Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

 
Advanced search

1080182 Posts in 71476 Topics- by 19051 Members - Latest Member: andrewinfalmouth
Jump to:  
Pages: [1] 2 3 4  All   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: How to lube my 2nd valve?  (Read 2248 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Ellrod

*
Offline Offline

Location: North
Joined: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 6204

View Profile
« on: Jul 04, 2017, 02:39PM »

Short of taking it apart that is? I mean, I can take the valve cap off (and replace it), but I'm hesitant to disassemble the rotor to clean and lube it.

It's a dependent bass.

Logged
hyperbolica
*
Offline Offline

Location: Eastern US
Joined: Oct 19, 2014
Posts: 1354

View Profile
« Reply #1 on: Jul 04, 2017, 04:55PM »

Depending on what horn you have, you may be able to remove the 2nd valve slide, half-valve the 2nd valve lever, and drip oil down the open slide. Or in worst case, remove the entire slide, hold the first valve closed and the second valve half way, turn the bell up and drip oil down the slide receiver. In both cases, work the second valve, but leave it in half-valve position now and then to allow oil to access the inside of the housing and outside of the rotor.
Logged
Burgerbob

*
Offline Offline

Location: Los Angeles
Joined: Aug 12, 2007
Posts: 5371

View Profile
« Reply #2 on: Jul 04, 2017, 05:38PM »

What horn? On most open wrap horns you can just pour some down the tuning slide legs.
Logged

Brasslab 50T3, Greg Glack 1G .312 #2
Bach 50T, ditto
Conn 60H, ditto
Bach 42B, Greg Black NY 1.25
Conn 6H, King 7MD
Yamaha YEP-842S, Schilke 53/59
Yamaha YBH-301MS, Hammond 12XL
Le.Tromboniste
*
Offline Offline

Location: Montreal, Canada
Joined: Aug 5, 2008
Posts: 233

View Profile
« Reply #3 on: Jul 04, 2017, 06:08PM »

Careful putting oil through the tuning slide - make sure your rotor oil and tuning slide don't have contraindications.....
Logged

Maximilien Brisson
JohnL
Edge Monster

*
Offline Offline

Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: Aug 1, 2004
Posts: 7172

View Profile WWW
« Reply #4 on: Jul 04, 2017, 06:12PM »

Careful putting oil through the tuning slide - make sure your rotor oil and tuning slide don't have contraindications.....

Also try to keep the tube vertical and put the oil dead center; you want to get it to drop right into the valve, not run down the side of the tube and pick up lube and other cr*p.
Logged

Question change.
Embrace progress.
Take the time to learn the difference.
Ellrod

*
Offline Offline

Location: North
Joined: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 6204

View Profile
« Reply #5 on: Jul 04, 2017, 06:40PM »

A picture = 1000 words.







 
Logged
Burgerbob

*
Offline Offline

Location: Los Angeles
Joined: Aug 12, 2007
Posts: 5371

View Profile
« Reply #6 on: Jul 04, 2017, 06:55PM »

Yup, just dump some down the tuning G slide legs of the second valve.

When it really needs it, pop the valve out and oil it the better way.
Logged

Brasslab 50T3, Greg Glack 1G .312 #2
Bach 50T, ditto
Conn 60H, ditto
Bach 42B, Greg Black NY 1.25
Conn 6H, King 7MD
Yamaha YEP-842S, Schilke 53/59
Yamaha YBH-301MS, Hammond 12XL
Le.Tromboniste
*
Offline Offline

Location: Montreal, Canada
Joined: Aug 5, 2008
Posts: 233

View Profile
« Reply #7 on: Jul 04, 2017, 07:58PM »

Some people might say "leave it to the pros", but I think learning how to safely disassemble your instrument and do maintenance yourself is pretty essential.
Logged

Maximilien Brisson
Ellrod

*
Offline Offline

Location: North
Joined: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 6204

View Profile
« Reply #8 on: Jul 04, 2017, 07:59PM »

I just don't want to learn by trial and error (mainly error).
Logged
BGuttman
Mad Chemist

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Londonderry, NH, USA
Joined: Dec 12, 2000
Posts: 50814
"Almost Professional"


View Profile
« Reply #9 on: Jul 04, 2017, 09:22PM »

I don't disassemble valves unless there is some corrosion to remove.

A rotor needs oil on the spindle and slogging it down the tubing to try to oil the spindle is not efficient.

You can take the rotor cap off.  Put a dome of oil on the bearing end.  Using a needle oiler, put oil on the crack between the actuator collar and the valve body (fill up the gap).  Pull the tuning slide to create a vacuum in the attachment.  Oil will be pulled onto the spindle.  Press the valve and push the tuning slide back in.  Repeat.
Logged

Bruce Guttman
Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orch. President 2017-2018
daveyboy37

*
Offline Offline

Location: New Jersey, USA
Joined: Nov 24, 2005
Posts: 4384

View Profile
« Reply #10 on: Jul 04, 2017, 09:24PM »

Normally, I wouldn't think that taking apart the rotor would be a normal part of routine lubrication. It's not designed to come apart as easily as an axial flow valve, and the tolerances are usually tighter. I don't think I've ever pulled apart a rotor.

Anyway, pull out the entire D crook, and oil it that way. You could take off the tuning slide from the crook, but that would make it take even longer.
Logged

David Sullivan
Bass Trombone - Livingston Symphony Orchestra
Horns: Bach 39, King 3B, Yamaha YSL-640, Bach 42T, Kanstul 1570CR, Kanstul 1588CR, Yamaha YBL-612RII
MPCS: Faxx 7C, Hammond 11ML, Laskey 59MD, Laskey 85MD.
Ellrod

*
Offline Offline

Location: North
Joined: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 6204

View Profile
« Reply #11 on: Jul 04, 2017, 10:07PM »

Cool. Thanks guys.
Logged
Alex
*
Offline Offline

Location: UK
Joined: Oct 20, 2004
Posts: 1261

View Profile
« Reply #12 on: Jul 05, 2017, 12:25AM »


You can take the rotor cap off.  Put a dome of oil on the bearing end.  Using a needle oiler, put oil on the crack between the actuator collar and the valve body (fill up the gap).  Pull the tuning slide to create a vacuum in the attachment.  Oil will be pulled onto the spindle.  Press the valve and push the tuning slide back in.  Repeat.

This ^
Much less wasteful than pooring oil down the tuning slides.
Logged
timothy42b
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colonial Heights, Virginia, US
Joined: Dec 7, 2000
Posts: 12132

View Profile
« Reply #13 on: Jul 05, 2017, 05:19AM »

Shouldn't there be an oil hole?

Like, one of the screws comes out, and the screwhole leads all the way in to where oil needs to go? 

Logged

Tim Richardson
BGuttman
Mad Chemist

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Londonderry, NH, USA
Joined: Dec 12, 2000
Posts: 50814
"Almost Professional"


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: Jul 05, 2017, 05:22AM »

Shouldn't there be an oil hole?

Like, one of the screws comes out, and the screwhole leads all the way in to where oil needs to go? 



Olds did that, but for some unexplainable reason nobody else ever followed suit.
Logged

Bruce Guttman
Solo Trombone, Hollis Town Band
Merrimack Valley Philharmonic Orch. President 2017-2018
bonearzt

*
Offline Offline

Location: Denton-Dallas/Ft.Worth TX
Joined: Oct 23, 2004
Posts: 4088
"UTEP Alumni/Legend in my own mind!"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #15 on: Jul 05, 2017, 05:32AM »

Olds did that, but for some unexplainable reason nobody else ever followed suit.

King did that too.

I second Bruce's thought of oiling the bearings,  but that won't get the right kind of oil into the valve body!

Valves need two, and possibly three,  kinds of oil.  A thinner oil,  like Al Cass or similar piston oil,  for inside the rotor body and a heavier oil,  like the Hetman 12.5 or 13, for the bearings.  And lastly,  a REALLY heavy oil for the linkage bearings,  Hetmans 15 I think.

An easier way to oil the 2nd valve in a dependent set-up is to invert the bell section,  depress the F lever & pour oil into the slide receiver.  This will also get some more onto the F valve at the same time.
This process eliminates the possibility of the oil pulling tuning slide grease and any schmutz from the tuning slide areas into the valves!


Eric


Logged

Eric, Leandra, Sara, Jared & Lily
Edwards
"The bitterness of poor quality remains long after the sweetness of low price has faded!"
"If you're doing something a certain way ONLY because it's always been done that way,  you're probably doing it wrong!"
kbiggs

*
Offline Offline

Location: Vancouver WA
Joined: Jun 9, 2006
Posts: 1358

View Profile
« Reply #16 on: Jul 05, 2017, 07:06AM »

^ this.

Another method: a horn player showed me the way they sometimes oil their valves when they have the time. Remove the crook, in this case the D crook, and drip 8-10 drops into the crook. Point the bell up, re-insert the crook, then point the bell down and press the valve repeatedly. You put oil directly on the valve, and like Eric said you don't run the risk of the valve oil carrying slide grease and other schmutz into the valve itself. And yes, most valves need at lead 2 if not 3 different types of oil.
Logged

Kenneth Biggs
Bass & tenor trombone
_______________
I have known a great many troubles, but most of them never happened.
  -- Mark Twain
harrison.t.reed
*
Online Online

Location: Colorado
Joined: Apr 5, 2007
Posts: 2548
"Spartan Brass Band!"


View Profile
« Reply #17 on: Jul 05, 2017, 07:39AM »

This ^
Much less wasteful than pooring oil down the tuning slides.

You still need to put oil through the tube or through the slide connector. The body of the rotor needs a sealant to prevent air leaks and corrosion. Here's how I oil all of my rotors:

I use Hetmans stuff (which means I need to use their tuning slide grease as well). I use Hetmans 11 (light rotor) for the rotor core, Hetmans 14 (Bearing and Linkage) for the spindle and bearing plates, and Hetmans 15 (ball joint) for, you guessed it, the ball joints and lever connection.

1. Put a drop of Hetmans 14 on the front spindle arm of the rotor, where the lever arm connects to the rotor spindle. Trombonists probably think of this as the back of the rotor.... but apparently the rotor cap is actually the back of the rotor. You can engage the rotor a few times to work it around the spindle, but then let go of the trigger and pull on the tuning slide to create a vacuum. If you put your thumb over the slide trunion hole, you can guarantee that the air sound is coming from the spindle. This suction will pull the bearing oil into the spindle and hopefully onto the front bearing plate. This is what actually lubricates the rotor.

2. Remove the rotor cap and repeat the above process on the circle in the middle of the back rotor plate. The suction pulls the bearing oil around the back spindle arm and onto the back bearing plate. This is what actually lubricates the rotor.

3. While repeatedly engaging the rotor, drip some Hetmans 11 light down the slide trunion hole and onto the core of the rotor. Moving the rotor will spread it out inside the rotor housing  This action doesn't lubricate the rotor so much as seal air leaks (from normal playing) and prevent corrosion on the rotor and it's housing. You don't need to use a lot.

4. Remove the main tuning slide and repeat the above step, but drip the oil through the hole where the tuning slide goes into the goose neck. This is so that oil can penetrate from another angle.

5. Remove the rotor's tuning slide. Repeat the above step as needed through each tube leading to the valve, being careful to keep the rotor oil from mixing with the tuning slide grease. This is why Hetmans grease is a good idea -- it plays nice with Hetmans oils. This step may be the only way to get the core oil onto a dependent valve.

6. Put the bell section on a trombone stand and put a paper towel in the slide trunion hole. Engage the valve a few times, and then just leave it alone. You can angle the bell to facilitate excess oil to drain if you like, engaging the valve a few times as you do so. If you know about how much oil to use (not much), your paper towel shouldn't collect much waste oil.

7. While you wait, put the Hetmans 15 ball joint oil onto the miniball joints, if you have them. You can also use this on the connection points in the lever arm saddle. This oil is heavy and viscous. It should eliminate clickety clacks in the joints. It also works well on the threads of the rotor cap.

8. Repeat this process every few days unless you enjoy paying for new rotors.
Logged

"My technique is as good as Initial D"
T-396A - Griego 1C
88HTCL - Griego 1C
36H - DE XT105, C+, D Alto Shank
3B/F Silversonic - Griego 1A ss
pBone (with Yellow bell for bright tone)
timothy42b
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colonial Heights, Virginia, US
Joined: Dec 7, 2000
Posts: 12132

View Profile
« Reply #18 on: Jul 05, 2017, 07:48AM »





1.  You can engage the rotor a few times to work it around the spindle, but then let go of the trigger and pull on the tuning slide to create a vacuum. This suction will pull the bearing oil into the spindle and hopefully onto the front bearing plate. This is what actually lubricates the rotor.

2. Remove the rotor cap and repeat the above process on the circle in the middle of the back rotor plate. The suction pulls the bearing oil around the back spindle arm and onto the back bearing plate.

Not doubting your method, but I've pulled that tuning slide and never seen any sign of oil being drawn into the valve.  It's a 42B from 1971. 
Logged

Tim Richardson
harrison.t.reed
*
Online Online

Location: Colorado
Joined: Apr 5, 2007
Posts: 2548
"Spartan Brass Band!"


View Profile
« Reply #19 on: Jul 05, 2017, 07:57AM »

If the rotor doesn't have a good seal, it might not work. I guess you'd have to either take apart the whole rotor each time or get the core relapped.

I can totally see this method failing on a rotor that is older or already damaged. Part of why I mentioned blocking off the trunion hole is that it makes it more likely for oil to be forced through the spindle connections. Of course, all the tuning slides would also need good grease and a good seal too.

Does the oil penetrate into the bearing plate at all on your horn?
Logged

"My technique is as good as Initial D"
T-396A - Griego 1C
88HTCL - Griego 1C
36H - DE XT105, C+, D Alto Shank
3B/F Silversonic - Griego 1A ss
pBone (with Yellow bell for bright tone)
Pages: [1] 2 3 4  All   Go Up
Print
Jump to: