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1063610 Posts in 70698 Topics- by 18586 Members - Latest Member: THERIVERSIDEHOTBAND
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1  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: I bought an alto. on: Today at 08:59 AM
This is one of the reason why Shires and Rath only do TIS altos.  Its hard to make the horn in tune when you're altering such a huge proportion of the tapered part of the instrument's length.

I do the same thing Harrison does. I've relented and decided to pull mine just a touch. I did this because I have a bass trombone tuning slide that was cut down, but the bell and valve were not, so they cannot be fully pushed in.  As such, it rests about 1cm out. To keep things consistent, my other horns (which are all Shires at this point) are also pulled out roughly the same distance.

That said, I also play an Elliott 104N rim. Harrison plays a rim slightly larger from the looks (ca. 1.060"). So that may help with that decision. I find that the larger rim helps me to be more in tune in general though so perhaps not.
2  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Valve replacement for Gen. 2 88H. on: Today at 08:48 AM
I agree with you all on this one.  I have zero complaints with the horn, and I can look at options in a year or two. It performs fantastically on all ends of the range. The valve isn't stuffy ( and has great action), but I'd prefer something wth less resistance. I used to work at a shop so I've gotten to play Thayer, Hagmann, etc. We'll see!

Bear in mind - as others have mentioned - also that you've tried other horns not just other valves.  A Conn 88 with a Thayer has more differences with a Bach 42 with a Thayer than similarities, at least on paper. If you tried another horn with Hagmann or Thayers and you liked it, you may also like other characteristics of that horn!

Also, fwiw, if you like the way your horn plays but want something to cover low parts you could just get an inexpensive bass. Used or foreign can really keep costs down.  Mack Brass has one for around the same price as adding a Hagmann to your Conn.  (Don't just buy one off eBay though!! THere are some brands that have a better track record than others!)

I recently did a project where (Eric did a lot of the work actually!) I made a dependent, closed wrap tenor valve section.  (Bb/F/D).  I was slightly disappointed by the way it plays in the low range. It plays like a big tenor! However, it should be no surprise that it plays like a tenor since it is, actually, a tenor.  When I swap out the other components for a Thayer valve I recently picked up, the low stuff speaks on it very similarly to the rotors. (Both are in very good shape according to a tech I took it to, so its unlikely that both are in any kind of disrepair).  When I compare them to an actual bass trombone, its a completely different ball of wax.

Point being that I've spent a fair amount of bread trying to make a tenor something that it is not.  Even a Wessex, Mack Brass, etc. works better for the function it is intended for and will end up costing you a similar amount.  You can also get a single valve or dependent Yamaha and sometimes Bach or King for under $1500, or even $1000 if you are patient. 

Brownie points for being on stage with two instruments too. Makes you look twice as competent. Which is something I sorely need  Good!
3  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Valve replacement for Gen. 2 88H. on: Today at 04:06 AM
How do you know the rotary is as good as a traditional rotary can get? ;-)

The Conn's I've owned with valves have had burrs and other build issues that weren't expensive to fix but made a fairly big difference how they played.

Also, the slide might feel fine but if it's leaking it'll actually make the action better than if it was sealing well so you can't tell, per se, that the slide is in good shape by how quickly it moves. You may be surprised to find that an alignment makes it much easier to play.

On a similar note, how frequently do you clean it? The difference between a large bore and a medium bore is only .22, which if you look at a ruler you'll realize is not very much! If you've allowed debris to accumulate you're probably playing a smaller horn than you think! Could also be influencing the f tubing you have too. Beyond that, corrosion can occur on your rotor if you aren't diligent in oiling it frequently (or even if you are dopeending on your body chemistry). Getting it cleaned may help it seal better and help both the bb and f sides of the horn.

There have been a number of people who have added aftermarket rotors. There are some really good options out there. I'd personally put the Olsen valves on something g right now if I had the money but I've seen an 88 with every valve you've mentioned. Are they necessary in your context? Nope! You should be fine with the horn if you have a tech verify that the above problems arent influencing it's behavior. Are they cool? I think so. Are they "worth" putting on in your case? That's really up to you.

If you just replace the rotor core and casing, parts plus labor shouldn't be more than $1k. Potentially much less. The rotax for example is ca. $500 and you'll need your tech to remove the rotor and then solder the new rotor in place. The last time I had this done it was $150 in labor. So approximately $750. But your price will vary doending on if there are other complications.
4  Teaching & Learning / Composition, Arranging and Theory / Re: Leadsheet for New York, New York on: Yesterday at 06:01 PM
Its in the realbook volume 5

If you just want the chords, you can also find them on the iRealPro forums for its app:

5  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Accessories / Re: Looking for small case with a music pocket on: Yesterday at 09:04 AM
I don't think they're lying, it may be intended for music. But that doesn't speak to how effective it is as a pouch as it doesn't say how big the pouch is. From the pictures of it (unless the pictures are of a different case, which is entirely possible), it looks like the pouch is part of the body of the case and no larger.  The bell is 21cm, so the pouch must be slightly smaller than that, perhaps by a few CM in that case.  Most sheet music I play is at least 21.59CM (8.5" for us imperial folk). So it wouldn't work at all for me.

If, however, you only need to carry photocopies of a few charts around, or even one of those mini realbooks, it might work swimmingly.

Before you order, I'd definitely ask them to measure it for you and see if its wide enough to put what you wish to put in it.
6  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Shires Q Series on: Yesterday at 08:56 AM
You may be confusing the Eastman by Shires product, which are made in China. In that case I don't believe that there is a QC done at the Shires factory either.

The Q series are, as Ben (who is an employee) states, only assembled in China. So you are getting the same parts as you would on a custom horn. The only difference is those parts are assembled in China.
7  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Accessories / Re: Looking for small case with a music pocket on: Yesterday at 08:08 AM
How big is that pocket? It looks like you may be able to fit music folded in half or music meant for lyres but not much larger unless you left the pouch unzipped.
8  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: I bought an alto. on: Yesterday at 08:07 AM
I'll say that the Yamaha altos I've played were consistently in tune. (Perhaps with the exception of one I played a few years ago that had some kind of aftermarket rotor added to it that was for sale at Dillon).

They are small though. 471 bore I believe? If you overblow it, bad things can definitely happen! Note that I tried the Yamahas with my Elliott C"alto" shank when I was trying out altos a few years ago.  I did notice that a 2 or 3 shank did make the intonation harder to control.

9  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Shires Q Series on: Yesterday at 08:02 AM
According to Ben Griffin:

How do we do it?  It's international commerce at its finest.  S.E. Shires fabricates the Q parts in Hopedale, Massachusetts, USA, then ships the parts to the Eastman factory in China where they are assembled, and then the instrument is sent back to Shires.  The final finishes, quality checks and play-tests are  then done in Hopedale before shipping to dealers.  And that's how you get a custom quality trombone/trumpet at a moderate price!
10  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Accessories / Re: Looking for small case with a music pocket on: Yesterday at 06:51 AM
If I really, really wanted a small music pouch on a small case, I'd honestly just get some gorilla glue and glue one to an eastman or one of the SKB 360s. I'm not aware of any compact case that has such an option by default. Fusion cases (bags) kind of have that as an option.  But they aren't particularly compact.

Someone here awhile ago posted a modification they made to an Eastman case where they drilled two holes in it and put some broom mounting brackets so they could attach a hamilton trombone stand. I'm tempted to do that myself.  But I've always found music easier carried in a backpack or similar because its light and actually fits in a bag... trombone stands not so much!!
11  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Accessories / Re: Post Cronkite - who makes the finest gig bag? on: Yesterday at 06:44 AM
I can never figure out how to post photos. Send me an email to zactheoneguy@yahoo.com and I will hook you up!

You can send them to my email (button on left!) and I can post them somewhere.
12  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Development of an Ergonomic Euphonium on: Apr 26, 2017, 12:56PM
Yes, really!

He goes in to say:

It is impossible to retain the character of flugelhorn, euphonium or tuba with a long enough slide to play the full range chromatically.

On the other page:

He wanted more than a bass trombone sound.  I told him that it was impossible to have the large tapered body of even a small tuba in combination with the long cylindrical tubing needed for a trombone slide.  I suggested that an interesting compromise might be to use a euphonium bell and body attached to a normal bass trombone slide.

In line with that, the article you references also indicates:

Both in the patent and on the contest entry form, and also in the press reports of the contest, the instrument is described as a double-slide contrabass (or double B flat) trombone.

(Emphasis added)

It also states that:

... The bores of the inner slide legs being 12.9, 13.9, 15.1, and 16.1... George Case gives D.J. Blaikley and himself credit for remodelling the double-slide trombone and claims that it was a Boosey instrument used in the 1861 Crystal Palace Contest.

Meaning that it was both labelled as a trombone and the primary pitch adjuster was a 4 stepped, cylindrical tubes as you would find in a trombone.

Although Arnold Myers (the author of the article) declares it a slide tuba due to the "proportions of cylindrical to expanding tube", he does not expand on how having a four, conical slide tubes makes it not a trombone. But the semantics of that are perhaps better served in a separate thread as to not distract from the cool stuff coming out of Wessex.

When I played euphonium, I liked having the 4th valve be separate if for no other reason than it was easier for me to think of my right hand as my slide and my left hand as my F attachment.  Even though my index finger was used instead of my thumb on the left hand, it made it much easier to conceive of fingerings that used it.  Perhaps that was also aided by me being a southpaw.
13  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Development of an Ergonomic Euphonium on: Apr 26, 2017, 11:51AM
:/ I am still waiting to see somebody building a slidephonium....

Impossible! According to Robb Stewart at least:

This came to mind recently when a request was made for me to make a slide euphonium and I also discuss the impossibility of making a slide tuba on my contrabass trombone.
14  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Conn Bell/Bach Slide on: Apr 25, 2017, 12:06PM
Having gone down that route, I'd probably recommend trying to get a different leadpipe (and also perhaps making sure your slide is properly aligned and cleaned... doesn't take much to accumulate .012 of debris in a horn. You may be comparing a 'medium' bore to a bass bore  :-0 :-0 :-0 ). A SL6262 (Conn) slide might also be something to consider trying if you can find one. They come up for sale from time to time. Dillon had a whole bunch of Conn slides on sale not too long ago and perhaps might have another one. 
15  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Conn Bell/Bach Slide on: Apr 25, 2017, 11:16AM
I had kind of a similar Shires setup for a few months as my main horn.  It helps to have a smaller cup and tighter backbore as well as a tighter leadpipe.

In your case the tuning issues could be caused by length differences; that's one of the reason why 'franken horns' don't always work in my experience. 

There have been several threads on putting bass slides on tenor bells in the last few years, which you may find helpful reading.  I'm not unconvinced that the leadpipe in the Bach 50 is "easier" to play than the one in the 42; as such, I'm of the opinion that a contributing factor to it being a popular modification to Bach horns  was a difference in leadpipe taper. If you're comparing to an 88, you might find a similar correlation. 

If the leadpipe is one of those factors that makes it work 'better' for you, then you might find that swapping the leadpipe makes a similar positive benefit to the way it feels without unusual tuning tendencies.

Also: Do you mean you stuck a Bach 50 slide as-is on the Conn 88 bell or that you had the tenon on the slide swapped out for a Conn tenon so that at least it fits? That alone can cause intonation problesm if you have mismatched tenons.
16  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Accessories / Re: How long does it take to get a brassark leadpipe? on: Apr 24, 2017, 09:37AM
17  Creation and Performance / The Business of Music / Re: Typical pay for church Easter service on: Apr 21, 2017, 11:44AM
Yep, it is. I taught in Hundred for two years (1979-81),, and played a lot in Morgantown. It does get chilly there. I'm near Tampa Florida now, and I love wearing shorts and a T-Shirt all winter!

Jerry Walker


I've been in Morgantown for over a decade now.  On the bright side, its only been below zero for a few dozen days in that span of time  :-0
18  Teaching & Learning / Composition, Arranging and Theory / Re: Relative strengths and weaknesses of different music notation software programs on: Apr 21, 2017, 11:42AM
That makes sense. I know when I send PDFs out I'm not always satisfied with the result when it gets printed, but I've also published precisely 0 things. All of my arrangements are for groups I'm in, so there are as many different qualities of print job as there are people in the group I wrote it for.  :/ If I want it to look nice for posterity's sake, I'll print everything myself and get everything taped up myself too.

Off topic, although tangentially related:I think the future - to the extent live music still is played - someone will eventually build something that can be used to edit and display on the fly. SO to that extent, musescore or some other open source program may ultimately take over the market because of its 'free' (as in free speech) XML file type. I love playing stuff from my tablet over lugging around a box of music. But perhaps that's for another thread.
19  Creation and Performance / The Business of Music / Re: Typical pay for church Easter service on: Apr 21, 2017, 09:44AM
Heck, I'd drive down from WV for that price. Bet Christmas would be a little warmer in SC  :D
20  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Accessories / Re: Suggestions on trombone stands? on: Apr 21, 2017, 09:43AM
K&M 14990. 100%.  Mine got ran over and still works fine! Anybody wants to trade me their 14990 for Hercules or Hamilton stands, let me know. I've got several of those but only one 14990 and I'd like a few more!

Side note: the herclues ones that fit the slides don't work particularly well with the narrow Shires instruments.  (Presumably Conn 88 width too).  They have several "clicks" that determine how wide they are. Basicaly with that width, they are too wide to be fit on one setting but then not wide enough on the immediately narrower setting. You can get around it by making it too narrow and then putting the horn on it, then making it wider again. But not the most optimal solution.
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