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The Trombone ForumCreation and PerformancePerformance(Moderator: BGuttman) Taking over a big band - am I insane???????
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gregs70

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« Reply #40 on: Aug 09, 2017, 08:56PM »

This sounds like a better plan  Good!

A band with three gigs a year and copies in the band book is not worth $2k. The thing of value seems to be the stands. Are they old? If they are 15 years old or more and in working order they could be worth about $4-$5 each (my guess) but just google ebay and you find what they are worth. A big band has 13-16 stands.

Since you are starting fresh you'll need stands. I guess $100 is a fair price for all the old stands. To be sure you just google any equipment to find out the ebay value.

/Tom

The stands are a few years old, barely used, red and white plastic corrugated folding stands with storage bags.  https://www.musicity.com/Music-stand-Swing-It-Jazz-Ensemble-Band-Music-Stands-5-pack-with-carrying-case.html He said he has $800 in them including deluxe bags.  However, the band doesn't like them except for the saxes.   If we get stands like this, we'll stick with five.
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« Reply #41 on: Aug 10, 2017, 08:13AM »

The stands are a few years old, barely used, red and white plastic corrugated folding stands with storage bags.  https://www.musicity.com/Music-stand-Swing-It-Jazz-Ensemble-Band-Music-Stands-5-pack-with-carrying-case.html He said he has $800 in them including deluxe bags.  However, the band doesn't like them except for the saxes.   If we get stands like this, we'll stick with five.
We just use 5 too.
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« Reply #42 on: Aug 10, 2017, 03:37PM »

We just use 5 too.
As a trombonists with a slide to deal with and bifocals as well, I find stage band stands to be a pain in the neck!!  I've finally convinced our band leader (a pianist) to use these just for the first row of saxes. 
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« Reply #43 on: Aug 10, 2017, 04:45PM »

... I find stage band stands to be a pain in the neck!!  I've finally convinced our band leader to use these just for the first row of saxes. 

 Good!
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« Reply #44 on: Aug 11, 2017, 05:38AM »

As a trombonists with a slide to deal with and bifocals as well, I find stage band stands to be a pain in the neck!!  I've finally convinced our band leader (a pianist) to use these just for the first row of saxes. 

I fought with bifocals for years.  No matter what stands I had to play from, I was constantly struggling to see the music.  I finally got a special pair of glasses specifically for reading music at a 2-3 foot range, and life is easy again.

That being said, in a big band setting, I prefer fronts to regular music stands for a variety of reasons.
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Rich Woolworth
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« Reply #45 on: Aug 11, 2017, 12:47PM »

Good!
I sooooooo agree! 
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« Reply #46 on: Aug 12, 2017, 07:37AM »

As a trombonists with a slide to deal with and bifocals as well, I find stage band stands to be a pain in the neck!!  I've finally convinced our band leader (a pianist) to use these just for the first row of saxes. 

In the band I'm playing the trombones are the first row ;-)

/Tom
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BillO
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« Reply #47 on: Aug 12, 2017, 10:00AM »

In the band I'm playing the trombones are the first row ;-)

/Tom
Now, there's a concept!
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« Reply #48 on: Aug 12, 2017, 09:48PM »

He only THINKS he's in the front row because the wagon is moving backwards.
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« Reply #49 on: Aug 12, 2017, 10:26PM »

My Shriner big band played on a very wide but shallow stage.  We wound up putting the rhythm in the center, saxes stage right with the trumpets behind them, and trombones stage left with the piano behind us.  My ears never had it so good ;-)
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #50 on: Aug 21, 2017, 07:42PM »

OK, it has been pretty smooth so far.  We had a gig yesterday at a city festival and played really well.  John introduced me to the guy who booked the band and we were asked back next year.

Tonight we surprised John.  Our band sponsor, an old friend of his, paid for a cater to bring in pizza, chicken, salad, and drinks and arranged for the mayor to show up and give John a proclamation of thanks.  .   We found out John was going to move his boig heavy old tube TV to his 12x12 room in the VA home so we chipped in and got him a gift certificate for a flat screen.

John is downsizing, and asked me to put the stands, stand lights, an old keyboard amp with an XLR jack he used for announcements, etc. in my car.  I thought it was a favor to store them while the contractors were prepping his house for sale.  When I went back in he said "You're welcome".  He GAVE them to the band!

I now have a month until the next rehearsal (we are skipping our regular 1st Monday rehearsal due to Labor Day) to get organized.

Best



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« Reply #51 on: Aug 25, 2017, 04:53PM »

It just gets better.  I called him to arrange to come over and download the .pdf files off his computer as he has no idea what a thumb drive is.  He said he had an offer - after the fuss we made over him on Monday, he wants $500 for the books and music, not the $2,000 he originally wanted.  The folders are the expensive black ones with the part embossed on the front they are worth a decent amount even empty!  Considering he gave us the equipment, I thought that was a fair deal.  We can as a band decide what we want to get originals of so we are legal when we play our first gig under new management.  :D :D :D :D :D
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Doug Elliott
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« Reply #52 on: Aug 31, 2017, 11:47AM »

I'm not sure if I've EVER played a gig that didn't involve at lease SOME Xeroxes.
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« Reply #53 on: Aug 31, 2017, 02:02PM »

Copies become necessary under a few conditions:

1.  You lose a part and the music is Out of Print.
2.  You try to buy a replacement part and the publisher doesn't answer or refuses to sell just the part.
3.  The original has become very damaged and can't be used on its own (often in conjunction with condition 1).

I wouldn't consider any of these cases a copyright infringement (although technically it is).  In no case are we refusing to buy and arrangement; you already own it.  I personally would be more likely to buy additional arrangements rather than have to replace ones I already own.  And I'd bet Zac and Rich would agree.
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #54 on: Aug 31, 2017, 03:38PM »

I don't mind someone making copies of a chart after they bought it from me. Archiving is a valid reason to copy.

What I do mind is someone making copies and then "loaning" it out or giving it away. That is depriving me of income. If someone wants to play my stuff, give them my email or phone number. I'll tell them where to send the check or paypal.
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« Reply #55 on: Aug 31, 2017, 03:41PM »

I don't mind someone making copies of a chart after they bought it from me. Archiving is a valid reason to copy.

What I do mind is someone making copies and then "loaning" it out or giving it away. That is depriving me of income. If someone wants to play my stuff, give them my email or phone number. I'll tell them where to send the check or paypal.


No argument there.  I personally try to buy anything I want to play provided it's not Public Domain.

Sometimes I get a little peeved when I can only rent it and it costs as much as buying it.
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« Reply #56 on: Aug 31, 2017, 05:33PM »

I don't mind someone making copies of a chart after they bought it from me. Archiving is a valid reason to copy.

What I do mind is someone making copies and then "loaning" it out or giving it away. That is depriving me of income. If someone wants to play my stuff, give them my email or phone number. I'll tell them where to send the check or paypal.

That is why I didn't take the original deal.  Play for pay only what we have paid for or public domain stuff, not photocopies without having the originals.
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« Reply #57 on: Sep 01, 2017, 06:37AM »

Copies become necessary under a few conditions:

1.  You lose a part and the music is Out of Print.
2.  You try to buy a replacement part and the publisher doesn't answer or refuses to sell just the part.
3.  The original has become very damaged and can't be used on its own (often in conjunction with condition 1).

I wouldn't consider any of these cases a copyright infringement (although technically it is).  In no case are we refusing to buy and arrangement; you already own it.  I personally would be more likely to buy additional arrangements rather than have to replace ones I already own.  And I'd bet Zac and Rich would agree.

I spoke with one publisher about those exact conditions; his response was "I'd have no problem with that".  There are always exceptions to every rule.
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Rich Woolworth
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« Reply #58 on: Sep 01, 2017, 04:56PM »

Copies become necessary under a few conditions:

1.  You lose a part and the music is Out of Print.
2.  You try to buy a replacement part and the publisher doesn't answer or refuses to sell just the part.
3.  The original has become very damaged and can't be used on its own (often in conjunction with condition 1).

I wouldn't consider any of these cases a copyright infringement (although technically it is).  In no case are we refusing to buy and arrangement; you already own it.  I personally would be more likely to buy additional arrangements rather than have to replace ones I already own.  And I'd bet Zac and Rich would agree.

I believe that if a copyrighted work is "Out of Print" (#1), we have "carte blanche" to do anything we want, including making and selling copies. Isn't it the responsibility of the copyright holder to see that prints are available? In the current information age, out of print is going to disappear.
Interesting sidebars happen when an author wants a work pulled off the market. They must publish to protect the copyright ... but #2

#3 is illegal as the law forces us to buy a new copy.
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« Reply #59 on: Sep 01, 2017, 05:45PM »

I believe that if a copyrighted work is "Out of Print" (#1), we have "carte blanche" to do anything we want, including making and selling copies.

Uh, nope. If you legally purchased a copy and you make copies for archival purposes no one is coming after you - yes it's technically infringement, but it's not going to attract any attention. You're protecting your investment. If you start selling copies of something you did nothing to create, you're opening yourself up to legal action if any owners of the original copyright find out. I can't say this any clearer: if you do not own the copyright to a work or have no legal arrangement with the owner of copyright, you have no right to sell it.

Isn't it the responsibility of the copyright holder to see that prints are available?

No. Copyright, in spirit anyway, is "awarded" the minute one commits pen to paper on an original work. It is practically awarded when one actually registers the work. The copyright holder has every right to limit performance of a piece. There is no legal requirement to publish. Look around and see how many film scores are available - I mean the actual scores and not songbooks or middle school band arrangements. There aren't many. The studio usually owns the copyright to that stuff and they rarely release those scores to the public. Occasionally bits and pieces of things will show up in textbooks for film score study, maybe a hastily hand-copied snippet from an orchestrator gets leaked on a "members-only" forum. There is no legal obligation to publish.

There used to be a rental agency that rented out some of the Gil Evans stuff... strange because so much of the parts and scores were in that box fill of stuff from Miles' estate. I tried to rent that stuff a couple of times and the emails never lead to anything. That stuff has just started being published in the last few years (thanks to the efforts of Jeff Sultanof at ejazzlines). If there was a "duty to publish" or any legal force like that in effect, it would've been out decades ago.

I've collaborated on a couple of musical scores with a friend of mine. These were small "musicals in a box" that required small casts, yet the production costs still ran into 6 figures. If we were required to publish, any tom dick and harry could just buy the music, video a performance, and put on a show we spent months developing for a fraction of the cost. The producer would be out of his own pocket in excess of 100K if he couldn't sell the show and recoup some of the investment.

It's theft.

In the current information age, out of print is going to disappear.

It's inspiring more than a few people to be very protective of there work and not publish for fear of something being pirated and released online. I've even had to sign contracts on works for hire ensuring the employer that I would destroy all files after transfer. It's not just about protecting the dignity of the performance - it's about protecting income.

Interesting sidebars happen when an author wants a work pulled off the market. They must publish to protect the copyright ... but #2
#3 is illegal as the law forces us to buy a new copy.
If an author wants to withdraw something from the market, they need approval from the publisher who invested all that money into publishing the piece, or marketing the tour, producing the album, yada yada.... if an author has self published they can yank it any time they darn well please. There is no legal requirement that a composer make a work publicly available. If the composer is in cahoots with a publisher, they have to honor the contract they signed.

Yes, #3 is illegal - but like I said before, copying parts for archival purposes is not something that ASCAP is going after people for, unless they try distributing those copies. I personally do not find anything morally questionable about copying parts for safekeeping. The way I look at it, you're purchasing the right to play the piece provided the venue covers their ASCAP/BMI/SESAC requirements. You are not purchasing the right to sell a piece, loan it out, or distribute it in any way that denies income to the original creator.

I think there's a general attitude that we are somehow entitled to something just because we want it. We're not.
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