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Author Topic: How to lube my 2nd valve?  (Read 2660 times)
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Matt K

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« Reply #40 on: Jul 07, 2017, 08:59AM »

This is one of the advantages of using Hetmann oils. They are designed to not interfere with one another.

Question for techs: Is it possible to install a mechanism... maybe even an Amado water key on the casing of the rotor so you can just press the button and pour oil down it?
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BGuttman
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« Reply #41 on: Jul 07, 2017, 09:01AM »

Bruce's method works fine for the reinstall.  I don't like to bash against threads, but did say SMALL and TAP.  For me, though, I found that using an oil bottle cover placed over the plate makes for even seating.  Here again, though, the key is SMALL mallet and TAP, not bash :)

...
A crab mallet is made of light wood (it's sold in cooking supply stores) and it's hard to get a really strong BASH with it.  Someone made off with my Mirafone care kit and I bought another crab mallet to replace it.  Definitely don't want a 5 pound maul! :-0 Evil
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #42 on: Jul 07, 2017, 09:17AM »

This is one of the advantages of using Hetmann oils. They are designed to not interfere with one another.

Question for techs: Is it possible to install a mechanism... maybe even an Amado water key on the casing of the rotor so you can just press the button and pour oil down it?

Do any of the linkage screws go all the way through the plate?  If so, you could remove that screw and use a needle oiler.
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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #43 on: Jul 07, 2017, 09:52AM »

Man, you guys are really over thinking this.
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« Reply #44 on: Jul 07, 2017, 10:27AM »

...  I showed a little girl how to do it yesterday, no problem...

(In my best Dennis Hopper/Christopher Walken voice): Just what are you saying here John?
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timothy42b
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« Reply #45 on: Jul 07, 2017, 12:21PM »

Mine has gone completely unoiled for many of the years I've owned it. 

How often do you think they need it?

Mine has stuck once since 1971, needed disassembly and cleaning, and had the linkage start to clank a few times, that's all.  Maybe these are low maintenance items.

Maybe that's why there are so many different ways to take care of them - because none are needed. 

I've been oiling it occasionally out of a sense of duty, I'm not sure it makes much difference. 

I've heard axial valves are more demanding, but I've never played one. 
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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #46 on: Jul 07, 2017, 12:53PM »

This is one of the advantages of using Hetmann oils. They are designed to not interfere with one another.

Question for techs: Is it possible to install a mechanism... maybe even an Amado water key on the casing of the rotor so you can just press the button and pour oil down it?

Hetmann oils + Hetmann tuning slide grease= sticky valve.
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« Reply #47 on: Jul 07, 2017, 01:53PM »

Mine has gone completely unoiled for many of the years I've owned it. 

Wow. I can't imagine it seals anymore.
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« Reply #48 on: Jul 07, 2017, 01:59PM »

Hetmann oils + Hetmann tuning slide grease= sticky valve.

false for me, though to be fair, the only time I ever had tuning grease of any type degrade from hetmans was when I stored my double case vertically in a locker. The bottom horn had oil leak into the tuning slides (it was upside down).
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« Reply #49 on: Jul 07, 2017, 05:11PM »

Wow. I can't imagine it seals anymore.

I was never told anything about trombone care as a youngster. 

Where do you think the wear occurs? 

I went back and looked at those photos in the repair section.  I'd have to take mine apart again to be sure, but it looks like the seal is on the outer surface of the cylinder, and the bearing surfaces are where the spindles fit inside the end cap plates. 

The seal would be compromised if the valve were dry, maybe, but I never noticed that happening, so maybe there's enough spit in the valve to fill that small gap, or vaseline from the tuning slides migrates.  That's what we used back then.  Any way it would close up next time you oiled it.

The bearing surfaces could wear, but if they wore enough to increase the gap, seems like the valve would bind pretty quickly.  Those surfaces should be oiled, I think, but I don't see how to get much in there.  Vacuum won't pull any. 
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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #50 on: Jul 07, 2017, 06:15PM »

My similarly aged 42B has a completely worn valve, due to lack of attention. It leaks from at least two places. With enough oil it does work.
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« Reply #51 on: Jul 07, 2017, 06:37PM »

I was never told anything about trombone care as a youngster. 

Where do you think the wear occurs? 

I went back and looked at those photos in the repair section.  I'd have to take mine apart again to be sure, but it looks like the seal is on the outer surface of the cylinder, and the bearing surfaces are where the spindles fit inside the end cap plates. 

The seal would be compromised if the valve were dry, maybe, but I never noticed that happening, so maybe there's enough spit in the valve to fill that small gap, or vaseline from the tuning slides migrates.  That's what we used back then.  Any way it would close up next time you oiled it.

The bearing surfaces could wear, but if they wore enough to increase the gap, seems like the valve would bind pretty quickly.  Those surfaces should be oiled, I think, but I don't see how to get much in there.  Vacuum won't pull any. 

Let's look at this BEFORE Bonefire tomorrow.  You might be surprised :)
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Dave Adams
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« Reply #52 on: Jul 07, 2017, 07:14PM »

false for me, though to be fair, the only time I ever had tuning grease of any type degrade from hetmans was when I stored my double case vertically in a locker. The bottom horn had oil leak into the tuning slides (it was upside down).
Knew I should've worded this differently. There's always someone. I meant the mixing the two in a valve causes the valve to stick. It often happens if you pour oil down through the tuning slide receiver.
« Last Edit: Jul 08, 2017, 05:39AM by wgwbassbone » Logged

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« Reply #53 on: Jul 07, 2017, 08:04PM »

Let's look at this BEFORE Bonefire tomorrow.  You might be surprised :)

I'll come early.

(for those of you who don't know, Dave is the local master of valve engineering) 

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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #54 on: Jul 08, 2017, 07:23AM »

(In my best Dennis Hopper/Christopher Walken voice): Just what are you saying here John?

That taking a valve apart isn't anything to be afraid of.  I spent the week following ITF at the Porkorny seminar.  One theme that reoccured was that many players had the chops and skills to play something difficult but overthought/analyzed until they couldn't.  I see the same thing here, a simple 200 year old mechanical device that is serviceable with a flathead screwdriver and a small mallet....but we'd rather trust it to professionals or find silly end arounds.
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« Reply #55 on: Jul 08, 2017, 08:15AM »

^this.

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Kenneth Biggs
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« Reply #56 on: Jul 08, 2017, 09:57AM »

Taking apart my  Elkhart Conns is one thing, and I've been able to do that since high school. Taking apart (and more importantly reassembling) a tight tolerance Kanstul CR is a different thing. Get someone experienced to show you how to do it the first time.
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« Reply #57 on: Jul 08, 2017, 01:37PM »

Where do you think the wear occurs? 
The spindle bearings can wear if not lubed.  When they do the rotor can come into contact with the casing.  The condition is so gradual that it might not be noticed until the damage is quite severe.  The spindle bearings and linkages should be oiled a few times a year.  As far as I know the rotor itself does not really need oiling for lubrication or sealing unless it is already damaged or badly made.  If you oil it, do it to keep the corrosion at bay.  Of course that could be avoided if manufacturers made the rotors and casing out of corrosion resistant materials.
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« Reply #58 on: Jul 08, 2017, 05:25PM »

If you play on an Olds bass later than about 1960, you'd best know how to disassemble/reassemble a rotor and carry the necessary tools to do so, along with a replacement o-ring for the stop post. That little sucker can fail without warning, leaving you with a noisy, misaligned valve, and the valve has to be disassembled to replace it.

It's maybe a ten minute job to pull the rotor apart, clean and lube, and put it back together again. If I'm doing it in the middle of a concert, more like five minutes or less.
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« Reply #59 on: Jul 08, 2017, 05:48PM »

JohnL-

The spring on my '55 S23 completely snapped. Late 1800s German technology, as you well know. I had  unwrap the spring from a small piston valve BBb tuba, wrap the straightened copper wire counterclockwise around a pencil, add the two loops to the end of the new spring with needle nose pliers. Then calculate the wind to allow for the set-pen, which is less than the diameter of a pencil lead and about 1/16th inch long.

I made test samples for two days. Thought about it for 2 more. Then acted.

JohnL, as you know, to properly oil an S23 it takes the removal of 10 screws, and then a steady hand and a stout heart. I just bought a Hetmanns bottle with the needle already on the tip of the nozzle, and blow Wick oil all over the interior of EVERYTHING while the valves are upside down, and just drizzle the stuff everywhere.
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