that all the talk on this particular thread about the lack of a need for air support in the higher register is absolutely ludicrous. I tried using some well known legit players, and Maynard (who really did use a huge throat on his piece) and their ideas about their own mouthpieces to show that, if anything, more air = mo' better in the upper register.

I am in no way, whatsoever, trying to make it seem like I know a thing about making a mouthpiece. The logic just seemed pretty clear. Bigger hole for bigger air.   :/


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: bonenick on Mar 31, 2017, 02:52PM
I believe that what we do with our lips, tongue and throat is much more audible, than anything achieved by those specialist designs.

An example: Arturo Sandoval, who uses a standard 3C for most of his playing. And his sound is fat up there (and not only) as any other, Ferguson included.

For stratosphere range a "unfurl"ing set up seem to be rather popular among hign note specialist (at least on trumpet). FWIW I haven't figured it out how to do it sucessfuly.

I don't know if all of the above applies to trombone set ups, but I would rather think that it does. Maybe with slightly more space between jaws. Let me know if I am wrong in my assumptions.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Doug Elliott on Mar 31, 2017, 03:00PM
"More air" and "more air pressure" are two very different things.

It takes LESS air to play high range, but more "pressure".  Or "support.". But that doesn't mean blowing lots of air or needing a large mouthpiece throat.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: baileyman on Apr 01, 2017, 06:04AM
More air, or the right amount?  I think it is less air, but has to be just right.  I think blowing more air can work if you start below the amount you need and ramp up slowly.  If you overshoot you lose it.  I think.  Not a high range expert here. 

Tongue position in the staff makes no difference for me.  An octave above it makes some difference, another octave a good bit more.  I think.  This is subtle stuff in that range.  For me.  YMMV. 


I was talking about a *change* in air toward "more" where it's really hard to specify what "more" means.  Like all economists laid end to end can't reach a conclusion, all brass players say something different when they say "air".  "Air pressure", "air flow", "air resistance", "air impedance (the resistance you feel in the frequency feedback, and that's the real thing people call resistance, Bruce?)"?  Maybe some of us have lab meters in our mouths so we can speak clearly about this stuff. 

If you play an easy F in the staff, then suddenly add some kind of "air" (see above), you may find you can get to Bb that way and can control it.  That is all. 

Similarly if you add smaller aperture (is this what you guys mean when you say "focus"?).

Similarly if you suddenly add arched forward tongue movement. 

That is all. 

If anyone knows of other mechanisms that seem to lead to partial change, let me know.  Practicing these things separately seems to be helpful, though I'm sure what actually happens is always a combination plus whatever else may have an effect, and in a way that cannot be understood but can be felt and remembered and repeated and improved. 



Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Doug Elliott on Apr 01, 2017, 07:00AM
Exactly, it's the combination of the right things in the right proportions.  Not enough of something means other things have to compensate and you lose efficiency..


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Apr 08, 2017, 08:11AM
FWIW:

Clearly, it is difficult to have a truly meaningful and life-changing discussion on this topic when people have varying definitions or concepts of "air", "support", "focus", "intensity", etc. As far as I am concerned, if I really need instruction on something, I seek a direct one-on-one session with my instructor - whom I have good reason trust - on any topic.

For me, this gentleman sets a gold standard on tone in the high range and - for that matter - every range on a tenor trombone:

Al Grey: The More I See You (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uy6vU3eZb2g)

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: M.R.Tenor on Apr 16, 2017, 05:14PM
What I know?



The bottom lip rolls in, but not too much

The arch of the tongue comes forward/higher, but not too much

You need to have enough air, but not too much

The mouthpiece and lips as one cohesive unit moves up/down/left/right(depending on who you are) relative to the teeth, but not too much.


       AND


Everything else has to stay put, as smaller changes make more of a difference; the basketball analogy earlier in the thread



Practically, I like to play a little melody using the first three notes of a scale. Breath attack on the initial note and then just glisses or partial breaks between notes. Start somewhere comfortable, and move that melody up in half steps, breathing in through the nose without moving the embouchure between each modulation.

Play them like moving long tones, and make sure to get the most resonant, overtone rich sound on each note. A lot of the times with exercises we forget that the whole point of playing the trombone is to make music, so a simple melody helps the brain learn the notes in context. Also keeps it from getting too boring.

When I miss a note, I reset and try again. Miss it twice, I put the horn down for ten second break, and then reset and play a scale down and back up from that note, starting and ending with a quarter note, all other notes eighths.

It's okay to miss the top note on the initial attack, but it's good to try to hold it full length at the end. Breath through the nose for a bar, not moving anything, and then do it again a half step down at a time until you find yourself working on low range.

Then have a coffee, listen to some playing, organize your practice folder, check your email... and move on.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: bonenick on Apr 17, 2017, 04:33AM
It may be useful to remember that it function as a system. We often tweak more than one aspect of our playing to get better results....


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Dixieland57 on Jul 03, 2017, 05:00AM
LOT of air support and not too much pressure on your lips.

And as any other note hear it in your head before you play it.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: harrison.t.reed on Jul 03, 2017, 02:58PM
[Removed. The limited time offer ended]

Offer back online! Switched publishers. Limited time only!

http://youtube.com/v/AkauY6LRx2E


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Jul 06, 2017, 03:29PM
Lol! But what I like about your clip is that you actually sound terrific! No making freaky noises like Skeletor hissing through the trombone for you!

OBTW; I get it. Great concept!

Do you accept Bitcoin?

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: ddickerson on Jul 06, 2017, 04:08PM
Lol! But what I like about your clip is that you actually sound terrific! No making freaky noises like Skeletor hissing through the trombone for you!

OBTW; I get it. Great concept!

Do you accept Bitcoin?

...Geezer

Harrison, great clip!

Geezer, you had a great clip on here too! I don't remember which thread it was on, but I loved it!


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Pre59 on Jul 07, 2017, 07:41AM
[Removed. The limited time offer ended]

Offer back online! Switched publishers. Limited time only!

http://youtube.com/v/AkauY6LRx2E

Er.. This is a bit esoteric. Care to elucidate?


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: harrison.t.reed on Jul 07, 2017, 01:08PM
Er.. This is a bit esoteric. Care to elucidate?

well, yes. But it costs $19.99!


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Pre59 on Jul 07, 2017, 02:52PM
well, yes. But it costs $19.99!

What does?..


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: harrison.t.reed on Jul 07, 2017, 03:31PM
The secrets! The elucidation!


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Jul 08, 2017, 06:04AM
Harrison, great clip!

Geezer, you had a great clip on here too! I don't remember which thread it was on, but I loved it!


Thanks, man. I can tell you it wasn't on high range development, though. lol I'm lucky if I can hit a decent double-high Eb! How pathetic is that!

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Jul 09, 2017, 05:52AM
Something that gets tossed out occasionally is the need to train for high notes at a lower dynamic. I believe this in turn, reduces the volume of air and allows the chops to vibrate a little more easily. I know it does for me.

I was introduced to a term recently that is very descriptive and I believe it expresses a common fault among students who are striving for a higher range. Smash-mouth. I love that term and I think it very vividly describes what a player should NOT do when striving to increase range. IOW's, back off; mpc pressure and air volume.

...Geezer 


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: harrison.t.reed on Jul 09, 2017, 06:09AM
Or do the opposite of that. President Obama-- er, I mean, Joseph Alessi talks about air and the upper register. Caveat, his video is edited right before the excerpt, so he might not actually know what he's talking about:

http://youtube.com/v/Mm8lPg8O0vw


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Jul 09, 2017, 06:24AM
Lol. Squeaking wasn't actually what I was referring to.

UH-OH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He used a term! COMPRESSION! UH-OH! Some Forumites are going to be extremely unhappy about that! I know they were when I used that term about a year ago! UH-OH! AND he pointed to his diaphragm! Double-gasp!  :-0   :-0

I will forgo the usual $19.99 payment request. lol I advocate to myself to find the higher notes rather softly and very very slowly increase their dynamic. My goal is to have screamer high notes, but I can't jump the gun or I am afraid I will jump the shark! Not asking for advice here guys (Timothy42B)! That is between my instructor and me. Just participating in a Sunday morning discussion of what I believe in as a solid approach. What works for you?

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: timothy42b on Jul 09, 2017, 11:34AM
I sense a challenge, veiled in the earlier posts and more explicit here. 


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Pre59 on Jul 09, 2017, 11:48AM
I sense a challenge, veiled in the earlier posts and more explicit here. 

Wot, Geezerhorn, veiled?  :)


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Piano man on Jul 09, 2017, 11:58AM
Lol. Squeaking wasn't actually what I was referring to.

UH-OH!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He used a term! COMPRESSION! UH-OH! Some Forumites are going to be extremely unhappy about that! I know they were when I used that term about a year ago! UH-OH! AND he pointed to his diaphragm! Double-gasp!  :-0   :-0

I don't think you quite got it. "Squeaking" high notes was what he was trying to avoid, not what he was teaching. And he placed his hand across his abdomen, not his diaphragm. I think confusing the two leads to a lot of misunderstanding among brass students.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Jul 09, 2017, 01:09PM
I don't think you quite got it. "Squeaking" high notes was what he was trying to avoid, not what he was teaching. And he placed his hand across his abdomen, not his diaphragm. I think confusing the two leads to a lot of misunderstanding among brass students.

Oh! I thought it was Harrison who was advocating "do the opposite of that" - referring to what Joe was going to talk about in the upcoming video he posted. No, Joe wasn't talking about finding new notes by squeaking. He was talking about actually playing notes.

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Piano man on Jul 09, 2017, 01:17PM
Oh! I thought it was Harrison who was advocating "do the opposite of that" - referring to what Joe was going to talk about in the upcoming video he posted.

I think he was saying that Alessi's approach was the opposite of yours. I'm sure there's more than one way to do it.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Jul 09, 2017, 01:32PM
I think he was saying that Alessi's approach was the opposite of yours. I'm sure there's more than one way to do it.

That darn Harrison. lol

Actually, it didn't appear that Joe was describing how to find high notes. It sounded as though he was describing how to play them with you-know-what to the walls. That is presumably after they had been found.  :D

I sense a challenge, veiled in the earlier posts and more explicit here. 

Waiting...  ;)

-------------------------------------------------

OBTW, guys - go give Tom a critique on his latest recording. I think he's feeling a little unloved! (http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,101026.0.html)

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: harrison.t.reed on Jul 09, 2017, 03:09PM
Like Doug said, you have to squeak it out at first to help figure out to play with a "chest voice".


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Jul 09, 2017, 03:21PM
Like Doug said, you have to squeak it out at first to help figure out to play with a "chest voice".

Isn't that a common pedagogical practice?

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: timothy42b on Jul 09, 2017, 04:01PM

Waiting...  ;)

...Geezer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zdgykIvo0Y

That didn't turn out as good as I'd planned.  If possible I'll do another one when I'm fresh and delete that one.

First, geezer and I have very different approaches to recordings.  He polishes them into works of art, while I use them as scientific documentation of a work in progress, warts and all. 

But anyway.  How does harrison nail that high note cold?  He has it firmly in his ear first

The point of the range rip I was trying to demonstrate, and fell so short on, is to fix the high note in your ear.  It's not primarily a strength exercise.  Usually I can get at least the G doing that. 

Finally, why am I using a pBone?  My Bach is in the repair shop, see the other thread.  Trust me, the mini pBone is not easier to play. 


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Jul 09, 2017, 04:04PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-zdgykIvo0Y

That didn't turn out as good as I'd planned.  If possible I'll do another one when I'm fresh and delete that one.

First, geezer and I have very different approaches to recordings.  He polishes them into works of art, while I use them as scientific documentation of a work in progress, warts and all. 

But anyway.  How does harrison nail that high note cold?  He has it firmly in his ear first

The point of the range rip I was trying to demonstrate, and fell so short on, is to fix the high note in your ear.  It's not primarily a strength exercise.  Usually I can get at least the G doing that. 

Finally, why am I using a pBone?  My Bach is in the repair shop, see the other thread.  Trust me, the mini pBone is not easier to play. 

I think this is by far your best vid yet!

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: harrison.t.reed on Jul 09, 2017, 04:26PM
Isn't that a common pedagogical practice?

...Geezer

All seriousness aside (See my video again. Very serious business...($19.99)), I actually wouldn't advocate squeaking much beyond hearing that it's possible to play a certain note. Sure everyone is going to do it, even if it's deep in the privacy of their home whether they are told to or not. But squeaking it out with a strained embouchure and lack of air moving through your chops will hurt you in the long run.

One trick I used for a young girl I taught years ago, who just wanted a solid "high Bb", was to hand her my jinbao alto and let her borrow it. During that lesson, she was easily able to play the Bb on the alto. The difference is the air needed to achieve the right resistance to get the note out. She wasn't  pinching or squeaking it out on the alto. It was easy for her to figure out how to get that same feeling on her tenor during the same lesson.

I like the head voice vs chest voice comparison that Ian Bousfield uses in his video on the upper register.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Jul 09, 2017, 04:59PM
All seriousness aside (See my video again. Very serious business...($19.99)), I actually wouldn't advocate squeaking much beyond hearing that it's possible to play a certain note. Sure everyone is going to do it, even if it's deep in the privacy of their home whether they are told to or not. But squeaking it out with a strained embouchure and lack of air moving through your chops will hurt you in the long run.

One trick I used for a young girl I taught years ago, who just wanted a solid "high Bb", was to hand her my jinbao alto and let her borrow it. During that lesson, she was easily able to play the Bb on the alto. The difference is the air needed to achieve the right resistance to get the note out. She wasn't  pinching or squeaking it out on the alto. It was easy for her to figure out how to get that same feeling on her tenor during the same lesson.

I like the head voice vs chest voice comparison that Ian Bousfield uses in his video on the upper register.

Agreed. However, there is a difference between squeaking and playing softly with finesse.

I'll often train on my smallest bore horn to get the feel of the notes and then try to transfer them over to a larger horn and finally my largest horn. I don't think there is anything wrong with that approach. Conversely, I like to train the lowest notes on my largest horn and transfer them to my smaller horns.

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: timothy42b on Jul 09, 2017, 06:09PM
All seriousness aside (See my video again. Very serious business...($19.99)), I actually wouldn't advocate squeaking much beyond hearing that it's possible to play a certain note.

There are high range tricks that aren't real ways of playing, and I wouldn't want to squeak using them. 

But I think there needn't be a sharp cutoff to your range.  It can be a continuum, from a note you can hammer, to a note you can play soft and controlled, to notes you get softer and softer until they turn into a squeak.  Then a squeal, then a dog whistle.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Pre59 on Jul 10, 2017, 03:44AM
Is the Chas Collin Flexibilities book not used anymore? It was considered essential back in the '70's, and even though I don't own a copy anymore, exercises or ones very similar are still part of my main practice routine.

It's still a valid way to increase the upper register IMO, and the speed and volume at which they're practiced affects strength and flexibility.

I had a usable high F on a Reynolds bass trombone with a VB 1.5G back then..




Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Jul 10, 2017, 04:14AM
Is the Chas Collin Flexibilities book not used anymore? It was considered essential back in the '70's, and even though I don't own a copy anymore, exercises or ones very similar are still part of my main practice routine.

It's still a valid way to increase the upper register IMO, and the speed and volume at which they're practiced affects strength and flexibility.

I had a usable high F on a Reynolds bass trombone with a VB 1.5G back then..


Never heard of it.

I like TD's GSMOY for some musical high-range training. I have it written out progressively higher & higher. It's simple to use BiaB to change the key up a 1/2 step when I want to. Using an accompaniment is nice b/c it pushes me to stay on the beat and not be a slacker. But when I can't hit the high notes any more, I finish the song down an octave. Rest. Rinse. Repeat.

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Pre59 on Jul 10, 2017, 07:29AM
Never heard of it.

I like TD's GSMOY for some musical high-range training. I have it written out progressively higher & higher. It's simple to use BiaB to change the key up a 1/2 step when I want to. Using an accompaniment is nice b/c it pushes me to stay on the beat and not be a slacker. But when I can't hit the high notes any more, I finish the song down an octave. Rest. Rinse. Repeat.

...Geezer

It's the equivalent to weight training. There's a lot of variables, like speed, note values, distance between tones and volume, so it's not like a slow slog of long climbing notes. I've found a way to make them more musically interesting and relevant to my needs over the years.

Geezer, so you do no lip flex's or trills for upper range?


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Jul 10, 2017, 07:47AM
It's the equivalent to weight training. There's a lot of variables, like speed, note values, distance between tones and volume, so it's not like a slow slog of long climbing notes. I've found a way to make them more musically interesting and relevant to my needs over the years.

Geezer, so you do no lip flex's or trills for upper range?

I do a series of cross-grain scale slurs, using a lot of alternate positions to make as many cross-grain slurs as possible.

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: harrison.t.reed on Jul 10, 2017, 08:29AM
Tim, just watched your vid. Hilarious. I gotta try that duct tape on the brace!


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Jul 10, 2017, 08:34AM
Tim, just watched your vid. Hilarious. I gotta try that duct tape on the brace!

I think his work here is done!

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: ddickerson on Jul 10, 2017, 08:48AM
I think his work here is done!

...Geezer

What key are you up to in playing IGSOY? It seems I've seen a video of Doug playing it in F, and then some.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Jul 10, 2017, 08:57AM
What key are you up to in playing IGSOY? It seems I've seen a video of Doug playing it in F, and then some.

Lol. I'm still stuck on the key of D. It's an endurance thing for me. I start out terrific, but can't quite make it all the way through the whole tune yet. Odd though, I can sometimes do a nice job on Jobim's "Wave" in Eb, hiking the bridge up one octave to make high Eb. But that part is after a substantial rest while the backup group riffs. I know what to do, it's the doing it part that I'm still working on. lol It's coming. I run through those things in the morning and then play my Conn 88H as low as possible in the evening. I push in both directions.

Sometimes a high session off is in order. I did a recording this morning instead of working on high range.

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: ddickerson on Jul 10, 2017, 09:03AM
Lol. I'm still stuck on the key of D. It's an endurance thing for me. I start out terrific, but can't quite make it all the way through the whole tune yet. Odd though, I can sometimes do a nice job on Jobim's "Wave" in Eb, hiking the bridge up one octave to make high Eb. But that part is after a substantial rest while the backup group riffs. I know what to do, it's the doing it part that I'm still working on. lol It's coming. I run through those things in the morning and then play my Conn 88H as low as possible in the evening. I push in both directions.

Sometimes a high session off is in order. I did a recording this morning instead of working on high range.

...Geezer

D is good. Tommy Dorsey's key. Maybe sometime you can sub for him?



Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Jul 10, 2017, 09:09AM
D is good. Tommy Dorsey's key. Maybe sometime you can sub for him?


Lol. If he was still alive and I did stand in for him during an illness, I would probably get such rave reviews that he would get better real quick! (In my dreams).

You're a player. Any pet tricks and/or concepts you can share with us on pushing your range up?

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: ddickerson on Jul 10, 2017, 01:08PM

Ok - I will weigh in on this what Harrison started. You will immediately see that my low range is in need of repair. LOL!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXuKhdgfk8g



Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: timothy42b on Jul 10, 2017, 01:12PM
Dude!  the ceiling fan!  you're supposed to do your vibrato with the slide!



Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: BGuttman on Jul 10, 2017, 01:35PM
Is the Chas Collin Flexibilities book not used anymore? It was considered essential back in the '70's, and even though I don't own a copy anymore, exercises or ones very similar are still part of my main practice routine.

It's still a valid way to increase the upper register IMO, and the speed and volume at which they're practiced affects strength and flexibility.

I had a usable high F on a Reynolds bass trombone with a VB 1.5G back then..


I bought it when it was relatively new (and I was in High School).  Brought it to a lesson and my teacher (a trumpet player in the NBC Symphony) told me to shred it because it was garbage.  Apparently Chalie Colin had a reputation back then.  But I didn't shred it -- I still have it.

I got my upper register with variants on the Remington Security in the Upper Register exercise.


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Jul 10, 2017, 01:45PM
Ok - I will weigh in on this what Harrison started. You will immediately see that my low range is in need of repair. LOL!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXuKhdgfk8g


Lol! Love it! I think timothy42b started something; the equivalent of an Internet meme - in music.

I wish I could put my version of that musical meme up, but I'm not even in the same galaxy as you guys on high range. I could post a recording here doing what I do, but it wouldn't have a thing to do with the topic at hand, so I won't.

Just so others can be "in" on this - the concept is to alternate playing high with playing low. I don't know the magic behind it. Maybe it has something to do with keeping the chops from getting all in a bunch or perhaps from becoming muscle-bound from too much strenuous work upstairs. That's why I think flexibility exercises are also very important. I've never seen a muscle-bound yoga instructor. Uh-oh. Did I just toss up a softball? lol

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: BillO on Jul 10, 2017, 02:52PM
Ok - I will weigh in on this what Harrison started. You will immediately see that my low range is in need of repair. LOL!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXuKhdgfk8g


You sound like a trumpet!


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: harrison.t.reed on Jul 10, 2017, 03:02PM
Dang it Geezer, my video trolled on this thread first! Givin all the credit to Tim...


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Jul 10, 2017, 03:15PM
That's the way it goes around here, man. I didn't write the rules.

Now you have to one-up him on a high-range builder demo and take the cheese.

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: ddickerson on Jul 10, 2017, 03:18PM
That's the way it goes around here, man. I didn't write the rules.

Now you have to one-up him on a high-range builder demo and take the cheese.

...Geezer

Geezer, I don't think that you saw Harrison's video. That's what started this. BTW, Harrison, great job and great video. I can tell that you're probably a great teacher too!



Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Jul 10, 2017, 03:24PM
Geezer, I don't think that you saw Harrison's video. That's what started this. BTW, Harrison, great job and great video. I can tell that you're probably a great teacher too!


On THIS thread, yes. But Tim was THE first to do a high-range vid. Maybe he can point to where it had it's world debut.

I agree. Nice job! That's really what we need around here; demos of stuff.

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: ddickerson on Jul 10, 2017, 03:32PM
On THIS thread, yes. But Tim was THE first to do a high-range vid. Maybe he can point to where it had it's world debut.

I agree. Nice job! That's really what we need around here; demos of stuff.

...Geezer

Oh I see what you mean. I was just thinking about this thread. I don't know if we've helped the OP with all this.  :)


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Jul 29, 2017, 07:16AM
What key are you up to in playing IGSOY? 

I passed a goal. I played through it cleanly in the Key of D. I normally use my King 2B with a Bach 12C mouthpiece, but I passed my goal with a Bach 7C mouthpiece, so that is real progress for me. I have modulated GSOY up to the key of Eb, making high D the top note. I'll stick with the Bach 7C mpc and the King 2B for this next goal.

Lol. Just in case you are thinking that I should use a larger mpc to play higher, that is not the case with me; although it may be for someone else. All a large mpc does for me as far as high range is concerned is to make stamina up there that much more difficult.

GSOY is a great song, but I use it as an etude; modulating it up one half step at a time for range-building. Playing through a chorus of GSOY non-stop is a LOT tougher for me than occasionally picking off a high C# or a high D somewhere in an otherwise not all that high-pitched ballad.

I hope this inspires others to use a similar approach at range-building. There are certainly many approaches and it's probably best to attack it from all angles. This is one angle I attack it from. Harrison has some outstanding angles as well.

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: timothy42b on Jul 29, 2017, 07:47AM


I hope this inspires others to use a similar approach at range-building. There are certainly many approaches and it's probably best to attack it from all angles. This is one angle I attack it from. Harrison has some outstanding angles as well.

...Geezer

Good job on IGSOY!  That's progress.

On a similar note, somebody posted Bolero written out in multiple keys, starting on F and raising half steps until a start of D.  I have it in hard copy, maybe I can find the electrons again. 


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Jul 29, 2017, 07:55AM
Good job on IGSOY!  That's progress.

On a similar note, somebody posted Bolero written out in multiple keys, starting on F and raising half steps until a start of D.  I have it in hard copy, maybe I can find the electrons again. 

Thanks Tim!

I am already making good progress on GSOY in the key of Eb. It's a feel kinda thing. The more muscular I try to make it, the worse it is. So I work terribly hard every day at re-training myself not to work so hard.  :amazed:

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: timothy42b on Jul 29, 2017, 08:17AM
Found this, Bolero in 12 keys:

https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/f9c99c_c8dfa0b0636e4cc6b8c046b57e96c6f3.pdf

It's not the one I'm thinking of but it looks useful. 


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Jul 29, 2017, 08:21AM
Nice! Thanks for the share.

A zillion of us should keep that on our hard drive and/or print it out!

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: BillO on Jul 29, 2017, 08:59AM
Found this, Bolero in 12 keys:

https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/f9c99c_c8dfa0b0636e4cc6b8c046b57e96c6f3.pdf

It's not the one I'm thinking of but it looks useful. 
:good:


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: ddickerson on Jul 29, 2017, 01:17PM
I passed a goal. I played through it cleanly in the Key of D. I normally use my King 2B with a Bach 12C mouthpiece, but I passed my goal with a Bach 7C mouthpiece, so that is real progress for me. I have modulated GSOY up to the key of Eb, making high D the top note. I'll stick with the Bach 7C mpc and the King 2B for this next goal.

Lol. Just in case you are thinking that I should use a larger mpc to play higher, that is not the case with me; although it may be for someone else. All a large mpc does for me as far as high range is concerned is to make stamina up there that much more difficult.

GSOY is a great song, but I use it as an etude; modulating it up one half step at a time for range-building. Playing through a chorus of GSOY non-stop is a LOT tougher for me than occasionally picking off a high C# or a high D somewhere in an otherwise not all that high-pitched ballad.

I hope this inspires others to use a similar approach at range-building. There are certainly many approaches and it's probably best to attack it from all angles. This is one angle I attack it from. Harrison has some outstanding angles as well.

...Geezer

Great! That was the key that TD recorded it in. I've heard stories that at the beginning of the show, he would play it in D, but at the close of the show, he played it in Bb. I wasn't around back then so can't say from first hand experience. :)



Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Nov 11, 2017, 05:43AM
Great! That was the key that TD recorded it in. I've heard stories that at the beginning of the show, he would play it in D, but at the close of the show, he played it in Bb. I wasn't around back then so can't say from first hand experience. :)


I just played all the way through IGSOY this morning in the key of Eb. Progress.

After three days of hard high range training, I think it's time to rest that aspect and concentrate on the technique of making as nice a sound as possible much lower on the horn.

Flush with a little new-found success on hitting some modestly high notes, what advice can I give? Strength is important, but it all goes out the window without correct technique. Bruce Lee might say, "It's the art of playing high without playing high". And for that, one-on-one instruction is needed. For most of us, there just aren't any short-cuts.

...Geezer


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: ddickerson on Nov 11, 2017, 07:38AM
I just played all the way through IGSOY this morning in the key of Eb. Progress.

After three days of hard high range training, I think it's time to rest that aspect and concentrate on the technique of making as nice a sound as possible much lower on the horn.

Flush with a little new-found success on hitting some modestly high notes, what advice can I give? Strength is important, but it all goes out the window without correct technique. Bruce Lee might say, "It's the art of playing high without playing high". And for that, one-on-one instruction is needed. For most of us, there just aren't any short-cuts.

...Geezer

Great Job! I think my biggest challenge sometimes is my tongue(articulations) get in the way in the upper register. LOL!


Title: Re: Advice on Hitting High Notes?
Post by: Geezerhorn on Nov 11, 2017, 08:00AM
Great Job! I think my biggest challenge sometimes is my tongue(articulations) get in the way in the upper register. LOL!

Ha! That's what slurring is for!  :cool:

I played through it in Eb after playing through it well in D. I'll continue in Eb a few months before trying it in E. So, hopefully this post isn't dead yet and hopefully for us it never will be!  :D

...Geezer