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Author Topic: Skipping Partials Cleanly?  (Read 929 times)
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Georgilocks
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« on: Jul 03, 2017, 09:58AM »

What are some tips on skipping partials cleanly without hitting the notes in between?
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Geezerhorn

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« Reply #1 on: Jul 03, 2017, 10:07AM »

Practice.

...Geezer
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baileyman
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« Reply #2 on: Jul 03, 2017, 10:24AM »

I think they're called Remington style exercises that skip two up, one down, two up, etc. with different paths back down.  Skipping backwards down opposite of the way up is useful. 

Doing three partial work deliberately playing the second partial, trying to control it as well as possible, contrasts with skipping. 

Pay attention to breath, tongue, aperture, as there may be action there that makes the skip happen more cleanly, similarly the three partial work including the second partial. 

When a skip happens to sound like you want it, back up and repeat and internalize the feel.   

2 cents...
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Matt K

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« Reply #3 on: Jul 03, 2017, 10:33AM »

Unfortunately, practice isn't always the answer for something like this.  I practiced the wrong way of going about it for a long time and it took quite awhile to unlearn the bad habits and learn the appropriate way of doing it for my embouchure.

Very generally, you have to minimize the motion between the two intervals. When you "chip" a note its because you didn't put the embouchure in the right spot for a note when you articulated.  This isn't true of all embouchure types from what I understand, but of mine, Doug had me do some interval exercises in the higher ranges of my register and then bring that embouchure down into the lower register.  Anytime I did that I would be able to cleanly do octaves, 10ths, and 12ths pretty cleanly. After time, I stopped needing to start high and would put my embouchure in the appropriate location from the get-go... it took a long time though!  

Typically narrower rims also facilitate flexibility. I have a heck of a time on a "regular" width pieces, never mind "cushion rims"... The rim I've been using for a few years XT104N does a very good job of balancing flexibility with endurance --- for me at least.  Not that a mouthpiece change is the only solution but the tradeoff is something to consider if you're on something with a wider profile.

EDIT: I see you're in high school.  This is something that is really frustrating to figure out without some level of instruction. I would definitely recommend studying with someone who can do what you wish to be able to do.  That isn't a guarantee that they'll be a good teacher per se, as being able to do something doesn't mean that they know how to get other people to where they are as well... but it is a good proxy for someone who has at least went through the process themselves and figured it out. 
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Georgilocks
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« Reply #4 on: Jul 03, 2017, 10:46AM »

Unfortunately, practice isn't always the answer for something like this.  I practiced the wrong way of going about it for a long time and it took quite awhile to unlearn the bad habits and learn the appropriate way of doing it for my embouchure.

Very generally, you have to minimize the motion between the two intervals. When you "chip" a note its because you didn't put the embouchure in the right spot for a note when you articulated.  This isn't true of all embouchure types from what I understand, but of mine, Doug had me do some interval exercises in the higher ranges of my register and then bring that embouchure down into the lower register.  Anytime I did that I would be able to cleanly do octaves, 10ths, and 12ths pretty cleanly. After time, I stopped needing to start high and would put my embouchure in the appropriate location from the get-go... it took a long time though!  

Typically narrower rims also facilitate flexibility. I have a heck of a time on a "regular" width pieces, never mind "cushion rims"... The rim I've been using for a few years XT104N does a very good job of balancing flexibility with endurance --- for me at least.  Not that a mouthpiece change is the only solution but the tradeoff is something to consider if you're on something with a wider profile.

EDIT: I see you're in high school.  This is something that is really frustrating to figure out without some level of instruction. I would definitely recommend studying with someone who can do what you wish to be able to do.  That isn't a guarantee that they'll be a good teacher per se, as being able to do something doesn't mean that they know how to get other people to where they are as well... but it is a good proxy for someone who has at least went through the process themselves and figured it out. 

Thanks for that. I do study with a private teacher and he has given me some of Brad Edwards' lip slur exercises. I'm still having some difficulty with it though and it's very frustrating. I have been practicing it a lot and it still is pretty inconsistent.
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Matt K

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« Reply #5 on: Jul 03, 2017, 11:02AM »

It can be very frustrating when you "plateau" even though you put lots and lots of time into something. The "Doug" I referenced earlier is one of the mods for this forum and was the one who set me straight on most of my playing. I can definitely recommend checking in with him; he does Skype lessons if you can't make it out to where he's at in Maryland. (Although he's currently doing a road trip around the US, so he might be travelling through your area). I wish I had known about his teaching sooner, it would have saved quite a bit of work down the road. The only thing more frustrating than not being able to do something is needing to undo something you spent engraving into your habits!  >:(  ;-)
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Georgilocks
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« Reply #6 on: Jul 03, 2017, 11:29AM »

It can be very frustrating when you "plateau" even though you put lots and lots of time into something. The "Doug" I referenced earlier is one of the mods for this forum and was the one who set me straight on most of my playing. I can definitely recommend checking in with him; he does Skype lessons if you can't make it out to where he's at in Maryland. (Although he's currently doing a road trip around the US, so he might be travelling through your area). I wish I had known about his teaching sooner, it would have saved quite a bit of work down the road. The only thing more frustrating than not being able to do something is needing to undo something you spent engraving into your habits!  >:(  ;-)

Okay, thanks for the info.
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« Reply #7 on: Jul 03, 2017, 11:32AM »

Unfortunately, practice isn't always the answer for something like this.  I practiced the wrong way of going about it for a long time and it took quite awhile to unlearn the bad habits and learn the appropriate way of doing it for my embouchure.

Very generally, you have to minimize the motion between the two intervals. When you "chip" a note its because you didn't put the embouchure in the right spot for a note when you articulated.  This isn't true of all embouchure types from what I understand, but of mine, Doug had me do some interval exercises in the higher ranges of my register and then bring that embouchure down into the lower register.  Anytime I did that I would be able to cleanly do octaves, 10ths, and 12ths pretty cleanly. After time, I stopped needing to start high and would put my embouchure in the appropriate location from the get-go... it took a long time though!  

Typically narrower rims also facilitate flexibility. I have a heck of a time on a "regular" width pieces, never mind "cushion rims"... The rim I've been using for a few years XT104N does a very good job of balancing flexibility with endurance --- for me at least.  Not that a mouthpiece change is the only solution but the tradeoff is something to consider if you're on something with a wider profile.

EDIT: I see you're in high school.  This is something that is really frustrating to figure out without some level of instruction. I would definitely recommend studying with someone who can do what you wish to be able to do.  That isn't a guarantee that they'll be a good teacher per se, as being able to do something doesn't mean that they know how to get other people to where they are as well... but it is a good proxy for someone who has at least went through the process themselves and figured it out. 

The assumption is you are practicing correctly and you just need time. That's what your instructor's job is - to get you practicing correctly!  Clever  So it's not "practicing" that is at fault. It's lack of instruction or lack of adherence to said instruction.

...Geezer
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Georgilocks
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« Reply #8 on: Jul 03, 2017, 05:53PM »

Unfortunately, practice isn't always the answer for something like this.  I practiced the wrong way of going about it for a long time and it took quite awhile to unlearn the bad habits and learn the appropriate way of doing it for my embouchure.

Very generally, you have to minimize the motion between the two intervals. When you "chip" a note its because you didn't put the embouchure in the right spot for a note when you articulated.  This isn't true of all embouchure types from what I understand, but of mine, Doug had me do some interval exercises in the higher ranges of my register and then bring that embouchure down into the lower register.  Anytime I did that I would be able to cleanly do octaves, 10ths, and 12ths pretty cleanly. After time, I stopped needing to start high and would put my embouchure in the appropriate location from the get-go... it took a long time though!  

Typically narrower rims also facilitate flexibility. I have a heck of a time on a "regular" width pieces, never mind "cushion rims"... The rim I've been using for a few years XT104N does a very good job of balancing flexibility with endurance --- for me at least.  Not that a mouthpiece change is the only solution but the tradeoff is something to consider if you're on something with a wider profile.

EDIT: I see you're in high school.  This is something that is really frustrating to figure out without some level of instruction. I would definitely recommend studying with someone who can do what you wish to be able to do.  That isn't a guarantee that they'll be a good teacher per se, as being able to do something doesn't mean that they know how to get other people to where they are as well... but it is a good proxy for someone who has at least went through the process themselves and figured it out. 

You know, the exercise which Mr. Elliot made you do actually seems to help me too. Weird.
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Matt K

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« Reply #9 on: Jul 03, 2017, 06:10PM »

My embouchure type us evidently fairly common so it may well be the same as yours. Or it could coincidentally work. It isn't a science, which is why there's so much devate about what does and does not work!
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afugate

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« Reply #10 on: Jul 04, 2017, 06:05AM »

It can be very frustrating when you "plateau" even though you put lots and lots of time into something. The "Doug" I referenced earlier is one of the mods for this forum and was the one who set me straight on most of my playing. I can definitely recommend checking in with him; he does Skype lessons if you can't make it out to where he's at in Maryland. (Although he's currently doing a road trip around the US, so he might be travelling through your area). I wish I had known about his teaching sooner, it would have saved quite a bit of work down the road. The only thing more frustrating than not being able to do something is needing to undo something you spent engraving into your habits!  >:(  ;-)

I agree.  Wish I had learned the right processes much earlier.  I'd be a different and much better player today without having to unlearn so much. :(

--Andy in OKC
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Geezerhorn

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« Reply #11 on: Jul 04, 2017, 06:14AM »

Ha! You kids are lucky. Imagine how I feel at age 68, finally getting great instruction. Why, if I would have had this instruction years ago, I could have been unemployed as a decent trombone player for 30 years! lol

OP: follow the advice of your instructor!

...Geezer
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« Reply #12 on: Jul 04, 2017, 12:10PM »

Snip...
Why, if I would have had this instruction years ago, I could have been unemployed as a decent trombone player for 30 years! lol
...Snip

...Geezer

hehehehehe

--Andy in OKC
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« Reply #13 on: Jul 04, 2017, 07:19PM »

What are some tips on skipping partials cleanly without hitting the notes in between?

I suggest you not worry about it, and instead work on playing clean lip slurs that include those partials. I (use to) hear an awful lot of trombonist who work on this, and end up being able to do it by cheating the articulation by backing off on the air during the slur, which makes it a pretty weak slur. Deliberately go through all the partials in your interval, and make sure the air remains engaged with no backing off.

With a good portamento-like slur, you'll have the control to be able to alter it either using the typical "air cheat" or with a soft legato tongue, which I prefer.

I'm sure that many people will disagree with me on this, but there really are a *lot* of people - even pros - who cheat the air to create clean-ish lip slurs across multiple partials - and don't even realize they're doing it.
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« Reply #14 on: Jul 04, 2017, 08:11PM »

I suggest you not worry about it, and instead work on playing clean lip slurs that include those partials. I (use to) hear an awful lot of trombonist who work on this, and end up being able to do it by cheating the articulation by backing off on the air during the slur, which makes it a pretty weak slur. Deliberately go through all the partials in your interval, and make sure the air remains engaged with no backing off.

With a good portamento-like slur, you'll have the control to be able to alter it either using the typical "air cheat" or with a soft legato tongue, which I prefer.

I'm sure that many people will disagree with me on this, but there really are a *lot* of people - even pros - who cheat the air to create clean-ish lip slurs across multiple partials - and don't even realize they're doing it.

I am certainly not experienced with the instrument, but all I've heard is to keep the air constant through legato playing, and never to "cheat" the slur. I would however, like to second the very soft legato tongue concept when jumping a wide interval.
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