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Author Topic: How to lube my 2nd valve?  (Read 2296 times)
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timothy42b
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« Reply #20 on: Jul 05, 2017, 08:43AM »

The rotor works fine, so how would I know?

The only problems I've had were if I let the linkage get out of adjustment.

That happened last night.  The screw on the spindle arm loosened during the concert and the valve stuck.  I don't really need it on first but once in a while it's convenient, so between pieces I tightened it back up.  I didn't have a good way to tighten the jam nut securely enough but that can wait. 
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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #21 on: Jul 05, 2017, 10:00AM »

There's a best method that hasn't been mentioned. Just scrap the traditional rotors and get yourself a couple Hagmann valves...xD
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Maximilien Brisson
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« Reply #22 on: Jul 05, 2017, 10:04AM »

There's a best method that hasn't been mentioned. Just scrap the traditional rotors and get yourself a couple Hagmann valves...xD

are they different for the purposes of oiling?
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« Reply #23 on: Jul 05, 2017, 02:13PM »

How much of the rotor core actually contacts the backing plate? Most seem to have the sides of the rotor be mostly open, with maybe a small shelf/bushing around the spindle bearing. Other than that, I don't see many places the oil could go, except into the empty hole.

I have tried the "suck in the oil" thing, and honestly I haven't really seen oil go in. My trombones are relatively new though, and there is not much slop at all in Yamaha and Kanstul valves, so oil isn't getting in there easily.

I've got way to many different viscosities of Hetman oil though, that's for sure. Also Ultra Pure oils as well.
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David Sullivan
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Le.Tromboniste
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« Reply #24 on: Jul 05, 2017, 02:30PM »

are they different for the purposes of oiling?

I was just being silly.

But yes they are. The valve core is hollow (Instead of being a solid chunk of brass with ports drilled into it, it's basically a second, smaller empty casing, with hard-soldered tubing inside of it). That core/inner casing has extra holes between the ports so the oil circulates from inside the core to between the core and outer casing. So you just pop open the cap and drop some oil in there and you're good to go! Disassembling for cleaning is only slightly more complicated than a standard rotor - there's an extra spring that can be a pain to reset once you're done - but the only tool needed is a hex key.

The drawback is that since it's larger and it has ports on two planes instead of one, it's got much more friction surface between the core and casing, so it needs lighter oil and much more of it.
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Maximilien Brisson
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« Reply #25 on: Jul 05, 2017, 09:25PM »

I put my bass on the stand without the slide with a rolled up paper towel in the slide receiver and the tuning slide removed.

I use a Hetman bottle with a piece of clear plastic tubing about a foot long fitted over the nozzle of the bottle.

The plastic tube is inserted until it meets the F valve.  Actuate and oil at the same time.  Repeat for the G valve.  That way you don't end up with oil all over the tubing above the valves.

I haven't tried using the tuning slide action to suck oil into the valve from the spindle lube points.  That's a good idea.

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kbiggs

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« Reply #26 on: Jul 06, 2017, 06:44AM »

How much of the rotor core actually contacts the backing plate?

None, or very little. The core should have minimal contact with the rotor case. They are manufactured to very tight tolerances. The spindle and its base, however, which are attached to the rotor core, do contact the backing or bearing plate on both sides of the rotor core.

See http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,64568.0.html for pictures.

Quote
You can engage the rotor a few times to work it around the spindle, but then let go of the trigger and pull on the tuning slide to create a vacuum. If you put your thumb over the slide trunion hole, you can guarantee that the air sound is coming from the spindle. This suction will pull the bearing oil into the spindle and hopefully onto the front bearing plate. This is what actually lubricates the rotor.

Most techs I know don't use the vaccum method of oiling and recommend agains it. By pulling the tuning crook out to "pull" oil into the rotor or the rotor core or the spindles, you run the risk of drawing in dirt or other contaminants. If you're successful at this method, however, you will be able to pull spindle oil into the rotor casing and onto the core. Just remember that spindle oil is heavier viscosity that rotor core oil, and could make the valve action sluggish.
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Kenneth Biggs
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« Reply #27 on: Jul 06, 2017, 07:14AM »

There's a best method that hasn't been mentioned. Just scrap the traditional rotors and get yourself a couple Hagmann valves...xD

They're just as bad as traditional rotors.  More so, IMHO, due to the design!!

Eric
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« Reply #28 on: Jul 06, 2017, 11:30AM »

Should the rotor need oil between itself and the rotor casing?  They shouldn't actually touch, should they?

I would think that enough moisture is generated in the trombone to keep a 'seal' between the rotor and casing.  I put a drop or two of oil in there once a year or so, but only to coat the valves in order to reduce corrosion not for sealing or lubing purposes.  I usually don't problems with my valves just lubing the spindles and the linkages, if they have them.

That's not entirely true.  I had a brand new Conn 88H (the Abilene abomination) that had a valve so loose you could could stick a .01" feeler gauge between the rotor and the case.  Nice quality control!
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« Reply #29 on: Jul 06, 2017, 03:10PM »

They're just as bad as traditional rotors.  More so, IMHO, due to the design!!

Eric


I am with you, they are very finicky.
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« Reply #30 on: Jul 06, 2017, 03:26PM »

No patience with finicky anymore.

Standard Yamaha rotors. (But, that being said, #2 is sticking a bit. Time for a trip downtown.)

I like the idea of a plastic tube inserted into tuning slide. I just happen to have a length of .500 ID PVC tubing on my shelf. I don't like the idea of the oil dripping down the insides of the tuning slides into the valve.

I'm using Yamaha and/or Edwards rotor oil.
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Lawrie

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« Reply #31 on: Jul 06, 2017, 05:49PM »

<snip>I don't like the idea of the oil dripping down the insides of the tuning slides into the valve.
This seems to be a recurring theme, and I don't really understand it...

Some oil on the inside of your attachment tubing will help prevent, or at least minimise, deposits forming.  You know, those hard deposits that can be really hard to remove?

And if you think about it, when you're playing, the tuning slides are "uphill" from where the oil would normally sit.

For that matter, what's so bad about re-greasing your tuning slides occasionally?  Sure beats the hell out of trying to remove hard deposits - ones that will usually only respond to a chem clean.

The only place you REALLY don't want oil to get to is your hand slide, especially if you're using a silicone based lube.

My $0.02
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Le.Tromboniste
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« Reply #32 on: Jul 06, 2017, 06:28PM »

This seems to be a recurring theme, and I don't really understand it...

Some oil on the inside of your attachment tubing will help prevent, or at least minimise, deposits forming.  You know, those hard deposits that can be really hard to remove?

And if you think about it, when you're playing, the tuning slides are "uphill" from where the oil would normally sit.

For that matter, what's so bad about re-greasing your tuning slides occasionally?  Sure beats the hell out of trying to remove hard deposits - ones that will usually only respond to a chem clean.

The only place you REALLY don't want oil to get to is your hand slide, especially if you're using a silicone based lube.

My $0.02


The idea is that if you drop rotor oil from the tuning slide, it can dissolve and carry with it some of the much thicker tuning slide grease into the rotor. That will have the exact opposite effect from lubricating your valve, it'll clog it up. Moreover, some valve/rotor oils may chemically react with some tuning slide greases/oils (i.e. mineral oils and synthetic oils are typically not compatible), creating very hard chunks that can do a lot of damage in your valve (i.e. heavy scratching).
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Maximilien Brisson
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« Reply #33 on: Jul 06, 2017, 07:02PM »

The idea is that if you drop rotor oil from the tuning slide, it can dissolve and carry with it some of the much thicker tuning slide grease into the rotor. That will have the exact opposite effect from lubricating your valve, it'll clog it up.
Having never experienced problems with that particular circumstance it wouldn't have occurred to me.  I've certainly had grease from my tuning slides diluted by oil but it has never found it's way into the valve.

However, I'm happy to concede that others may well have experienced this and I appreciate the heads up.

Moreover, some valve/rotor oils may chemically react with some tuning slide greases/oils (i.e. mineral oils and synthetic oils are typically not compatible), creating very hard chunks that can do a lot of damage in your valve (i.e. heavy scratching).
I think the oft made assertion that mineral and synthetic oils are incompatible is something of a crock UNLESS you are comparing mineral oils with synthetic silicones.

AFAIK most instrument oils are paraffin based (paraffin is really a wax) - it matters not if the source of the paraffin is "natural" (extracted from crude oil) or a lab I.E. synthetic - it's still paraffin and has the same chemical formula (the less carbons in the chain, the lower the viscosity).  If the formulae are the same - or at least similar (differing length chains) - there can be no incompatibility.
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« Reply #34 on: Jul 07, 2017, 05:18AM »

As some others have suggested dropping oil down through the tuning slide legs is NOT a good idea. Depending on the oil and tuning slide grease that you are using they can mix together and can make the valve extremely sluggish. Here's what a french horn player taught me for my dependent horns:
Remove the second valve tuning slide and turn it upside down(legs up). Pour some oil down into the slide. With your bell flare also turned upside down insert the tuning slide ALL OF THE WAY IN. Then turn your bell flare right side up and let in sit there for a few minutes. Eventually gravity will take over and the oil will find it's way down into the valve. Works every time and I've never had any issues.
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« Reply #35 on: Jul 07, 2017, 06:03AM »

Here's what a french horn player taught me for my dependent horns...

Great minds think alike.  ;-)

Another method: a horn player showed me the way they sometimes oil their valves when they have the time.
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Kenneth Biggs
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« Reply #36 on: Jul 07, 2017, 06:13AM »

Normally, I wouldn't think that taking apart the rotor would be a normal part of routine lubrication. It's not designed to come apart as easily as an axial flow valve, and the tolerances are usually tighter. I don't think I've ever pulled apart a rotor.

Anyway, pull out the entire D crook, and oil it that way. You could take off the tuning slide from the crook, but that would make it take even longer.
I would disassemble the rotor, clean, dry lube and reassemble.  I showed a little girl how to do it yesterday, no problem...I just asked her if she was smarter than a horn player :D

They are just as easy as a an axial and are a looser tolerance for the most part, the big difference is the press fit rear cap.
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« Reply #37 on: Jul 07, 2017, 07:50AM »

See, the press fit is what I am hesitant about. I'm too ham handed to trust myself to get it off or back on without getting it on the wrong angle and damaging it.
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David Sullivan
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« Reply #38 on: Jul 07, 2017, 08:38AM »

See, the press fit is what I am hesitant about. I'm too ham handed to trust myself to get it off or back on without getting it on the wrong angle and damaging it.

Mirafone gave me a great technique to take care of this:

Just place the press fit plate in position.  Do not try to tighten it.

Screw on the lower valve cap finger tight.

Using a small hammer (they provided a crab mallet for this in their kit) tap the rotor cap in the center. 

The cap will now turn a little further.  Check to make sure the spindle still turns.

Tighten the cap finger tight again.  Tap the cap again.  Check.

Repeat this until another tap doesn't allow the cap to turn.  You're done.

I've done this several times on my tuba and my trombone rotor.  Fortunately I haven't needed to do it a lot.
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #39 on: Jul 07, 2017, 08:48AM »

See, the press fit is what I am hesitant about. I'm too ham handed to trust myself to get it off or back on without getting it on the wrong angle and damaging it.

Bruce's method works fine for the reinstall.  I don't like to bash against threads, but did say SMALL and TAP.  For me, though, I found that using an oil bottle cover placed over the plate makes for even seating.  Here again, though, the key is SMALL mallet and TAP, not bash :)

IMHO taking the rotor OUT is the greater challenge.  As mentioned in other threads, if you force it out by tapping on the screw that holds the arm down, you can bend, or even break, that screw.  Removing the screw entirely and using a small dowel that fits inside the rotor arm to tap on instead is safer all around.  And VERY easy. Just be sure you have the valve cover off before you start tapping  Evil
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