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The Trombone ForumTeaching & LearningPractice Room(Moderator: blast) What are the tuning tendencies of partials above high Bb?
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trb420
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« on: Jun 22, 2017, 06:38PM »

title.
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« Reply #1 on: Jun 22, 2017, 09:44PM »

title.
Very dependent on the instrument.  Slide positions will vary greatly from one horn to another in that region.  This where design and execution of design begin to make a huge difference and explains why some instruments have and 'easy' high range and others more strenuous.  If you intend to be an extreme upper register player you will have to be very particular about your instrument and MP choices.

One King 2B may end up being very different than another King 2B when you want to play a high E or #f.  If this is where you want to live you'll spend a lot of time finding a horn that works just right for you  and you'll hold onto it as though it was your last breath.  (yeah, slight exaggeration ... but only slight)
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« Reply #2 on: Jun 23, 2017, 02:35AM »

I've found that it helps to think of the notes above and including the high D as a new harmonic series. So play the high D in a b2nd and the F should be right above it and in tune. The F sharp is clear and stable on a sharp 2nd pos, as is the Eb. The troublesome E is around a slightly flat 3rd. The Eb works in third but can be a little "squirrely"..

A range building exercise I use is lip slurring the high C to the Eb to the E, changing the sequence around.
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« Reply #3 on: Jun 23, 2017, 03:02AM »

Every trombone is different. Don't worry about what harmonics tend to be... find out what they are on your instrument. Your ear is your friend.... I hope.

Chris Stearn
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« Reply #4 on: Jun 23, 2017, 03:34AM »

Every trombone is different. Don't worry about what harmonics tend to be... find out what they are on your instrument. Your ear is your friend.... I hope.

Chris Stearn

Also, your eyes can be your enemy! Practice with your eyes closed-it makes you listen more and also stops you looking at where you are placing the slide and thinking "No, third position is a bit further out!"

When I was teaching trombone, I used to say that there were 3 stages to learning positions and slide technique:-

1) Reading the note third space up is E so that is???? 2nd position by which time the note had gone!

2) Reading the note and going automatically to the position.

3) Ignoring the slide position chart you used for the first two stages and playing the note in tune, wherever that happened to be on the slide.

Above high Bb there are so many different options

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« Reply #5 on: Jun 23, 2017, 03:47AM »

I believe that most modern trombone designers try to make trombones with partials line-up as close to the overtoneseries as possible. If that was posible we could a slidepositions chart that should be the same for all trombones. Atually there is no chart that is true for all trombones allready in the low range, and the higher we go the more trombones differ even in the same models. And a change of mpc can make a difference. And different players get different result with the same horn and mpc.
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« Reply #6 on: Jun 23, 2017, 03:50AM »

You can calculate for yourself what the 'ideal' tuning of any harmonic is - it's not complex, and it gives you an answer that is not usually a million miles off what happens in reality.

1) Take your partial number, P.
Let's use P=5 as an example, the 5th partial D on one leger line above the bass staff for a Bb tenor instrument.
2) Find the highest power of 2 less than P.
In our example the highest power of 2 less than 5 is 2: 2^2 = 4
3) Divide P by this. This tells us how far through the octave the partial is as a pitch ratio.
5/4 = 1.25
4) Take log to the base 2 of this, and multiply it by 1200. This tells us how far through the octave the partial is in 100ths of a semitone ("cents"). Note that the easiest way to calculate log to base 2 of a number is to take the usual log, and then divide the result of that by log(2).
1200 * log(1.25) / log(2) = 386.314
5) Now convert it back to pitches. 0=Bb, 100=B, 200=C, ..., 1100=A, 1200=Bb again, assuming equal temperament.
400 cents = D, so 386 cents = D 14 cents flat

Our example shows us why that 5th partial often needs shortening on the slide - although practical experience also tells us that this amount varies between trombone models.

It's instructive and fun (if you like that sort of thing...) to play around with these. I've enclosed here a table with 'ideal' tunings up to the 16th partial:

Partial numberTuning in centsNote
10pedal Bb
20low Bb
3702F 1/50 semitone sharp
40middle Bb
5386D 1/7 semitone flat
6702F 1/50 semitone sharp
7969Ab 1/3 semitone flat
80high Bb
9204C 1/25 semitone sharp
10386D 1/7 semitone flat
11551Eb quarter tone sharp / E quarter tone flat
12702F 1/50 semitone sharp
13841Gb 2/5 semitone sharp
14969Ab 1/3 semitone flat
151088A 1/8 semitone flat
160super Bb

One can immediately see that often the unadjusted 1st position isn't likely to be the best option for many notes. But as everyone's been saying, theory tends to differ more from practice in this register than lower down.
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« Reply #7 on: Jun 23, 2017, 03:57AM »

I've found that it helps to think of the notes above and including the high D as a new harmonic series. So play the high D in a b2nd and the F should be right above it and in tune. The F sharp is clear and stable on a sharp 2nd pos, as is the Eb. The troublesome E is around a slightly flat 3rd. The Eb works in third but can be a little "squirrely"..

A range building exercise I use is lip slurring the high C to the Eb to the E, changing the sequence around.

Even though all trombone are different, what Pre59 write does come close on many horns.
Palmer Traulse, a Danish trombone legend did say allmost the same thing.
D 2,5 F 2,4 Db 3,5 E 3,4 Eb 1,5. That is close to theory about overtoneseries, but some trombones are way different. To really find out you have to have a good embouchure.
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« Reply #8 on: Jun 23, 2017, 05:09AM »

Dave,
I think you've made an invalid assumption here - your math is correct but it assumes partials line up the same as overtones, and they don't. 

Doug said that high F# speaks fine if you put the slide in the right spot.  I believe him, just can't seem to find that spot.   :/
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« Reply #9 on: Jun 23, 2017, 05:11AM »

Now, it also depends on you and your mouthpiece.

There are players who know the go sharp on everything above that Bb so they pull everuthing out. There are also factors in the mouthpiece design that can make it tend sharp or flat as well.
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« Reply #10 on: Jun 23, 2017, 05:32AM »

Play long positions and use your ear. I strive for an in tune in first position. From there all other positions will be far out from the bumpers.
Theory is one thing and practical playing the note is another thing. You need a strong embouchure to play the notes up there and an even stronger embouchure to feel the sweet spot. If you can do the note with a nice slide vibrato then you have a strong embouchure. If the short slide movements does not matter then your emboshure may not be strong enough and you might not feel the difference.

/Tom
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« Reply #11 on: Jun 23, 2017, 05:37AM »

Dave,
I think you've made an invalid assumption here - your math is correct but it assumes partials line up the same as overtones, and they don't. 


I thought I'd put in enough disclaimers about theory and practice to make this clear to the reader...
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« Reply #12 on: Jun 23, 2017, 05:48AM »



I thought I'd put in enough disclaimers about theory and practice to make this clear to the reader...

From a lot of previous discussions, it seems this is not at all clear to most players. 
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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #13 on: Jun 23, 2017, 07:47AM »


Doug said that high F# speaks fine if you put the slide in the right spot.  I believe him, just can't seem to find that spot.   :/

Try sharp 2nd, works on all of my horns.
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« Reply #14 on: Jun 23, 2017, 08:13AM »

Try sharp 2nd, works on all of my horns.

Is that better then flatt 1st?  Evil
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« Reply #15 on: Jun 23, 2017, 09:40AM »

Is that better then flatt 1st?  Evil

 Oh yes, MUCH better..  :)
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« Reply #16 on: Jun 23, 2017, 12:02PM »

Try sharp 2nd, works on all of my horns.

Including the alto?
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« Reply #17 on: Jun 23, 2017, 01:16PM »

Including the alto?

I don't own an Alto.
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« Reply #18 on: Jun 25, 2017, 11:58PM »

All my trombones are different up in the partials. Above the high Bb i play all notes in first when i do lip slurs. Strange enough I get up to F but doesn't have much control up there. But all you tenor players, isn't it possible to make Bb, C, D Eb, F, all in first?

The D partial above the staff is a little high on my 60h but tiny bit flat on my Holton 180. The F partial is high on all my trombones.
I noticed im often a little bit high in pitch above the staff. Especially around Eb , E and F. Have to lower them with the slide.

Leif
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« Reply #19 on: Jun 26, 2017, 01:48AM »

But all you tenor players, isn't it possible to make Bb, C, D Eb, F, all in first?

Leif


Bb,C,D,and F are all fine in 1st(near enough!) but Eb I find is halfway between 1st and 2nd.

You can calculate for yourself what the 'ideal' tuning of any harmonic is - it's not complex, and it gives you an answer that is not usually a million miles off what happens in reality.

1) Take your partial number, P.
Let's use P=5 as an example, the 5th partial D on one leger line above the bass staff for a Bb tenor instrument.
2) Find the highest power of 2 less than P.
In our example the highest power of 2 less than 5 is 2: 2^2 = 4
3) Divide P by this. This tells us how far through the octave the partial is as a pitch ratio.
5/4 = 1.25
4) Take log to the base 2 of this, and multiply it by 1200. This tells us how far through the octave the partial is in 100ths of a semitone ("cents"). Note that the easiest way to calculate log to base 2 of a number is to take the usual log, and then divide the result of that by log(2).
1200 * log(1.25) / log(2) = 386.314
5) Now convert it back to pitches. 0=Bb, 100=B, 200=C, ..., 1100=A, 1200=Bb again, assuming equal temperament.
400 cents = D, so 386 cents = D 14 cents flat

Our example shows us why that 5th partial often needs shortening on the slide - although practical experience also tells us that this amount varies between trombone models.

It's instructive and fun (if you like that sort of thing...) to play around with these. I've enclosed here a table with 'ideal' tunings up to the 16th partial:

Partial numberTuning in centsNote
10pedal Bb
20low Bb
3702F 1/50 semitone sharp
40middle Bb
5386D 1/7 semitone flat
6702F 1/50 semitone sharp
7969Ab 1/3 semitone flat
80high Bb
9204C 1/25 semitone sharp
10386D 1/7 semitone flat
11551Eb quarter tone sharp / E quarter tone flat
12702F 1/50 semitone sharp
13841Gb 2/5 semitone sharp
14969Ab 1/3 semitone flat
151088A 1/8 semitone flat
160super Bb

One can immediately see that often the unadjusted 1st position isn't likely to be the best option for many notes. But as everyone's been saying, theory tends to differ more from practice in this register than lower down.

 Amazed Amazed :-0 Eeek! Confused So that's why trombones are so difficult to learn to play. You need a Doctorate in Maths, Further Maths and Even Harder Sums(and a big calculator!)

Cheers

Stewbones
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« Reply #20 on: Jun 26, 2017, 06:57AM »

Lol, 'sooopuh Bb'

I guarantee you that that note is different from 0c. Your example is talking about a theoretically perfect harmonic and doesn't take into account any variables (like an imperfect player).
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« Reply #21 on: Jun 26, 2017, 06:57AM »

Quote from: savio link=topic=100713.msg1200426#msg1200426

Above the high Bb i play all notes in first when i do lip slurs. Strange enough I get up to F but doesn't have much control up there. But all you tenor players, isn't it possible to make Bb, C, D Eb, F, all in first?


To me Bb, C, D, Eb slots in first-ish position. D is at the bumpers and Eb is a flat 1st. Both Bb and C are a bit away from the bumpers, but this is me and I play long positions. To me high F is better on a very flat 2:nd but can be played in first position.

/Tom
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« Reply #22 on: Jun 26, 2017, 07:08AM »

Lol, 'sooopuh Bb'

I guarantee you that that note is different from 0c. Your example is talking about a theoretically perfect harmonic and doesn't take into account any variables (like an imperfect player).

Soooooooo suuuuuuper... "Double", if you prefer. Or "squeezy". Or "Hey, that's low Bb to me, get with the programme, wuss".

I'll remind what the thread question is:
What are the tuning tendencies of partials above high Bb?
The OP is explicitly asking about the theory.
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« Reply #23 on: Jun 26, 2017, 08:24AM »

Part of the problem is that manufacturers generally try to get all the partials to work from pedals to high Bb, which is considered a "normal" range for a tenor trombone.  The farther you get above high Bb, the more the compensations built into the horn start to break down.  The compensations are different for different makers (and sometimes are build dependent) so while we can generally use the same positions from high Bb to F above, the stratosphere is anybody's guess.

My suggestion?  Put in a French Horn mouthpiece and stick your hand in the bell Evil Evil Evil
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« Reply #24 on: Jun 30, 2017, 10:44AM »

Bruce, you're not too far off the mark with the french horn approach, the most secure high D on my instrument is with the trigger depressed! Maybe I should try reaching down the bell and see if I can pull a better note out...
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« Reply #25 on: Jun 30, 2017, 12:52PM »


What are the tuning tendencies of partials above high Bb?
The OP is explicitly asking about the theory.

The D in 1st can often be flat..
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