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1083762 Posts in 71746 Topics- by 19136 Members - Latest Member: Weirdness28
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1  Practice Break / Religion / Re: God on: Oct 17, 2017, 08:36AM
Drastically changed the original post I wrote regarding the flat Earth idea.  Just not an idea that I find particularly relevant.  There are very few references to the actual shape of the Earth in the Bible, Revelations refers to the 4 corners of the Earth, and David makes similar references in the Psalms.  I think flat Earthers have to make a pretty big stretch to say that the flat Earth idea is supported by Scripture. Here is an article that talks about it fairly intelligently: https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/earth/does-bible-teach-earth-flat/ 
2  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Speedbar Triggers on: Oct 07, 2017, 07:44PM
That 611 is way over priced, I bought a 612 in better condition for 1/2 that price.  I like the roller paddles on the 612, the picture of the 611 looks like a slightly different setup.  I like the split paddles on the 612 with the roller set up the advantage is I don't have to use my index finger (which has a bit of trigger finger) to operate the second valve. The other thing you should be aware of is the second valve on the 612 is Eb and not a D which is the current standard, I believe this is the case on the 611 also (unless it comes with an optional d slide, which this one appears not too). 
3  Practice Break / Purely Politics / Re: Las Vegas shooting on: Oct 05, 2017, 03:00PM
How does this 'bump stock' work? I thought that you had to lean in on it hard to make it work. ??
Here is a pretty good explanation of how they work along with a video of a young women using one farther down the page.  Looks like any adult of average strength should be able to operate one.  https://lifehacker.com/what-is-a-bump-stock-and-why-is-it-so-dangerous-1819180018
4  Practice Break / Purely Politics / Re: Las Vegas shooting on: Oct 03, 2017, 09:18AM
There may not have been any real political, religious, or other reason for this nutjobs shooting up a crowd of innocent people.  Who can guess the motivation of someone sick enough to do something like this?  I'm a former hunter (I just haven't had the time or inclination to go anymore), and I enjoy plinking cans and doing a little target shooting.  I also keep a shotgun handy to defend my home.  All of these activities can be done with weapons with a smaller sized clip, or magazine.  We have to start somewhere with making this kind of mass shooting less lethal. I don't want to take guns away from people (unless they have a known mental defect, or a record as a violent offender), but maybe we could as a nation start will limiting the number of shots that a shooter can get off without reloading, or switching weapons.  At least it would slow down the shooter a little, and give someone an opportunity to act.  I've heard all of the slippery slope arguments that the gun lobbyists keep bringing up, and I'm really not worried that if they limit magazine and clip sizes that the next step is they are going to knock on my door and ask me to give them my shot gun, or my 22 semi-auto, etc.  I realize there are already a lot of these out there, but we have to start somewhere, lets stop producing and selling more.  The only real reason for having a 20 round clip on a gun is to kill a lot of people without reloading, so lets start there.       
5  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: "Easy" instruments on: Oct 03, 2017, 08:40AM
Every instrument has it's challenges to overcome.  Some are easier to learn to get a characteristic sound out of than others, but that advantage goes away quickly.  The easier an instrument is to play faster passages the more composers give it to do.  So in the long run all instruments are difficult to play at a high level.  I've pretty much tried all of the brass instruments, and play all the low brass regularly.  The only brass instrument I haven't been able to develop some level of proficiency on is the French horn.  I just can't deal with the tiny mouthpiece.  Even Tuba (whose music may look fairly easy compared to some of the other instruments) requires a great amount of air support, and articulation on the bigger mouthpiece is harder to do and a clean sound.  Bottom line once you get beyond the beginning levels all instruments require effort to get good.  Composers will push and challenge intruments to their limits, and write to their strengths.  To any trombonist out there that thinks Euphonium is easy listen to a good player play Phillip Spark's "Harlequin" or "Pantomime" solos written for Euphonium.  These are now considered standard repertoire for Euph soloists (they are also expected to do many of the Trumpet/cornet standards like "Carnival of Venice". 

6  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Accessories / Re: How do I best de-stink a bunch of music? on: Oct 02, 2017, 11:09AM
Not sure it will work with gas odor but I did have some sheet music that had a bad mildew odor, I sprinkled the music with baking soda and let it sit in a box, after a week I carefully cleaned off the baking soda with a brush and vacuum set on low. The mildew smell was gone.   
7  Teaching & Learning / Schools, Colleges and Conservatories / Re: Bass Trombonists with College Teaching Positions on: Sep 29, 2017, 06:28PM
Jeffrey Gray bass trombonist with the Rochester Philharmonic maintains Studios at Ithaca College in Ithaca NY and Roberts Wesleyan College in Rochester NY (he also teaches at the Eastman Community School of Music (not at the college level),
Mark Kellogg Principal Trombonist with the Rochester Philharmonic is the head of the Trombone and Euphonium Department at the Eastman School of Music. 
Larry Zalkind is associate professor of Trombone at Eastman School of Music. 
8  Practice Break / Purely Politics / Re: Disgraceful NFL on: Sep 29, 2017, 02:36PM
Ok, so serious question: Do you actually have any answers or real suggestions to the issues you pose, or is this simply second guessing?

You seem to have an interesting recollection of history... that MLK and his movement were popular - they weren't, just look at his constant arrests and attacks against him. Baby boomers helped it along - actually most of this happened as they were just kids, and it was their parents, not the boomers who were instrumental. That the era of jim crow type laws to restrict rights was won - see the number of adult blacks with felonies, and how many state limit felon voting rights. Even for existing laws such as drug law, see how unevenly they are executed.

Or even... you have a some group of reactionary people who get easily offended and make someone else's protest immediately a personal issue against themselves. And your focus is on how to placate people even you say are unlikely to be reached because of their own preconceived notions?

Ultimately... You can look through history and a few things for sure:
1) People will be upset. People will be offended. People will resist. Those in power/privilege(whites) have nothing to gain by giving up their advantages, nor will they do so readily or easily.  
2) No change will happen without effort.
3) No one has the answers, just ideas of how to try.

#2 & 3 simply means for better or worse... trying... is more likely to do some good then sitting back, second guessing, and not doing anything at all for fear of what might happen.
Bob, I never said the Civil Rights movement was widely popular it wasn't (you're putting words in my mouth), The baby boom generation starts in 1946, and the height of the Civil Rights movement was the Mid 60s, but it continued into the 70s putting some of the boomers in their late teens and early 20s, the civil rights movement got a lot of support from many younger whites (but I can say the majority of our parents were not fans at all) and you are right there were probably more people marching from the boomers parents generation than the boomers because of their early age (I stand corrected), but there were early boomers involved, and when I was in school in the 60s and 70s myself and most of my peers revered Dr. King and the work he did for civil rights.  I did suggest in a previous post that they could use their celebrity status in a less divisive manner to get there message across, but my suggestion of them  holding press conferences, organizing marches, etc. was shot down by the posters in the thread as being ineffective, so no I don't have additional suggestions!!   
9  Practice Break / Purely Politics / Re: Disgraceful NFL on: Sep 29, 2017, 11:11AM
Radar, I get where you're coming from--that as a practical matter, the protests might do more harm than good, even though you're not personally offended by them.

This is something I posted earlier, and you could probably answer it better than anyone else here:

Suppose the Kaepernick 'kneel' never happened. Instead, suppose one white player, who regarded Pat Tillman as a friend and mentor, knelt during the anthem as a humble tribute to his friends and to others who gave the ultimate sacrifice fighting under the flag. Suppose other players joined him in silent tribute to our fallen warriors.

Would vets still be offended?
I would suspect that there would be less outrage over a Pat Tillman tribute, than there was to Kaepernick's protest.  I think a tribute would be better received than a protest, but I do think there would still be some who are sticklers for protocol who would still bring up that kneeling during the Anthem wasn't appropriate and ask him to do it another time.  I see the hypocrisy of the two situations, and I also don't deny that there are a few out there whose opposition to the kneeling is racially motivated (whether consciously or sub-consciously).   
10  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Mouthpieces / Re: REMINGTON SMALL SHANK TENOR bone MP! on: Sep 29, 2017, 10:58AM
I had a small shank Remington and a while back I wasn't using it and traded it for some Tuba mouthpieces.  I started using the Large shank Remington on my 88H and now I'm wishing I hadn't gotten rid of the small shank Remington.  I hope you find one!!
11  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Mouthpieces / Re: Mouthpiece suggestion for jazz bass bone on: Sep 29, 2017, 10:52AM
Consulting with Doug is definately a good option.  Another mouthpiece you can try is the Doug Yeo model from Yamaha (I'm a Tuba doubler also and this ones works well for me).  They have a Doug Yeo Replica Model (which is identical to the original, without the gold plating on the rim and cup) which is very affordable.  You can get it on-line for under $70 new, and some of the on-line retailers have a return policy as well.  
12  Practice Break / Purely Politics / Re: Disgraceful NFL on: Sep 29, 2017, 09:37AM
OK, I see your point, and I'm going to make this my final post on the subject, since I've really been mostly playing devils advocate here because all of the one sidedness of the discussion was getting boring.  I just don't think the protesters are reaching the right people.  Look at the discussion here, you have a bunch of people who agree with them talking about the merits of what they are doing.  The only two dissenting opinions have been cut out of the discussion.  This form of protest has given many (mostly Trump supporters) the opportunity to ignore their message and wrap themselves in the flag.  What is the protestors desired outcome, who are they trying to reach, and are they making progress towards their goals?  Yes to some degree they are opening up discussion and discourse, but are the right people talking about it.  The main objective of the Civil Rights movement was to strike down the Jim Crow laws in the south.  They accomplished that goal (with the help of a lot of sympathetic white Baby Boomers, my peers), now we have a different battle to win.  We did the easy part we got the unfair laws abolished, separate but equal is no longer legal.  Now we have the laws and the fight is to change attitudes, will the same tactics that worked then work now?  Maybe they will maybe they won't.  In one of my previous posts I had offered alternatives (you can go back and find it if you look) and those alternatives were all summarily dismissed.  I'm not anti-kneeler I just suspect that the people who need to hear their message the most aren't getting it because of the form of the protest.  Maybe they would just not get it regardless of how the protest was done.  My main point in all of this was really not to attack those kneeling in protest, but to get us thinking about should we be doing something else that might be more productive and reach the people who need to hear the message the most.  I really don't know what the solution is, I'm only one individual with limited resources what we need to build is consensus and solidarity behind the cause, are we doing that?  Are we leaving out some allies in the fight who honestly feel that the kneeling protest is offensive in it's form?  If all we're going to do is talk amongst ourselves about how bad things are and not include those who disagree in the discussion are we going to get anywhere?
13  Practice Break / Purely Politics / Re: Disgraceful NFL on: Sep 29, 2017, 07:14AM
Almost, but you're still missing some.

If the veterans you talk about take offense to the protest methods and do so publically or meaningfully, they are involving themselves. They are part of the discussion, as you illustrate by bringing up these offended folks on their behalf.

But being involved is a tricky thing. Either you try to help the conversation, or at best you dilute or distract from it. If your veteran friends get involved simply to give a gut protest that they feel their service is being disrespected and that's it... Then they absolutely deserved to be labelled as the issue they are being. And if they side with the racists against the protests and happen to get labelled as such, as you say "the outcry against them by many should have been expected". Maybe they say they aren't, but someone who's gut reaction is to dishonor their own service while holding it up to demand respect... that person isn't exactly showing their are reliable or trustworthy.

As Kaep initially stated directly to a vet that publically wrote him when this all started, it is not about veterans or their service nor did he mean to insult or belittle them or their efforts.

If you are empathetic but you or they don't know what to do, first, do no harm...
Bob, I've actually been stuck home sick the past couple days and have had too much time on my hands, so excuse me if I come across as being overly argumentative.  I'm personally not offended by the protests, but I do know veterans that are so I was just trying to represent their views in what seemed like a very one sided discussion.  I know these veterans for the most part to be decent people who do their best to treat everyone equally.  I understand the do no harm part of the equation you are getting at.  I get where your coming from, and I do see all of your points.  I'm not trying to diminish their message in any way. but my question is and has been (which I don't think you've addressed) are the protesters hurting their own cause by using a means of protest that people react so negatively to?        
14  Practice Break / Purely Politics / Re: Disgraceful NFL on: Sep 29, 2017, 06:31AM
Bob, I see your point regarding not offering any alternatives.  Honestly I don't know what the alternative should be, If I had one I would offer it.  The laws are on the books that we're all supposed to be equal, but the problem now is changing peoples attitudes and long held prejudices.  Changing peoples minds isn't as easy as putting laws on the books.  If you are trying to get people not to hate what's the best way to do that?  Do we get people not to hate by attacking what they love?  I wish I had some answers, I'm just not that smart, and I realize it.  
15  Practice Break / Purely Politics / Re: A Generation of Sociopaths: How the Baby Boomers Betrayed America on: Sep 29, 2017, 06:09AM
To quote the article:
"One of the key indicators for sociopathy is a lack of empathy. So you just don't care for people other than yourselves. So in the case of Social Security, the Social Security Administration projects the trust fund will be depleted in 2034, but by 2034 the median boomer will be dead. And the same sort of dynamic applies to the national debt, which will reach crisis levels in next 20 years. And the same logic applies to or lack thereof applies to climate, which is a problem whose most significant impacts are expected from the late 2030s on, but any cost of remediation must be borne today and would therefore imperil the entitlements budget. So, they're deeply focused on maximizing consumption now without regard to problems that are going to be postmortem."

The key problem isn't social security itself, but rather then years of intentionally siphoning from the social security funds (in good times) to pay for other things, and now that it's due to come under heavy load... refusing to fund it at sustainable levels. Baby boomers disproportionally make up the republican party. Their solution? Tell people, who've been paying into the system for sometimes 30 years themselves and who also have no pension only 401ks (which are a joke)... yeah, you don't get this perk. And end the program for anyone under 55. Aka anyone younger than boomers. So boomers should continue to fund your mother and anyone else on it or close, but we can't raise revenue to provide for them to get it themselves when it comes it.

In a very similar way, look at the GOP tax plan currently. We have incredible amounts of debt, we are in about the best we can expect for growth, but the current tax proposal looks to grow the debt and deficit even more when it should be paying off our debt and sustaining governmental funding.
Sadly, it looks like before boomers officially retire and let things go, their boomer president and boomer congress wants to take away healthcare for tax cuts for the rich, gut governmental programs now for more tax cuts, end social security for their children, and make as much money at the sake of the environment before they pass on.
I totally agree with you about the problems with social security and how it got that way.  I was asking you and others (there was a question at the end of my statement) "What should do we do now?"  How do we fix it without throwing old ladies out on the street?  I have my opinions: I would say raise the income cap and make those that earn more pay more in, then something we should have done from day one invest the overage for future use.  The Republicans (which I am not one) refuse to do anything that will cost them and their rich friends more money.  We don't disagree on this as much as you think.  I'm hoping the Republicans tax plan, as well as their health care plans continue to get shut down.  Not all of us Baby boomers are right wing Republicans that only care about themselves, many of us our liberal Democrats, or non-party affiliated or somewhere in between.  That's the problem I have with the article (and the author admits it also) is they paint our whole generation with one big broad brush, and classify us all the same.  I personally would gladly pay more taxes if it meant we would get things like Universal Health Care, Better education for our children, and affordable college for young adults.  Not all of us are heartless and only care about ourselves.  Many of us are doing our best to help others, we volunteer, we give to charity, etc.  Don't judge us by our age or some arbitrary category we happen to fall into based on our birthday.  I also agree with you that the next generation is getting a raw deal in regards to employment opportunities, pensions, etc.  These issues are also effecting my generation, the advantage you have is you know it's coming and can save for retirement, we have to be mindful that whatever solutions we come up with also take care of those who thought they had a pension coming and now don't.  How many baby boomers are out of work right now (Have you ever tried to find a job when you're in your 50s or early 60s) or are living at or below the poverty line.  Many of these issues effect people of all generations.  The administration wants to see us divided and fighting among ourselves, and pointing fingers at each other.  If we all got together we could throw them out, and replace them. My point is lets stop pointing fingers and start coming up with solutions!!   
16  Practice Break / Purely Politics / Re: Disgraceful NFL on: Sep 29, 2017, 05:21AM
Oh, I understanding. You miss the difference of understanding and validating.


They find it offensive because it's not about the service, but the person himself. They disrespect their own service with their attempts to hold it up as an excuse to limit the very freedoms they fought for. If they can't respect their own service, then I won't respect it when they try to wrap themselves in it for their own purposes. And at that point, you basically have just another crotchety old person yelling "I don't care about you! I don't care about your cause! I don't care about your rights! Now shut up and entertain me! This is about me not you!" I simply don't think it's fitting to validate the opinion of a person who with their own words doesn't concern themselves with the country or our freedoms or other people if they an inconvenienced or the smallest bit offended.

Thankfully, of the decent number of veterans I know, this opinion is quite the minority stake.
When they espouse their viewpoint as an attempt to shut down those who espouse viewpoints they don't like? Nope. Especially when considering the issue, that very offense means they are quite likely part of the problem. Respect flows both ways, or not at all.

Well I'm a retired veteran myself, and I'm in contact with many other veterans on a daily basis, what I'm hearing most of them say is we understand and agree with the cause, but we don't like them disrespecting the flag to get their message across.  Not all of the veterans I'm in contact with are old guys like me either.  I also know many that are currently serving (including my son who has done multiple tours in Iraq and Afghanistan) who also feels the same.  Not liking the form of the protest isn't the same as not having empathy for and agreeing with the cause.  You assume that because people dislike the form of the protest that they disagree with and don't get the message, most of them do.  When the civil rights movement was going on many of MLKs supporters didn't agree with the Black Panthers because of the militant/violent nature of their protest (and no I'm not comparing the Kneelers to the Panther movement), same message different ideas on how to deliver it.  There are multiple ways to deliver a message and get people talking about it, some people in this current situation don't like the delivery that doesn't mean they reject the message. You seem to have an all or nothing attitude regarding this, if they reject the form of the protest they must reject the message and that isn't the case.  You are trying to dictate how people should feel about the flag and country, and you're assuming if they feel that way about flag and country they must be on the other side regarding the race issues as well.  I saying that the two issues can and should be separate.  You can use the flag to protest, that's been established as your right and I support your right to do so, just don't tell people they have to agree with the protest method just because they agree with the message.
17  Practice Break / Purely Politics / Re: A Generation of Sociopaths: How the Baby Boomers Betrayed America on: Sep 28, 2017, 04:58PM
I did read the article linked, and the redeeming point of the article and the author is that he admits that he is making generalizations about boomers as a generation and not individuals.  I would really have to read the book to have an opinion on how much he got right and how much he didn't.  I would tend to think that there are more boomers who grew up and came of age in the 60s who don't fit this generalization than do, but those that have been in positions of political power, and at the helm of our fortune 500 companies have had too much unfettered power and influence and we the majority allowed it.  Regarding us lagging in technical development: it was boomers like Bill Gates and the late Steve Jobs who made this medium that we are using to communicate on now.  What would you have us do with social security?  My mother (not a boomer) only has social security to live on after the company her husband worked for went bankrupt and took away her survivor benefits pension.  She is barely getting by on social security now.  People in my parents generation relied on a combination of employer and government pensions, now the employee pensions are going away, would it not be selfish of us to reduce the social security benefits they paid into at this time?  I don't think it's selfish of people who were made promises of a secure future, and who had money mandatorily taken from their paychecks to fund it to now get what they were promised. Of course in my mother's case we could take her social security away and she would wind up on welfare so how would that solve anything?  Could we as a group have done better for the environment, no doubt we could have.  Yes as a boomer at the end of the generation (born in 1960) I can see why we as a generation can historically get a bad report card in a lot of areas. I can also see where we excelled (the tech boom is one of those areas, yes we aren't going to the moon anymore but do we really need to?).  I would bet that a lot of the clean energy that is being developed today is being done by and under the supervision of Baby boomer engineers.  It's easy for millennials to sit back and throw stones and to some extent they have some valid points, but keep in mind when I was growing up we had all the good intentions in the world too, and were critical of our parents generation, we were going to end racism, and poverty, and save the world.  I hope that millennials can do a better job than we did, and that they can save the world, my advice to millennials look to our mistakes so you don't repeat them, but stop the blame game and start working on the solutions so that history is more kind to you in the grand scheme of things.  Most of us boomers are retired or getting ready to retire so tag your it, lets see what you can do with it!!
18  Practice Break / Purely Politics / Re: Disgraceful NFL on: Sep 28, 2017, 03:40PM
I am still stuck wondering...

This "controversy" is over a few people choosing to use one constitutional right to point out where we as a country have failed another constitutional right. People claim offense in the name of patriotism, but it is not patriotic in any sense to attack people for using their basic rights. Only a selfish, "I don't like you talking about about MY country" as if they aren't part of it too. Like saying to your sibling, "you can't talk about my mother like that! Only I can talk about my mother like that!"

But in the name of patriotism, they hold up the nation, the military, and national symbols. And I know that supports the political views of many holding them up. But doesn't that seem incredibly hollow? The country is one or both of two things: the people and/or the government. The military is a necessary evil to protect and preserve the country from attack. In this instance, they attack the people for using rights held fast under the government to protest other rights the government should also hold fast but doesn't, and they do so because any attack on the nation is an attack on those that "lay their lives down for it"(despite the military having a lower casualty and disability rate than a decent number of civilian occupations). If they can't support fundamental rights of the people, then what are they even defending against?

I'm stuck wondering why people can't understand why some people especially veterans find it offensive when people disrespect the flag.  Yes you can find some open minded veterans who are not offended and very supportive of the protest, and for every one of those you will find just as many that are upset by it. Veterans are a diverse group of people just like the rest of America.  They represent all political parties, all religions, and all ethnicities, and will have diverse opinions on issues.  Like I've said before it's an emotional issue, and this particular form of protest is going to evoke many emotions.  If it didn't upset people would they be using this form of protest, and would it be as effective?  Yes racism upsets me,  unjustified shootings upset me, the presidents stupid comments upset me, but although I support their right to protest in this manner people can also be saddened and regret their chosen method to deliver their message.  Not every issue is black and white, you can support their cause without liking how they go about presenting it.  There is freedom of thought and freedom of speech, but some of you only want to hear and validate opinions that are the same as yours.  Don't those who have an emotional attachment to the flag that symbolizes the country they fought for have the right to state that they are upset without being branded racist, or being labeled as part of the problem.  If you truly believe in freedom of thought an expression then you should be more tolerant of the rights of others to express their views (I'm not referring to hate speech here), as much they have to be of yours.  People who are opposed to the kneeling during the anthem have just as much a right to express that, as those who choose to kneel.     
19  Practice Break / Purely Politics / Re: Disgraceful NFL on: Sep 27, 2017, 08:11AM
There are lots of alternatives they could use other than kneeling during the anthem if they got creative.  These athletes have access to the media that the rest of us don't get.  They could more easily and clearly get there point across in an interview.  They also have hugh fan bases that follow them on social media.  They could use there  celebrity to organize marches, fundraisers, etc.  Kneeling is an easy way to get attention, but is it really conveying their message to the people they are trying to influence?
20  Practice Break / Purely Politics / Re: Disgraceful NFL on: Sep 27, 2017, 05:27AM
I think many of you have missed my point, I never said they didn't have the right to protest in this way, and I defend their right to do so, I also actually agree with their cause.  Martin Luther King Jr. and his followers in their protests expected to be beaten and jailed for their cause.  They knew the short term outcome of their actions.  My point in all this discussion isn't that they are wrong in their actions, but that the outcry against them by many should have been expected.  Many people especially many veterans find disrespect for the flag offensive (go to any American Legion Post, or VFW post prior to a game and listen to the comments after the anthem when this happens).  By the way when the Anthem comes on at a Legion Post or VFW post everything stops, and those who are able come to attention. My point is that many veterans are offended by these protests (I'm not particularly one of them) and I think you're going to have a hard time convincing them that it's OK because it's for a good reason.  I'm only saying that those that are protesting in this manner should be ready for the consequences of their actions (which is they are going to alienate many, who may start boycotting them), just as MLK was ready to go to jail for his cause.  We've had a lot of deep conversation about why veterans shouldn't be offended and from an intellectual standpoint I can agree with you.  When it comes to our Country and the symbols that represent these are emotional issues for many (especially a lot of veterans) and they aren't analyzing it that deeply.  The fact that they are offended by disrespect for the flag or the anthem despite the reason for the protest doesn't necessarily make them racists either (although some may be).  If you go to other social media sites like facebook what are you seeing?  I'm not seeing the level of discussion and consensus building I'm seeing here, I'm seeing a lot of people complaining about crybaby rich people, who are attacking the country that made them rich.  I don't agree with this sentiment, and I've actually defended their right to protest on social media.  My point here is to say that this particular form of protest may not be that effective and could be divisive and may alienate some people who actually agree with their cause. There is a lot of I can't see why people especially veterans find this protest offensive, I'm just trying to explain that I do understand why many veterans find it offensive (and I know more that do than that don't).  Most of these people who find disrespect for the anthem offensive are not particularly racist either, they just have a deep emotional attachment to their country and the flag that represents it.     
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