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1061514 Posts in 70635 Topics- by 18478 Members - Latest Member: Army TBone Veteran
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4841  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Mouthpieces / 4g vs 4AL.. on: Jan 11, 2004, 01:28PM
A thought on the 3G,4G, 4AL relationship. It seems that Bach has made two very different 3G's over the years- a small and big version. I don't know how or why, but I have seen both types, and recently I was asked to remodel a 3G rim in the style of a 4AL. This 3G was indeed smaller across the rim than the 4AL, but had a deeper cup.
Sorry, Meatball, I forgot that fact.
If you take a Mt. Vernon 4G and an early Wick 4AL, they are physically very close, though very different to play.
I think the lack of mass on the standard Wick may give the impression of a very open mouthpiece.
Chris Stearn.
4842  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Mouthpieces / 4g vs 4AL.. on: Jan 10, 2004, 02:35PM
The 4AL was not designed for the euphonium. It was originally the model A, and was designed by Denis Wick for his own use. He played a stock model- just pulled a new one from stock when the plate wore on his old one. It is not as big as the Bach 3G. It was originally very close in spec. to the 4G.He is still very hands on with the mouthpiece business.
Chris Stearn.
4843  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Mouthpieces / Bass Trombone Players Doubling on Tenor on: Nov 22, 2003, 09:01AM
Wow, old quotes come back to haunt you.
What I said was based on the observation of many players over the years. Most that seemed to swap between small tenor, large tenor and bass with ease, used very different mouthpieces in each- Bach 11c, 5G and 1 1/4G for instance. Those that tried to narrow the gap, seemed to have more problems, but this may well be as much to do with mouthpiece/ instrument mismatch than actual face problems.
I have spent most of this year playing bass and contrabass, using two mouthpieces that are quite close- the difference between a Schilke 59 & 60 at the rim, and have had no problems at all, so we live and learn. No hard and fast rules then, but remember, the mouthpiece has to be right for the trombone in terms of size, if not, expect a rough ride.
Chris Stearn.
4844  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Mouthpieces / Bass Trombone Players Doubling on Tenor on: Aug 19, 2003, 01:10PM
Ray Premru did not, and Bob Hughes does not use a Bach 2G to double on tenor- just to play bass trombone. I blew Bob's wide rim 2G last week, and it is great- feels bigger than a 2G ,and what a sound !
I know a couple of players here in the UK that have used the 2G on tenor at times- Philip Wheldon in the BBC Scottish Symphony, and Blyth Lindsay in the Liverpool Philharmonic, but they are very strong players.
I heard that when Terry Nagle became first trombone in the Halle, under Barbirolli, he used a Conn 72H and 2G !!
Where's the rule book ?
Chris Stearn.
4845  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Mouthpieces / Windhager mouthpieces on: Sep 12, 2003, 11:23AM
Does he have a web site or e mail contact ?
The mouthpieces sound interesting.
Chris Stearn.
4846  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Mouthpieces / New Rath Mouthpieces on: Oct 19, 2003, 11:54AM
Well M&C, not right with the guesses. All the pieces in the picture are prototype symphony tenor. I've played them and was impressed. A full range is on the way. Bound to please some, perhaps not others, just like any mouthpiece.
Keep you posted.
Chris Stearn.
4847  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Mouthpieces / looking for 1 1/2G size with great low range on: Sep 26, 2003, 01:54PM
Jeff, the rim on the Conn-Roberts is quite flat and slopes in towards the cup. There are still some of the copies of George's mouthpieces around- they were made in the seventies/eighties by a shop in LA. Do a search on George Roberts and you will find that I posted details of that shop- they still have some stock.
Remember, you have it much easier with modern valves- many of us grew up on stuffy rotors, and wondered how George did it.
Practice, that's how.
With a lot of talent thrown in, in George's case.
If you can't get a Shires with Thayers to work down there with your 1 1/2G I don't expect anything else will do the trick.
Chris Stearn.
4848  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Mouthpieces / looking for 1 1/2G size with great low range on: Sep 26, 2003, 11:13AM
The Parke is good but will not help you. Nor will a more open throated Bach. The Conn George Roberts model works if you can cope with the rim, BUT ,basically you need to practice.You will either have to work at the lower range more, with a smaller mouthpiece, or work at the upper range on a bigger mouthpiece, but work you must. You have purchased a huge amount of equiptment in the last couple of years- you must realise that it does not play itself, no matter how much you pay. There are great players on all sorts of mouthpiece. You just have to work at it.
Chris Stearn.
4849  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / looking for smaller bass bone on: Jan 19, 2004, 10:56PM
You're right Ed, G/D Boosey bones work like charms......
voodoo charms !!!            
Chris Stearn.
4850  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / looking for smaller bass bone on: Jan 11, 2004, 01:16PM
The old Conn 70H (post Fuchs) and the Conn 71H, 72H and 73H all offer a more compact sound than the modern crop of hooters, when played by the same person. The Reynolds contempora also fits that frame. Only consider Elkhart Conns in the above models, unless you can get a pro player to try out the horn. Not all Elkharts were good, but you can always sell an Elkhart on.
The question was about smaller basses..that's whats they are.
Good trombones- I still have a 1934 Conn 70H in the collection, and do use it where I think it suitable, as with the 1927 Conn 14H bass- an even smaller instrument.
Chris Stearn.
4851  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / reynold contempora bass trombone on: Jan 04, 2004, 11:43AM
JP, what you are talking about is a Holton 169 model- that's the only one with a second valve that slots into the F valve and has a very long linkage- good horns.
The engraving on my contempora was the same as the cornet link.
Chris Stearn.
4852  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / reynold contempora bass trombone on: Jan 03, 2004, 07:13AM
I' ve just looked at the Ebay horn. The bell is not as dark as my early horn and the script is different- Contempora was written with a single line, up the side of the bell on mine. Roth was nowhere on it.
Chris Stearn.
4853  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / reynold contempora bass trombone on: Jan 02, 2004, 10:37PM
My early Reynolds had 'Contempora' in script up the side of the bell, the later one had an oblong box engraved on the bell with Reynolds in it. I think the early one said Cleveland Ohio as well. No slide lock on the early one.
I think the flare of a Conn 70H bell and the Reynolds were very similar- Ostrander may well have used a very old 70H flare built onto the Reynolds.
Chris Stearn.
4854  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / reynold contempora bass trombone on: Jan 01, 2004, 11:00AM
I've always had a soft spot for the Reynolds double- mainly because it LOOKS so good. I've owned and used a couple of them over the years. First, there is a big difference between the early ones with the dark red bell, and the later ones with a lighter bell and no fancy engraving on the side of the bell. My first was a late type, and really sounded light and small- really not great, even for big band. The second was a very early one- late 50's ? nice old fit-around case, and it was in perfect condition- used to belong to the bass trombonist of the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra. That was a nice horn, very mellow and blending when played quietly, but able to give heavy edge when needed. Worked much better in the pit than on the concert platform. In the end, I used it little, so passed it on to the bass trombonist of English National Opera, who has always played one- he still uses it.
Chris Stearn.
4855  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Dual Bore Slides on: Dec 16, 2003, 01:05PM
Size and sound. Not all things are equal. Ben v D. makes a HUGE sound down low on his Thein, yet sounds like a tenor up high- stunning. More B v D than Thein I suspect, but it is interesting that German trombones have tended to be smaller in the slide but big in the bell, and sound as big as much larger U.S. models. My Rath is by no means small-.562 slides, but most bells flare to 9 1/4" which contains the sound, and my valve sections are early, and so have monster tube bore, which has been reduced on new models. Blown both- no real difference to me.
Sound is about 70% concept 30% gear. Maybe more % concept.
I know a pro trumpet player who is changing gear all the time- always sounds the same to me.
Maybe Paul, this is more a decent concept rant than a size matters thread. We have all heard good, no, great sounds from all sorts of trombones.
I'm not being 'smallist'- but I like that George Roberts type sound, and especially on bass, I hear it less and less.
Chris Stearn.
4856  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Dual Bore Slides on: Dec 15, 2003, 12:47PM
Edwards work better in dual bore on the bass- period. Tried .562 slides and they just didn't work. Played one for four years then gave up on it.
The Rath is so open anyway, that a dual slide turns it into a monster.
Big gear is handy when working with a big volume top class symphony orchestra, but can let you down in many other settings.
10 1/2" bells do the 'big' thing to a bass more than the .562/578 slides.
Tubby or not tubby, that is the question, whether 'tis...
sorry, just rambling again.
Tonally, mouthpieces can do more 'damage' than anything, tubafest time on the latest bucket...
No need to defend big gear...it sells and sells.
Chris Stearn.
4857  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / unusual bass trombone on: Dec 21, 2003, 12:01PM
Ah, she is so sweet !
No need for her to be nice either, as she now gives me more work than I can give her.
The other minor detail is that Lorna makes the most exciting and rich sound- as some of you have now heard, well ahead of the old teacher. Actually, to turn it around to Paul's original topic, Lorna is a great example of a player making a real bass trombone sound on a large, modern instrument.
Sound is in the head, not the hands.
Chris Stearn.
4858  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / unusual bass trombone on: Dec 21, 2003, 04:31AM
Well, it did sound similar to the silver bell Conn- half the weight to hold up though !!
Yes, Lorna was only blowing the Rath to humour an old man.
She is totally in love with the Conn.... if you know what I mean.
What I will say is that the silver bell-Greenhoe Conn and the nickel silver Rath, both make the sort of sound that I have always searched for, and both are tonally quite different from the standard spec. instruments.
Chris Stearn.
4859  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / unusual bass trombone on: Dec 20, 2003, 01:44PM
Now Lornamac tried my Rath R8 in nickel silver tonight. Looks like she's been on site, but no post yet. Sounded very like the silver bell Conn from the pit, but how did you like the Britbone Lorna ?
Chris Stearn.
4860  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / unusual bass trombone on: Dec 19, 2003, 02:19PM
Nothing more annoying than ex-students with total recall.
If I remember correctly, Lorna, you bought some of that stuff from me.
And who plays a trombone that I (old man that I am), cannot even hold up for any lenght of time ?
Tomorrow you get to try the Rath R8 single bass in nickel silver- hope you don't like it too much.        
Chris Stearn.
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