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The Trombone ForumTeaching & LearningPractice Room(Moderator: blast) More questions on high range?
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stk
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« Reply #20 on: Jun 13, 2017, 08:24AM »

In general, you can feel this off the horn by blowing through your aperture and listening to the rush of air, which has sortof a pitch to it.  Then vary your tongue as in whistling and that sorta pitch changes.  That is how I understand the higher notes now.

Here's a video that explains this well, I think. The specific thing about how tongue position affects pitch starts around 13:35, but the whole thing is worth watching. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArerPfHbkEk
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« Reply #21 on: Jun 14, 2017, 06:05AM »

I wonder whether this shaping the tongue technique is dependant upon the individuals palette shape. For myself, the change in my tongue shape/angle to help produce the higher notes is minute and something that I don't consciously use and have never felt the need of. Even when I deliberately include it into my practice it doesn't seem to help at all, and just gets in the way.

I do arch to tongue downwards to open out lower notes though..
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« Reply #22 on: Jun 14, 2017, 06:34AM »

I wonder whether this shaping the tongue technique is dependant upon the individuals palette shape. For myself, the change in my tongue shape/angle to help produce the higher notes is minute and something that I don't consciously use and have never felt the need of. Even when I deliberately include it into my practice it doesn't seem to help at all, and just gets in the way.

I do arch to tongue downwards to open out lower notes though..

One can only arch their tongue up so much. I can't arch it up into my brain, although some think I do. lol

When the tongue is already up there as far as it can go, to ascend further, something else must - apparently - occur.

I'm just beginning to get the idea of finesse. When I'm on it, the higher notes come out nicer with far less muscle and therefor with an increase in my endurance.

...Geezer
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« Reply #23 on: Jun 14, 2017, 07:26AM »

I wonder whether this shaping the tongue technique is dependant upon the individuals palette shape. For myself, the change in my tongue shape/angle to help produce the higher notes is minute and something that I don't consciously use and have never felt the need of. Even when I deliberately include it into my practice it doesn't seem to help at all, and just gets in the way.

I do arch to tongue downwards to open out lower notes though..

If I play any tone for a long time and flex the back of my tongue up and down, the sound changes. The pitch do change if the embouchure change i sympathy with the tongue. If I keep the embouchure absolutely still, I can flex my tongue all day, the sound changes but not the pitch. Most students can not separate the embouchure from this symphatetic move.

Whathappens with the tongue arch is that the rewsonance chamber (in the mouth) get smaller and higher pitches get priviliged. The air speed does not change because the lip apperture is smaller then the aperture between the tongue and gum.
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« Reply #24 on: Jun 14, 2017, 07:44AM »

One can only arch their tongue up so much. I can't arch it up into my brain, although some think I do. lol

...Geezer

That would require that you HAD a brain, and.........nah, that's just too easy.

Here's a thought.

It might not be a linear thing - higher tongue equals progressively higher pitch.

Is that true for the slide?  Can we only play 7 notes?  Nope.  But, we have to be in the right place. maybe it's the same for the tongue. 

It's fun to speculate. 

Probably the most practical takeaway is simply that if you're working hard, you're doing it wrong. 

And you can get to C or D by sheer effort, but you're doing it wrong. 

Disc golf pros say you can get to about 300 feet with arm muscle.  The record is almost 800 feet.  I'm not even at 300 feet yet, but I'm starting to throw with less effort, so I might be on the right track. 
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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #25 on: Jun 14, 2017, 08:05AM »

That would require that you HAD a brain, and.........nah, that's just too easy.

Here's a thought.

It might not be a linear thing - higher tongue equals progressively higher pitch.

Is that true for the slide?  Can we only play 7 notes?  Nope.  But, we have to be in the right place. maybe it's the same for the tongue. 

It's fun to speculate. 

Probably the most practical takeaway is simply that if you're working hard, you're doing it wrong. 

And you can get to C or D by sheer effort, but you're doing it wrong.
 

Disc golf pros say you can get to about 300 feet with arm muscle.  The record is almost 800 feet.  I'm not even at 300 feet yet, but I'm starting to throw with less effort, so I might be on the right track. 

I figured I tossed up a softball! lol

I like how you phrased it b/c it's where things gets sticky on this Forum. There is strength involved. There has to be or not one single note of any pitch would come out. But it should not be hard work. And for those of us who make it hard, we are doing it wrong.

...Geezer
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« Reply #26 on: Jun 14, 2017, 11:36AM »



But it should not be hard work. And for those of us who make it hard, we are doing it wrong.

...Geezer

Are you using the same aperture in the higher register as you would for say, for a middle Bb?
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« Reply #27 on: Jun 14, 2017, 12:46PM »

Are you using the same aperture in the higher register as you would for say, for a middle Bb?

Logic tells me that it can't be. Taking it further, would the aperture be the same on a low C (below the staff) as it would be for an altissimo C? How could it possibly be the same? And yet, it should require no more work to hit the altissimo C as the low C. When we learn how to vibrate our chops to get out a low C, we don't really think of it as working hard. It's just a frequency at which we have trained our chops to vibrate and we have found the correct way to do it. I believe it should be the same concept for all other notes. But for some odd reason, somewhere along the line in our learning, we have turned playing high into an Olympic sport.

Maybe that is due to the examples we have all seen. Think back to some famous trumpet players you have watched bloating themselves up like big bullfrogs to hit high notes. Maybe that is merely showmanship on their part b/c that is what is expected. Perhaps, if those same trumpet players wanted to, they could casually play every bit as high leaning up against a lamppost, with one hand on their horn while shining the fingernails of their other hand on their lapel. No showmanship there, though! lol Which image do we have of Tommy Dorsey or Urbie Green playing high? The former or the latter?

Try this: warm up well, then cross-grain slur a middle Bb in 1st position up to a high Bb in 3rd position. If it is a lot of work to hold that high Bb, you are doing it wrong. If you can instead, do it so that the high Bb feels like just about as much work (okay, maybe a litttttle more work) as the middle Bb, you are doing it right. We should be able to stroll down Broadway all day doing that exercise; up & down & up & down... It should be that  easy.

Anyway, that's what I'm aiming for. Easy to say...

...Geezer   
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« Reply #28 on: Jun 14, 2017, 12:53PM »

Try this: warm up well, then cross-grain slur a middle Bb in 1st position up to a high Bb in 3rd position. If it is a lot of work to hold that high Bb, you are doing it wrong. If you can instead, do it so that the high Bb feels like just about as much work (okay, maybe a litttttle more work) as the middle Bb, you are doing it right. We should be able to stroll down Broadway all day doing that exercise; up & down & up & down... It should be that  easy.

Aha!!!

I see what you're doing wrong.

You're playing notes that you CAN play wrong, like high Bb.

You need to practice notes that there's no way you can play by working hard, like the double Bb.  There's no pressure on that note, because you KNOW you can't hit it with strength.
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« Reply #29 on: Jun 14, 2017, 01:01PM »

Aha!!!

I see what you're doing wrong.

You're playing notes that you CAN play wrong, like high Bb.

You need to practice notes that there's no way you can play by working hard, like the double Bb.  There's no pressure on that note, because you KNOW you can't hit it with strength.

No you don't. You aren't my instructor and you aren't in a position to see me play - - - - - unless..... Okay, I just put a piece of black electrical tape over that glowing dot on my monitor. lol

I don't know what in my narrative sent the message that I was doing anything wrong. I was trying to explain what I believe is the correct concept to approach high-range development.

I like the concept you stated about taking brute force out of the equation because it won't work anyway.

...Geezer
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« Reply #30 on: Jun 14, 2017, 01:09PM »

Are you using the same aperture in the higher register as you would for say, for a middle Bb?

I was asking this question because there seems to be a lot more interest in the mouth cavity rather than the "reed" set, or aperture.

Pages 30 and 6 of "Tromboninisms" by Watrous/Ralph is a good explanation IMO.
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« Reply #31 on: Jun 14, 2017, 01:18PM »

I have that book. It's good. But I think there are some things that simply can not be learned by most of us from out of a book or dissection on this Forum. I believe some things need to be learned by rote; observation, discussion, demonstration and trial; on a one-on-one basis.

OBTW: that hair-cut is soooooo 70's! lol Been there; done that.

...Geezer
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« Reply #32 on: Jun 14, 2017, 01:31PM »

brute force can be useful, if you know where to apply it....
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« Reply #33 on: Jun 14, 2017, 02:51PM »

I wonder whether this shaping the tongue technique is dependant upon the individuals palette shape. For myself, the change in my tongue shape/angle to help produce the higher notes is minute and something that I don't consciously use and have never felt the need of. Even when I deliberately include it into my practice it doesn't seem to help at all, and just gets in the way.

I do arch to tongue downwards to open out lower notes though..

I have often wondered this also. I dont conciously do anything different with my tongue regardless of what register I play in. Im sure its doing something, but it cannot be a huge involvement or it would be obvious to me. I actually notice my Jaw being more involved. If I slur from the pedal register to the high register through slow arpeggios I can feel my jaw raise slightly each time until it gets to a point where it feels like it doesn't need to any more. If I want to manipulate my sound quality, I think about blowing in different ways rather than messing about with my tongue.

Is there a way to determine what palette shape you have in comparison to someone elses? I would love to find out if that is actually a factor.
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« Reply #34 on: Jun 15, 2017, 01:56AM »


 I think there are some things that simply can not be learned by most of us from out of a book or dissection on this Forum. I believe some things need to be learned by rote; observation, discussion, demonstration and trial; on a one-on-one basis.

...Geezer

I really don't know how to respond to this post..  Confused
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« Reply #35 on: Jun 15, 2017, 05:15AM »

Well, it's been said that a picture is worth 1K words. For me, that holds true. So if I see a picture of something, I get more out of it than reading a narrative that goes on & on & on. Taking that a step further, if I see a live demo of something, I can get more out of that  than a static picture of something.

I believe some teachings must be done live; one-on-one with either a single student or a master class. I just don't think some things can be adequately communicated via written text to some of us, like - me. And that is why I have turned to professional instruction. I could only go so far by reading about it. I think learning how to play seemingly effortlessly in the extreme high range is something I need to be shown, rather than me trying to read about it.

I believe that concept holds true for many of us, albeit perhaps on different topics. Some of us can read all day long about playing with style, rather than just playing notes, but until we are taught by example - by rote, if you will - we might not get it.

...Geezer
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« Reply #36 on: Jun 15, 2017, 08:21AM »


Try this: warm up well, then cross-grain slur a middle Bb in 1st position up to a high Bb in 3rd position. If it is a lot of work to hold that high Bb, you are doing it wrong. If you can instead, do it so that the high Bb feels like just about as much work (okay, maybe a litttttle more work) as the middle Bb, you are doing it right. We should be able to stroll down Broadway all day doing that exercise; up & down & up & down... It should be that  easy.

Anyway, that's what I'm aiming for. Easy to say...

...Geezer   

You can also do a lip slur like a cross grain in 1st position only, from mid-range Bb to high Bb. Or, from 1st(mid) to 7th(high).

BTW, I always need more work. It's a life time journey!

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« Reply #37 on: Jun 15, 2017, 08:27AM »

You can also do a lip slur like a cross grain in 1st position only, from mid-range Bb to high Bb. Or, from 1st(mid) to 7th(high).

BTW, I always need more work. It's a life time journey!


Yes indeedy - to everything!

We can go Full Monty with cross-grain slurs, using all the alternate positions that fit in; up to as high as we want, with lots of them ending in 6th, #6th, 7th, #7th, etc. Try a cross-grain scale slur from middle C in 3rd, up to high C in 7th, with lots of alternate positions to make as many cross-grain slurs as possible. That high C should not be muscled or forced. Great exercises! The new Remmy!

...Geezer
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« Reply #38 on: Jun 15, 2017, 09:09AM »

Well, it's been said that a picture is worth 1K words. For me, that holds true. So if I see a picture of something, I get more out of it than reading a narrative that goes on & on & on. Taking that a step further, if I see a live demo of something, I can get more out of that  than a static picture of something.

I believe some teachings must be done live; one-on-one with either a single student or a master class. I just don't think some things can be adequately communicated via written text to some of us, like - me. And that is why I have turned to professional instruction. I could only go so far by reading about it. I think learning how to play seemingly effortlessly in the extreme high range is something I need to be shown, rather than me trying to read about it.

I believe that concept holds true for many of us, albeit perhaps on different topics. Some of us can read all day long about playing with style, rather than just playing notes, but until we are taught by example - by rote, if you will - we might not get it.

...Geezer

I agree! I have always benefited more from a one on one teaching situation(with me being the student), rather than playing exercises out of a book. Exercises in books are a collection of notes, and w/o instruction of the purpose that I'm to gain by playing those notes, then it's flying blind. I've done this for years. I guess I thought the purpose was to just be able to play the notes as written with good timing, tone, articulation, tuning, and breathing, and that's not a bad thing. However, there can be so much more to gain when you have an instructor give you specific exercises with specific details how to approach the exercises, and what he wants you to be able to achieve with those exercises.

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« Reply #39 on: Jun 15, 2017, 09:18AM »

No doubt.

And applying this to high-range development, I believe that every note we play or even try to play should be from a musicality standpoint. They aren't just notes to get out. Every written note is a musical representation of something. It's up to us to try to play the notes and play them musically if at all possible. That's a tough one when we are just trying to even squeak out a high note. But we would do well to still keep it in mind. It would be a little mental salve applied if I thought that - even though I stunk up the joint - at least I was conveying an enthusiasm of trying  to make music.

...Geezer
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