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Author Topic: Dumb questions about basses  (Read 2380 times)
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Stewbones43

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« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2017, 02:20AM »

I have my own solution to this situation in that I have a standard sized, large bore, independent, 10in belled bass trombone for most of the playing I do-orchestral and big band- but I have a small bass for the earlier orchestral stuff and the times when I am playing for a choral group; I may be wrong but I cannot remember ever needing a low B in any bass trombone music written before 1900!

My instrument of choice for a "small bass" is a Besson "Academy 409" (AKA B&H Imperial, Besson 10-10, B&H/Besson 555). It has a bore of .555in, a 9in bell and a good pull to E. It handles like a tenor but sounds and plays like a bass.
The down-side is that they haven't been made for about 40 years and weren't all that common even then but they do come up on UK Ebay from time to time and are not expensive.

Cheers

Stewbones
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rdalton
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« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2017, 04:49AM »

I am primarily a tenor trombone player playing mostly straight horns. I do own one bass, it's a single valve Olds with a quick E pull. Several years ago I had a crook made to lower the instrument to E - the quick pull works to go to Eb. So I can play Bb/F, Bb/E or Bb/Eb.

There are times where I have to play many low Cs and Bs. I will use the Eb configuration for that.

Note - I do not play bass trombone enough to trade in or buy another horn.
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bonesmarsh
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« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2017, 05:00AM »

The experiment does not have to cost a couple of hundred bucks. I've printed the detailed instructions here before. Here it is in a nutshell:

Buy one piece of 12" long model rocket tubing for $5 the size you need to accept the F tuning slide.
Buy a second piece 1/32" smaller to replicate the size of the F tuning slide, also for $5.
Cut them in half so you have two pieces 6" long.
Glue the smaller diameter piece into the larger piece, so it is about 9" long.

Stick the two wonky rebuilt pieces into the receiver part of the F tubing.
Stick the preexisting F attachment slide from the horn into the 9" extension part sticking out.

Total cost for the piece of Eb attachment $10.

Maybe a shop has pieces of old euphonium to chop down if you haven't got access to model rocket tubing.

And it does not take 40 years to learn how to play Eb attachment. Just remember you have no alternate positions and it is FAST to learn. A matter of hours, it is only 5 notes to learn.
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Matt K

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« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2017, 05:49AM »

It depends on what you're attempting to use it for. I had a Bb/F/D attachment built for my shires tenor. I even had a 9" bell and a 547/562 slide for it.  While it did play well, I found some of the lower parts in trombone choir music to really not be as easy to play on it as a real bass. Even in a big band setting I found a real bass to give a better commercial sound than the hybrid tenor/bass I had made.  It makes more sense to me, after doing all of that experimenting, to find an easy to play bass instead of a big tenor for most applications.  The Duo Gravis/6B and 7B horns I've played were much easier blows than other bass models (probably largely due to the 562 rotors and tubing).  I believe the Benge 290 is in that same category. I've not played the JinBao clones of the 7B but I suspect they may be close to the instrument that you seek.

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What's in a name? that which we call a tenor-bass posaune
By any other name would smell as sweet;
jackbird
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« Reply #24 on: May 23, 2017, 06:31AM »

@bonesmarsh, cool, so you have half a meter of rocket launching straight out behind you? I might try that before spending money. Is that aluminum tubing?

@Stewbones, I think those are rare over here. I'm familiar with the 10-10, but not the others. I'll keep an eye out.

@LPR, Yeah, I remember that. Funky frankenbone with a 5b bell, I think. It had a straight 547 slide, though, I think. It was cheap too, as I remember. Don't know who got it or who sold it, but I think it was a one-off.

Cool ideas, thanks all.
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harrison.t.reed
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« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2017, 06:37AM »

"tenorbaß"

 Yeah, RIGHT.
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bonesmarsh
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« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2017, 05:48PM »

It was brass rocket tube. Can't find it online to save my life. The store is long gone. Hobby supply store. The model rocket tube to fit .585/.590 Bach bass bone parts was common.

I built a CC attachment for a Bach 50B3LG to make the second valve in low C all by itself to avoid the ****** stuffy F attachment valve. The tubing for that one also cost $10, in 1980 dollars.

harrison, it is the German alphabet spelling of tenorbaSS.
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harrison.t.reed
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« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2017, 06:32PM »

Really?!  :-0
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BillO
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« Reply #28 on: May 24, 2017, 07:39AM »

It was brass rocket tube. Can't find it online to save my life. The store is long gone. Hobby supply store. The model rocket tube to fit .585/.590 Bach bass bone parts was common.

I built a CC attachment for a Bach 50B3LG to make the second valve in low C all by itself to avoid the ****** stuffy F attachment valve. The tubing for that one also cost $10, in 1980 dollars.

harrison, it is the German alphabet spelling of tenorbaSS.

Like this: https://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/k+s/k+s8141.htm
And this: https://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/k+s/k+s8142.htm

Soldering them together might be better than glue.
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kbiggs

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« Reply #29 on: May 24, 2017, 08:52AM »

"tenorbaß"

 Yeah, RIGHT.

Really?!  :-0

"What's in a name? That which we call a rose* by any other name would smell as sweet..."

    *Tenor, bass, tenor-bass, tenorbass, tenorbaß...

Names are arbitrary. Meaning is derived from context.
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Kenneth Biggs
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Matt K

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« Reply #30 on: May 24, 2017, 10:00AM »

"What's in a name? That which we call a rose* by any other name would smell as sweet..."

    *Tenor, bass, tenor-bass, tenorbass, tenorbaß...

Names are arbitrary. Meaning is derived from context.

See signature  :D
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What's in a name? that which we call a tenor-bass posaune
By any other name would smell as sweet;
kbiggs

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« Reply #31 on: May 24, 2017, 11:55AM »

 Good!
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Kenneth Biggs
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marccromme

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« Reply #32 on: May 24, 2017, 03:00PM »

There is the Jürgen Voigt small--dual bore (13.2 / 13.9 mm) bass trombone with a 250 mm bell. It plays well and might be what you want ???

And there is a Schagerl 2 valve Mutthorn tenor, but both are easiest found in Europa.
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jackbird
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« Reply #33 on: May 24, 2017, 03:20PM »

There is the Jürgen Voigt small--dual bore (13.2 / 13.9 mm) bass trombone with a 250 mm bell. It plays well and might be what you want ???

And there is a Schagerl 2 valve Mutthorn tenor, but both are easiest found in Europa.

I wish European stuff had better exposure over here. You all have a lot of options available. I think a pocket full of cash might help find that Muthorn as well. Looks like its $6600US. It is pretty much what I'm looking for, although a bigger lower slide might be nice, and maybe a G valve for valve #2.
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JohnL
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« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2017, 03:50PM »

On the other end of the price range from Voigt and Schagerl, there's the Amati ASL 382; 14.0mm (.551") bore, 235mm (9.375") bell, Bb/F/D dependent. Runs around $2,000 from WWBW.
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jackbird
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« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2017, 05:48PM »

On the other end of the price range from Voigt and Schagerl, there's the Amati ASL 382; 14.0mm (.551") bore, 235mm (9.375") bell, Bb/F/D dependent. Runs around $2,000 from WWBW.

Isn't that something. They even have an open box horn for $1500. I was slow and missed out on that Holton 159. The Amati has2 triggers, though. Very interesting.
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jackbird
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« Reply #36 on: May 25, 2017, 08:51AM »

Like this: https://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/k+s/k+s8141.htm
And this: https://www.hobbylinc.com/htm/k+s/k+s8142.htm

Soldering them together might be better than glue.

Any 90 or 180 deg bends?
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BillO
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« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2017, 10:40AM »

Any 90 or 180 deg bends?
You would not need them to do as bonesmarsh suggested.  Maybe, if you wanted to make a new tuning slide, rather than a set of tuning slide extender tubes, you could take the pipe to a local plumber to have it bent properly.  It's not all that easy to do without the right skills and equipment.
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boneagain
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« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2017, 11:05AM »

You would not need them to do as bonesmarsh suggested.  Maybe, if you wanted to make a new tuning slide, rather than a set of tuning slide extender tubes, you could take the pipe to a local plumber to have it bent properly.  It's not all that easy to do without the right skills and equipment.

I suspect a local plumber would not have the gear to make an acceptable bend.  To keep the inside diameter of the tubing close to the original something like pitch would have to be melted in, cooled, bent around a form, then melted out, and the resulting imperfections smoothed out.  Very much brass tech work.

Just having the extension tubes suggested by bonesmarsh is a better idea from a cost and storage perspective.  MUCH easier to keep it all in the case without worrying about dinging something that is supposed to slide; no worry about loosing a part; no worry about not having the F slide on hand if a part gets too ugly without it.  And as someone else suggested, not unrealistic for an ordinary person to solder those pieces together: they just need a good seal all the way around, not solder all the way up and down the overlap.
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Matt K

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« Reply #39 on: May 25, 2017, 11:29AM »

You could also use OE Thayer tubing since its meant for an instrument. The tuning slide bow is $25.  I don't see the tube or ferrule cost at the moment, but they aren't expensive. Especially if you're just buying only enough to make a tuning slide out of it.
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What's in a name? that which we call a tenor-bass posaune
By any other name would smell as sweet;
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