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1097410 Posts in 72525 Topics- by 19564 Members - Latest Member: Lontae
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1  Teaching & Learning / Practice Room / Re: Open Mouth on: Today at 03:16 AM
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Find the sweet spot, the most closed position you can use and get a good sound.
 

Find the sweet spot, the most open position you can use and get a good sound.

For mee both ways work, and it is actually the same position. 

Use your ears.

Does the positions change with range and loudness? Yes. I found that a change from 11 to 12 mm feel very much.

Also if I concentrate on the jaw position I play worse.
2  Teaching & Learning / Practice Room / Re: Open Mouth on: Feb 23, 2018, 04:19AM
I just made some experiments, I mesured the space between my teeth for an F in the staff when playing mf with as good sound I could with as closed mouth as possible. 11 mm. Then the same tone played with as open mouth a s possible with a good sound. 11 mm. I did the sam with some more tones, down to a loud pedal F. 19 mm both as closed or open as possible with a good sound.

On tuba the lowest pedals the mouth was slightly more open. as closed as possible with a good sound. And as open as possible with a good sound.
I am not saying that this is the same for othe players, but for me, it is the same, a good sound with as closed or open mouth is the same.

I have talked to, and watched very good players who open their mouth much more then me, with fantastic control and sounding enormously good. so I know there are many ways to skinn a cat.
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Closing the aperture of the teeth, so that my pinkie passes through, gives me a sound, that is more like 'satin', less brassy
Well there you are. Your first teacher could probably play good with an very open mouth, some players can, and made the misstake to believe that everybody should play the same way.
3  Teaching & Learning / Practice Room / Re: Low register chin movement issues on: Feb 23, 2018, 03:56AM
It seems that my chin wants to move when I articulate from    down to 
If I tongue these notes as repeated 16ths I have no problem with a moving chin but if I tongue them as say two eighth notes  on each note I notice that I am moving my chin. I've been trying for a few months now to address this issue on my own but it seems just focusing on not moving my chin isn't working. Any suggestions? This is only happening in the low register. If I need to post a video I will.
I may missunderstnd you, but you can correct me if I am wrong.
Is your chin (jaw) moving as you tongue? Not when tonguing fast but when tonguing slow?

What happens if you start the tones with just air no tongue? If you play several tones with short breaks inbetween just with air attacks until you got the hang of it, then add the toungue, you start the tones with breath attacks and quickly stop the tone with the tongue and immediatly relise the tone as an ordinary toungue attack.

There is common practise to drop the jaw in low pedals in loud playing, but for that range you are talking about it should not be necesary.
4  Teaching & Learning / Pedagogy / Re: Define "breath support" on: Feb 18, 2018, 06:58AM
Breath support means using the abdominal muscles to push air.

My teacher used to talk about "diaphragm support" but we all know that the diaphragm can't push; only pull.  He had me feel his abdomen.  Firm muscles.  He called that "diaphragm support".
Ha ha yes that was the idea in the old days, I was also told about the "diaphragma" many times. Sometimes I did asked " but where in the body is the diaphragma?"  " DONT ASK STUPID QUESTIONS!!!" was the answer. :)
5  Teaching & Learning / Pedagogy / Re: Define "breath support" on: Feb 18, 2018, 06:53AM
The ability to deliver the necessary amount of air to produce the desired sound with the least amount of physical effort. This needs to be done consistently and sustainably with regards to the player’s anatomy as well as appropriately for musical expression.

That sounds dry but I think covers the bases.

Yes.
6  Teaching & Learning / Practice Room / Re: Open Mouth on: Feb 17, 2018, 03:34AM
Well, I guess we are all talking about the space between the teeth. Ok.
Can the space be to large? To small? We are talking about pedaltones right?

I can play pedal tones from Bb down to F with my teeth all closed. I can also play those pedals with the space so big that I can put my thumb between my teeth with that space. Neither works for a good sound, the right space for me is somewhere inbetween. No to big. Not to small.

Go for the sound! Do not strive for the right space between your teeth before you listen for the sound. Some players has a bigger space some others have a smaller space inbetween the teeth.

7  Teaching & Learning / Practice Room / Re: Open Mouth on: Feb 16, 2018, 01:24PM
How thick is your thumb?  :)

You mean a big space between your teeth right? Does that include a big space between the lips?
I did meet many bass trombone students that tried to get a big sound by separating the lips. The sound was big but not very good.
The apperture is constantly changing between open and closed, there should still firmnes in the corners even in lowest pedals.
It is actually impossible to give a good answer to your question, there are different ideas, and players do it differently.
Many bass trombone players do play pedals with an "open mouth" but keeping the lips together in the mpc. Some players warns against it, actually I never meet a bass trombone player who did, and I really meet a few.
Some players go by their feel, some others go by the sound.

Some tenor players play pedals with lose corners, using the soft inside of the lips, that does not sound very good in my ears.

Anyway I will try an advice. Do no let the lips lose contact with each other.
If that help I am glad, if not, well....
8  Teaching & Learning / History of the Trombone / Re: How did the SLIDE come to stay? on: Feb 16, 2018, 05:52AM
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About Verdi: I have a theory that valve bones were used in his operas not necessarily because he wanted them or cared one way or the other, but because the players recognized that this new technology helped them play in the cramped orchestra pit without banging their slides into the viola's chair backs.
Once he recognized their technical facility he started writing technical parts for them.
Just a theory
Yes.
Verdi di not really have a choise because the slide trombone was simply out of fashion in the Italian pits. And he would probably not write those parts for slides anyway.
9  Teaching & Learning / History of the Trombone / Re: How did the SLIDE come to stay? on: Feb 16, 2018, 05:48AM
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On the other hand, the trombone is probably the most difficult of all brass instruments to start a note cleanly - articulation is our hardest problem.
 

Are you sure about that? Have you played French horn? Tuba? Do you think amature trupeters have good articulation?
10  Teaching & Learning / History of the Trombone / Re: How did the SLIDE come to stay? on: Feb 16, 2018, 02:13AM
This really a valid question. The trombone history starts at the begining of the 15th centuary, as Burgerbob said it was very much used as it could all the chromatic scales and play in tune. There where aome fantastic players mentioned in the some books from the 16th and 17th centuary. The valve trombone was coming up in the first half of the 19th centuary, thanks to the agility the valve trombone took the lead in most of Europe. For example in all of the Verdi operas the trombone parts is meant for valved trombones. The slide trombones come back was mostly a question of sound and actually agility, Paul Weschke proved that the trombone was abel to play with a very big range and fast runs. And the sound of the trombone is what it makes it still stand up to the valved trombones.

Even though there has been some players on the valve trombone that really showed that the valve trombone has it place.
The first time I meat Dennis Wick 1965 he said "the trombone is said to be the only brass instrument that can be played in tune in all musical situations, unfortunately the opposite is often the case."

A modern cimbasso is a valved contrabass valve trombone. In the beginning it was not a trombone at all.


11  Teaching & Learning / Pedagogy / Re: Stevens-Costello Palm Exercise adapted for tenor trombone on: Feb 15, 2018, 03:31AM
Well, it is sometimes good to test new ways. Try every thing... use what works.
 
But after trying, do not hesitate to stop doing things that do not work.

If you have lots of sparetime and no up coming gigs it may be a good time to test new things, but take it easy, it may take some time to find your way back.
12  Teaching & Learning / Pedagogy / Re: Maggio on: Feb 15, 2018, 03:06AM
Trumpet teacher Pops addresses it briefly here:

http://www.bbtrumpet.com/embouchures/



Pops site is very good, as it describes some different ways to play. They all work. For the right players. There is no universal embouchure that is right for everybody.

There is a lot of truth  in Sam´s saying try everything use what works. But stop doing things that do not work even if it works for somebody else.
13  Teaching & Learning / Practice Room / Re: Alto, tenor and bass trombone tripling - yea or nay? on: Feb 13, 2018, 03:33AM
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What's your take on this? Is it recommended to try tripling on bass/tenor/alto? Can it be done, or even beneficial, or is it more likely to destroy my embouchure on all three?

It can be done, with practise. The question is what level you want to reach. For many the doubling on alto has helped their high range on tenor.
Ii is sometimes said that the alto does not play higher, but that is a false statement. It is easier to play high on alto, if you practise on it, you can´t play higher that what you practise. The doubling on bass have helped the low´s for many tenor trombonists.

As many other I have tried the same rim on alto tenor and bass. It does work. But there is no really good solution for me, the same rim only make it harder to realise the you have to think different sound. Today I do not play alto, I play small and large tenor Bas and tuba. ( I have tried the same rim for bass trombone and tuba, it does work, in away, but not if I like to be serious on both horns).

So the question, what level? You can try the same rim, if you like the result, if it works for what you like to do, go for it. You can allways change your mind if you think you like to get further.

One of the most beautiful alto playing I heard is actually from Tom. I do not allways like alto even when some pro players play. Mostly for the lazy idea that the get by using their tenor size mpc, and don not practise the alto enough.
14  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Large bore obsession on: Feb 13, 2018, 02:52AM
My school band director/teacher, whom I am looking forward to help in advising trombone students after I go back to my home country, has quite an obsession with large-bore trombone, or at least he seems to have. So now we have 6th-graders walking around with .547" horns, 1st trombone (8th- and 9th-graders) also with .547" horns, and a 9th-grade girl with a Bach 50B, which she has been using since 8th grade at least. He also prefer large bore when looking for a new (used) horn, so almost all the newer horns in the band are .547", and a few .525"/.547" dual.

Is there any reason to justify this? Conversely, is there any harm this can do to the students? If the latter is the case, I would like some strong arguement to convince him, because he might still see me as a student of him.

The students didn't say much (except the bass girl who sometimes says she has not enough air for the 50B, of which I'm not surprised), but maybe they just don't know if something's wrong or how to express it. I was like that when I was in the band in middle school.
Interesting thread. There was a large bore obsession in Swedesh school years ago. Today the Yammaha 500 bore is much in ues. I must say that those horns work much better for kids to be the first horn. The bass comes much latter, the first "bass" could be a 547 bore.
"kids play the 547 bore horns very good" well I sertainly have not seen that very much. Often the 500 bore was a big relife to yong persons after struggling with the 547 bore horn.

Whe it comes the grown ups the playing sitation is what makes the choise of horns. In an big band the blend in the section is important.
I remember years ago when a young player subbed i a bigband that was big in Sweden, the guy brought his 547 as that was his only horn. The lead player said after the gig "You are a good player, but next time you better bring a smaller horn". After that he play only 500 bore horns, Yammaha. Red with Yammaha in white letters in the bell.
In a symphony orchestra you play what the leader or conducter tell you to play. The composer have no say, the conductore desides and you may think it is right or wrong, you play what you are suposed to play.

Years ago I was aked to play Mozart´s Requiem on modern instruments. I know that this happens sometimes, but I absolutely refuse to participate in that, I been asked to several times, but I think modern horns absolutely destrys the beauti of that music.

In big bands I do have the oldfashion idea that the bass should sound like a trombone, I often hear (amature) bigband where the bass does not blend with the tenor bones, but sound like it is trying very hard to sound like a contrabass trombone.
15  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Mouthpieces / Re: Bigger mouthpiece gives more volume? on: Feb 11, 2018, 01:08PM
I saw Charlie Vernon do Chicka Bone Checkout when he was down at ASU. I could hear is pedal tones bouncing off the back wall of the concert hall. The player makes equipment loud more than the other way around.

Well Charlie play very big mouthpieces, yes he can play loud and has a big sound. I heard other players playing the same mpc. Woofy.

What is a big sound? I heard trumpet players destroying bigbands with loudnes and big sound that the band could not match.

I think a good sound is a good goal, a very big sound is not allways a good sound.
16  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Mouthpieces / Re: sackbut mouthpiece Romera Daniel Lassalle on: Jan 21, 2018, 08:47AM
Thank you Stan.

I did play much sackbut in 60th up to the 90th and have some drawers full of mouthpieces, today I own three sackbuts in different tunings. To day I only play sackbut in some occasions like Mozart Requiem or older music. I allways bring three mouthpieces so I can use the one that fit together with the other sacckbut players and the orchestra and chorus. Most often the sackbuts try to blend with the chorus.

I have through the years seen lots of "historic copies", well they dont look much alike, some variations. To say the least.

Most of the sackbut players I play with are trombone players in symphony orchestras or freelancers who play all kinds of music like my self.
Not many play only sackbut.
17  Teaching & Learning / Composition, Arranging and Theory / Re: Composer-arrangers : Do you NEED a strong melody? on: Jan 16, 2018, 05:01AM
A good melody helps, sure, but it's by no means necessary for a piece to be good or even memorable.

Think of it, probably the most recognizable piece of classical music of all times doesn't really have a proper melody.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxSkaepmGQ0
The second movement. A good melodie.
18  Creation and Performance / Trombonists / Re: Low C above pedal Bb on: Jan 15, 2018, 06:43AM
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If that is the case, would it be worth working it as a falset position instead, like svenne does?
Well, if the low C using two triggers is difficult, the falset will not be easier. Unless there is something wrong with the secund trigger.
(I play the low C on the same position as trigger E v3, or open 7)

The pedal Bb is possible to blow fast and forced. (try not to) The doubble trigger tones does not work the same way. Actually all low tones should be played with a large air volume, but slow air. Maybe you are blowing to hard?

By the way, try another mouthpiece. For me there are so many good mouthpiece out there. But for me the 1G is not working very good, really dont know why.

Find a good bass trombonist, take some lessons, ask her/him about the the horn and low C. And the mouthpiece.
There are some good players using 1G. But they have been playing for a long time and have a very developed embouchure.
19  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Mouthpieces / Re: Mpcs in British orchestras on: Jan 14, 2018, 01:38AM
Denis always used an 8H, never an 88H..... he used a 42B for a bit but never liked the valve.... he could honk out the valve notes as fakes on an 8H no problem.
The 4AL was the original. Everything else followed on.

Chris Stearn
Denis sound on the fakes tones was just as good or better then valved tones.
20  Creation and Performance / Trombonists / Re: Low C above pedal Bb on: Jan 12, 2018, 01:51AM
Is low C a more difficult tone? Not for most basstrombnists, for a pro no, it is not a difficult ton. Normaly.
If the tones using both triggers are hard, D Db C B and Bb, it is probably something with the second trigger. Maybe it is dirty?
Are you used to play in just the mouthpiece? Can you buzz the tones in the mouthpiece? I guess your slide is on the right spot?
If you have D in first position with both triggers, you C is a little lower the regular 4th position.
Let somebody else try the horn to se if the low C is bad for other players to. If it is see a tech.
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