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1076659 Posts in 71375 Topics- by 18945 Members - Latest Member: rosegenn
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1  Teaching & Learning / Practice Room / Re: Bad days - do I need rest, or more practice? on: Yesterday at 12:22 PM
This really is true. It is important to know when to stop.

Yes. but, SO HARD!  At least for me. 
2  Practice Break / Religion / Re: God on: Yesterday at 11:53 AM
There is a greek orthodox down the street I have been meaning to visit.

I can't recommend it.  They don't have pews, you have to stand, and the service is long


 ;-)
3  Practice Break / Religion / Re: God on: Yesterday at 10:50 AM
I can't so much speak of others and their beliefs, but I can say of my own christian beliefs and the military... I auditioned for the army band, was accepted into the army band, and ultimately... was unable to join for the slight possibility that I would be sent to war and asked to kill.

I applaud your decision to act morally even against your own self interest. 

Did support from your faith community have any effect here, or was this purely individual?  Don't answer if too personal. 
4  Practice Break / Religion / Re: WorldViews on: Yesterday at 09:31 AM
For a very restricted vision, how about math vs nonmath?
5  Practice Break / Religion / Re: God on: Yesterday at 09:30 AM
So because religion has some bad history let's just throw the baby out with the bath water.

No, go back and read what BillO said a little more carefully.

He did NOT blame Christianity or any other religion.

He said people made an individual choice to not follow what were presumably the precepts of their faith.  That's not the same as saying their faith tenets advocated that behavior.  (although there are some denominations that have never met a war they didn't like) 

This does seem to be an area where there would be a clash between secular and religious values.

Secular values would seem likely to include self preservation (for the state) and therefor require war.  Religious values as Bob pointed out don't necessarily do that, unless contaminated by politics. 
6  Practice Break / Religion / Re: God on: Yesterday at 09:19 AM
Nor has even half of christianity in the US done that...

I would hope not.  Yet, 83% of evangelicals voted for that guy. 
7  Practice Break / Religion / Re: God on: Yesterday at 06:04 AM
No. You said, "Now people who are poor are regarded as deserving it."
I said many are unfortunate and many are lazy.
Do you see the obvious difference?
Do you think all poor people are unfortunate and none are lazy?

There are a couple of approaches to the less fortunate.

One is that we need to show them compassion, whether guided by the Golden Rule, some sense of self satisfaction, Jesus's wonderful message in Matthew 25 about "done it unto the least of them," etc. 

Another is that as a whole they are that way because they are inherently less fit somehow, or made bad life choices, or are being punished; most of them are multigenerational lazy "takers."  They contribute nothing to society and are merely a drain.  We maybe need to take minimal care of them, but in hard times we can't afford the luxury and don't want to encourage them too much. 

At one time there was a pretty clear distinction between who believed which.  The first approach was, and I emphasize was, clearly the Christian stance.  The second was a conservative political stance. 

When the unholy alliance between church and politics was forged, the political stance was adopted by huge segments of the church.  That kind of moral erosion is inevitable when you choose your friends that way. 

Of course it's not true that all Christianity has done that, fortunately.  But you only have to read the comments from evangelical Christians on any topic to realize the percentage is very large. 
8  Practice Break / Religion / Re: God on: Yesterday at 05:41 AM


Christianity:
- (OT) do not kill unjustly
- (NT) revised to do not kill at all. Better to die for your neighbor than kill him.

Secular Ethics:
- do not kill, because someone might want to kill you in return
- unless they already want to kill you, in which case you can kill them

Bob,
I agree with you, that was Jesus's message.

However, it does not seem to be part of Christianity.  There are a few denominations with that stance, like Quakers and Methodists I think.  The evangelicals who voted for the current President overwhelmingly support the death penalty, self defense, gun rights, etc.  In fact the Second Amendment seems to have become part of the creed.

Fewer atheists support the death penalty.  See this from Christian forums:
https://www.christianforums.com/threads/capital-punishment-atheists-versus-christians.7590881/

9  Practice Break / Religion / Re: God on: Aug 17, 2017, 10:46AM
Ummm No. Many are poor because they are unfortunate and many are poor because they are lazy.


I rest my case. 
10  Practice Break / Religion / Re: God on: Aug 17, 2017, 10:27AM


There is quite a bit actually. US secular values use a economic system that places the worth of a person equal to their worth monetarily. Christian values focus on the worth of the person irregardless of the rest of the baggage. That is one example of many.

Sadly, that has not been true for a long time, since the conservative Christian church made its unholy alliance with the conservative political party.  Now people who are poor are regarded as deserving it. 
11  Practice Break / Religion / Re: God on: Aug 17, 2017, 09:37AM
Well, no. Secular morals have no real advantage. They just are. 

But that really isn't true, is it?  Secular values are based on some kind of calculation you may or may not agree with, but they're not arbitrary.  They usually have some kind of utilitarian, greatest good type basis, but they always have a basis. 

Religious values on the other hand have no logical basis.  They are whatever God likes. In some cases what God likes aligns pretty well with what we like, or what common sense says, or with secular values.  In other cases what He likes is really incomprehensible.  (then there is that other little niggling problem, that of determining what He likes with any degree of precision)  But the point is God doesn't have to give us a reason for what he wants, and normally doesn't. 

This doesn't invalidate religious values.  If God exists he presumably has the power and free will to determine what is good and bad.  But it does mean that religious values aren't inherently superior in any practical sense. 

Quote
They are the standards of behavior for a given society. Good, bad, they will exist as a society exists and change as a society changes.

True.  But there is no discernible difference here between religious and secular values. 
12  Practice Break / Chit-Chat / and now I'm a famous teacher on: Aug 17, 2017, 08:04AM
I guess this scam is going around again, got it yesterday:

Quote
During my search for a lesson teacher that would help in taking my son (Kenneth) During is stay in your location. I found your advert and it is very okay to me since you specialize in the area I'm seeking for him, My son would be coming to your city before the end of this month for a period of time with his friend, I'll like to know if you can help in taking him for the lesson? just to keep him busy and refresh. Kenneth is 11 years old, So kindly let me know your charges per hour/lesson in order for me to arrange for his payment before he travels down to for the lessons to commence.

He will be staying there for 2 weeks and Please Reply back on:

(1). Your charges per 2 hours (3 times a week for 2 Weeks):starting from 28th August until 9th September 2017

(2) Total Cost For 6 class/12 hours lessons in 2 Weeks

(3). The Day you will be available to teach him During the week:

  Well am very happy that i see you as my son tutor and about your years of Experience there is no problem about the lessons, My son will be coming with his caregiver. So there is no problem for the lesson to commence by next week, my son caregiver will be bringing him to your location for the lessons and you can teach him anywhere around you including the Library or your home if that is okay by you so i will like you to teach my son the best of you when he get to the city for the lessons. I will like you to email me with your schedule for the lessons,I will like you to email me with the name on the check and Full mailing address where the check will be mailed to and including your Home and Cell phone number for my attorney to issue out a check to your before leaving the the state, by this week, I will be awaiting to read from you soon with your name and address.

It sounds like a great idea, I'm sure I can help him.   :)  Only part I wonder about is teaching trombone in the library.  Can someone recommend a really good mute?
13  Practice Break / Religion / Re: God on: Aug 17, 2017, 06:53AM
Might makes right, or some other guiding principle like greatest good for the greatest number, cost benefit analysis, etc.

The trouble I have with that comparison is that it has never yet worked in discussion on this forum.

Without exception, the more conservative Christians here are willing to compromise moral principles for any special case that comes along.  E.g., torture is wrong unless your family is at risk then it's okay.  Love your neighbor, except if they might take a job you didn't want anyway.  And without exception, the atheists have been much less willing to compromise principles. 

I have a theory, well more like a working hypothesis I guess, as to the reason.

While we have some individual principles, some of us, we are also heavily influenced by the shared ethic of our peer group.

When conservative Christians allied themselves with the political right, the peer group expanded to include politicians, and by extension the ethical standards that accompanied them. 
14  Practice Break / Religion / Re: God on: Aug 17, 2017, 06:45AM


And yes, secular based morals do not have them cast in stone.

But per christianity, what are some core morals and ethics per others?
Love one another, and sacrifice for one another.
Take care of the less fortunate among you.
Value people above possessions.
etc.

Why should these change?

But secular morals and ethics... are often changing per "might makes right".

Might makes right, or some other guiding principle like greatest good for the greatest number, cost benefit analysis, etc.

The trouble I have with that comparison is that it has never yet worked in discussion on this forum.

Without exception, the more conservative Christians here are willing to compromise moral principles for any special case that comes along.  E.g., torture is wrong unless your family is at risk then it's okay.  Love your neighbor, except if they might take a job you didn't want anyway.  And without exception, the atheists have been much less willing to compromise principles. 
15  Practice Break / Religion / Re: God on: Aug 16, 2017, 01:27PM
Well no... Religion can help people be better people, it just doesn't MAKE people be better people. Having a goal to love and respect others does not mean you always will, but it's far better than not having a goal and not giving a damn about others.
Because human nature is not hard set, and can be influenced. One of the ideas of living a christian life is to purposefully attempt to see oneself to some of those better aspects.

Bob,
I agree with this, and think you're right.
But I'm somewhat dismayed to see how easily abandoned this approach is.  Particularly in the conservative side, the focus on faith and correct belief to the detriment of any obligation to behave is very disappointing.  You really see it in the hateful rhetoric, in the abandonment of principle for expediency, etc. 
16  Practice Break / Religion / Re: God on: Aug 16, 2017, 01:24PM


Having read Walton on a number of things and knowing his abilities as a biblical scholar, especially on historical backgrounds, I think his perspective might be an important one, no matter where one starts on this issue. 

I couldn't find much on this book, but I read his interview in Christianity Today and quite a bit of commentary on his Genesis materials, the Adam and Eve stuff. 

It's clear he doesn't accept the redactor approach - there aren't two creation stories, there are two creations, one material and one spiritual.  Adam and Eve aren't the first people, they are the first priests.  Etc.

I think he errs in assigning equal probabilities to all possibilities.  This is the common false equivalence trap. 
17  Practice Break / Religion / Re: God on: Aug 16, 2017, 10:39AM
We strive to live up to Christian values.

Name one value that you HAVE to live up to, even when it's inconvenient. 
18  Practice Break / Religion / Re: God on: Aug 16, 2017, 10:11AM
So according to Tim I don't have a problem with torture. And I don't love immigrants.
Regarding Tim's deflection;
A. Torture is awful but if it means saving my family I'd do torture them myself. You wouldn't? You'd just sit there and play cards?

So there are no moral absolutes.  Torture is wrong, unless the information is important, then it's okay. 

This was not the position of Christianity until the conservative branch allied itself with the Republican party, doing great damage to both.  But most of the damage is to the faith.
19  Creation and Performance / Performance / Re: Suggestions for fun bone solo with band on: Aug 16, 2017, 08:46AM
I would recommend you try it out on a non musical listener. 

It isn't always easy for us to judge what is accessible.

I've listened to concertos at ETW/ATW off and on since, oh, 1996 or so.  Though the artistry is amazing, very few of them would work for ordinary people.  Some of them didn't even work for me. 

The Bayrische Polka and Old Oaken Bucket links I posted would work for older audiences.  I don't know what will work for a young crowd.  Never saw one at a community band concert though. 
20  Practice Break / Religion / Re: God on: Aug 16, 2017, 08:35AM
So according to Tim, since no anecdotes to the contrary have been produced, they don't exist. Those 2 or 3 anecdotes represent all of Christianity then.
Read a newspaper lately?

That's a deflection.  You prefer to focus on the word anecdote than admit you don't have a problem with torture or not loving immigrants. 

This is what has happened in every thread where the issue has come up.  One of you (you being the group of most conservative believers here) stated he would do the torture and ask for forgiveness later. 

At the same time I don't accuse any of you of not believing.  But the apparent disconnect between belief and actions is one of the things that pushes non believers away.  It is the opposite of evangelism and the great commission. 
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