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1069908 Posts in 70975 Topics- by 18776 Members - Latest Member: jburg019
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1  Practice Break / Chit-Chat / Re: God on: Today at 06:53 AM
It seems to me to be saying you have a wrong map, but because you sincerely believe it's the right one you'll get to your destination even if you're heading in the wrong direction or something like that.  Ultimately, I don't think it treats the believer in other religions with much respect for their beliefs other than that they are sincere in their errors and sincerity trumps all.

I'm not sure that's disrespectful.  At least it's a step back from "do it our way or you're going to hell."  It's more like "our way is best, but your way will work too."

Islam has specifically addressed this.  They believe all men are inherently drawn towards God, and unless they resist, those approaches are valid.  Of course Islam is the superior approach, but the others all work for any sincere person. 

Valid can be defined lots of ways.  One is "results in salvation."  (obviously a Christian centric definition - not all religions believe in hell or that mankind needs any salvation)  Another is "accurate in every respect."  very few would be arrogant enough to claim that.
2  Practice Break / Chit-Chat / Re: God on: Today at 06:04 AM
BillO "However, I've never heard, for example's sake, a devout RC say something like "You know, Those Muslims don't worship God like I do, but I can see how their faith is just as valid and true for them as mine is for me."

Never heard an RC say that? Did you ask?
That's just silly. Of course their religion is as valid for them as it is for me. Now you've heard it. Cross it off your bucket list. :D

That is another point where Christians are not monolithic, I think.

The RC position dating back to 1969 (IIRC) does agree with the validity of other religions, IIRC, and allows for salvation by other than the RC church.  (theoretically it is still Jesus who saves the Muslims, whether they know it or not)

Protestant positions are probably more aligned with the idea that only Jesus saves, everybody else goes to hell forever. 

The more interesting question is to what extent the Quran or other sacred documents should be considered scripture.  There's quite a bit of variation in that idea, and it's been discussed quite a bit in recent years.  My church includes scripture readings in the regular worship from books that John for example does not consider scripture, but most would not go so far as to read the Quran.  Hans Kung is an older writer that's talked about this. 

My position: if God is still alive, there's no logical defendable reason to close the canon.  That presents some obvious problems of course, but nobody guaranteed us the world would be easy. 
3  Practice Break / Chit-Chat / Re: God on: Today at 05:55 AM
John, I was trying to make a joke.

Note to BillO:  Didn't we discuss this once before? 
4  Practice Break / Chit-Chat / Re: Cycling on: Today at 05:22 AM
Like Rob said, just because you have 21 gears doesn't mean you have to use all of them. If you leave the front in the middle ring and just use the back you're down to 7, or leave the back on the middle sprocket and you're down to 3. Ride it and play until you figure out what works for you.

When I rode a lot, back in 10-speed days, I only used six gears.  I shifted "cross-over," meaning shift the back sprocket 1, 2, 3  to the middle gear, then shift the front sprocket and use 3, 4, 5 in the back.  The way my tooth count was there wasn't a huge advantage to using all 10 possibilities. 

I still have that Schwinn Super La Tour, it sits on a mag trainer that I really should use more.  (and might, now that knees are making running a problem) 

Anyway, you can greatly simplify.  IIRC the little front sprocket on a 21 speed is a granny gear that nobody ever needs, and the big one is for Olympic athletes.   
5  Practice Break / Chit-Chat / Re: God on: Yesterday at 01:19 PM
Just as high for the atheist, BTW.

Yes.  (assuming a vengeful deity in both cases) 

Exactly as high.  Out of the thousands of possible Gods, the chances of picking the right one are equivalent to the atheist.  Slim to none.

However there is a significant difference in perceived certainty, and that's a rather important concept.  Regardless of which God, the believer tends to be highly certain he picked the right one, and highly resistant (often violently) to any change.  Atheists in general are FAR less certain. 

Overheard at a Notre Dame commencement in about 1974:  "We all worship the same God.  You in your way, and............we in His." 
6  Practice Break / Chit-Chat / Re: God on: Yesterday at 12:59 PM
I would agree with that.

But I really think there is a difference for the religious person who is sure that his view is correct and everybody else's wrong, because his comes from God.  The Holy Spirit revealed this to him (also wrote the Bible, but I digress).  When you're speaking for the Almighty, I think your perceived sense of certainty is higher than the most self evident political truth.  

Uh, also, the stakes are higher.

Vote for the wrong politician, your taxes go up.

Sign up with the wrong Deity, be tortured in hell for billions of years.  Once you're sure you're right, you DARE NOT second guess. 
7  Practice Break / Chit-Chat / Re: God on: Yesterday at 12:57 PM

BTW, many politicos that I know would never say that what they consider a false political view is "true for them."-- referring to the person holding that belief.  

I would agree with that.

But I really think there is a difference for the religious person who is sure that his view is correct and everybody else's wrong, because his comes from God.  The Holy Spirit revealed this to him (also wrote the Bible, but I digress).  When you're speaking for the Almighty, I think your perceived sense of certainty is higher than the most self evident political truth.  
8  Practice Break / Chit-Chat / Re: God on: Yesterday at 12:01 PM
Like i said, I stay out of religious discussions as they generally lead to people getting mad at each other over something that cannot be proved or disproved. I read the book, thought it was interesting, and shared the information here. I don't care whether anyone else reads it or not.

His book and those of Elaine Pagels are well worth reading, because they give you a viewpoint you would never suspect from the orthodoxy.

By all means read both sides of it, critically.  

You should also check out Spong.  His logic isn't as detailed but he's quite readable, and most of what he says is mainstream liberal Christian.  Not all, he's got a weird theory about liturgy and the gospels that's intriguing and well argued, but he didn't quite convince me.  
9  Creation and Performance / The Healthy Trombonist / Re: Broken tooth! on: Yesterday at 11:56 AM
I had a tooth break at the gumline and the dentist extracted it (I did get a second opinion but that guy agreed too.) 

Later when I could afford it, I had it replaced.  My new dentist said no implant, my jawbone wasn't thick enough at that point.  So he crowned the tooth on each side and made a bridge - there's a tooth in between that is continuous with both crowns. 

I've since repeated this process two other places.  The results are very good, no effect on playing and I can eat more comfortably. 

The cost of the bridge was considerably less than an implant, less than half I think. 
10  Practice Break / Chit-Chat / Re: God on: Yesterday at 04:57 AM
the problem I see is how you know your God has those attributes.

I fear it comes down to "well that's the definition of God." 

If so, that's a God of our own imagining and is not guaranteed to match in any respects with a real Entity. 
11  Practice Break / Chit-Chat / Re: God on: Jun 26, 2017, 11:28AM
That would be your own reading then. People have the ability to stray.

Okay, but don't you have to ask the opposite question?

Do people have the ability NOT to stray?

In other words, can we save ourselves without Jesus?

If not, then I would think we're designed that way. 
12  Horns, Gear, and Equipment / Instruments / Re: Outer slide: Sleeves vs. No Sleeves vs. "extruded?" on: Jun 26, 2017, 11:05AM
My guess would be that you would partially extrude the tube, then change the outer extrusion die to one with a larger ID.  Exactly how you would do this I leave to the Mechanical Engineers to explain (I'm a Chemical Engineer).

Think I'd run the tube through the big die first, then part way through the little die.  You'd get a little longer, too, either allow for that or cut it off.

But that's just me thinking out loud, I don't know how they do it. 
13  Practice Break / Chit-Chat / Re: God on: Jun 26, 2017, 11:03AM

Though does seem a bit off, if the christian faith says that the only way to God is through Jesus, and the jews mostly looked at Jesus as a no good rabble rouser but otherwise believe in God... how do you say they are the same? Driz describes it as important and also pedantic... but given it's a key point of christianity, it really doesn't seem all that pedantic either.

Well, if one believes God had a son, and the other doesn't, they can still be talking about the same God.  Then you add in Islam, with the same roots, it doesn't seem unreasonable that is the same God as well.  It makes sense to me to talk about 4 Abrahamic religions:  Judaism, Islam, Christianity, LDS. 
14  Practice Break / Chit-Chat / Re: Religion Matters: Take 3 on: Jun 26, 2017, 10:31AM
At least part of the time, people who find parts of Christianity implausible or risible might see it differently if it were explained by John or Tim, who have the benefit of reading centuries of Biblical scholarship, rather than explained simplistically by Christians who don't understand it well themselves.

It is my position that in presenting another viewpoint and illustrating that Christians don't agree on many concepts, that it possibly becomes more palatable to a nonbeliever.  There are aspects of John's theology that would cause me to reject faith, were it the only allowed possibility, and he likely feels the same. 

As far as Christians not understanding well themselves, not really their fault.  Many traditions don't trust them with the nuances, fearing they'll lose belief (and tithes.) 
15  Practice Break / Chit-Chat / Re: Religion Matters: Take 3 on: Jun 26, 2017, 10:27AM
Again, I think it is a matter of presuppositions.  The texts don't present themselves as a hodge-podge

Sorry, but they do in a large number of cases, proven beyond a doubt by the "Read Da Book" thread in this very forum. 
16  Practice Break / Chit-Chat / Re: Religion Matters: Take 3 on: Jun 26, 2017, 08:47AM

Somewhere in there you seem to be suggestion that the whole subject of religion cannot withstand being looked at from both sides?

Yes, in particular he has argued against textual criticism in other threads. 
17  Practice Break / Chit-Chat / Re: Religion Matters: Take 3 on: Jun 26, 2017, 07:55AM
Free will examples:

John 12:40
"He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so that they cannot see with their eyes, and understand with their hearts, and turn, and I would heal them."

Romans 9:18
Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.

Exodus 4:21
The LORD said to Moses, "When you go back to Egypt see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders which I have put in your power; but I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.

Exodus 7:4
"When Pharaoh does not listen to you, then I will lay My hand on Egypt and bring out My hosts, My people the sons of Israel, from the land of Egypt by great judgments.

Exodus 7:13
Yet Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said.

Exodus 10:1
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may perform these signs of Mine among them,

Exodus 10:20
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not let the sons of Israel go.

Exodus 11:10
Moses and Aaron performed all these wonders before Pharaoh; yet the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he did not let the sons of Israel go out of his land.

Exodus 14:8
The LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, king of Egypt, and he chased after the sons of Israel as the sons of Israel were going out boldly.

Joshua 11:20
For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, to meet Israel in battle in order that he might utterly destroy them, that they might receive no mercy, but that he might destroy them, just as the LORD had commanded Moses.

Sorry, couldn't resist!

If it is a basic precept of Christianity that we need salvation because we're incapable of saving ourselves, then clearly free will in the relevant sin-resisting sense does not exist. 
18  Practice Break / Chit-Chat / Re: God on: Jun 26, 2017, 07:44AM
Hmm.  Wiki says:

Abraham was childless. He was a prophet of Allah and, having left his native land, he was concerned over who would continue the prophetic office after him and whether he would indeed be a father one day. Pharaoh gave him his daughter Hagar as a slave. Hagar subsequently bore a child, and named him Ishmael, meaning "God will hear".

Hagar in the desert[edit]

Islamic scholars and sources state the following using the Arabic name Haajar for Hagar; "After Haajar gave birth to Ismaa’eel, Saarah began to feel jealous, so she asked Ibrahim to send them away from her. Allah revealed to Ibrahim that he should take Haajar and the infant Ismaa’eel and take them to Makkah. So he took them and left Haajar and her child Ismaa’eel in a bleak, isolated place in which there was no water, then he left them and went back to Canaan (Parts of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Israel and Palestinan territories). Haajar said to him, 'For whom are you leaving us in this forsaken valley?' But Ibrahim went and left her, and she said, 'Has Allah commanded you to do this?” He said, 'Yes.' She said, 'Then Allah will not cause us to be lost.'

Abraham submitted to the command of his Lord and patiently bore the separation from his wife and child. Then he turned towards where they were at the Sacred House and prayed for them in the following words (interpretation of the meaning):

'O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring to dwell in an uncultivatable valley by Your Sacred House (the Ka‘bah at Makkah) in order, O our Lord, that they may perform As-Salaah (Iqaamat-as-Salaah). So fill some hearts among men with love towards them, and (O Allah) provide them with fruits so that they may give thanks'[Qur'an, Ibraaheem 14:37][1]

Because of the scarcity of water in the desert, it was not long before both mother and son suffered immense thirst. Thus, Hagar ran between the Al-Safa and Al-Marwah hills in search of water for her son. After the seventh run between the two hills, an angel[2] appeared before her. He helped her and told her that God had heard Ishmael's crying and would provide them with water. At that point, God caused a spring to burst forth from the ground, where Ishmael's heel lay, and thereafter Mecca became known for its excellence and abundance of water. The well was subsequently named Zamzam, and become a holy source of water.
19  Practice Break / Chit-Chat / Re: God on: Jun 26, 2017, 07:41AM
It would seem this view is not held by all Christians: http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2011/april/muslimschristianssamegod.html

I would say it's even mainstream (while also noting there are some Christian positions that do not believe the OT God is the same as the NT.) 

The OT scripture that was designated for this past Sunday was Abraham kicking out his slave woman Hagar, who'd had his child, into the desert.  They run out of water and she turns away, not wanting to watch her child die.  God intervenes and produces a well.  The child survives and becomes the patriarch of the Muslim nation, just as Abraham's other child (with Sarah) Isaac goes on to become the patriarch of the Jewish nation. 

I don't know the Quran version.  I suspect it varies in some details. 
20  Practice Break / Chit-Chat / Re: Religion Matters: Take 3 on: Jun 26, 2017, 07:19AM

It's very clear. With free will, that God blessed us with, you choices mirror what you're made of.


Nowhere does the Bible claim we have free will.

That is a conclusion some people have reached, to explain the unfairness of God punishing us for temptations we couldn't resist.  But it is completely extra-scriptural.  
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