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1  Teaching & Learning / Beginners and Returning Trombonists / Re: Respiratory trainer on: Sep 18, 2017, 06:31AM
Swimming, running, walking practicing the Caruso 6 tones and all scales and broken chords. Singing in a choir.
2  Teaching & Learning / Pedagogy / Re: Nomenclature on: Sep 11, 2017, 02:05AM
Not to confuse you, but in the Netherlands we learn the Helmholtz pitch notation:


The scientific pitch notation makes more sense to me.

Yes Ted, actually it is what we learn(ed) in Sweden too. It still lingers on with older musicians, the younger goes with the scientific pitch notation.

I believe in the Netherlands like in Sweden you have/hade the tone H?
A chromatic downgoing scale down from C goes C H B A Ab G Gb F E Eb D Db C. A sharpend H is H#, a flattend H i B.

Well, do you still think the nomenclature is difficult? Pant

Actually in a conference 1987 we decided that from now (1987) we say Bb and H, after 10 years from now we say Bb and B like it should be from the begining.

You know what, it is still a problem here!  :D  Embarrassed!
3  Teaching & Learning / Pedagogy / Re: Nomenclature on: Sep 10, 2017, 03:11AM
Go for it Tim!  Hi
4  Teaching & Learning / Pedagogy / Re: Nomenclature on: Sep 09, 2017, 07:06AM
F5 is F5, if played on #1. position on a Bb trombone it the 12th partial, if played on #2,5. position its the 13th partial, played on the #4. postition it is the 14th partial, if played on a Bb trumpet on the open horn it is the 6th partial. If played on a Eb alto on #1. position it is the 9th partial.

All the pedals is first partial.

The dubblepedals is another story. :D

I am sorry to make troubble for you, this is another difference between countries. I Sweden most trombone players are fully awere about the partials. Different school system I guess.
5  Teaching & Learning / Pedagogy / Re: Nomenclature on: Sep 08, 2017, 06:45AM

I guess it's just me, but when I see guys throwing partials around to name notes

But if I say that most modern trombones is sharp on the 6th partial, I am saying all 7 tones from "high" F down to B is sharp.
Well the 15th partial on all my trombones does not slot very good.
The "super" (or "super duper"? ) A down to D#.

6  Teaching & Learning / Pedagogy / Re: Nomenclature on: Sep 07, 2017, 01:36AM
I believe that a student should pick up his horn during a demo in a session and try to echo or emulate back to the instructor what the student just heard the instructor doing through his horn. That, supported by the verbal explanation - which may have a translation gap, depending.

At for the use of the term "partials", I believe it is a valuable term when evaluating a horn, as in "The partials line up nicely", or "The partials slot nicely". Otherwise - the use of say, "The 15th partial" is lost on me (just tell me what note it is, please) and sounds pretentious to me.

++++ Adding on to my own post here (as I sometimes will do). I believe the term "partial(s)" is a good generality term. For example: I think my vintage Conn 88H has more open slots in the higher partials than does my vintage King 4B/F.


Yes Geezer, I agree with you, the " try to echo" method is the method, I call it the "monkey method" my self.

I donīt follw you about the partials (well to say the 15th partial is lost on me does sound very pretentious) I find it useful like playing t.ex. high F (super F) on 1st position or 2,5th position, on 12th partial or 13th partial.

Yes you use to talk about how the partials line up. Like my Alexander alto has flatt 3rd partial.
7  Teaching & Learning / Pedagogy / Re: Nomenclature on: Sep 06, 2017, 12:46AM
The international phonetic alphabet is just another way that humans have tried to impose order out of the chaos of a myriad of noises we can make. Nothing right or wrong, good or bad, just...

I tnink that is a nice try.
But I also think it is useless in trombone teaching.

It is like this.

Different languages and dialects use the moth tongue and even throat in different ways, some sound is easy for certain individuals difficlt for others.
It is a big misstake to believe that all good trombonists do use the same way of playing.
Trombone playing have a very long history. Good playing. Lots of different "wovels".

There is not one "the correct way" forget it.

I do believe that Doug Elliot, Sam Burtis, Chris Stearn and others has helped lots of players with problem, (I have too) but not in teaching the "Correct way" we are all different.
8  Teaching & Learning / Pedagogy / Re: Nomenclature on: Sep 05, 2017, 01:30PM
OK, since you ask... the International Phonetic Alphabet is one international standard for describing pronunciation.

I'm not claiming that is well-known or easy to use. It certainly is not.

But if describing something with an example in English, which is more widely used and spoken around the world than any other language on the planet, is immediately attacked as being too provincial and too obscure, I don't know what else to do except resort to an "international standard" of pronunciation.

It's a problem, but English is the closest thing we have to something everyone is familiar with, especially on a board that is run as an English-language board.

Ok so you say that international standard is the same, or built on "international standard of pronunciation" ?

9  Teaching & Learning / Pedagogy / Re: Nomenclature on: Sep 05, 2017, 07:05AM
Yes for me the G7(b5) could imply also a #5. A G7(#11) could use any scale with both D and C#.
If it is a chord the arrangement can have a D and a C# allmost allways one octave up.
A G7(b9) can use the half-whole tone diminished.
(alterations should always be in parenthesis)
yes that is right, many musicians I know are over 80 years old, They donīt care about the parenthesis.
10  Teaching & Learning / Pedagogy / Re: Nomenclature on: Sep 05, 2017, 06:53AM
Perhaps brass players should first take a course in the phonetic alphabet before deciding what kind of syllables to adopt for articulation.  Clever


:D Idea! Evil
11  Teaching & Learning / Pedagogy / Re: Nomenclature on: Sep 05, 2017, 01:54AM
mr.deacon your post is very nice and good, I do agree with everything.
When I was young 50+ years ago, the M allways ment a major chord. You could also write Major or minor, the M was allways Major the m was allways minor.
Then came the triangel.
Then came the praxis to write M in Minor and in some sheet music M for minor. Very confusing for an old fart, the dyslexi does not really help. :cry:

Another thing about chords, I see chords like G7#4.  ??? is that a b5 or #11? Not the same thing in my mind.
12  Teaching & Learning / Pedagogy / Re: Nomenclature on: Sep 05, 2017, 01:46AM
Syllables, I dunno... it's hopeless. Even if you find an international standard to describe them someone pops up to assert that people in far off somewhereland make that same syllable sound in a totally different way that will ruin their trombone career.
What is "international standard"? There are book written on many langugaes on trombone playing?
Italian, German, Danish?
Well...forget it.
13  Teaching & Learning / Beginners and Returning Trombonists / Re: Open wrap? Closed wrap? on: Sep 04, 2017, 09:51AM
Over the years I have owned nad tested plenty of horns with "closed" and "open" wrap.
Some very good horns, some not so good. I could never find that the way the valve(s) was wraped did anithing to the difference. But an open wrap get dented more easily.
My very old Bach 45B have a very old valve (1954) and it works beautifully!
14  Teaching & Learning / Pedagogy / Re: Nomenclature on: Sep 04, 2017, 09:42AM

Thankyou for the responses. Beautiful post Bruce!
When trying to play in tune with some bands I think the trombone may have hundreds of positions!

In your case, this system might not work well, given your dyslexia.
Well you know that is not really how dylexia works. I did play inline horns with different second valve tunings, and tought double valve positions to students on university and gymnasium for 30 years.
When playing I see a note and play it. I really do not think of positions or valves in the playing moment. But before that I have practised a lot on the valves and positions! That is how dyslexia works. Same as all other players but just more practising.

Geezerhorn, you are old fashion?  ;-)

Well you know in my neighbourhood a high F is what you say is a super F!

But I know what you mean when you say super F.

For the partials is more precise, the 7th partial canīt  be anything bu the 7th partial. I think itīs a good way, if we talke about the 11th, 13th or 15th partial we can caunt from the pedalton as being #1. Ok you prefer ledger lines and thats up to you as long as we can understand each other.

15  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Intermediate trombone on: Sep 04, 2017, 03:13AM
I would check dj kennedy, whatever you do bring your teacher when trying horns.
16  Teaching & Learning / Pedagogy / Nomenclature on: Sep 03, 2017, 10:27AM
Sometimes the discousions on the TTF get weird because of different way of wording things and because of that, missunderstandings, I am aware of that my bad spelling may cause some missunderstanding. (I do have a problem with a mild dyslexi).
I have some examples of what, I will talk about two.

Are there right or wrong ways to tell slide positions?

Ex. when you use the F attachment you have jus 6 positions (or very often just 5 1/2)
The low Eb is sometimes called just T3, sometimes described as b3 or 3- or 3+ or 4+ or 4- or #4 or bb3 or something else. One funny thing is that + is used by some to indicat that the tone should be raised by others just the oposite, the slide is to be longer.

Just like the 7the partial G is descibed as #2, -2, +2 by different writers.

For students it can be very confusing when using different books. When I worked as a teacher I never used the + or - for that reason. I do not say itīs wrong, just that I prefer something that is lesser risk of missundersting.

Tom Malone (Alternate Position System For Trombone) use 1.7 for the high G. Reginald Fink #2 for the same tone, Budy Baker use -2, as does Rich Willey in "The Reinhardt Routines" many other say +2 meaning the same as #2. Confusing? Well not for an X teacher, we have seen it all.

Staying with this books, about using vocal sounds, Syllebels to describe the formation of the mouth cavity ,Rich Willy recomend particing "HOOO" in many studies for no tongue practice. (Just that is used a lot for many years in Eroupe ,just add the tongue for the attack). Body Baker (tenor trombone method) use DEE THA THAW THU an DOO for tonguing advice. TAW TUH TIH TEE for staccato.

Each sylleble can of be said lots of different ways.

The important thing is how it sounds, I have hundreds of book about brass playing in my hous, not looking in the much anymore, but I know there are many more way to descibe tonguing.

You can probably find more stuff to talk about missunderstanding and missconceptions on?

(PS as Tom Malone are writing about tones in the higher range he is trying to be as exact as possible, as 11th partial Eb 1.5, 13th partial F# 1.4.)
17  Teaching & Learning / Practice Room / Re: Have you ever felt that your lips aren't "flexible" enough? on: Sep 03, 2017, 09:00AM
For now, forget the pedals. Ab is enough for most wind bands, the lower tones you leave to the tubas.
But do buy a practice mute and do some practice every day. 15 minutes is a lot more then nothing.
I belive on playing the pedals with kind of the same sort of embouchure you use for the middle range.
I do believe on keeping the "corners firm and the cheek pointed down" in all ranges.
In the future you may want to play in bigband and/or orchestras, but as allready said, it does take mor time on the horn.

No I donīt think the "unfurl" embouchure is a good idea. I know tha some trumpet players use it (I tell by the sound) but I really really donīt believe that is a way to good low range that you can control. Try to find some recordings with good bass trombonists. The one who most bass trombonist is influenced by i George Roberts, others are Ray Premru, Tony Stud, Kenny Shroyer, Bill Reichenbach,Blair Bollinger, David Taylor.
All of the above are playing the bass trombone with a real trombone sound tha they keep all the way down to the lowest pedals. Do not forget that a bass trombone is also espected to play alomost as high as the tenor trombones. (or higher :-P)
18  Teaching & Learning / Practice Room / Re: Double buzz - please help on: Sep 03, 2017, 02:41AM
Good for you Dave!
Yes it is a question of balance.
19  Teaching & Learning / Practice Room / Re: Have you ever felt that your lips aren't "flexible" enough? on: Sep 03, 2017, 02:39AM
Hi sirisobhakya as Leif said it is not completely clear what you do.
When you say that you open you mouth, do you mean that you increse the space between your lips? Do you pull the lips out of you mouthpiece?

Years ago I tried something like that (around 50 years ago! man I am an old fart) that way I could produce low sounds. The sound was far from a nice bass trombone sound though, as I rember the parts of my lips making the closer part of the open/close cycle nessecary to make a tone, was the inner soft flabby part of my lips, yes it could be loud, and kind of scary  Evil . I do say that is what you are doing, I am just guessing. That was not a way to make nice sounds though, not for me anyway.

We hade a discoussion about "The M position" on the TTF a while ago, the "M" does not mean anything more then that the lips do meet. In the vibration cycle there is a very short moment where the lips meet, a much longer moment where the  lips move away and back to the meeting moment. If I understand you correct (it not sure that I do) your lips are to far from each other to meet properly, so the inner part that is so soft that it can "get longer", the airflow does pull the parts together.

That is not a method that I recomend.

How much pedaltones do you need in the Wind ensemble? What mouthpiece do you use?

You do not spend a lot of time with the mouthpiece on your mouth, twice a week? Well a good pedal Ab is good pay for that time input. To get a good pedal F or Eb you have to practice a lot more, that is the simple answer.

It boils down to how much time you want spend on your horn.

Yes I have moments where my lips arnīt flexible enough. The morning after a hard days night. Maybe after 8-10 hours of loud playing. (that does not happen anymore, but often enough 20 years ago) , soft play in the middle range, break, more soft playing in both low and high range, and then of the the next gig.

There are many methods to practise low range, some works for many players, some does damage some and work for others. May recomendation is: play music in the low range, transpose any melody down. Be awere of your airflow, keep it steady, donīt blow hard, a slow wind but large, rather warm instead of cold. (not like the high range) Try to keep the "M" even in low tones.
20  Teaching & Learning / Practice Room / Re: How loud should I practice? on: Sep 02, 2017, 04:37AM
Actually there are lots of Swedes that believe that only the Swedish way is the best!  >:(
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