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Author Topic: Bach rim over the years  (Read 1265 times)
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Dixieland57
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« on: Jun 11, 2017, 08:02AM »

Hi, I would buy a Bach 6.5A large shank but in a near future I would buy a small bore horn and stay with a 6.5A because it's well suited for small bore and would be the same rim size as the one on my large shank, but does Bach have the same rim profile over the years, otherwise I buy simultaneously the 2 mouthpiece.

Thank you
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savio

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« Reply #1 on: Jun 13, 2017, 02:24AM »

The rim profile is different on nearly all bach mouthpieces, even those from same year. The only thing I noticed is the Mt Vernon Bach's I use, have more flat rim. But also they are different from each other.

Leif
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Dixieland57
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« Reply #2 on: Jun 13, 2017, 02:49AM »

Seriously?  :cry:
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Matt K

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« Reply #3 on: Jun 13, 2017, 03:26AM »

Bach pieces aren't known for consistency unfortunately. That may be why people find the magic one though.  FWIW, there are makers who have a 6.5 rim copied. Eg, you could order an Elliott with his 6.5 rim and two underpart. It would cost more but at least you'd have the same rim
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Pre59

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« Reply #4 on: Jun 13, 2017, 04:12AM »

When it comes to mouthpieces I wouldn't put my faith in VB's pieces. If you need to have duplicates it's safer to go with another company making their version of a 6.5.
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bonesmarsh
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« Reply #5 on: Jun 13, 2017, 06:10AM »

A pragmatic answer is to buy just one mouthpiece in a small shank size, add a small-to-large shank adapter to the large horn and use the same mouthpiece for both horns.

Remember to push the tuning slide in about 1/3" to allow for the extra length of the adapter in the large horn, but once you've got it there you can check with a tuner and just leave it the way you need it.

Also, remember, a large shank "A" is not the same as the small shank "A". The Bach numbering system has a glitch in it. Small shank "A" means smaller. Large shank "A" means larger.

The "AL" is the same for small and large shank. "A" is different, another reason to find one mouthpiece in a small shank.

If you want the best, and don't mind the expense, try the ARTISAN model Bach 6 1/2A. They also work great in a .547 horn -with adapter.
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Geezerhorn

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« Reply #6 on: Jun 13, 2017, 06:31AM »

A pragmatic answer is to buy just one mouthpiece in a small shank size, add a small-to-large shank adapter to the large horn and use the same mouthpiece for both horns.

Remember to push the tuning slide in about 1/3" to allow for the extra length of the adapter in the large horn, but once you've got it there you can check with a tuner and just leave it the way you need it.

Also, remember, a large shank "A" is not the same as the small shank "A". The Bach numbering system has a glitch in it. Small shank "A" means smaller. Large shank "A" means larger.

The "AL" is the same for small and large shank. "A" is different, another reason to find one mouthpiece in a small shank.

If you want the best, and don't mind the expense, try the ARTISAN model Bach 6 1/2A. They also work great in a .547 horn -with adapter.

Thank you!

...Geezer
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Matt K

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« Reply #7 on: Jun 13, 2017, 08:32AM »

That is correct about the 6.5AL. To clarify why Bach has such an odd inversion - the "L" specifies a specific backbore and throat. In order:

The 6.5A has a "Slightly larger than medium with standard-size throat and backbore" (.230" throat, #402 backbore)

The 6.5AL (small shank) has the same rim and cup as the 6.5A but has a "G" (.261" throat and #420 backbore.

The 6.5AL (large shank) likewise has the same rim and cup as a 6.5A but has the same "G" (.261") throat and #420 backbore that the small shank piece does.

The 6.5A (large shank) has the same rim and cup as 6.5A, but "with full bass trombone throat and backbore" (.276" throat and a #429 backbore.)
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Dixieland57
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« Reply #8 on: Jun 13, 2017, 10:15AM »

Yeah I know this difference between the A and AL version.

If rim profile between two same models of Bach mouthpiece is so uncontrollable, I think I will stay with my Hammond 13ML large shank, and buy a 13S when I will buy a small bore horn.
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Geezerhorn

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« Reply #9 on: Jun 13, 2017, 10:30AM »

Yeah I know this difference between the A and AL version.

If rim profile between two same models of Bach mouthpiece is so uncontrollable, I think I will stay with my Hammond 13ML large shank, and buy a 13S when I will buy a small bore horn.

I see that sentiment repeated often on this Forum. I don't know if it is the result of everyone making extremely accurate measurements or if it's just something that makes a good meme to mindlessly pass on. What forumites might be picking up on is a difference between the Mt Vernon, New York, Heritage and today's mouthpieces. I think there is a variance between those categories. Evolution?

While I think the Bach naming convention is quirky, I don't have any of the many Bach contemporary mouthpieces in my "collection" that seem to be out of whack or not what I thought they would be. I did buy a Heritage mouthpiece once and thought it was "out of whack" from my newer one of the same size, so maybe that is the variance everyone seems to either disdain or praise.

I stick with various sizes of Bachs b/c I want consistency in their rim shape. I've tried Dennis Wick but I seem to lose flexibility on their rim shape vs the Bach rim shape of similar size.

...Geezer
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bonesmarsh
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« Reply #10 on: Jun 13, 2017, 05:20PM »

Bach quality control:

I attended an ITA convention in '81 and '82, in Nashville. The Bach table was run and manned by Bach R&D guy L.F. No need to name him.

A prototype Bach 1 1/4GM was for sale, still in the little plastic bag in the paper box. I opened it up and noted that the shank had been reamed out razor thin on one side, and 1/4" thick on the other. The machining was so off-center it was almost diagonal!

I showed L.F. the botched mouthpiece. He snatched it out of my hand and shouted at me: "Then don't buy the f**king thing!"

Later that day a kid behind me in the mass bone choir was showing off his new prototype 1 1/4GM! Thanks L.M!! You opened my eyes.
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« Reply #11 on: Jun 14, 2017, 12:58AM »

You may find a good Bach mouthpiece. But you may not find another one like it.
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Pre59

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« Reply #12 on: Jun 14, 2017, 03:45AM »

I hope that "ntap" doesn't mind me mining his quote from another topic, the italics are mine.


Now I am playing a 6.5A for my main piece and have been for around four months now.  I bought four, and found one that works for me.  Sometimes I play my 11C when I need to get a
Again, some folks have the sound and concept where 11C totally works for everything - totally possible and wish I could do that.  I did over a year on just 11C mouthpieces on my small bore and made it work in every setting except jazz improvisation.   Even if you don't feel great on it, give it at least 3 months if you already feel it sounds the best.  I definitely achieved a workable level of comfort with my 11C foray and still pop one in when the time calls.

I've have owned around ten 11C's - my favorite is a NY Bach (I have two), the Marcinkiewicz Ian McDougall model, and a Greg Black 11C/9 rim (flat, wide rimmed 11C) that works well.  I also had a Bach Corp 11C (no period) that I foolishly put a Shires 5GS rim on.  Unbeknown to me, the company I had do that for me told me the original 11C rim was lost forever.  If you can find a Bach Corp from '65-'70, snatch it up. Mt Vernon Bachs are also very good.  

 My two cents.

ntap
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Dixieland57
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« Reply #13 on: Jun 14, 2017, 03:49AM »

Solo with all of this informations I confirm I will stay with my Hammond
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Geezerhorn

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« Reply #14 on: Jun 14, 2017, 08:14AM »

I expected to be taken to task for my above post and I have't been - - - - - - yet. So I had all of my penguins lined up in a row.

I find it curious and interesting that we not only evaluate, we publicly criticize probably the largest mouthpiece manufacturer in the world for rim size inconsistencies we perceive. And yet (correct me if I am wrong) I do not see a Bach rep coming onto this forum to do the same with the lesser manufacturers.

How many of us have a Bach mouthpiece? Probably 95%, I would wager. Bach. Walmart. The ones we love to hate. lol

...Geezer
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BGuttman
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« Reply #15 on: Jun 14, 2017, 08:31AM »

Bach has become the de facto standard.  We all talk sizes in terms of Bach mouthpieces.  Most trombones come with Bach mouthpieces or copies of Bach mouthpieces.  They earned their reputation 75 years ago.  Until fairly recently there weren't any consistent alternatives.  Makers come and go, but Bach is still there.

We complain about the differences, but largely it's because they tend to use cutting tools too long.  It's a way to keep the cost down, I guess, although the additional cost of using properly sharpened tools will not make the mouthpiece even as expensive as the "better" models.

There is a lot of "black art" in mouthpiece making.  What makes a great mouthpiece?  It's one that works for the player.  Most of us can't really sense the difference between a perfect mouthpiece and one that's OK.  We sure know a bad one, though.  Problem is what's bad for one may not be bad for another.  So we have little variations from Hammond, Laskey, Stork, Griego, Black, ...  You will (hopefully) find one that's best for you.
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Geezerhorn

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« Reply #16 on: Jun 14, 2017, 08:48AM »

I agree.

Yes, most of us would probably be unable to tell the differences in slight rim size variances. And that is why I stay on Bachs. I would rather my chops deal with any slight rim size variances than to adjust to a whole 'nuther form of variance from a different manufacturer.

I personally don't have much of a problem swapping wildly from one size to another. In fact, I'm notorious for it. And I know plenty of other 'bone players who swap out - even during a performance. So any negligible rim size variance - for me - is exactly that; negligible.

Others may differ.

...Geezer
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Pre59

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« Reply #17 on: Jun 14, 2017, 11:27AM »

I've got the impression that pieces made CNC lathes are more consistent, is that not true?
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BGuttman
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« Reply #18 on: Jun 14, 2017, 12:00PM »

I've got the impression that pieces made CNC lathes are more consistent, is that not true?

CNC positioners are consistent.  Cutters wear, so the position required for a worn cutter is different from a new cutter.  As cutters wear either you build in a compensation program or you replace them (and maybe resharpen).
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Bruce Guttman
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