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ronkny

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« Reply #1080 on: Aug 27, 2017, 07:25AM »


Clearly, PM, your point is not welcome, partly because it's been too well made which makes it harder to "address" convincingly enough to be easily dismissed. That means it will cause labor either in terms of coming up with a better excuse to ignore it, or it will take a bigger chunk out of the armor that protects the sacred cows inside.
 
Fortunately, since Ronkny's pointed out the well established and clearly non fallacious fact that older information is more valid, we can look back to which religious tradition has the most authority.
 
 --
 
Just a note:
Religion - X Axis
Age in Years - Y Axis

 
Or maybe we'll just go with a different standard for graphs ...
Hey Neidermeyer.  Your post completely misses the point because you too, have never read any of those either. And I am talking about Christianity.  In case you missed that.
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« Reply #1081 on: Aug 27, 2017, 03:32PM »

Yeah, Hebrews, but doesn't John 20:29 apply, as well as some other references?  I'm not cherry picking one verse, I'm pointing to a body of Christian doctrine that claims to be scripturally based. 

Tim, I'm not sure exactly what your point is about this text.  The point Jesus is making is the difference between those who have physically seen and touched, such as Thomas, and  those who will believe on the basis of testimony.  There is certainly a difference, but the latter is not without evidence.  All of us regularly believe things on the basis of the testimony of others and don't say that it is blind credulity if we believe that the testimony is trustworthy.
« Last Edit: Aug 28, 2017, 05:09AM by John the Theologian » Logged
Baron von Bone
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« Reply #1082 on: Aug 28, 2017, 05:03AM »

Hey Neidermeyer.  Your post completely misses the point because you too, have never read any of those either. And I am talking about Christianity.  In case you missed that.

It's okay if you deny sorry thinking at first, as long as you can learn from it eventually.
 
It's what real adults do ... at least generally speaking.
 
Pseudo-adults just plow on in denial. The problem is that denial doesn't actually effect the outside world. It just means you're struggling against allowing certain aspects of reality to inform your thinking, and that's not real smart--not real effective either. But many "adults" never learn this basic lesson. They tend to be more angry and frustrated than most--many invest in a persecution delusion to compensate. And most unfortunately, a lot of them vote.
 
So don't worry about temporary denial--that's just the unhealthy part of the ego trying to assert itself. The healthy ego will eventually calm and quiet the unhealthy, and then we learn ... although that does depend on enough healthy ego (manifest as intellectual humility) to keep the unhealthy ego from doing the opposite.
 
At least that model certainly seems to fit the data.
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« Reply #1083 on: Aug 29, 2017, 10:28AM »

It's what real adults do ... at least generally speaking.
 
Pseudo-adults just plow on in denial.

No true scotsman... or should that be, no REAL scotsman?
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« Reply #1084 on: Aug 29, 2017, 12:11PM »

No true scotsman... or should that be, no REAL scotsman?

It's definitional and/or opinion. It's stand-alone--not used to make an argument, just a statement that this is how I define real vs. pseudo-adults. It's used here as a more oblique/gentler way to say someone is behaving like an infant though, basically.
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« Reply #1085 on: Aug 29, 2017, 02:28PM »

It's definitional and/or opinion. It's stand-alone--not used to make an argument, just a statement that this is how I define real vs. pseudo-adults. It's used here as a more oblique/gentler way to say someone is behaving like an infant though, basically.

So you use fallacies to name call. Great way to try to make someone else look bad, but end up having that result on you.

Also... name calling is a common resort of children losing an argument. If you are trying to appear the adult, or on higher ground... may another approach would better serve you ;-)
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« Reply #1086 on: Aug 29, 2017, 03:16PM »

So you use fallacies to name call. Great way to try to make someone else look bad, but end up having that result on you.
 
Also... name calling is a common resort of children losing an argument. If you are trying to appear the adult, or on higher ground... may another approach would better serve you ;-)


Is English not your native language Bob--maybe somehow just not your native reading language--or are you really capable of this level of selective perception?
 
You have demonstrated tremendous difficulty with understanding what exactly a fallacy is though. Well ... under circumstances like this anyway.
 
 ... or what an argument is ... that may be the problem. You do seem to see any comment you disagree with as an argument.
 
Do you have a local JC that offers critical thinking philosophy classes?
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« Reply #1087 on: Aug 29, 2017, 04:27PM »



Is English not your native language Bob--maybe somehow just not your native reading language--or are you really capable of this level of selective perception?
 
You have demonstrated tremendous difficulty with understanding what exactly a fallacy is though. Well ... under circumstances like this anyway.
 
 ... or what an argument is ... that may be the problem. You do seem to see any comment you disagree with as an argument.
 
Do you have a local JC that offers critical thinking philosophy classes?
STOP WITH THE CRITICAL THINKING BS! Good grief. Don't you get it? How many years has it been? No one on this forum wants to be told how they are thinking or what they are thinking. Or lectured. Debate the topic. Not the poster. Why can't you do that? Why?
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« Reply #1088 on: Aug 29, 2017, 07:33PM »

STOP WITH THE CRITICAL THINKING BS! Good grief. Don't you get it? How many years has it been?
Oh I'm well aware most of my fans tend to be upset by critical thinking, at least if it's equitably applied and one of their sacred cows gets in the way--it's kind of a definitive characteristic of the club. Most others aren't so traumatized by it though, as hard as that may be for one of my fans to recognize, much less realize.
 
No one on this forum wants to be told how they are thinking or what they are thinking. Or lectured. Debate the topic. Not the poster. Why can't you do that? Why?
Heh ... nice!
 
   Good!
 
If you could think very critically at all where you're at all invested you'd know better than to presume everyone agrees with you on this, particularly when it's patently obvious very few agree with you--at least regarding the notion that it should be ignored when someone consistently demonstrates highly undisciplined and downright negligent thinking. You probably haven't noticed, but that's a very common meta topic where my fans are involved, oddly enough ... whether or not I'm ignoring club members at the time.
 
As is often the case, you provide a strikingly timely, astonishingly oblivious demonstration of precisely the opposite of the point you think you're making. You may not get it, but others recognize why, in the best Don't let this happen to you! tradition, that demonstrates the value of developing our critical thinking skills, as so many of your posts do ... besides just being pretty amusing. It's taken the cartoon president and what that's done for the rise of the Alt-Right/Alternative Facts Deplorable Cre for many, but patience with intellectual laziness and negligence and malignancy has become a lot less popular than it was just a year ago. Hopefully the correction that's going to happen sooner or later is well under way now. You may find it getting a lot less comfortable in your bubble for a while. It'll be a very good thing. But I may be getting a bit optimistic.
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« Reply #1089 on: Aug 29, 2017, 08:06PM »

Oh I'm well aware most of my fans tend to be upset by critical thinking, at least if it's equitably applied and one of their sacred cows gets in the way--it's kind of a definitive characteristic of the club. Most others aren't so traumatized by it though, as hard as that may be for one of my fans to recognize, much less realize.
 Heh ... nice!
 
   Good!
 
If you could think very critically at all where you're at all invested you'd know better than to presume everyone agrees with you on this, particularly when it's patently obvious very few agree with you--at least regarding the notion that it should be ignored when someone consistently demonstrates highly undisciplined and downright negligent thinking. You probably haven't noticed, but that's a very common meta topic where my fans are involved, oddly enough ... whether or not I'm ignoring club members at the time.
 
As is often the case, you provide a strikingly timely, astonishingly oblivious demonstration of precisely the opposite of the point you think you're making. You may not get it, but others recognize why, in the best Don't let this happen to you! tradition, that demonstrates the value of developing our critical thinking skills, as so many of your posts do ... besides just being pretty amusing. It's taken the cartoon president and what that's done for the rise of the Alt-Right/Alternative Facts Deplorable Cre for many, but patience with intellectual laziness and negligence and malignancy has become a lot less popular than it was just a year ago. Hopefully the correction that's going to happen sooner or later is well under way now. You may find it getting a lot less comfortable in your bubble for a while. It'll be a very good thing. But I may be getting a bit optimistic.
Is that 15 now?
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« Reply #1090 on: Aug 29, 2017, 08:17PM »

No PM.  Ever read the Catechism? Aquinas? Augustine? Merton?
No? I didn't think so.  Save your snark.

It doesn't matter if I've read those (and I've read some of them, because I'm well-read, and used to be religious).

But that has nothing to do with my point, which is that the age of religion doesn't truly lend it venerability. There's lots of dogma far older than Catholicism and I don't expect you to automatically embrace it.

Freud largely invented psychoanalysis as a treatment for mental illness. Many of his central ideas are now widely discredited, and he appears to have invented some of his data and done a lot of his early work while high on cocaine.

But he was there at the beginning. Are we required to give him credit over newer, more refined explanations and treatments? I don't think so.

My post was intended as humor, not 'snark'. You can't get that mad over four words.
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« Reply #1091 on: Aug 29, 2017, 09:41PM »

It doesn't matter if I've read those (and I've read some of them, because I'm well-read, and used to be religious).

But that has nothing to do with my point, which is that the age of religion doesn't truly lend it venerability. There's lots of dogma far older than Catholicism and I don't expect you to automatically embrace it.

Freud largely invented psychoanalysis as a treatment for mental illness. Many of his central ideas are now widely discredited, and he appears to have invented some of his data and done a lot of his early work while high on cocaine.

But he was there at the beginning. Are we required to give him credit over newer, more refined explanations and treatments? I don't think so.

My post was intended as humor, not 'snark'. You can't get that mad over four words.

I don't get mad. I get even.
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« Reply #1092 on: Aug 29, 2017, 10:16PM »

I don't get mad. I get even.

What in the world would you be getting even for?
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« Reply #1093 on: Aug 29, 2017, 11:21PM »

It doesn't matter if I've read those (and I've read some of them, because I'm well-read, and used to be religious).

But that has nothing to do with my point, which is that the age of religion doesn't truly lend it venerability. There's lots of dogma far older than Catholicism and I don't expect you to automatically embrace it.

Freud largely invented psychoanalysis as a treatment for mental illness. Many of his central ideas are now widely discredited, and he appears to have invented some of his data and done a lot of his early work while high on cocaine.

But he was there at the beginning. Are we required to give him credit over newer, more refined explanations and treatments? I don't think so.

My post was intended as humor, not 'snark'. You can't get that mad over four words.

The Catholic Church goes back to St Peter. There's no older dogma about Christianity.
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« Reply #1094 on: Aug 30, 2017, 02:33AM »

I don't get mad. I get even.

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"

Particularly if one is prone to see more malice in interactions than was actually put there. In this case, one becomes the aggressor without realising it.

The Catholic Church goes back to St Peter. There's no older dogma about Christianity.

People like Isaiah might disagree. And let's not pretend that the Catholic church has never refined its opinion, or even ( Eeek!) changed its mind. The early church was a confused mass of beliefs that would later be declared heretical.
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« Reply #1095 on: Aug 30, 2017, 04:16AM »



Is English not your native language Bob--maybe somehow just not your native reading language--or are you really capable of this level of selective perception?
 
You have demonstrated tremendous difficulty with understanding what exactly a fallacy is though. Well ... under circumstances like this anyway.
 
 ... or what an argument is ... that may be the problem. You do seem to see any comment you disagree with as an argument.
 
Do you have a local JC that offers critical thinking philosophy classes?

Oh... I get it. You can't be making a fallacy because a fallacy requires an argument... you were just name calling. No argument involved. The fallacy reference was actually to remind you that there should be one.  ;-)

If I check last posts of this person in your profile, it shows me page after page of damn near same. 20 posts a page, maybe two of them go on about anything in particular, and that subject is the same every time and often not particularly topical. Then you have 18 posts of snide remarks and name calling. No argument to them, and mostly singling out people who you apparently have a grudge against.

Seriously, Byron? Not sure what you're trying for... but if it's to encourage "critical thinking" and "sound epistemology" as you like to say, then you are your own worst enemy on that. Your posts come off as a crotchety old man who resents the world because it doesn't behave like he thinks it should, and despite all of his focus on critical thinking, hasn't shown the ability to have a new thought in 20 years. And so you hold grudges and snipe all day on an internet forum. That's something to pity, not something to consider.

Maybe... instead of talking about thinking, maybe actually try it again. Maybe, if trying to give a persuasive argument, try to come off as insightful rather than disconsolate and obstinate.

You need to shake something up, because this current path is clearly taking it's toll on you.
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« Reply #1096 on: Aug 30, 2017, 04:17AM »

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"
But wasn't Jesus all about an eye for an eye ... eh?
 
I think the Sermon on the Mount says some stuff about that ...
 
People like Isaiah might disagree. And let's not pretend that the Catholic church has never refined its opinion, or even ( Eeek!) changed its mind. The early church was a confused mass of beliefs that would later be declared heretical.
Good point. If we're going by age then I guess it's best to find the earliest doctrine and stick to that, because we know the Bronze Age was our most enlightened period as a species. We should all strive to get back to the good ol' days.
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« Reply #1097 on: Aug 30, 2017, 04:19AM »

Oh... I get it. You can't be making a fallacy because a fallacy requires an argument... you were just name calling. No argument involved. The fallacy reference was actually to remind you that there should be one.  ;-)

Fair enough ... I said as much in my initial reply, although I'd characterize it as an appropriate response to nonsense that could, maybe should be construed as intellectually negligent and insulting to readers' intelligence, and coming from a well established pattern of the same.
 
Sometimes people earn insults, and often "insults" are just warranted and accurate descriptions.
 
If you don't mind, please put away that ridiculous little ruler you keep breaking out ... no one wants to see what goes with it.
 
Well, maybe someone does, but you need to take that to chat or something.
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« Reply #1098 on: Aug 30, 2017, 04:28AM »

Sometimes people earn insults, and often "insults" are just warranted and accurate descriptions.
 
If you don't mind, please put away that ridiculous little ruler you keep breaking out ... no one wants to see what goes with it.
The man who says he just wants to insult, asks for civility in return for his insults....

Yeah... no, Byron.

Want respect? Earn it. Want to get insulted? Insult others. Behave as you wish to be treated, and maybe you just will get that. Don't demand more from others than you are willing to give of yourself. Welcome to civility.

Until then, all you earn are insults... because well... that is "characterize[d] it as an appropriate response to nonsense that could, maybe should be construed as intellectually negligent and insulting to readers' intelligence, and coming from a well established pattern of the same." 9/10 posts of the same.... to quantify it.
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« Reply #1099 on: Sep 22, 2017, 09:26AM »

I'd hate to have a situation where we had Bob officially kill God, or at least the God thread.

In any case, this post is about God the Son.

I'm reading a book by the Christian theologian and professor of religious studies at York University in Toronto, Barrie Wilson.  The book is "How Jesus Became Christian".  In it he show quite convincingly that although Jesus was involved in an attempt to re-define the religion of the time, this re-definition was not Christianity.  It was a re-definition of Judaism.  Wilson argues this movement was carried on by James, the alleged brother of Jesus.  That the Jesus movement lead by James until his death was annex by Paul who created the Christ movement and 'glued' it onto James' Jesus movement.

According to Wilson within the Jesus movement Jesus was not any more divine than any devout Rabi, but he did teach a more kind and loving version of Judaism.  It was Paul that first introduced the concept of Jesus as a Christ.  Jesus himself never claimed to be a God.  In the texts he refers to himself the son of God, just like all true believers would be the sons and daughters of God.

Here are some of Wilson's assertions.

  • Paul's religion was not the religion of Jesus
  • The divine Gentile Christ was switched in place of the human Jewish Jesus
  • Paul's religion of Christ displaced the teachings and religion of Jesus
  • The NT is not a neutral collection of early church writings.  It was produced, selected and approved by one, and only one, faction of early Christianity
  • The book of Acts presents us with a fictitious history of early Christianity and represents and unreliable source of information.
  • Anti-Semitism is rooted within NT writings.

He goes on to say this was all done with intent and the group that did it took pians to cover their tracks so that they could ride the momentum of the Jesus movement.

I'll post more on these points as I read thought this, especially the alleged cover-up.
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