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The Trombone ForumCreation and PerformancePerformance(Moderator: BGuttman) Is it me? Awkward Band Situation
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« Reply #40 on: Jul 15, 2017, 08:22AM »

LOL. See? "Cruise ships and the military". Is that really all there is to look forward to? That's really sad. No offense to either of those, I'm not saying those options are sad, I'm saying it's sad that there aren't more options.

I have auditioned for and been rejected by just about every cruise line out there. I'm having a hard time convincing myself that it's worth going through that again.

MyBad. I didn't know that you've been turned down by cruise ship gigs. I wouldn't have suggested it if I had known. I was just going with your touring experience since a lot of people would rather stay home more, and tour less.

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« Reply #41 on: Jul 15, 2017, 08:53AM »

MyBad. I didn't know that you've been turned down by cruise ship gigs. I wouldn't have suggested it if I had known. I was just going with your touring experience since a lot of people would rather stay home more, and tour less.



Understood, I wasn't trying to be insulting. In an earlier comment I said the first thing people will usually suggest is cruise ships and the military, and you went and proved my point. Sorry, I just thought that was funny, that's all, I didn't mean to put you down or anything.

I understand and apologize for coming across poorly here. You could not have known that I had been turned down by cruise ships and I didn't expect you to know that and I didn't think my answer implied any expectation. From my perspective while writing I thought I was just stating the fact and also stating why I haven't yet tried again. I could have been kinder by saying thank you for the advice or adding other words that would have come across more gently. Not sure what else to do other than apologize. In the future I will try to be more considerate when responding. 
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« Reply #42 on: Jul 15, 2017, 10:47AM »

Megan - I don't know you personally, so I am in no position to give career advice, but it seems like you are in a good place to make a lot of contacts in the music industry and find places to play. BAC seems like a well-respected instrument maker and retailer in that area. I think if you stick around there a while, you will have the opportunity to meet a lot of folks in the KC area who can point you towards some good gigs. Lots of people do a non-music job all day and gig at night. At least your day job is in the music business and you get to rub shoulders with musicians all day long. You might consider starting a brass quintet or brass band or something along those lines and looking for gigs on your own. A city the size of KC should have plenty of opportunities to play somewhere. Plus they have good barbecue.
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« Reply #43 on: Jul 15, 2017, 12:13PM »

From 1989 - 2011 I played in 3 piece horn sections with World Beat Bands, reggae, Blues . Funk and 16 years with a Classic R&B/Classic Rock Band (Excellent band).
I found that there were no charts and /or bad charts when I joined. Job security - I wrote for all of these bands. Most Non-Horn playing Rock/R&B players have no idea what to do with us.
But... They want that sound in the Band. Good for us that we are wanted. So make the best of it. When I started writing for the Bands, I had a little more control and say in the way things were put together. Instead of just adding another sax solo, I would write a "Chicago inspired" Horn section soli. This made us really stand out from other bands that had more pedestrian horn parts.
Have some fun with it, take some chances, try some different voicings. Do the other players double at all?
In the R&B Band , all 3 of us doubled on Flute, so I could write either unison or 3 part harmony flute parts, My sax player double Flugel-horn.
It was a great experience
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« Reply #44 on: Jul 22, 2017, 07:00AM »

And before anyone suggests the military, this has been pushed on me so hard and so aggressively that I will never consider it. I have never been bullied and harassed so much as by military recruiters. No offense to anyone in the military.

Ouch, hope that wasn't me. I had only suggested it when you first posted about the circus closing  because it would have been cool to work with you. I'm no recruiter.
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« Reply #45 on: Jul 22, 2017, 02:09PM »

Have some fun with it, take some chances, try some different voicings. Do the other players double at all?
In the R&B Band , all 3 of us doubled on Flute, so I could write either unison or 3 part harmony flute parts, My sax player double Flugel-horn.
It was a great experience

That's killer! I'm not sure I find myself well-founded enough on brass to be venturing out into woodwind territory, but the very thought of this is awesome.
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« Reply #46 on: Jul 23, 2017, 12:26PM »

If I can jump in and comment on some of the issues many players in this thread have brought up about form in a cover band - considering I have a (somewhat) unique perspective as a trombone player having to deal with it, a keyboard player having to follow it, and a leader having to make certain calls.

As a bone player, I can completely understand the frustration of bands not sticking to forms - you're reading a chart, ready to play the next section, when they jump back to another section entirely and you either play over it and it doesn't fit, or catch yourself in the nick of time and curse under your breath on how the band doesn't know the right form of the tune. Same happens to me when I'm playing keys - and I'm often even more frustrated, because it's not my main axe, and my latest double, so I don't have nearly the same comfort behind the keys as I do behind any of my brass doubles.

But, as a leader of top 40 bands, I've come to realize that a good vocalist or band leader will be carefully gauging the energy of the crowd and determining what needs to happen. I've gotten used to watching the crowd, and based on what I'm seeing, doubling (or even quadrupling) choruses if needed, jumping back to other sections of tunes, or skipping tunes in our sets (much to the ire of the band members). And my vocalists know that they will be followed if they are gauging the energy and make a call like that on the fly, because we are trying to keep the party pumping, and ultimately, the clients won't hear those little mistakes if the band is rocking and the crowd is dancing. Just last night, I was a sideman (trombone) with a band, and they did 15 minutes straight of Good Times, but putting other tunes over it - then switched to another hip hop tune I wasn't familiar with, and then went back to Good Times again. Floor was packed - it was a 250 guest wedding, end of the night, and probably 125-150 people on the floor - loving every minute of it. And it wasn't planned - the leader followed the singers (at one point he came over to the horns and said "I have no clue what we are doing next - I'm following them"), and the crowd was insatiable. And this is a VERY experienced leader - 100+ weddings a year for the last 10 years. It just happened organically by following the crowd's energy.

And this is where we need to step up as horn players. If you are playing weddings, you need to know the standard rep as well as any rhythm section player (meaning, if a singer jumps a verse to head to the bridge, you aren't thrown and can move with them immediately). It means not being locked in to charts for said standards. We get by playing from charts and missing entrances because of those mistakes, but the busiest players I see on the cover scene? Any standard tune they are off book, can play it in different keys if needed, and know the sections well enough to be able to jump to different sections of the tune without any fuss. And they don't complain about it - because they know that's what needs to happen to keep a band working, and that keeps them working.
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« Reply #47 on: Jul 23, 2017, 01:00PM »

Excellent comments, Brad.  As a band member who understands "light on one's feet" in a musical sense, I can relate.  Sometimes I'll noodle behind a transposed tune that the rest of the band (with the exception of the keyboard player and perhaps the drummer) lays out on because I can recognize the key.  Some players seem not to be that good (I'm not going to trumpet my greatness either; sometimes it's beyond me as well).  Finding yourself when you get lost or when the band does an unexpected jump is a great skill to develop.
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« Reply #48 on: Jul 25, 2017, 07:23PM »

Ouch, hope that wasn't me. I had only suggested it when you first posted about the circus closing  because it would have been cool to work with you. I'm no recruiter.

Nah, I don't think it was. It started in high school with military recruiters coming to our school and cornering kids in the hall. Maybe because it was rural PA they were more aggressive there? Idk. Then another time they had a booth at the amusement park where I worked, and actually stopped me during work to try and recruit me. I think those were the guys I gave my phone number to just so they'd leave me alone (no cell phones, so my parent's number). Then they started calling the house. First it was once a week, then it was every day. Pitch after pitch after pitch. My Dad finally had to yell at them to stop calling our number, and I got in trouble for creating the situation.

While working for Busch Gardens they also had "military days". In that part of VA many musicians were military, so I was already being pushed pretty hard on a daily or weekly basis by some of the people I worked with. All of whom were 55+. Not that that's a bad thing, I'm saying that they were not active military and hadn't been for some time, and I had a strong feeling that the military experience they were recruiting me into did not reflect the military as it is now. So I always politely declined, but was surprised at how hard many people took my rejection, like I'd personally insulted them or something...or like they'd been really, really hoping I'd say yes for some reason, like they'd get something out of it.

Then after my time with the circus, some friends of my grandparents tried to convince me to join, to the point of exhaustion. Messages every day on facebook. When I finally asked them to stop, I did ask if they knew anyone currently active in the military that I could talk with. They put me in touch with someone who gave me their pitch ("great money!" "great health care!" "see the world!", basically the same thing everyone said without going into detail about what it was like for them personally). When I politely thanked them and said this probably wasn't for me, I was told "well that's not surprising, not everyone has what it takes to serve their country".

So, this is something that has been sour with me for more than a decade at this point. I think that if joining the military were so great, it would not be necessary to push it so hard, to the point where recruiters are resorting to calling your house daily or using guilt tactics. Plus, 95% of the time the recruitment tactic has been money, health care, and travel. To me personally, military service is so, so much more than these things. Last I checked it was YOU serving, YOU sacrificing. YOU swearing an oath with sincerity. YOU undergoing training, no matter how infrequently, to learn to KILL other human beings. That, to me, is not a quick n' easy decision to be made based on incentives alone. Maybe I don't have what it takes to serve my country as that one recruiter suggested, but I certainly do know the value of the sacrifice, and what it means to commit to such a thing.

...and that's why I've not joined the military. I think I've derailed my own thread.
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« Reply #49 on: Jul 25, 2017, 07:34PM »

Megan - I don't know you personally, so I am in no position to give career advice, but it seems like you are in a good place to make a lot of contacts in the music industry and find places to play. BAC seems like a well-respected instrument maker and retailer in that area. I think if you stick around there a while, you will have the opportunity to meet a lot of folks in the KC area who can point you towards some good gigs. Lots of people do a non-music job all day and gig at night. At least your day job is in the music business and you get to rub shoulders with musicians all day long. You might consider starting a brass quintet or brass band or something along those lines and looking for gigs on your own. A city the size of KC should have plenty of opportunities to play somewhere. Plus they have good barbecue.

Thanks Mike. I do appreciate the advice. I hate to come here and sound so frustrated...it's really just that I don't know what direction to move in next. I feel frozen in place.

I wish I got to rub shoulders with musicians all day long. The owner of the company does get to do this with just about every group that comes into town. I get to rent instruments to kids and create PO spreadsheets. Not that I'm complaining, it needs to be done, but the schmoozing definitely all happens at the BAC factory where the custom work is done. I work at the retail store which services the K-12 set. I'm giving it a year to see what happens and if any opportunities will pop up. And I would like to try and work toward a goal of some sort...there's the trouble. It would have helped if I'd been any good at jazz. Too late now. Still trying to get lessons around here.

We are trying to start a BAC quartet/quintet, but it will have to wait until after repair season.
That is a great point about the BBQ  Good!
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« Reply #50 on: Jul 25, 2017, 07:56PM »

It's not "too late" to learn to play jazz.  All it takes is great ears, which I suspect you have, and a high tolerance for sucking at it and hating what comes out while you gradually get better at playing what you want to hear.

Not that there are any actual jazz gigs, but it's a worthwhile skill to have.
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« Reply #51 on: Jul 25, 2017, 09:46PM »

Quote
if a singer jumps a verse to head to the bridge, you aren't thrown and can move with them immediately).

This sort of thing can play havoc with the rhythm folks and if that happens, things tumble a bit when the group are new to each other.  Consider the spot Megan is in.  She's never really played in this group before and has no idea of what people are likely to do.  That's why I suggested she try to get together with the section.  It would give her some first hand experience with them and learn from their experiences.

Circus music is frenetic.  If Megan can handle that, she has skills.  She just needs to transfer them and pick up some new ones to help the effort out.  Playing with her band-mates as much as possible will help.

4 days to go before the vocal workout.  Will you attend that?  How are you feeling Megan?   Did you get to play with any of the section?  I hope you've been listening to and mimicking the bone player in Phil Collins stuff 24/7 (well, ya know hat I mean) up till now.

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« Reply #52 on: Jul 25, 2017, 09:53PM »

It's not "too late" to learn to play jazz.  All it takes is great ears, which I suspect you have, and a high tolerance for sucking at it and hating what comes out while you gradually get better at playing what you want to hear.

Not that there are any actual jazz gigs, but it's a worthwhile skill to have.

Whoo!  I can understand that.  I'm at that "geez, I suck" point where I can't get the right notes out in a solo.  I guess the more I do the better it gets, but I don't get as much opportunity in the jazz band I play in since I'm bass trombone.  Ah, well.  There are always the play-alongs like Geezer uses.

Megan, I learned to play Dixieland at age 45.  You aren't too old.  Btw, a Dixieland band gets happy audiences.  And since it's somewhere between 5 and 7 musicians the venues can often afford to hire them.
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« Reply #53 on: Jul 26, 2017, 06:52AM »

Megan - please check your email, assuming the address in your profile is correct. I have a friend from KC who has some contacts out there.
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« Reply #54 on: Jul 26, 2017, 07:41AM »

...it's really just that I don't know what direction to move in next. I feel frozen in place.


Life is a long journey and you never know what lies right around the corner in your life, so always look forward to what's next.

You may be feeling that you're in a dead end right now where you're at, and tomorrow has the potential to bring about opportunities you didn't even know existed today.

So, what to do?

Keep working on your skills and adding to them while you're in this 'frozen state', and keep what you're doing here; let people know what you're looking for. There are a lot of fellow trombone players on this forum, and eventually, one may be the exact one to help you.


 
 
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« Reply #55 on: Jul 28, 2017, 06:01AM »

This sort of thing can play havoc with the rhythm folks and if that happens, things tumble a bit when the group are new to each other.  Consider the spot Megan is in.  She's never really played in this group before and has no idea of what people are likely to do.  That's why I suggested she try to get together with the section.  It would give her some first hand experience with them and learn from their experiences.

Circus music is frenetic.  If Megan can handle that, she has skills.  She just needs to transfer them and pick up some new ones to help the effort out.  Playing with her band-mates as much as possible will help.

4 days to go before the vocal workout.  Will you attend that?  How are you feeling Megan?   Did you get to play with any of the section?  I hope you've been listening to and mimicking the bone player in Phil Collins stuff 24/7 (well, ya know hat I mean) up till now.



Fair enough, about the group being new. But, the bands REALLY doing top-40 work? They can do it without a second thought. Just like when playing with a jazz group with a vocalist, and the vocalist jumps in on the bridge of the tune even though it's supposed to be the top? Experienced sections move right with them - inexperienced don't and get flustered.

I believe she has the skills. Playing circus music is one of the toughest gigs out there. My point is that when moving into the top-40 world, so many of us horn players have deep seated expectations about what is provided, and the reality is, IF you want to work, you have to let them go. There IS work out there - and, some of it really well paying - but you have to be willing to step up, and learn the material as well as the band. And they likely won't have any charts for you. So, you learn it by ear at home, or write your own charts. A good strategy is to form a section that tries to book work together, and charge a little more than each of you would take to play the gig, and give the person writing the charts the overage for their efforts. If the section is tight and on top of it, it's usually possible to sell the slight overage.

I do know that a lot of these top-40 bands (or tribute bands, or anything involved in modern pop music) can be poorly run. And, if the money isn't there to make it worth it to deal with that, then it's worth skipping over them (or, if you are new in a scene, sticking with them for a time while you develop skills and a network). But, lack of charts, and lack of understanding why horn players might need charts, doesn't fall under that umbrella - it's a different world, a different way of learning and thinking about music, and it's important that we as horn players don't judge a band because they don't get that. Some of the tightest, busiest bands I've had the pleasure of playing with are run by rhythm section players (or singers) who have no charts and can do exactly what I've described. Embracing that mentality in the longer run can get you busier.
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« Reply #56 on: Jul 29, 2017, 07:00PM »

It's not "too late" to learn to play jazz.  All it takes is great ears, which I suspect you have, and a high tolerance for sucking at it and hating what comes out while you gradually get better at playing what you want to hear.

Not that there are any actual jazz gigs, but it's a worthwhile skill to have.

Lol!! Thanks  :D Then I will work on my tolerance haha.
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« Reply #57 on: Jul 29, 2017, 07:08PM »

Circus music is frenetic.  If Megan can handle that, she has skills.  She just needs to transfer them and pick up some new ones to help the effort out.  Playing with her band-mates as much as possible will help.

4 days to go before the vocal workout.  Will you attend that?  How are you feeling Megan?   Did you get to play with any of the section?  I hope you've been listening to and mimicking the bone player in Phil Collins stuff 24/7 (well, ya know hat I mean) up till now.

I will try to take your advice here and be more objective about it. The opportunity just needs to present itself.

As far as I know, I won't be attending the vocal rehearsal (tomorrow). Have not had contact with anyone in this band since I first posted this topic.

No, I have not been listening to/mimicking the Phil Collins dude 24/7. My main income right now is music retail, and it's rental season (back to school). I haven't even been able to practice lately because my only spot to do so was at the retail store after hours, and interruptions there have been constant. People can see me through the windows, and will knock or pull on the door until I wait on them.

Starting this week I'm trying a local community college that has four practice rooms. Also starting this week the retail store goes into extended rental season hours, 10-6 Mon-Fri and Saturday 10-2, so I'm really banking on those practice rooms being open from 7pm on.
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« Reply #58 on: Jul 29, 2017, 07:12PM »

Fair enough, about the group being new. But, the bands REALLY doing top-40 work? They can do it without a second thought. Just like when playing with a jazz group with a vocalist, and the vocalist jumps in on the bridge of the tune even though it's supposed to be the top? Experienced sections move right with them - inexperienced don't and get flustered.

I believe she has the skills. Playing circus music is one of the toughest gigs out there. My point is that when moving into the top-40 world, so many of us horn players have deep seated expectations about what is provided, and the reality is, IF you want to work, you have to let them go. There IS work out there - and, some of it really well paying - but you have to be willing to step up, and learn the material as well as the band. And they likely won't have any charts for you. So, you learn it by ear at home, or write your own charts. A good strategy is to form a section that tries to book work together, and charge a little more than each of you would take to play the gig, and give the person writing the charts the overage for their efforts. If the section is tight and on top of it, it's usually possible to sell the slight overage.

I do know that a lot of these top-40 bands (or tribute bands, or anything involved in modern pop music) can be poorly run. And, if the money isn't there to make it worth it to deal with that, then it's worth skipping over them (or, if you are new in a scene, sticking with them for a time while you develop skills and a network). But, lack of charts, and lack of understanding why horn players might need charts, doesn't fall under that umbrella - it's a different world, a different way of learning and thinking about music, and it's important that we as horn players don't judge a band because they don't get that. Some of the tightest, busiest bands I've had the pleasure of playing with are run by rhythm section players (or singers) who have no charts and can do exactly what I've described. Embracing that mentality in the longer run can get you busier.

Thank you. I appreciate your insight a lot. After Sunday, I'll poke the group and see if there are any resources for us, as far as writing charts. If we could even just pick five and get started, that would be great.
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« Reply #59 on: Jul 29, 2017, 07:17PM »

Life is a long journey and you never know what lies right around the corner in your life, so always look forward to what's next.

You may be feeling that you're in a dead end right now where you're at, and tomorrow has the potential to bring about opportunities you didn't even know existed today.

So, what to do?

Keep working on your skills and adding to them while you're in this 'frozen state', and keep what you're doing here; let people know what you're looking for. There are a lot of fellow trombone players on this forum, and eventually, one may be the exact one to help you.

Thank you. I will try.
Totally exactly how I feel right now, especially as I've had to stop practicing for a bit and look for a new space. I was hoping not to let my circus inertia fall off but it was pretty much bound to happen. The other thing is I'm trying to get back into the large bore AND keep up the small bore at the same time, and it's been a little weird switching between them haha. I'm sure many people here can relate to that issue!

You are right, and I need to decide what I'm looking for.
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