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1063601 Posts in 70734 Topics- by 18560 Members - Latest Member: Karen h
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81  Creation and Performance / Performance / Re: Why not the small bore for "legit" or classical style playing? on: Feb 21, 2017, 05:59AM
If you want to audition for an orchestra the default is, and has been for many years some kind of .547 bore tenor. That's it. End of. When you get past the audition you could be asked to play a smaller bore instrument... it's in our contract at the opera... we had a player trial on a Bach 16m and win the job.... just the rep he got. On the job people often play smaller gear to get nearer the sonic truth... more than 20 or 30 years ago...

Chris Stearn
82  Teaching & Learning / Practice Room / Re: Playing an octave above what is written for an audition. on: Feb 21, 2017, 05:40AM
I did not say that the panel already has someone in mind... how could I know that ?
All the panels I have sat on pretty much know what a candidate can do very soon on in the audition... but you have to maintain standards... people can lose on the last excerpt !!

Chris Stearn
83  Teaching & Learning / Practice Room / Re: Playing an octave above what is written for an audition. on: Feb 20, 2017, 11:40PM
Don't bother, the panel will most likely have made up it's mind on you in the first few lines of music.

Chris Stearn
84  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Whats the difference between Shires Trubore valves and M&W Valves? on: Feb 17, 2017, 10:23AM
Greenhoe did not ever make the valve "in house" ie, at the Jackson WI shop, instead using various (at lease 4 different contractors that I'm aware of) machine shops to do the actual machining of the valves/casings. There were schematics for both Greenhoe and Shires valve arrangements in the engineering documents on file at Greenhoe.

The early Shires section in our shop at present has an actual Greenhoe valve, with the engraving on the cap and valve ring.

Shires "may" have been capable of machining rotors/casings at this early stage, (for both companies to use) but I expect that Shires would also have been using contractor machine shops for at least the first several years. Machines capable of doing that type of machining are expensive and using contractor machine shops just makes sense when dealing with relatively small numbers as would have been the case at this stage of the game.

FWIW...
M

One thing I know about Steve Shires through hanging with him is that he is a total gear head tooling wise and attends factory closure sales and buys all sorts of things he thinks might be useful... they can do pretty much everything at the factory.

Chris Stearn
85  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Whats the difference between Shires Trubore valves and M&W Valves? on: Feb 17, 2017, 12:49AM
Just to clarify (and no doubt confuse some people) Shires did use Greenhoe valves early on in their production. (We have such an example in our shop at present) Shires then designed their own "enhanced rotor" valve, and used it in place of the Greenhoe. (I don't know if this valve is still listed in their catalog.) There is also the "dual bore" rotor offered by Shires now, which is another design again.

FWIW...
M

I was told, by someone close to the action at the time that early Greenhoe valves were made by outside suppliers to Gary's spec. and that Shires was a supplier. Shires made a very similar rotor for in house instruments... look at the core of a Greenhoe and the core of a Shires and they look very similar. I think there was some kind of lawsuit between Greenhoe and Shires, so the true facts may never surface.

Chris Stearn
86  Teaching & Learning / Practice Room / Re: Choosing a Parduba Double-Cup mouthpiece on: Feb 16, 2017, 12:33AM
What is wrong with the parduba? FWIW I never played one, but on trumpet I use a double cup Wedge, and I am quite happy with it. For me, it is not so much about high notes as it is about ligther sound. It is still a kind of compromise, it is difficult to get a decent sound on it below the staff.

Simply, the very few I have heard used sounded really dreadful. As it happens, I have a double cup bass mouthpiece in my collection... a PHD... slightly bigger than a 1 1/2G , it sounds and plays better than I expected but I have never used it in a playing situation... bright and a little hard in sound, it might improve with more outside mass. In the end, I just ask why ???

Chris Stearn
87  Creation and Performance / Performance / Re: Why not the small bore for "legit" or classical style playing? on: Feb 15, 2017, 02:48PM
Mostly based on Denis Wick's comments in "Trombone Technique".  And playing small bores myself (I have a sub-0.480" trombone).

You can make a nice sound on a small bore, but it's hard.  And I've heard too many comments on classifying the G bass as really a "percussion instrument".

That is Denis Wick justifying what he did in moving to the big instruments. There were indeed many benefits. You should listen to some pre war British orchestra recordings.... now a lost art... don't assume small instruments are inferior. I recently played on a recording that Ian Bousfield did of the Sache concerto on a small Sax trombone... nothing inferior there.

Chris Stearn
88  Creation and Performance / Performance / Re: Why not the small bore for "legit" or classical style playing? on: Feb 15, 2017, 02:09PM
First, Shires makes a nice 0.508" trombone and they have an F-attachment for it.  Apparently smaller bore instruments don't do so well in modular, so the smaller horns are not modular.

Second, if you are playing the higher trombone parts an F-attachment is not necessary.  In the "bad old days" they would offer a whole step or half step "trill valve" (still offered on some alto trombones).

You want to use a small bore in symphony?  Have at it.  But you need to play the large bore to win the audition; after that you can use what helps give the guy in front the sound he's looking for.

Denis Wick introduced the 88H into England to help replace some VERY small bore instruments used in English orchestras at the time.  They had a rather funny sound -- I think the term "piercing" would describe it.  The 88H coupled with a Bb/F large bore bass made the sound much more pleasant.

Bruce... your comments on the sound of British orchestras playing small bore trombones... are these based on hearing actual recordings ?

Chris Stearn
89  Creation and Performance / Performance / Re: Why not the small bore for "legit" or classical style playing? on: Feb 15, 2017, 02:07PM
@Dave

That's absolutely true.  Wick picked up Conn trombones, post-war, in the US.  There was an embargo in Britain following WWII that prevented the import of brass instruments to foster national industry.  The Besson trombones of that era weren't in the same category of the Conns, and so Wick helped several players smuggle Conn instruments into the country when the LPO did concert tours in Florida.  After the embargo, the British symphony scene had moved to Conn instruments and were hooked.

I still maintain that Wick and Remington, together, are largely responsible for the use of large-bore instruments in modern English-speaking orchestras.

Stan

I think it was the Philharmonia section that first attempted to bring Conn tenors back to the UK.  They were confiscated !!

Chris Stearn

90  Creation and Performance / Performance / Re: Why not the small bore for "legit" or classical style playing? on: Feb 15, 2017, 02:04PM
I think Emory Remington working with Conn to develop the 88H, and his influence on his students at Eastman School Probably led to Dennis Wick's interest and use of the Horn in London and Europe.

It was the NYPO playing at the Edinburgh festival that inspired british players to look for the large Conn trombones.

Chris Stearn
91  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Modular Trombone Survey on: Feb 10, 2017, 12:17PM
What's the difference between an 88H's myriad of handslide options and a Shires or Edwards?

Hell, an 8H, 8HT, and 8HK all have different bell tapers and thicknesses, and different materials. Is the defining characteristic of a modular horn the ability to remove the bell without changing anything else, or the ability to customize the horn however you'd like with bell/slide/valve/wrap options?

Literally any horn can have a different handslide or tuning slide attached to it, so as far as I can see 'modularity' really only means 'bell can be removed from neckpipe/valve.' That seems a lot less relevant than the options you can choose in ordering your horn, to me, albeit quite pedantic.


It's how it's put together..

Chris Stearn
92  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Mouthpieces / Re: Who in their right mind plays a Bach 1 1/2G ?? on: Feb 10, 2017, 08:12AM
People should state where they live... I think you will find few 1 1/2 players in the US but still many in the UK and Europe.
Chris Stearn
93  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Original Rath Bass Trombones on: Feb 10, 2017, 12:23AM
Chris does yours have Hagmann valves?

Hi Bill, no 34 is push fit leadpipe... very early pipe marked 25mm... yellow brass slide, standard oversleeves, bigger bottom bow guard, newer inline Hagmanns with the latest bracing, modular build, red brass tuning slide, 9 7/8" pure copper bell.
No 340 is an R8, nickel silver slide, no oversleeves, screw pipe fitment, single Hagmann valve, nickel silver tuning slide, 9 1/8" nickel silver bell.
I may invest in a gold or red brass bell to bridge the 'gap'  but  these horns work well.... using the nickel silver slide with the single Hagmann and red tuning slide, copper bell at the moment.

Chris Stearn
94  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Original Rath Bass Trombones on: Feb 09, 2017, 02:58PM
Back on thread....
I think Mick would be amused to think the early instruments are possibly thought of as being special.
Perhaps they are the ones that are now blown in !
Seriously, many of the early examples have been upgraded at the factory to later spec. I had both my early builds made modular by Mick and to me they played just as well. The early model I have just started using (no 34) has been refurbed at the factory and made modular.
In the early days there were some options and features that are no longer offered.... with constant development, some things were found to be less popular or better options were developed. I think Mick's trombones are probably still getting better.

Chris Stearn
95  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Bass Trombone suggestions? on: Feb 08, 2017, 02:33PM
I've recently been inducted into my high school jazz band as a bass trombonist and they only have a single trigger so-called "intermediate" Yamaha YSL-448G. So while I'm here reading grade 6 literature with low b's in every piece that I have that I just fake and also have petals that jump all over the place it's hard to articulate. So long story short does anyone have any cheap double trigger bass trombone suggestions?

I've played a couple of these Yamahas... they are fantastic and hard to better for double the money.... look with care.

Chris Stearn
96  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Original Rath Bass Trombones on: Feb 08, 2017, 12:00AM
Thanks, Chris. Glad I included the PS :/ Embarrassed!

Cheers

Stewbones

I didn't mean to put it impolitely ... just very very busy at the moment. Playing a mix of 34 and 340 today.... 34 was a copper bell... nice....

Chris Stearn
97  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Original Rath Bass Trombones on: Feb 07, 2017, 10:44AM
My original R8 and R9 were built solid but were then converted to modular and later still converted to TIS . Both pre 100.

Chris Stearn
98  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: What`s on your "Holy Grail"horn list? on: Feb 07, 2017, 10:40AM
Didn't a horn claiming to be Ray's pass through ebay a while ago? It had been significantly reworked, so hard to tell how much was real.

I briefly got to try another 169 that was smooth as silk, but went to a higher bidder. Sigh.

Still curious to try a real Krupse.

<Edit: Fixed quote>

I bought that one Steve. The slide was not original and a second valve was added and the valves open wrapped. The seller bought it from Pro Brass who told him the bell had been Premru's . I contacted them but they did not reply to my mail. If it was Ray's it may well have been the stolen one that was recovered.

Chris Stearn
99  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Original Rath Bass Trombones on: Feb 07, 2017, 10:35AM
I had a R9DTIS that was non modular. I don't t remember the serial number..

TIS came in after Mick went modular, so your instrument was probably not as it left the factory, unless it was special order non-modular.

Chris Stearn
100  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Original Rath Bass Trombones on: Feb 07, 2017, 10:32AM
I have a feeling that the R8 and R9 bass models might have been introduced after the change to modular models. It would be worth checking by emailing Raths directly.

Cheers

Stewbones

PS I could be wrong on this; I have been wrong before, but it wasn't a Tuesday.

Nope.... I was working with Mick in the early 2000's ... The early R8 and R9 were built solid... you got to try things out and when you were happy it would be finally soldered and lacquered. I remember having discussions about going modular and remember Mick deciding modular was the right way to go to be best able to offer customers choice and flexibility.

Chris Stearn
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