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1096826 Posts in 72546 Topics- by 19541 Members - Latest Member: Zorgnot
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1  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Repairs, Modifications and Maintenance / Re: Types of spit valves and benefits on: Jan 02, 2018, 09:44PM
Saturn Keys are convenient and good if you are in usual stationary trombone playing position, playing in orchestra or big band.  But if youíre moving around on a brass band or marching band gig a lot, the ball inside may not be as secure or the key itself will loosen up. You can tighten it by hand back into place.   Iíve had Saturns on three different slides, from copies to the original maker, plastic rings and metal rings, and they always break on me, get loosened up, or get caught on a clip on microphone wiring. The Original Saturn Key worked best, but Iíve still had a leaky slide and water coming out when Iím not pressing it. But thatís the kind of work I do. Amados seem too small for trombones, I had one to replace a broken BAC Saturnu temporarily, it worked a bit, but felt like I was emptying it out all the time because it wasnít getting enough moisture out.

I like the old water keys the best, preferably with a short press key like the Bach or Conn. those can get caught up in wires too, but donít leak on me at all if corked correctly and if something goes wrong on a gig can be easily fixed with tape or gum ;-)...pull off the slide to empty it.
2  Creation and Performance / Music, Concerts and Recordings / Re: CMA country Christmas 2017 on: Dec 23, 2017, 06:35PM
I played trombone with Lady Antebellum on This Christmas.  In the main band it was Barry. Thought he played a Shires horn but couldíve been an XO, especially if heís a Jupiter artist. That band was smoking, but for cost reasons had to pre-record the entire show in the studio and then mime their parts on stage. Did a pretty great job, band tracks were smokin!
3  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Mouthpieces / Re: AR Resonance Mouthpieces on: Dec 16, 2017, 12:10PM
Just want to update quickly:

Loved my original top, but the rim was a little too small for my lips. I ordered one from Luke with a slightly larger rim, same cup size, itís right on the money. 10.5-46 backbore still.

Amazing mouthpiece. Still my go-to, and makes every horn I own sound even better and easier to play.
Sold the original top to a trombonist in California and he is enjoying it very much on his Bach 36B. Game changer.

Sidebar: I think I know half a dozen trombonists, including myself, playing on lawler .500 bores with AR mouthpieces. Amazing modern trombone combination. These pieces also really bring zip and new energy to Williams trombones. Works so well with my Williams Model 7...vintage and modern synergy, I call it.

Bravo Antonio!!

-RJM
4  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Really heavy trombones and lighter alternatives on: Dec 07, 2017, 10:49PM
A lot of BAC heavy horn, bracing designs, are based around a trombonist sitting in a chair, who rests the trombone bell on their shoulder.  If you are standing up a lot to gig or practice, or tend to hold the horn in a way that doesnít rest the bell on your shoulder, and donít go to the gym regularly (honestly), youíll feel discomfort over long periods of time.  In the case of a Christmas bones, yíall were probably standing up holding your horns and playing them for a couple hours...thatíll do it.

The EM horns also have very light slides.  Built to Elliotís specs...he played a really heavy Taylor bell with sheet brass before this. And his slide is heavier than what BAC can offer as an option for their EM model.  In this case, the balance might be even more skewed if you get a super lightweight slide and a heavy bronze bell. They are really great horns though if you can overcome these specs. I couldnít deal with a lightweight slide and bass trombone weight bronze bell with bracings and weights, buf this is what Elliot prefers!!

Iíd look into the leather straps trombonists use to held distribute the weight in their hands and arm better. I know the horn should have a comfortable thumb grip that is adjustable but your friend might need more support than that.

Your friend could also talk to BAC about trading in his EM model, and having the Bell flare mounted to his lighter Paseo model Bell section and keep the slide the same.
5  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Bach/Conn Frankenbone on: Dec 06, 2017, 09:04PM
It will probably be easier to find a complete 16M in good condition than just the slide. The 16M has the more open ďMĒ gooseneck. I donít know he specs on the Conn bell (even though I own a 6H), but unless the gooseneck taper increases in Bore it may be weird to blow through a .508 Bach slide and then hit a smaller Conn taper in the neck pipe...or it might work just fine for you!
6  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Bach/Conn Frankenbone on: Dec 06, 2017, 09:25AM
 Buying a slide or horn from the 70s-80s should be quality and affordable.  If you can try the slide first that would be preferred, not all Bachís are assembled equally.  However, NY Bach 6s are pretty cheap on eBay these days. A Bach 6 .485 Bore may work but might be weird if itís a conn 6H 8 inch bell.

Sidebar: speaking of Frankenbones...

Does anyone have experience putting a Conn or any non King .500 bore slide on a King 3B Bell????
7  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Should I sell my King 2B or Olds Studio? on: Nov 27, 2017, 11:20AM
Iíve sold horns I enjoyed when I was cleaning and/or needed the money really bad to pay rent, and then regretted it a few years later. If you arenít short in cash and have the room for them, just hold onto them both. That being said 2Bís and studios arenít too hard to come by on eBay for pretty cheap. Personally I think the 2B is a more versatile horn than the Studios Iíve tried (was always interested in the design of them), so might be worth it to hold onto your beloved horns little sibling, just in case. My two cents...
8  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Lawler question on: Oct 29, 2017, 07:50PM
Heís first working on perfecting the new .525 slide design and then will finish the F attachment specs in 2018. There will be a .525F and a .500, .508, .500/.508 F concept too. Sheriff will try the .525 and I the small bore. On our AR resonance mouthpieces *wink*?

Will keep yíall posted.
9  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Bach 40B on: Oct 03, 2017, 06:14PM
Josh we will have to have another trombone testing session like when we did the Rath/Shires hang a few years back.

I acquired a Bach 30 recently, which is .514/.525 with an 8 inch Bell made on the same 451 Bell mandrel the 40 may have been made on. Only accepts bass trombone mutes.

Beautiful horns, rare beauties....
10  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Raw brass 36B closed wrap tone! on: Sep 28, 2017, 03:06PM
My Bach LT36BG is from the 80's the lacquer was coming off bad so I had it stripped, satin finish. A year later my old repairman took a blow torch to it and made an art design on it...and then two years later had that process removed and kept raw brass by Josh landress. Maybe it was all the random treatments to it but it's my favorite Bell to play on period. Looks like it's been to hell and back but outplays everything else. Those horns are something else, especially when you take that lacquer off!!
11  Creation and Performance / Other Musicians and Ensembles / Re: Bari Sax cadenza... on: Sep 13, 2017, 07:42PM
Leo doesn't play in Chops anymore, just Too Many Zooz. They all went to Manhattan School of Music for jazz with scholarships and met there while a bunch of Lucky Chops met at LaGuardia School of the Arts in High school.
12  Creation and Performance / Other Musicians and Ensembles / Re: Bari Sax cadenza... on: Sep 13, 2017, 07:27PM
While dudes like mr pillow cozzagiorgi can worry about "legit" or "commercial" playing Leo can continue to outplay anyone in all styles on Bari and Clarinet!! while expressing himself and playing on records with Beyoncť. Way more than schtick when you're making real money and actually entertaining people. Enjoy the practice room guys.
13  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: LEAD TROMBONE //SPECS//NEEDS /DESIRES/ATTEMPTS on: Sep 04, 2017, 10:02AM
Yeah Sam, love your insight!

In NYC I've done big band gigs where the lead guy is on a 3B+, 2nd on a Rath R4, I'm on a 36BG in the tenors.  I've also done Big Band hits with the more normal King 2B Bach 12 players and I'm on a 3B.

Most people will have a gig before or after a big band hit and take the trombone that can cover the most jobs in a given day.  Common conceptions about "blending with the right horn" are thrown out the window.  Silver Sonics paired with Martin Committees paired with Elliot Mason BAC models, and the sections still sound amazing!

Getting the right tool for the job makes all of that work easier, but the players are getting so good that once they have the Lead Trombone sound truly internalized in their brain they can access it on any instrument.

My personal experience, I have played a Hammond 13M on a 3B for a few years--definitely suffered from the King 3B 6.5 size MPC struggles to sound good when I first moved to NYC--but now I have switched to this new AR Resonance mouthpiece and I have gotten the most compliments playing my old Wayne Andre owned Conn 6H.  There are a lot of warm overtones in that bell and people who don't play trombone in the audience or on the bandstand can hear the difference and appreciate it.

I don't think you can go wrong with a nice vintage Conn bell (24H, 6H) or an excellent old 2B Liberty for lead trombone playing.
14  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Mouthpieces / Re: AR Resonance Mouthpieces on: Aug 24, 2017, 11:21AM
Hey Forum,

I wanted to offer a review of the AR mouthpiece I just purchased from Luke. He mailed it to me two weeks ago with three different backbones (shanks) to try. I was previously using a hammond 13M since 2010. Another great mouthpiece.

My cup and rim size are similar to the Bach 6.5 size. This mouthpiece gave me a lot more core in the sound. Everything felt more stable and consistent. I tend to play vintage horns or tinker with parts because I like unique characteristics in my horns, but was looking for a component that could give me a uniformity in sound and an ease of playing across all registers without adjusting my face too much, and this piece has done it.

It also isn't as unforgiving as a Monette piece is...I enjoyed a Prana piece briefly but in live situations where I was pushing and playing incredibly loud it would back up on me and punish me for playing it differently than the "Dave Monette approach". This piece encourages good habits without punishing you for bad ones. It feels comfortable on the lips and has a nice weight to it. Heavier than my old Hammond but I like the stability that provides.

Luke also sent me three different screw on backbore shanks to try. Labeled 40, 43, and 46. They definitely make a difference in how the overtones sound--40 makes them sound closer together and very punchy, and 46 the overtones are spread out and broaden up the sound, 43 was right in the middle. There are also different resistances levels. Mine is one of the most open.

It may sound confusing but Luke is a pro trombonist with a lot of knowledge of musical situations and gear, so if you describe which horns you play on, which size and type mouthpiece you currently play, and the styles of music you want to use this piece on, he will steer you in the right direction.

Out of the backbores he sent I picked the 46--I like a broader tone especially on my .500 horns since I play pretty loud and punchy already.

The mouthpiece is also satin silver and looks beautiful! For the first time ever on a show, an audience member pointed to me and yelled "I want your mouthpiece!!" Haha. So if you're looking for a statement piece this can be it.

I'm hoping to try the Symphonic pieces at some point since I feel these mouthpieces can provide the attributes Symphonic players strive for in their approach.

Feel free to ask me any other questions I'll keep you posted!

-Ray
15  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Butler Carbon Fiber Slide on: Jul 30, 2017, 07:06PM
arrowhead, I think you tried a different horn Wayne owned. I bought this older 6H Wayne played from Josh Landress in June 2016. The slide is regular factory weight from the 60s--bell is from late 40s.  The Butler slide is 1/8th the weight of the regular weight Conn slides. I'd rather keep the original slide in factory condition and have my Butler slide for the gigs I do--touring with pop singers moving around a lot on stage.
16  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: BAC Bass for $9000??? on: Jul 27, 2017, 04:13PM
I think we are close to putting this thread aside, basically has been said that needs to be said. Everyone can have their own opinions.

Ron Wilkins is one of the best trombonists on the planet with numerous positions in our Armed Forces as well as in symphonies, the Count Basie orchestra, Dizzy Big Band, and multiple Broadway Shows. Show some respect. I have no idea who you are sir. And also while there are many professionals on here that post there are many hobbyists or part timers who may benefit from getting the inside scoop.

Ron cares some much about the instrument and the art form and also believed a lot of what Mike told him for years...Mikey is good like that at convincing you it's gonna get better and you want to believe in his passion! And trust me I want people to succeed in our business no matter if I like their products or not.

But many promises were made, precedents were set, and then left unfulfilled.

Didn't work out for me either and that's fine. Becca is being quite passionate but also caught some potentially shady behavior. People can take it how they will, but I feel that she is looking out for the trombone community and holding manufacturers to a higher standard and I applaud that as a consumer on the constant Horn Quest.

If you want a brand new Bass trombone I suggest you skip BAC for a few more years until they finalize the design and make large bore instruments that can appeal to the needs of the modern freelance trombonist. But I can only suggest how to spend anyone's money---if the horns work for you that's wonderful!!!

Peace and love y'all.
17  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: BAC Bass for $9000??? on: Jul 27, 2017, 09:29AM
I just want to end by saying: Why do I care so much?

Because I don't want any more people to sink $6-7K into trombones that consistently break on your freelancing gigs mid session without proper support to get them fixed. My schedule is too busy to ship a horn to Kansas City every two months to fix a new problem.

This is my livelihood. If you're a hobbyist, enjoy a shiny unique horn. But every day my horn doesn't do what I need it to do that hurts my bottom line.

Ultimately I hope everyone can find a horn that they love that allows them to express their individuality and musicality. BAC, Rath, edwards, Yamaha, Wessex, anything! That's what it's all about!


18  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: BAC Bass for $9000??? on: Jul 27, 2017, 09:21AM
I had been trying to work with Mike for four years. I've moved on.

 He's always "in the protyping" stages, and promises that "the next batch of instruments are going to be made better". Or "I was working on deals in china for our marching band instruments while someone else finished the horns. He didn't have a strong sense of craftsmanship. But now I make them all by hand."

The Elliot Mason slide BROKE during NAMM 2016. The horns cost more than Shires--buy a Shires and get Don Sawday in LA to do a custom lacquer job.

Or go buy a Lawler for $2600 with two flares and a case.

It's the same song and dance--sometimes he strikes Gold with a brilliant horn. Most times they are duds. 8/10 pros that use his hornsjust go back to their originals for most gigs and studio work. Just rock them on TV when it doesn't really matter.

I wonder if guys said this about Vincent Bach 80 years ago haha.

eBay Buyers Beware. Go to KC and pick out a horn yourself. I hope that you find yourself with a gem! And after 10 years the prototyping is FINALLLY done....

I know I'm not El or Jim Pugh (Steely Dan's MD told me on a Netflix session that my Bach sounds way better than my BAC and to switch back to it mid session.....) and y'all don't know me, but if you think mike is going to pay attention to your horn just as much as their horns, you'll be sadly mistaken.
19  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: BAC Bass for $9000??? on: Jul 26, 2017, 08:56AM
BAC makes great horns, but not all the time. I have colleagues that have had great exchanges and experiences with them.

I never really have as I end up having to bring every horn made there I've owned (3 trombones) to a pro in NYC to make them actually playable in a freelance world. If you only play a little bit or only have one gig with a pop group (I play with five-seven groups in a given year) then maybe the horns would've worked out. But they would literally fall apart in my hands on a gig. All three horns.

So maybe I just got unlucky...three times...but 2 + 3 times I was a BAC Artist.

If they made the same trombone for me that they made for my friend Evan Oberla than I'd still be on the train, that is a beast of a horn evan owns.

My modified 3B has an amazing Williams rotor and the trigger section sounds great--some of Mike's best work---but the horn is heavier than a double valve bass and the lacquer is so caked on the bell the sound is deadened while the lacquer on the slide started peeling off after two weeks....

I'm sorry Full pedal Bone that you're so upset but I always speak my mind and this is based on my real life experiences as a professional trombonist in the US working on some of the highest stake gigs--perfection is required and I can't be afraid my horn is going to fall apart while I'm playing the Daytona 500 with lady antebellum or iHeart Radio Festival with Taylor Swift.

Back to the Bass trombone--I don't think that horn is worth more than $4K and I think $2500 is fair. that Olsen valve looks nice!

-RJM
20  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: BAC Bass for $9000??? on: Jul 25, 2017, 07:43PM
If you pay more and pay the full amount upfront you'll get a horn in 3 weeks.

If you're an artist that Mike made a crap horn for you and he offers to make another for free because he feels bad it'll take Five Months. And then be too heavy to hold for more than 25 minutes.

The horns are priced in line with Shires and Rath but you'll be lucky if they're the same quality.

So a Shires cost Bass trombone with extra dough for speedy delivery and looking cool guy...

Pretty much makes sense...sad.

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