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1072766 Posts in 71158 Topics- by 18855 Members - Latest Member: Disco
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1  Creation and Performance / Other Musicians and Ensembles / Re: Best no-high-note big bands? on: Yesterday at 01:11 PM
IIRC, Don Ellis didn't go in for a lot of high-range stuff. His later "bands" were pretty unique as far as instrumentation, too:

4 saxes (aatb, with LOTS of doubles)
4 trumpets (3 + Don Ellis himself)
French horn
tenor trombone
bass trombone
tuba
2 violins
viola
cello
electric bass
acoustic bass (not a double with electric bass)
keyboard
4 percussion/drums (2 set drummers, percussion/tympani, congas/bongos)
2  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Trombonium, tenor horn, or baritone horn? on: Jul 20, 2017, 07:36AM
It's like bass trombone players sticking with single valve or dependant horns instead of using an Indy horn. Sure they could use the more advance piece of technology but they're stuck in their ways and prefer the older style of instrument.
Those who stick with singles usually do so because of weight; those who prefer dependent valves usually cite a preference for only blowing though one valve on the open horn.
3  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Trombonium, tenor horn, or baritone horn? on: Jul 19, 2017, 12:13PM
One issue about oval baritones is that the Chinese made ones seem to be uniformly awful.  I've never tried playing a good make -- it might be quite different.
Played next to a guy who had a vintage Miraphone Kaiser baritone for a while. Intonation was, ummmm, interesting. Not sure how much was him and how much was the horn.
4  Classified Advertisements / Classified Advertisements / Re: FS: 1946 Olds Super (LA) $500 on: Jul 18, 2017, 02:29PM
Yellow tone ring?
5  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Trombonium, tenor horn, or baritone horn? on: Jul 17, 2017, 03:51PM
Joe Alessi recently played the Mahler 7 solo on british-style baritone (a Yamaha YBH-831S) -- the video's on YouTube. It sounded great and I appreciate his mindfulness that a German-Style Bb tenorhorn is a much smaller instrument than euphonium, even if it isn't exactly the same sound.
I think the idea is that, while it doesn't sound that much like an oval tenorhorn, the British baritone is a great deal closer than a euphonium would be...
6  Practice Break / Chit-Chat / Re: Bank error in your favor. Your student loan may disappear. on: Jul 17, 2017, 03:46PM
As i see it, the catch is that one has no way on knowing without first defaulting on payments and getting sued.
I wonder if one could make a request that they provide proof that they own the loan? After all, it's only reasonable, given the recent reports that they have been collecting on loans that they can't prove they own.

I can see some hungry attorneys turning this into a cottage industry, much like the mortgage modification, income tax relief, and general debt reduction stuff that's already happening.
7  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Repairs, Modifications and Maintenance / Re: Bartok Valve // Plug In 2nd on: Jul 17, 2017, 07:47AM
What do you think of a horn that would use the linkages from a Bartok valve (like a trigger on a trumpet, but to take the F valve to an E/Eb remotely) to operate a plug in D valve?

If it's set up like what Thein uses, that's much more complicated than what would be necessary for a slot-in valve (as Andy pointed out - it's necessary to turn a rather short motion at one end into a long motion at the other). If you already had an instrument with the Bartok setup, you probably could use the Bartok levers, but you might be better served to get a second, simpler linkage (using the same pivot saddles) made for the slot-in.
8  Teaching & Learning / Beginners and Returning Trombonists / Re: dilemma with my band on: Jul 16, 2017, 04:55PM
A gig repertoire going from ain't misbehavin', respect, malaguena, hey jude to chameleon, route 66 and always the same 2 that drive me crazy bugle boy call and in the mood...

Not very different from what the band I used to play with, except there'd usually be one or two modern jazz charts in the mix. We pretty much played whatever charts the band members could scrounge up. Thing is, the group billed itself as a swing band (it was part of the group's name), but I was largely alone in my desire to build a repertoire of swing-era music. The band leader/vocalist wanted "standards" and a lot of the others wanted to do more straight-ahead jazz with lots of room for solos.

That seems to be the way of big bands at the amateur/low semi-professional level.
9  Teaching & Learning / Beginners and Returning Trombonists / Re: dilemma with my band on: Jul 16, 2017, 09:31AM
I think it's the right thing to do to ask the leader if you can at least get comfortable with the book.  Once they hear you play it they might want you there.
If the OP is successful with that approach, the people who are playing first trombone now will almost certainly be offended. I'm not say that it's a bad idea, but the consequences must be considered before taking such an action.

I played in a band with those sorts of issues for a while. I decided it was best to just show up, play the part they put in front of you, and do your best to make a positive contribution to the music. Let others deal with the ego stuff.

As for mixing "pop" music in with the jazz? As Bruce pointed out, that is often something a band has to do to keep an audience. I am curious, though - could you give a few examples of what you would consider appropriate jazz tunes and also some examples of the "pop" tunes that you object to? In the band I used to play with, the struggle wasn't pop vs. jazz but swing vs. bebop and other more modern styles.
10  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Wessex Bb/F Bass trombone on: Jul 16, 2017, 07:21AM
Wow, the Jinbao site... blatant intellectual property infringement. Especially the Thein alto and Yamaha horns.

I can see if the model is no longer made, kind of, but damn dude. Do your own research.

Everybody "borrows" ideas from their competitors. Sometimes they add their own refinements/improvements, but not everyone and not every time.
11  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Trombonium, tenor horn, or baritone horn? on: Jul 15, 2017, 06:04PM
It's a Yamaha Neo Baritone Horn. A new take on the traditional compensated three valve horn in B flat. They have a 13.2mm through to 14mm bore and take a small shank mouthpiece.
So roughly the same size as what Mahler would have called a Bb tenor horn at the time when he composed the work.

For point of reference, the Conn Bb tenor horns from the early 20th century were #4 bore (.531"/13.5 mm).

Mahler 7. In an orchestra playing on period instruments the German tenor horn, as it was in Mahlers time, is the right instrument. (actually it is not the same instrument today) In the modern orchestra that instrument would be out of place.
How did tenor horns in Mahler's day vary from, say, a Cerveny CTH-521-3?

I'm afraid we're getting tangled up in nomenclature here.
12  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Should Wessex make a new Trombonium? on: Jul 15, 2017, 07:13AM
Wessex already has an oval baritone that is great.
The make a baritone: https://www.wessex-tubas.com/shop/euphonium-baritone/kaiser-baritone/
(they call it a Kaiser, but  0.59″ (15mm) bore is more like a regular (i.e., not Kaiser) baritone)
and a tenor horn: https://www.wessex-tubas.com/shop/euphonium-baritone/br130-german-tenor-horn/

An aside: if anyone from Wessex is reading this, you should check the bore spec listed on the page for the BR130; it says: "0.44″ (13mm)"; those two numbers don't agree.
13  Creation and Performance / Performance / Re: Is it me? Awkward Band Situation on: Jul 15, 2017, 06:57AM
The abilities that I have that I know of just don't seem to be in demand.
High playing endurance. Who cares? Not like anyone's doing 2-4 hour sets out there.
Ability to read cuts and cues very quickly. Might be useful in a pit/theater/opera, if any of those are using live brass any more.
Those are just the things you have that most trombonists don't. Take 'em away and there's still a really good trombonist there who is going to show up and play her backside off. Remember - I've heard you play. At no point did I think: "Wow, she's really got great endurance" or "she's really picking up those cues well". All I heard was a trombonist doing a heck of a job in a really tight band.
14  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Olds valve/slide 0-20 trombone on: Jul 14, 2017, 11:21AM
I have the impression that the slide and bell are similar to the R-15 Recording, but in yellow brass and with conventional braces.

If you do decide to sell the bell and slide, drop me a line. I've get a valve section that's a little lonely.
15  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Trombonium, tenor horn, or baritone horn? on: Jul 14, 2017, 11:11AM
British brass band call the Eb horn Tenor horn. The medium size Bb horn is a baritone. The large Bb horn is an euphonium, the BBb bass is one octave lower so let this out of the discousion.
With the exception of "re-enactment" bands that try to recreate the American brass bands of the 19th and early 20th century, almost all brass bands here in the US follow the British pattern - Eb tenor, Bb baritone, Bb euphonium, Eb bass, and BBb bass.

I've often thought it would be nice to have a vintage American Bb tenor horn, but they don't come on the market very often, and those that do are usually in poor condition.
16  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Wessex vs/and Jin Bao Contra Bass Trombone on: Jul 14, 2017, 08:26AM
Jin Bao quality is improving all the time.
I suspect many of the improvements made in conjunction with Wessex find their way into general production. As that process goes on, Wessex will have work to keep ahead of the run-of-the-mill Jin Bao product.

...Chinese likely a JinBao)...
And therein lies the crux of the problem. There are so many factories in China churning out instruments that look so much alike but are produced to varying standards of quality (or, in some cases, unquality) and so many different companies importing/distributing them under so many different names that one simply does not know what to expect. Dealing with a company like Wessex provides the buyer with some assurance of consistent quality.
17  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Trombonium, tenor horn, or baritone horn? on: Jul 14, 2017, 08:08AM
In American brass bands, there was three Bb upright horns; Bb tenor, Bb baritone, and Bb bass. You see this carried forward into military band music from the mid-to-late 19th and early 20th centuries - there are parts for Bb tenor (1st and 2nd), Bb baritone, and Bb bass. The tenor and bass parts were eventually replaced by 1st, 2nd, and 3rd trombone.

Cerveny makes three sizes of oval uprights in Bb; they have tenors (.520"/13.2 mm bore), baritones (.598" bore/15.2 mm), and "Kaiser" baritones (.638"/16.2 mm). Miraphone has a similar lineup.

Anyone familiar enough with history of British brass bands to know if they ever used a similar setup?
18  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Trombonium, tenor horn, or baritone horn? on: Jul 13, 2017, 09:09PM
Is a tenor horn just a valve trombone by another name?
Definitely not. Just look at the bell throat.
19  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Should Wessex make a new Trombonium? on: Jul 12, 2017, 11:29AM
and they didn't consider it a failure, though if it doesn't have a great timbral difference, what's the point?
It's all in how one defines success vs. failure.

Quote
Pitch discrepancies between the two bells are relatively minor, and with the left-hand tuning system, pose no real problem.
Relatively takes in a lot of territory. I'd feel a whole lot better if he'd written something more like: "As expected, there are some pitch discrepancies between the two bells, but these were well within the range of correction available using the left-hand tuning system."

Quote
The timbral difference between the two bells is not as great as expected - perhaps this is due as much to the large shank, deep cup mouthpiece as much as anything else. A continuation of this project should probably include the design of a new mouthpiece that is able to bring out the desired characteristics of both sides of the instrument.
I'd like to see a mouthpiece that makes the trombone side sound more like a trombone without also making the euphonium side also sound more like a trombone.

But Dr. Mallett's project certainly points up significant issue with making a modern double-bell instrument - there would be the expectation that the euphonium side would actually be a modern euphonium. Mating something like that up to a trombonium bell sized to provide the hope-for timbral difference would not be easy.
20  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Should Wessex make a new Trombonium? on: Jul 12, 2017, 09:09AM
While you're at it, how about making the first new double-bell euphonium in over 50 years?  I've never understood why no one makes them, considering how desirable they still are...
Part of what makes them desirable is their rarity - particularly ones in really good condition.
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