Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

 
Advanced search

1073401 Posts in 71208 Topics- by 18871 Members - Latest Member: movelearn
Jump to:  
The Trombone ForumTeaching & LearningPractice Room(Moderator: blast) Forget quality, listen to the volume!
Pages: 1 2 [3]  All   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: Forget quality, listen to the volume!  (Read 2411 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Hicks
*
Offline Offline

Location: UK
Joined: Jun 5, 2005
Posts: 112

View Profile
« Reply #40 on: Jun 12, 2017, 07:38AM »

Remember that piece I mentioned right back at the start of this thread, called "On The Shoulders Of Giants"?
Well here we have the Cory band (ranked world number 1), playing the finale of this piece. The interesting thing is that they have 2 players on the second trom part. Is that because they need the extra volume to balance the section?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InN8MTV2t1Y

Logged
BGuttman
Mad Chemist

*
*
Online Online

Location: Londonderry, NH, USA
Joined: Dec 12, 2000
Posts: 50380
"Almost Professional"


View Profile
« Reply #41 on: Jun 12, 2017, 09:56AM »

I had wondered about that and now I have a theory:

The trombone has more "presence" in the upper register (at least up to high C).  The bass trombone is much bigger than the tenor trombone.  So this puts the poor 2nd Trombone at a disadvantage.  For maximum volume you can double the 2nd trombone part so it balances the 1st and bass when they are at "blastissimo".

Of course if you are only using 3 players it might be a good idea to ask the 1st and Bass to dial it back just a little... :/
Logged

Bruce Guttman
Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band
Section Ldr, Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orch.
JohnL
Edge Monster

*
Offline Offline

Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: Aug 1, 2004
Posts: 7147

View Profile WWW
« Reply #42 on: Jun 12, 2017, 12:13PM »

The trombone has more "presence" in the upper register (at least up to high C).  The bass trombone is much bigger than the tenor trombone.  So this puts the poor 2nd Trombone at a disadvantage.
The 2nd trombone could upsize to a King 5B, Holton TR-159, Bach Friedman, or similar extra-large symphony tenor. Of course, if the 1st trombone is already playing on something of that ilk, there's not much room for the 2nd to upsize without going to a small bass trombone.
Logged

Question change.
Embrace progress.
Take the time to learn the difference.
bigbassbone1

*
Offline Offline

Location: melbourne, australia
Joined: Sep 7, 2012
Posts: 869

View Profile
« Reply #43 on: Jun 12, 2017, 02:07PM »

I played this piece the OP is talking about with a brass band that I used to be in several years ago. I was quite a bit younger, and I remember needing to play quite a bit louder and broader that I was used to. We had Brett Baker from the black Dyke band on 1st and he really took no prisoners with the volume. I remember doing a lot of practice and breathing exercises to be able to blance up and blend. It was good for me.

We had 2 players on the 2nd part, but from memory that was less to do with volume and more to cover breaths across the whole program of music we were playing. I dont think we did anything weird with breaths in the opening.... anyway I found the recording on youtube in case you are interested, not sure if it sounds a similar volume to your experience or if its less. It definitely felt big at the time!

Extra note, we actually won the Australian A grade contest that year thats not helpful info of course just a good memory for me! :D

https://youtu.be/HZtXWIoDbQE
Logged
Hicks
*
Offline Offline

Location: UK
Joined: Jun 5, 2005
Posts: 112

View Profile
« Reply #44 on: Jun 12, 2017, 02:27PM »

I had wondered about that and now I have a theory:

The trombone has more "presence" in the upper register (at least up to high C).  The bass trombone is much bigger than the tenor trombone.  So this puts the poor 2nd Trombone at a disadvantage.  For maximum volume you can double the 2nd trombone part so it balances the 1st and bass when they are at "blastissimo".

Of course if you are only using 3 players it might be a good idea to ask the 1st and Bass to dial it back just a little... :/

Spot on, and exactly my points back then. But nobody actually took any notice of what I was saying. And no, there was no dialing back. Full on bastississimo.



Logged
bonesmarsh
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 22, 2007
Posts: 2109

View Profile
« Reply #45 on: Jun 12, 2017, 06:21PM »

More than one player on a part--- when played slightly, ever so slightly-- out of tune between the players makes the volume less, not more. It cancels out the volume, not adds to it.

Two players playing the same volume make the sound fuller, but no louder.

Brass bands have two players on a part -- Eb bass, BBb bass, euph, etc. etc-- to cover the divisi and fill the sound out with added harmony and doubling of voices in different octaves, not to double the volume.

If you want to be heard, play brighter, not louder. Not doubled-- brighter. Play with more projection, not louder.

****
The misinterpretation of trombone parts most guilty of this problem: the prevalence of players on bone 3 in a big band insisting on playing a .547 trombone if the upper voices bother to play smaller bore horns. Bone 3 isn't louder on a larger horn-- it is then lost.

****
The other huge place of misinformation in the trombone world: the trombone choir. For example when playing bone quartets with multiple players on the four parts.
1 on lead
2 on second to cover the divisi
12 on 3rd, because they can't play high enough to play lead, or low enough to play bass
2 or 3 on bass

If you want to create a kick-ass bone choir out of 18 players, where 12 are on 3rd bone, for the gig add one better bass trombonist to the 3rds, to hide the failings of the 3rds on tenor bone.
Sad, but true.
Logged
Hicks
*
Offline Offline

Location: UK
Joined: Jun 5, 2005
Posts: 112

View Profile
« Reply #46 on: Jun 13, 2017, 05:44AM »


If you want to be heard, play brighter, not louder. Not doubled-- brighter. Play with more projection, not louder.

Yes, and much, much easier to do that in the higher register of the instrument isn't it?
Logged
bonesmarsh
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 22, 2007
Posts: 2109

View Profile
« Reply #47 on: Jun 13, 2017, 05:24PM »

Yes, easier to do it in the upper register, where playing the top is always brighter. But it can be done on bass bone as well-- just avoid sounding like a euphonium. And that itself is another huge trick, that takes all the time in the world to do, and a lot of study with a master who can lead you into the secrets of bass projection without volume at ffffff....
Logged
savio

*
Offline Offline

Location: Norway
Joined: Aug 10, 2006
Posts: 5032

View Profile WWW
« Reply #48 on: Jun 13, 2017, 07:30PM »

I apologise in advance, this is a bit of a rant..
Coming from a brass band background, I can say that I was never ever able to play loud enough for the trom section in a championship section band I used to be a member of.
Here's an example: For one contest, we chose to play 'On Shoulders Of Giants'. A test piece stitched, together from bits of other famous pieces. It starts with the awesome low brass passage from Bruckner's 8th. It's magnificent. Except it wasn't, and I knew exactly what would happen when we performed it. You see the MD asked for maximum volume. And that's exactly what he got. Forget about balance, tuning, and ensemble. We ripped it. I said right from the start that no way could the second trombone (me), playing a mid-range concert Gb, balance up to the top trombone, at max volume.
And what do you know, the adjudicator's remarks proved me exactly right, because he faulted us on every single point I mentioned - balance, tuning and ensemble. It simply wasn't controlled.

And that's my point really. A lot of trombonists seem obsessed with producing a loud sound. There's no wonder that we're vilified by other sections of the orchestra, because I certainly wouldn't want to be sitting in front of some of the rackets I've heard coming out of certain trombone bells. I personally always strive to produce as beautiful sound as I can. To me that's more important than decibels. If I have to sacrifice volume to get the quality, and precision, I will. Yes the top players can produce a wondrously sounding, and controlled very loud sound, but my experience is that a lot of amateur players sound either raucous, out of tune, and just not very nice.
Plus, I don't get this attitude from some solo trombone players that they must always be heard above everyone else. It's like a bloody competition to see who can play loudest. FFS you're part of a section, and this means it must sound like three trombones in a harmonious, and balanced complete sound.

Sorry, rant over.



Im one of those that many times got a complain that I played too loud. When I played in a military band, we was two bass players. The other bass player claimed I always was louder and with his own words ; "you drown my sound"  I even got complain from the hole band, I was too loud. Maybe I was.

I think you should practice to play loud, with a full good sound. In fact, playing very soft and playing very loud is the same technique.

Leif
Logged

Bass Trombone - Conn, Holton
W/SBTRB
*
Offline Offline

Location: Winston-Salem, NC
Joined: Jun 15, 2007
Posts: 336

View Profile
« Reply #49 on: Jun 13, 2017, 07:45PM »

When I was younger (High school and college) volume was what I was all about. Time has changed my thoughts.........and my volume became less important and tone quality. I know make the following my motto: We are known by our tone. 
Logged

Ron Smith, D.M. A
Dean, School of Arts and Sciences
Piedmont International University, Winston-Salem, NC
Orchestra Director, Grace Baptist Church
Luke 9:23
Larry Preston Roberson
*
Offline Offline

Location: Georgia
Joined: May 24, 2016
Posts: 145

View Profile
« Reply #50 on: Jun 14, 2017, 05:30PM »

I had wondered about that and now I have a theory:

The trombone has more "presence" in the upper register (at least up to high C).  The bass trombone is much bigger than the tenor trombone.  So this puts the poor 2nd Trombone at a disadvantage.  For maximum volume you can double the 2nd trombone part so it balances the 1st and bass when they are at "blastissimo".

Of course if you are only using 3 players it might be a good idea to ask the 1st and Bass to dial it back just a little... :/

Good points/observations. In one of the ensembles I play in, we have four trombones. So, we typically double 2nd.
Logged
Hicks
*
Offline Offline

Location: UK
Joined: Jun 5, 2005
Posts: 112

View Profile
« Reply #51 on: Jun 26, 2017, 07:51AM »

I did a gig with a local orchestra on Saturday, which included New World Symphony.
Got to say it was a refreshing change to play in a section which didn't go OTT with volume. Sometimes the 1st trom tends to let rip and show what he can do. Not this time. Nice controlled, balanced section sound. Smack in tune. Wonderful stuff, and a pleasure to be part of.
Logged
BGuttman
Mad Chemist

*
*
Online Online

Location: Londonderry, NH, USA
Joined: Dec 12, 2000
Posts: 50380
"Almost Professional"


View Profile
« Reply #52 on: Jun 26, 2017, 10:50AM »

I did a gig with a local orchestra on Saturday, which included New World Symphony.
Got to say it was a refreshing change to play in a section which didn't go OTT with volume. Sometimes the 1st trom tends to let rip and show what he can do. Not this time. Nice controlled, balanced section sound. Smack in tune. Wonderful stuff, and a pleasure to be part of.


Did they have a tuba there for the 18 notes in the 2nd Movement?  At least half the time we don't use one; other times the Tuba player will play misc. percussion (triangle in 3rd mvt and one cymbal crash in the 4th).
Logged

Bruce Guttman
Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band
Section Ldr, Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orch.
SilverBone
Put the Cool in "Coulisse!"

*
Offline Offline

Location: Portland, OR
Joined: Sep 16, 2006
Posts: 3761

View Profile
« Reply #53 on: Jun 27, 2017, 01:59AM »

Did they have a tuba there for the 18 notes in the 2nd Movement? 

Did some enterprising soul write 4 new notes for the tuba?   Evil
Logged

-Howard

The nastiest fellow I've known
Smashed his trombone and ruined its tone.
There's a simple excuse
For his slush pump abuse:
He was born to be bad to the bone.
Hicks
*
Offline Offline

Location: UK
Joined: Jun 5, 2005
Posts: 112

View Profile
« Reply #54 on: Jun 27, 2017, 07:13AM »

Did they have a tuba there for the 18 notes in the 2nd Movement?  At least half the time we don't use one; other times the Tuba player will play misc. percussion (triangle in 3rd mvt and one cymbal crash in the 4th).

No, and that would have been the icing on the cake. But if there are only a handful of notes for tuba to play, I can fully understand why nobody was there, or they didn't bother asking anyone. But oh my, that extra depth would have made such a sublime sound in the gorgeous acoustics of the church.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3]  All   Go Up
Print
Jump to: