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1097185 Posts in 72575 Topics- by 19547 Members - Latest Member: 19jspencer
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1  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / .485 leadpipe in a. 490 bore? on: May 09, 2013, 02:58PM
So I just got a great looking buescher 400 trombone. My problem is I just found out the leadpipe is very badly damaged. There are alot of good .485 leadpipes, but the horn is .490 bore and there arent very many that size. Anyone ever tried a .485 bore leadpipe like a shires one in a .490 bore slide?
2  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Mouthpieces / Re: 6 1/2 AL, 7C, 11C and 12C on: Feb 23, 2013, 10:11PM
I have thought for a while the bach 11 size doesn't get enough love. All the 11 and 11C bachs i have played have always make great sounds.

Greg sometime when you come by Dave's shop I should bring up my collection of small shank mouthpieces for you to take a look at. From lots of ebaying I have quiet a few very interesting pieces. My favorite at the moment is a nickel-silver german mouthpiece thats probably in the bach 11 neighborhood. I also just got some mucks and I have a york al-tru that plays great(no idea why I have never seen mention of them unless its super rare). I have an equa tru 28 which is great and some unmarked custom mouthpiece from I think the 30s that gets a very unique sound. I could practically go on forever.
3  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Mouthpieces / Re: One rim or many for doublers. My own odyssey. on: Feb 23, 2013, 09:32PM
I struggled with rim changes up until I was taught not to have a single conscious thought telling my face what to do. Just blow air and think about what I wanted to hear come out of the horn. Maybe I am weird, but I let my face tell me what size the rim should be for the horn. I am liking the laskey 93D on bass trombone, 5G on large tenor, 24.75mm is around what I like on small bore, 22.5mm is nice for alto, bach 3C for trumpet. I tried using a bass sized rim on my large bore tenor and I couldn't get the sound I wanted. It didn't get the sparkle the 5G gets and it completely overpowered the horn. I could pump a stupid amount of sound out of the horn, but there was some much edge it might as well be a lead horn. In an ensemble setting it would never work.... in marching band it makes for alot of fun.
4  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Mouthpieces / Re: Schilke 60 vs Doug Yeo shank dimensions... any insight? on: Feb 09, 2013, 07:45AM
I bought a 60 probably 7 or 8 years back. The shank is like half an inch too long to be ideal for any normal horn. I turned the shank down and cut it to normal specs and it played better. I liked the sound of it after it was cut, but honestly it took way too much effort to play. I also played a yeo from a few years. I recently bought a laskey 93d and wished i had got one years ago. It gets the huge mouthpiece sound, but for me atleast it doesnt feel like I am playing a vacuume.
5  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Buescher aristocrat on: Jan 23, 2013, 09:34PM
I found an old buescher catalog on horn u copia. So the buescher custom and 400 were their very top horns and the aristocrat was a "more economically" priced horn, but it still cost as much as a 2b at the time. That being said I have found the not all "intermediate" horns are bad. I have owned a olds special that played wonderfully to the point that it sold to the first customer that tried it. (It was picked out of about 8 horns)
6  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Repairs, Modifications and Maintenance / Re: Vintage slide rebuild on: Jan 22, 2013, 08:48PM
I am glad to say over a year and a half after I bought my silvertone and starting working on rebuilding my slide it is finally complete. The previous owner had literally played until there was a hole in the slide and now the horn is reborn with new stockings and new outer tubes. I could have gotten the entire inner slide chromed, but I for some reason have the crazy idea the plating would affect how the horn plays so i just had the new stockings chromed.

I have to say out of all the hundreds of trombones I have played few come close to playing like this horn. It is so responsive and plays so easy from ppp to fff. The .461/.481 bore slide gets the warmest most centered sound that I have ever played and while it is smaller than most other horns it tends to keep the edge off the sound more. Being a 6.5" bell the large bell throat seems to make up for the lack of flare. The horn produces a tone that just seems to carry and fill any room. I have a suspection that if the bell wasn't  silver the horn would be too bright, but the sterling bell seems to keep the tone a little darker than a 2b but very rich.
7  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Buescher aristocrat on: Jan 21, 2013, 07:12AM
Nope that ones not quite as nice. My friend plays sax but my research tells me the aristocrat sax was their pro sax for a while. I would think that if they used the name for a pro level horn they would keep it that way. Until selmer bought them of course.

If the trombone lines mimic the sax lines it looks like the true tone line became the aristocrat which became the 400. I could be wrong it seems hard to find much information on buescher.


8  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Buescher aristocrat on: Jan 20, 2013, 07:22PM
It isnt a student horn. I talked to a friend of mine who knows alot about buescher. The aristocrat was one of their top pro horns. The didnt become student line until selmer bought them later on.
9  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Buescher aristocrat on: Jan 20, 2013, 04:37PM
So i just bought a buescher aristocrat trombone off ebay. With a little research i found that the aristocrat line over time became a student line horn but the vintage of the one I just bought is around 1950 and the detailed bell engraving would imply it is in no way a student horn. I was told the aristocrat at one time was bueschers top of the line horn.

So anyone know anything about the old aristocrats?
10  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Mouthpieces / Re: Mouthpiece Test Trial on: Jan 20, 2013, 02:44AM
I work at a shop and happen to have a used 2cl lying around. Note this is my opinion and equipment is always person preferance in the end.

The 2cl from what I can tell is one of those mouthpieces like the 3g (only much worse in my opinion). For MOST people the rim is a little too large to be optimal for tenor plating. All V cups tend to be very free blowing and the 2cl has a stupid huge throat that is bigger than many bass trombone pieces. Add these two things together and you get a mouthpiece that takes a stupid amount of air to get the same volume as a average piece. To my knowledge Linberg does not play this mouthpiece and if he does I would think he wouldn't be using it on a tenor trombone. I am very sure he plays either the 4cl or 5cl

My advice would be get a 5G. It is very generic and works well for most people. You could probably find a used one fairly cheap. Sure in 10 years you will probably be playing a different mouthpiece, but the best place to start a mouthpiece search is on the most standard piece. Unless you are like 7 feet tall and have a massive jaw structure and huge lungs the 2cl probably will only get in your way and slow down your progress.
11  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Partial tuning and overtones on: Sep 18, 2012, 10:21PM
I don't know how rare it is, but has anyone else run across gear with funny partial tuning. I briefly owned a bach mtv 9 that actually made the partial with the f in the staff and the d above play in about the same spot as Bb. It did this to every horn I used it on and it made the most wonderful, colorful sound ever. Recently I have run across a square braced martin comittee that partial tunes the same way. It sounds so great and plays very well, sadly the mtv 9 sounded good but didn't work for me. I have just recently aquired a martin committee with square braces thats 2000 serial numbers lower with the same specs and everything. It plays well but not near as well as the first one I own. Its amazing how vastly different the "same" horn can be. (I probably just need to take it all apart and rebuild it. By swapping parts I found alot of the issue is in the tuning slide so the crook is probably sprung and soldered under pressure.)

Anyways has anyone else happened across any strange gear that completely breaks the laws of normal partial tuning? It seems to make the overtones come out with different tuning making for a very unique and colorful sound, or atleast the horn and mouthpiece seem to have done that for me.(note I did not own the particular horn and mouthpiece at the same time. I am scared to wonder how the partials would have tuned with them together.)
12  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Repairs, Modifications and Maintenance / Re: Bach 42B Custom work... on: Jun 22, 2012, 11:08PM
I have rebuilt a few horns in my little time as a tech including a 42. The 42 was a friends 42B he had a guy put a thayer on a few years back. It played ok, but he was looking at getting another horn so I said I would do what I could for his. (He loved the bell section immensely, but I didn't get to do anything to the leadpipe really because he didn't have the money at the time for parts)

I removed the brace from the valve section to the bell and from the valve section to the goose-neck. The brace from the valve section to the bell really didn't hurt the horn so bad, but once I removed the brace from the valve section to the goose-neck off the horn was a completely different beast. It opened it up immensely and to replace the lost physical stability I put in bracing similar to the shires bracing. The main problem with his horn though was his leadpipe was worn in and if the mouthpiece doesn't sit right it causes resistance.

Bottom line an old leadpipe alone can make the horn resistant. A quick fix for this is using a little teflon tape on your mouthpiece shank and trying a slight variety of depths to see what plays best. My friends horn was allowing the mouthpiece to sit about 2mm too far in the leadpipe. This alone makes or breaks a horn.

A closed wrap valve section in my opinion cannot be braced optimally so open wrap would be a good idea. I would go with bracing the valve tubing to the main brace across the main tuning slide outer tubes like a shires. Also I found on my Edwards bass I rebuilt that braces across the valve tubing(valve tubing to valve tubing) kill the response of the valve notes. Also too much overlapping tuning slide tubing on the valve hurts response and resonance. On my double trigger bass I cut the F valve tubing down much shorter. On a single valve the only reason to have all the extra length is if you plan I pulling it out far to play the single trigger B natural and I had no need for it on my bass.

Also Bach rotors and many others lose a large % of the bore size in the rotors. You might want to consider a Kanstul CR rotor which is a full bore rotor and you could get it with the open wrap cheaper than a Greenhoe.

I have also heard about turning Bach tuning slides into reverse tuning slides although I have not done this yet. I have a 42BO I bought not to long ago to tweak out, but with all the summer repair I haven't had time yet.

As for annealing a bell and stripping it I have some knowledge. The finish changes how a horn plays and if you strip it you will brighten the sound of the horn. Lacquer cuts down the higher overtones somewhat though I am not sure about the horns response. Silver plate darkens a horn compared to raw brass, but its brighter sounding than lacquer though silver plating slows down the horns response. If you play a silver plated horn every day you will never know, but if you have the same horn in lacquer it is very noticeable. Annealing is a different beast. I find annealing lowers the overtones giving a darker but rich sound and sometimes a tad bit more volume. Annealing is nice for it darkens the horn without killing overtones like adding mass does. I have my suspicions that annealing MIGHT make the horn a little less resistant, but I am not sure enough to say it will.

I hope this helps, but truthfully first I would start with the teflon tape. Its cheap an easy it will let you know if your leadpipe needs replacing(or if you just want to be cheap and tape your mouthpiece). The rest is up to you I just thought I would just give you an overview of alot of things to help you decide what to do. Horn modifications is truthfully a bunch of guess work. The more educated the guess the more likely for a desirable outcome.

Also, please note the same modifications that are the same, but on different horns vary on what they do. Alot of my modifications were guess and check. Unsoldering a brace then playing the horn allows you to see what it does. If you like it keep it off and you don't put it back on. I tried the cut valve tubing by using my Gb valve tubing on my F valve which fit if flexed a little. I liked it so I cut the F tubing.
13  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Repairs, Modifications and Maintenance / Vintage slide rebuild on: Mar 09, 2012, 08:49PM
I bought a 1932 king silvertone artist series trombone off ebay back in July. Its .461/.481 bore with a 6.5 inch bell. I love the sound of it and for the last few months have been playing the bell with a slide from a 70s king tempo. I have been looking for new outers for months and finaly have found some so now the rebuild begins.

They slide had been used to the point that the outers under the hand grip tubes had started to wear away and the outers had cracks in several places. Also the stockings measured half as thick on top as on bottom so they needed to go too. No one makes. 461 bore tenor slides so if i wanted to keep the horn playing close to the same i needed to revive the slide without changing what could be saved.

I bought some tubing to cut for stockings as seen in the second picture which fit over the bare inners nicely. Once i get my outers i can cut and lap the stockings to fit. Picture one is the old stockings unsoldered and off. Shires can make me the tubes i need i am just waiting on the price which will probably hurt. After i get the tubes i will cut the outers to fit and use the extra tubing to lap the stockings after latheing them to the right fit. Once the stockings are fit i will send them off to have them chrome plated and the outer slide will be send to be silver plated.

The last picture is of the old outer slides where the tube had worn away under the hand grib. Oddly enough the trombone doesnt seem to have any red rot but the previous owner sure played it until it wore out. I will post more pictures once i get my outer tubes.
14  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Mouthpieces / Re: Mt vernon 9 on: Feb 28, 2012, 09:40AM
JJ played an m21 which is a fairly deep mouthpiece. I play a .461/.481 silver tone with a 6.5 inch bell so the horn makes the sound shine so i dont need the mouthpiece to be bright.
15  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Mouthpieces / Re: Mt vernon 9 on: Feb 28, 2012, 04:47AM
So after playing on the mouthpiece some i realised the partial tuning is weird. Almost every mouthpiece i have played had similar partial tuning but the mtv 9 puts the f in staff in the same place as the Bb on top.
16  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Mouthpieces / Re: Mt vernon 9 on: Feb 23, 2012, 07:38PM
So i got the 9 in the mail today and compared it to several of my other mouthpieces. It has a very rich dark sound. It is more compact a sound than a 7 but it is a very warm sound. I like the rim flatness and it has a very round sound to it. It has a similar sound to the 11 but it has less brightness to it.

One thing to note is the inner rim diameter is very close to 25mm when it claims it should be 24.7.
17  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Mouthpieces / Re: Mt vernon 9 on: Feb 20, 2012, 08:18PM
It isnt even in the mail yet but I will let you know when I get it. If i decide not to keep it maybe you can buy it off me.
18  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Mouthpieces / Mt vernon 9 on: Feb 20, 2012, 10:05AM
I just won a bach mtv  9 off ebay.

So I could find much on the forum about the bach 9 so I was wondering what everyones opinion on them is. I have played a mtv 11 which is suposed to be a tiny bit smaller and i liked it. According to the bach info a 9 less than 1/10 of a mm smaller than a 7 and it has a deeper cup. The 11 i played was deeper than a 7 but had a warmer sound to it.
19  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Mouthpieces / Re: Warburton small shank mpcs on: Feb 09, 2012, 08:37PM
I tried some small shank warburton mouthpieces today and was impressed. They didnt have a one piece 7 that I could try but they had the whole set of 2 piece mouthpieces. After trying a few tops I found that the 12D suited me the best. After trying 6 different backbores I found the * mouthpieces work better for me and the T4* ended up winning. To put it in context I like the smallish rim deep mouthpieces. I played an equa-tru 28 for a while and was playing a M31 lately.

Honestly any multiple piece mouthpiece is a trade off. Either you cant have a bunch of enterchangable pieces to try because there are too many combinations or somethings have to stay common. A cup can be only made for one specifiic rim size and a backbore only for one specific throat size. If this isnt done they number of combinations is too high to stock all the parts to allow for trying out all the combinations and at that piece whats the point in the mouthpiece seperating? To tweek? You most likely have to blindly order the new piece.
20  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Mouthpieces / Re: Does Tuning "Margin of Error" Depend on the Mouthpiece? on: Jan 14, 2012, 05:00PM
I while back i found out that the throat shape afters the bendability and centering of the pitch. Some throats are cylindricle and stay the same size for a few mm. Some hit the choke point like an hour glass and are very short. To be honest i cant remember which one does what but the throat length affects the bendability of the pitch. I learned this messing around with warburton trumpet mouthpieces. Their regalur shanks and star shanks differ only in the throat.
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