Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

 
Advanced search

1086890 Posts in 71947 Topics- by 19229 Members - Latest Member: Alfred
Jump to:  
Pages: [1] 2 3 4  All   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: On Mouthpiece Buzzing  (Read 4197 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
BillO
A trombone is not measured by it's name.

*
Offline Offline

Location: Ontario Canada
Joined: Jun 24, 2015
Posts: 3255

View Profile
« on: Jun 16, 2017, 02:01PM »

Hmmm...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fz5fow-pf68

Logged

Never look at the conductor. You just encourage them.

Have you noticed, some folk never stick around to help tidy up after practice?
Geezerhorn

*
Offline Offline

Location: PA
Joined: Feb 9, 2012
Posts: 5557
"Lego My Trombone"


View Profile
« Reply #1 on: Jun 16, 2017, 02:04PM »

One. More. Time.  Yeah, RIGHT.

...Geezer
Logged
bonenick

*
Offline Offline

Location: Antalya, Turkey
Joined: Nov 29, 2016
Posts: 802
"Life is change. Growth is optional. Choose wisely."


View Profile WWW
« Reply #2 on: Jun 16, 2017, 02:16PM »

That's more or less the Gordon/Anderson approach - we don't buzz, we blow against a vibrating tissue (our lips). After my student years I always found that thinking of playing a brass instrument seem to be closer to blowing or singing than buzzing. I've done a decent amount of buzzing, because I was told so, but never really saw any tremendous benefits out of it. The only benefit if any, I felt from buzzing on the mouthpiece was that it improved my intonation by freeing my from the crotches of the valves. But I guess that I could actually do the same by singing or even whistling.
Logged
BillO
A trombone is not measured by it's name.

*
Offline Offline

Location: Ontario Canada
Joined: Jun 24, 2015
Posts: 3255

View Profile
« Reply #3 on: Jun 16, 2017, 02:17PM »

One. More. Time.  Yeah, RIGHT.

...Geezer
I do apologize.
Logged

Never look at the conductor. You just encourage them.

Have you noticed, some folk never stick around to help tidy up after practice?
bonearzt

*
Offline Offline

Location: Denton-Dallas/Ft.Worth TX
Joined: Oct 23, 2004
Posts: 4104
"UTEP Alumni/Legend in my own mind!"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #4 on: Jun 16, 2017, 02:20PM »

Personally I buzz my mouthpiece when I'm driving to a gig or rehearsal as a good warm up,  but no more than ten minutes tops!

As always:

If it works for you , great if not,  don't.

But DON"T discourage others from trying just because it's not beneficial to you!!!!



Eric
Logged

Eric, Leandra, Sara, Jared & Lily
Edwards
"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price has faded!"
"If you're doing something a certain way ONLY because it's always been done that way,  you're probably doing it wrong!"
harrison.t.reed
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colorado
Joined: Apr 5, 2007
Posts: 2691
"Spartan Brass Band!"


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: Jun 16, 2017, 04:48PM »

 :D
Logged

"My technique is as good as Initial D"
T-396A - Griego 1C
88HTCL - Griego 1C
36H - DE XT105, C+, D Alto Shank
3B/F Silversonic - Griego 1A ss
pBone (with Yellow bell for bright tone)
goldentone
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Dec 11, 2013
Posts: 182

View Profile
« Reply #6 on: Jun 16, 2017, 05:36PM »

Almost every player that I think plays great or has a sound that I desire buzzes the mouthpiece. You just have to make sure you understand it's a different setting from the setting you use while playing the horn. Also, don't buzz too much. Everything in moderation.
Logged
BillO
A trombone is not measured by it's name.

*
Offline Offline

Location: Ontario Canada
Joined: Jun 24, 2015
Posts: 3255

View Profile
« Reply #7 on: Jun 16, 2017, 06:22PM »

Well, I don't buzz, so I guess I suck.

I spend the time available to me making sounds on a trombone, not trying to do duck calls on a mouthpiece.  I'm just glad someone agrees with me.  It seems they are rare people indeed.  It is satisfying that in this case it is Mr. Lindberg.
Logged

Never look at the conductor. You just encourage them.

Have you noticed, some folk never stick around to help tidy up after practice?
Doug Elliott
Lord of the Rims

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: Mar 12, 2005
Posts: 6657

View Profile
« Reply #8 on: Jun 16, 2017, 06:50PM »

I don't buzz on the mouthpiece and I think in most cases there are more productive ways to spend your time, both on the horn and freebuzzing, but Lindberg's logic is flawed.  If you watch very carefully, he changes his chops and that's the real reason his "demonstration" doesn't work.
Logged

www.DougElliottMouthpieces.com
XT LexanN104,C+,D2, Williams 6, K&H Slokar alto, K&H Slokar Solo .547 open wrap
norbie2009

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 12, 2009
Posts: 196

View Profile
« Reply #9 on: Jun 16, 2017, 06:58PM »

There are some who state you get the most use out of buzzing by relating it directly to the trombone. So, buzz a phrase, now without changing the mp relationship on the lips insert the mp into the instrument and play. It works.
Logged

Still, the only certain thing for sure is what I do not know. -Lyle Lovett
bigbassbone1

*
Offline Offline

Location: Los Angeles, CA
Joined: Sep 7, 2012
Posts: 955

View Profile
« Reply #10 on: Jun 16, 2017, 07:04PM »

I am always amazed when I hear people actively talk against buzzing.... Its definitely a what works for you thing, but surely between mouthpiece, free or leadpipe buzzing anyone can find some benefit.

I think its just such a useful tool. For pitch I think its better than singing or whistling because whilst it is a bit different to "exactly" how you play on the instrument, you are training your brain to make all the right actions. Hear the pitch, and translate it into your air and lip vibration. Sure, it might not be "identical" to how your lips are when you actually play trombone, but the adjustment is so small and the concepts (I think ) should be identical, so really it shouldn't negatively affect you at all....
It helps easily identify whether you have a strady air flow or not, it really shows if you have a problem with immediacy of sound, it shows up more clearly than on the instrument if you have trouble connecting registers.... I feel like the list just goes on.
Logged
BillO
A trombone is not measured by it's name.

*
Offline Offline

Location: Ontario Canada
Joined: Jun 24, 2015
Posts: 3255

View Profile
« Reply #11 on: Jun 16, 2017, 07:25PM »

So, what's the rational then?  Why would buzzing your lips on anything other than your instrument help you with the instrument?  Or, in other words, if you have X minutes to spend why would X minutes buzzing without a trombone be better than X minutes buzzing with a trombone?
Logged

Never look at the conductor. You just encourage them.

Have you noticed, some folk never stick around to help tidy up after practice?
ALT
« Reply #12 on: Jun 16, 2017, 07:39PM »

I don't think I've ever seen anyone who is pro-buzz or anti-buzz make a demonstration where I'm completely convinced that they haven't changed anything between any form of their buzz and their playing of the instrument, and I'm not convinced that it's entirely possible to do so.

Some excellent players who advocate for/against buzzing, and I don't think it's fair to discredit anyone (...within reason) on their own personal approach to the instrument, especially if they have the chops to back it up!
Logged
harrison.t.reed
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colorado
Joined: Apr 5, 2007
Posts: 2691
"Spartan Brass Band!"


View Profile
« Reply #13 on: Jun 16, 2017, 08:12PM »

If you try it, you can recreate the results. I experience the same result -- I don't think the embouchure changes so much as the resistance that helped form the embouchure suddenly is removed. It's possible that there is a type of player who can't recreate the results, which I had brought up in the unpopular "type 1 vs type 2 thread" (which was about air and where the player tries to derive resistance that creates their sound). The real takeaway from the video is that Lindberg and Sauer don't advocate buzzing, and they both have credentials to back up whatever they say. On the other hand, someone like Charlie Vernon does advocate buzzing and also has the chops to back up what he says ... so ...This is such a tired old subject....
Logged

"My technique is as good as Initial D"
T-396A - Griego 1C
88HTCL - Griego 1C
36H - DE XT105, C+, D Alto Shank
3B/F Silversonic - Griego 1A ss
pBone (with Yellow bell for bright tone)
Ellrod

*
Offline Offline

Location: North
Joined: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 6358

View Profile
« Reply #14 on: Jun 16, 2017, 08:23PM »

I use to be a believer [in buzzing] but I'm less of one these days. I find a little bit of mpc buzzing (5 minutes or so using an 8" length of PVC tuning - a Sauer F.A.R.T.) helpful as part of my warmup.

Logged
ALT
« Reply #15 on: Jun 16, 2017, 08:44PM »

...This is such a tired old subject....


Nailed it.
Logged
bigbassbone1

*
Offline Offline

Location: Los Angeles, CA
Joined: Sep 7, 2012
Posts: 955

View Profile
« Reply #16 on: Jun 16, 2017, 08:51PM »

If you try it, you can recreate the results. I experience the same result -- I don't think the embouchure changes so much as the resistance that helped form the embouchure suddenly is removed. It's possible that there is a type of player who can't recreate the results, which I had brought up in the unpopular "type 1 vs type 2 thread" (which was about air and where the player tries to derive resistance that creates their sound). The real takeaway from the video is that Lindberg and Sauer don't advocate buzzing, and they both have credentials to back up whatever they say. On the other hand, someone like Charlie Vernon does advocate buzzing and also has the chops to back up what he says ... so ...This is such a tired old subject....


It may be tired and old, but I think its worth discussing regularly! New people join the forum everyday looking for easily accessible info, and people read through with no intention of posting just taking ideas. Sure they could use the search function, but the amount of times i have been given "old info" in regards to trombone playing that is just said in a slightly different way, well.... it can create some amazing lightbulb moments for players.
Logged
bigbassbone1

*
Offline Offline

Location: Los Angeles, CA
Joined: Sep 7, 2012
Posts: 955

View Profile
« Reply #17 on: Jun 16, 2017, 09:07PM »

So, what's the rational then?  Why would buzzing your lips on anything other than your instrument help you with the instrument?  Or, in other words, if you have X minutes to spend why would X minutes buzzing without a trombone be better than X minutes buzzing with a trombone?

As I said, I just think of it as a practice tool. Going by your logic in this post, why would you do breathing exercises without a trombone on your face? You will breathe differently with a mouthpiece in the way and weight on your bodys left side. Why do air attacks on the trombone? You wouldn't not use the tongue when articulating (unless its a very specific circumstance).

When I buzz (free, mouthpiece, whatever) it helps me MENTALLY expect immediate resonance. Sure you can do that with the entire trombone, but i find articulating a short crisp note that is dead on the pitch, in time really takes more focus to achieve on just the mouthpiece. If I can do that on the mouthpiece, I find it translates very well to the instrument. It doesn't matter if my face is "slightly different" when the mouthpiece is in the trombone, if my brain is used to expecting a certain sound in a certain way those differences dont get in the way. I find doing an exercise like that speeds up the process of getting that sound on my instrument. Sure, I could do it without the mouthpiece, but it takes longer and certain "problems" are not as easily identifiable on the instrument than they are with just the mouthpiece.

Similarly, if I have a legato passage where some slurs through harmonics aren't quite as smooth as I would like, I will buzz it. Again, I could practice the passage over and over on the trombone, but if I take the mouthpiece and really keep an even sound, with consistent airflow through all slurs (with no harmonics to "bump" along the way) I can quickly tranfer those attributes back into the trombone more easily. Its just faster at identifying an issue and putting it in the spotlight to work on it. Its not great for everything, but I would be surprised if after buzzing to practice immediacy of sound, stable pitch and consistent airflow you didn't see improvement after putting it back in the instrument.
Logged
Ellrod

*
Offline Offline

Location: North
Joined: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 6358

View Profile
« Reply #18 on: Jun 16, 2017, 09:17PM »

This is such a tired old subject....

Yet, you still managed to find $.02.

Logged
growlerbox
Just a clown with an axe

*
Offline Offline

Location: Wellington, New Zealand
Joined: Feb 1, 2012
Posts: 986

View Profile
« Reply #19 on: Jun 16, 2017, 09:32PM »

Another take on the subject from Bob McChesney, interviewed on the subject by Paul the Trombonist:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHohOqu4qPM

He didn't do it when he was younger, but does now, and appears to find it a useful way of identifying problems with air flow and finding pitches/partials.  He acknowledges that the chops are not set in exactly the same way as they would be on the horn, but this is of secondary importance, because from this perspective, the aim isn't really a matter of correcting embouchure problems as such.

Makes some sense.
Logged

If it's not worth doing, it's not worth doing well.
Pages: [1] 2 3 4  All   Go Up
Print
Jump to: