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drizabone
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« Reply #20 on: Jun 25, 2017, 09:05PM »

Thanks Driz,

The Christian God is fine, but we must admit that said God is the same God as that of the Jews and of Islam (at least). 

God and Allah are not the same!!!  And Jew's and Christians will argue about the trinity all day.  ISTM that atheists think that gods are all alike in the same way that westerners think that asians are all alike. I'm exaggerating for affect so I hope you get my point. 

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I'm just looking for consistency here.  That is key. 

From my perspective all you can get doing this is a stereo-type of the concept that will not describe any god.

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God is Triune I feel definitely belongs in this round. We need to be aware though that at least on branch of Christianity does not believe in the Trinity.

Well they are not christian then.

Sorry if I'm coming across as being pedantic and nit-picking but these points are significant for me.  I think its really useful to understand what we're talking about when we talk about God and I commend that idea.  But I don't think describing a stereo-typical god is any more useful than describing a stereo-typical American.  (Although as an Aussie to a Canadian I'm sure we could have some fun doing that.  Do you want to start a thread for that?)

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So it may not be something we can add in.  Your other points nevertheless are more like 'behaviors' of God and belong to that category.  They have evidence in scripture so in that sense I have no issue with them as long as they don't make God just fit the Christian definition.  I'd like to hear from all denominations here.

I know I'm sounding like a broken record (does anyone know what one of them sounds like anymore  Don't know) but if the god doesn't fit the christian definition then its not the christian god.

So I'll shut up for now.
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« Reply #21 on: Jun 26, 2017, 05:43AM »

Some Christians believe in other supernatural beings of less power than a god, like angels and demons, as do other religions as well.  So there is some basis for a continuum of power or capability.

If we had a list of characteristics, we could take a given being and compare to the list, and make a judgment about whether he or she or it met the requirements sufficiently to be granted god status. 

However it seems to me we do the reverse of this.  We declare an entity "God," and because they are god they must have the attributes that humans typically assign to gods. 
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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #22 on: Jun 26, 2017, 06:27AM »

  First of all I must mention that it was good to be born and given the chance to see what life as we know it is about or can be about.

  Now I read where the universe is 13.82 billion years old and what we call mother Earth is 4.543 billion tears old.  They say our moon is also 4.5 billion years old.

  In a good life the human can make it over a hundred years age wise.  Who are we to determine who God may be?  Yes, I believe a supreme being made everything we see and cannot see. 
  Earth, as we call it, just happens to be the right distance from the Sun to sustain life.  How'd we get so lucky?  Mars ain't happening and Venus is still too hot.
 
  Is the Sun like a match?  What I mean is a match eventually burns out.  Where do we go or where will we be if that happens?  Possibly Earth becomes uninhabitable and Venus becomes the next stop assuming the Sun keeps burning but just not as brightly or warmly as it does now, just one idea - far fetched, I know but whatever or whichever the plan God has is o.k. with me.  ;-)
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« Reply #23 on: Jun 26, 2017, 06:50AM »

Unfortunately, venus will only continue to get hotter until it is either within, or nearly within, the diameter of the growing, dying sun.

I still believe that the chances are pretty high that we are living in a mathematical simulation of someone else's design.
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« Reply #24 on: Jun 26, 2017, 07:20AM »

The truth of the matter is that man's intelligence is not capable of understanding God, much less, be able to make a list of all The things of who He is.

That's as idiotic as mankind's attempt at the Tower of Babel. LOL!

 
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« Reply #25 on: Jun 26, 2017, 07:32AM »

God and Allah are not the same!!!
It would seem this view is not held by all Christians: http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2011/april/muslimschristianssamegod.html


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And Jew's and Christians will argue about the trinity all day.  ISTM that atheists think that gods are all alike in the same way that westerners think that asians are all alike. I'm exaggerating for affect so I hope you get my point. 

From my perspective all you can get doing this is a stereo-type of the concept that will not describe any god.
There is no reason to throw out the things that make God a Christian God and they can certainly be brought into a Christian religious argument.  Again, I'm trying to get a definition that all believers of the single God would say "yeah, God's like that."  They may also say "However, from the perspective of {put your religion here} ..."  Common ground is still useful.

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Well they are not christian then.
You'd need to take that up with the Jehovah Witness.

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(Although as an Aussie to a Canadian I'm sure we could have some fun doing that.  Do you want to start a thread for that?)
Hmmm, we could look at this for some future project.

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I know I'm sounding like a broken record (does anyone know what one of them sounds like anymore  Don't know) but if the god doesn't fit the christian definition then its not the christian god.

So I'll shut up for now.
Driz, no need to shut up.  However, your response here brings two thing to mind.  Neither is very flattering, unfortunately.  The first being the child that does not want to play unless everyone plays their way.  The second is the most annoying aspect of religion I can think off, the hubris to denounce all other religions.  Christianity only accounts for ~31% - there are others out there.

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« Reply #26 on: Jun 26, 2017, 07:34AM »

The truth of the matter is that man's intelligence is not capable of understanding God, much less, be able to make a list of all The things of who He is.

That's as idiotic as mankind's attempt at the Tower of Babel. LOL!
If we can't understand who God is how can we understand God's plan for us?
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« Reply #27 on: Jun 26, 2017, 07:41AM »

It would seem this view is not held by all Christians: http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2011/april/muslimschristianssamegod.html


I would say it's even mainstream (while also noting there are some Christian positions that do not believe the OT God is the same as the NT.) 

The OT scripture that was designated for this past Sunday was Abraham kicking out his slave woman Hagar, who'd had his child, into the desert.  They run out of water and she turns away, not wanting to watch her child die.  God intervenes and produces a well.  The child survives and becomes the patriarch of the Muslim nation, just as Abraham's other child (with Sarah) Isaac goes on to become the patriarch of the Jewish nation. 

I don't know the Quran version.  I suspect it varies in some details. 
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« Reply #28 on: Jun 26, 2017, 07:44AM »

Hmm.  Wiki says:

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Abraham was childless. He was a prophet of Allah and, having left his native land, he was concerned over who would continue the prophetic office after him and whether he would indeed be a father one day. Pharaoh gave him his daughter Hagar as a slave. Hagar subsequently bore a child, and named him Ishmael, meaning "God will hear".

Hagar in the desert[edit]

Islamic scholars and sources state the following using the Arabic name Haajar for Hagar; "After Haajar gave birth to Ismaa’eel, Saarah began to feel jealous, so she asked Ibrahim to send them away from her. Allah revealed to Ibrahim that he should take Haajar and the infant Ismaa’eel and take them to Makkah. So he took them and left Haajar and her child Ismaa’eel in a bleak, isolated place in which there was no water, then he left them and went back to Canaan (Parts of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Israel and Palestinan territories). Haajar said to him, 'For whom are you leaving us in this forsaken valley?' But Ibrahim went and left her, and she said, 'Has Allah commanded you to do this?” He said, 'Yes.' She said, 'Then Allah will not cause us to be lost.'

Abraham submitted to the command of his Lord and patiently bore the separation from his wife and child. Then he turned towards where they were at the Sacred House and prayed for them in the following words (interpretation of the meaning):

'O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring to dwell in an uncultivatable valley by Your Sacred House (the Ka‘bah at Makkah) in order, O our Lord, that they may perform As-Salaah (Iqaamat-as-Salaah). So fill some hearts among men with love towards them, and (O Allah) provide them with fruits so that they may give thanks'[Qur'an, Ibraaheem 14:37][1]

Because of the scarcity of water in the desert, it was not long before both mother and son suffered immense thirst. Thus, Hagar ran between the Al-Safa and Al-Marwah hills in search of water for her son. After the seventh run between the two hills, an angel[2] appeared before her. He helped her and told her that God had heard Ishmael's crying and would provide them with water. At that point, God caused a spring to burst forth from the ground, where Ishmael's heel lay, and thereafter Mecca became known for its excellence and abundance of water. The well was subsequently named Zamzam, and become a holy source of water.
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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #29 on: Jun 26, 2017, 07:48AM »

If we can't understand who God is how can we understand God's plan for us?
Who says we can? Most people I know that take the approach of "God has a plan for me" often resorts to the wait and see approach to find out what it is.

Otherwise, How can we understanding something or someone who's very existence is said to be beyond (ie greater than) our limited understanding?
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« Reply #30 on: Jun 26, 2017, 07:56AM »

I would say it's even mainstream (while also noting there are some Christian positions that do not believe the OT God is the same as the NT.)
Yeah... no.

Mainstream christianity says that while christians came from the jews, the jews missed the first coming and a major message that came with it. As such, while they have the same origins, the jews missed God's correction to their practices and while their worship is well-intentioned it is blind and wrong.

Per islam, they began as children of abraham, but they went on a different way that very much differs in beliefs currently. Again, the first coming provided a major correction of where people had gone astray to bring them back on course. Not only did islam NOT go that way, they went a different path themselves.

So while all three believe in a single god, and share origins, what said god is and the faith around that is quite different.

Quick example, islam believes Jesus was a prophet, though given the practical realities of not teaching his teachings would likely put him lower than muhammad, whose teaching they do teach. Christianity believes Jesus IS God, and think about muhammad about as much as islam thinks of Jesus. The jews.... well, they thought neither, and killed Jesus when they got a chance. Looks like a jewish woman may have also killed muhammad (or at least poisoned him) when she found that opening as well. ;-) :-P
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« Reply #31 on: Jun 26, 2017, 08:08AM »

Mainstream christianity says that while christians came from the jews, the jews missed the first coming and a major message that came with it. As such, while they have the same origins, the jews missed God's correction to their practices and while their worship is well-intentioned it is blind and wrong.

Per islam, they began as children of abraham, but they went on a different way that very much differs in beliefs currently. Again, the first coming provided a major correction of where people had gone astray to bring them back on course. Not only did islam NOT go that way, they went a different path themselves.

Bob, are you implying that God made a mistake?
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« Reply #32 on: Jun 26, 2017, 09:13AM »

God and Allah are not the same!!!  And Jew's and Christians will argue about the trinity all day.  ISTM that atheists think that gods are all alike in the same way that westerners think that asians are all alike. I'm exaggerating for affect so I hope you get my point. 

From my perspective all you can get doing this is a stereo-type of the concept that will not describe any god.

Well they are not christian then.

Sorry if I'm coming across as being pedantic and nit-picking but these points are significant for me.  I think its really useful to understand what we're talking about when we talk about God and I commend that idea.  But I don't think describing a stereo-typical god is any more useful than describing a stereo-typical American.  (Although as an Aussie to a Canadian I'm sure we could have some fun doing that.  Do you want to start a thread for that?)

I know I'm sounding like a broken record (does anyone know what one of them sounds like anymore  Don't know) but if the god doesn't fit the christian definition then its not the christian god.

So I'll shut up for now.
I believe there's only one God. And he's the same for all. Just different interpretations. Jews don't argue about the triune God because they don't think Jesus is the Messiah. So it's a non issue with them. But their god us the same as everyone's god.
God's omnipotence is beyond comprehension. We can seek to understand but we will never get even close.
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« Reply #33 on: Jun 26, 2017, 09:46AM »

I remember my sixth grade teacher turning green when I said that "God" and "Allah" were really the same person.

She looked like she seriously expected lightning to strike me and the Earth to open up and swallow my charred bones in a pit of fire and brimstone.
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« Reply #34 on: Jun 26, 2017, 10:05AM »

Earth, as we call it, just happens to be the right distance from the Sun to sustain life.  How'd we get so lucky?  Mars ain't happening and Venus is still too hot.

This is an interesting angle--speaks volumes about the way the human brain works.
 
Did we get lucky that our home before it was our home happened to be accommodating to life, or is it maybe that we only live here because the conditions that accommodate life happened to arise on this planet? In the first iteration we're special and this is our home by right of providence or by the decree of a creator. In the latter case we're just the critters that happened to eek out an existence after billions of years of evolution on this particular space rock.
 
On the surface the former may seem preferable because it makes us so special. But if we dig a little deeper I'd say the latter is far more desirable, not just because it's what fits the facts without any obvious anthropocentric presumptions (the vagaries of human brain ownership), but because it means life isn't unique (as far as we know), it's just rare due to the necessary conditions, and given the vastness of the cosmos and the many many trillions of planets out there that probability establishes, it's almost certainly "everywhere", relatively speaking (i.e. remembering that 99.999...% of the cosmos is virtual vacuum--as I understand it that's the case even given dark matter, whatever that actually is beyond a mathematically indicated necessity), and I think that's just pretty freakin' cool!
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« Reply #35 on: Jun 26, 2017, 10:08AM »

I believe there's only one God. And he's the same for all. Just different interpretations. Jews don't argue about the triune God because they don't think Jesus is the Messiah. So it's a non issue with them. But their god us the same as everyone's god.
God's omnipotence is beyond comprehension. We can seek to understand but we will never get even close.

I'm pretty sure Driz agrees. Pretty sure he's just saying their understanding of God, or their version of God (i.e. false). Etiher/or ... it's a pretty common way to put those ideas--just saying it's a different god, the other follows.
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« Reply #36 on: Jun 26, 2017, 10:36AM »

Going along with the "99.999% chance that life is everywhere", I read that if you accept that it will someday be possible to run a simulation with a resolution nearly equal to the resolution of our universe, with the goal of simulating your ancestors (ie, the PC game "The Sims", but indistinguishable from real life), then one of three situations must be true:

1. The number of civilizations that can make it to the point where they can run simulations is nearly zero. We live in the real world and it's impossible to make it far enough in evolution to run a universe simulation.

2. The number of civilizations who have reached the point where they can run universe simulations is not zero, but the number of these civilizations that choose to run universe simulations is nearly zero. This seems unlikely.

3. There is one or more civilizations that can run universe simulations. Thus, the chances that we live in one of their simulations (as opposed to the real universe that they live in) is nearly 100%. The more simulations they run, the more likely this becomes.

We will test it someday, by running our own simulation once we reach the level of technology that the beings running our simulation are at. If we attempt to use the same amount of processing power WITHIN our simulation to equal the processing power of the civilization running our universe (and in turn, the inhabitants of tge simulation we create do the same thing), our simulation will break.

So God could be thought of as someone who lives somewhere where the resolution and laws of physics far exceed the universe we live in, such that our universe could be manipulated easily by them but cannot be by us. The book flatland comes to mind, where a three-dimensional being is completely inconceivable by the 2D inhabitants of flatland. The sphere might as well be God.
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« Reply #37 on: Jun 26, 2017, 10:41AM »

Bob, are you implying that God made a mistake?
?
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« Reply #38 on: Jun 26, 2017, 10:54AM »

I remember my sixth grade teacher turning green when I said that "God" and "Allah" were really the same person.

She looked like she seriously expected lightning to strike me and the Earth to open up and swallow my charred bones in a pit of fire and brimstone.
Yup, but then again, I also remember my 12th grade english teacher talking about the different religions one day. Even went down a list of them: christian, jewish, catholic, buddism, hinduism, etc... (she was southern baptist. catholics are considered a different religion to many of them :-P )

Though does seem a bit off, if the christian faith says that the only way to God is through Jesus, and the jews mostly looked at Jesus as a no good rabble rouser but otherwise believe in God... how do you say they are the same? Driz describes it as important and also pedantic... but given it's a key point of christianity, it really doesn't seem all that pedantic either.
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« Reply #39 on: Jun 26, 2017, 11:03AM »

)

Though does seem a bit off, if the christian faith says that the only way to God is through Jesus, and the jews mostly looked at Jesus as a no good rabble rouser but otherwise believe in God... how do you say they are the same? Driz describes it as important and also pedantic... but given it's a key point of christianity, it really doesn't seem all that pedantic either.

Well, if one believes God had a son, and the other doesn't, they can still be talking about the same God.  Then you add in Islam, with the same roots, it doesn't seem unreasonable that is the same God as well.  It makes sense to me to talk about 4 Abrahamic religions:  Judaism, Islam, Christianity, LDS. 
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