Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

 
Advanced search

1088507 Posts in 71928 Topics- by 19308 Members - Latest Member: Paul Kokora
Jump to:  
The Trombone ForumHorns, Gear, and EquipmentInstruments(Moderators: tbone62, slide advantage) Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 ... 8 [All]   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?  (Read 8209 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
schlitzbeer
*
Offline Offline

Location: Bremerton, WA
Joined: Oct 2, 2012
Posts: 215

View Profile
« on: Jul 23, 2017, 06:13AM »

I’ve switched, for now, to a single valve bass bone. It works for me because I’ve already had a CT release on my left hand. For those of us that prefer it, could you expand upon your preference for it?
Logged
hyperbolica
*
Offline Offline

Location: Eastern US
Joined: Oct 19, 2014
Posts: 1497

View Profile
« Reply #1 on: Jul 23, 2017, 07:47AM »

As long as you don't have low Cs and Bs, a single trigger is great. I play my 70h when I play 3rd part in orchestra. In big band most of the charts don't have low notes even in the 4th part, so the 70h or Holton 159 sound great, plus they are so much lighter and less expensive.
Logged
Driving Park

*
Offline Offline

Location: Bloomington, IN
Joined: May 26, 2009
Posts: 718

View Profile WWW
« Reply #2 on: Jul 23, 2017, 07:58AM »

I played my single 72H in big bands for about year, including on programs with lots of low Cs and Bs. It was hard work, but the classic sound was worth it. I played it in orchestras as well and it worked great for lighter rep. Now I also have a double valve 72H section that I use most of the time, but even though the valves are the only difference it sounds very different (I suspect mostly because of the added weight), so I bring both bell sections to big band shows and switch depending on the chart. They complement each other nicely.
Logged

Always WTB: Boosey & Co. ballad horn in C | Distin altophone | King 1147/48 altonium | Boosey/Courtois antoniophones | DEG alto cornet in F
Dukesboneman

*
Offline Offline

Location: Sarasota, Fl
Joined: Nov 24, 2003
Posts: 1450

View Profile
« Reply #3 on: Jul 23, 2017, 10:06AM »

I`m primarily a tenor player, but I double on Bass once and a while. 2 triggers is to much up keep for me. I learned on a 72H and a single works for me
Logged

“Where words leave off, music begins.”
― Heinrich Heine
Matt K

*
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 6, 2010
Posts: 7195

View Profile
« Reply #4 on: Jul 23, 2017, 10:19AM »

Your 72H with two rotors is independent?  That may have equally or perhaps slightly more to do with it than the weight itself; the benefit of single or dependent setups is that extra inch or so of that tapered tubing... in my experience at least.  A/B comparing single and dependent setups I've encountered very little difference, especially with some of the modern rotors that are out there.  Before I owned my own bass, I used my studios' Yamaha 622  (Yeo model) with the removable dependent D.  I would record myself doing passages with the F alone and then with the D. Shuffle them and see if I could hear the differnece. Generally I could not, and when I could it was because a low passage was made much easier by the second rotor. Which doesn't mean that nobody would be able to tell the difference or that it would make a difference; obviously the horn exists with the removable valve for a reason after all.

So when you compare single to dependent setups, it boils down to whether or not the sound differential and extra ease in carrying the instrument is worth the tradeoff of decreased technical facility in the lower registers. Obviously if you don't play that low on a particular gig, then the answer is probably yes.  

Logged

What's in a name? that which we call a tenor-bass posaune
By any other name would smell as sweet;
Catastrophone

*
Offline Offline

Location: London
Joined: Jan 2, 2014
Posts: 280

View Profile
« Reply #5 on: Jul 23, 2017, 11:16AM »

I like playing my 72H but only when I'm absolutely sure I won't need two valves.

Many years ago I played for a short tour which involved Schumann 3, a Beethoven overture and a newly commissioned euphonium concerto. I turned up with the 70H I owned at the time and had a week of misery. The concerto had many exposed fast bass bone passages running up from and down to the pedals via low C and B. Lesson learned! A single is great most of the time, but when you need a double you really need it.
Logged
Ellrod

*
Offline Offline

Location: North
Joined: Oct 30, 2001
Posts: 6385

View Profile
« Reply #6 on: Jul 23, 2017, 01:16PM »

I had a lovely old Bach 50 that I loved playing. I got more compliments with that horn than any other.

Logged
savio

*
Offline Offline

Location: Norway
Joined: Aug 10, 2006
Posts: 5123

View Profile WWW
« Reply #7 on: Jul 23, 2017, 11:22PM »

 I play single trigger bass trombone because i have some very nice conn 60h and 70h trombones. I can't explain why so much. I just like the feel and sound when I play them. And they fit all environment from bands, big bands and the few orchestras I sometimes play in. The C and B? They can be played if i pull out the trigger tuning. Not easy but so fare nobody have complained. I also have a double trigger if i really need it, in fact most things goes ok with single. If I am in my right mind? Certainly can be discussed :D

Leif
Logged

Bass Trombone - Conn, Holton
Edward_Solomon
Vintage trombone aficionado

*
Offline Offline

Location: London, UK
Joined: Nov 9, 2001
Posts: 1850
"Freelance semi-pro bass/contrabass trombonist"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #8 on: Jul 24, 2017, 12:53AM »

I play valveless, single and double valve bass trombones. Straight F and G bass trombones, G/D and B flat/F bass trombones, and straight B flat tenor trombones (to play third trombone parts).
Logged
svenlarsson

*
Offline Offline

Location: Enskede, Sweden.
Joined: Sep 15, 2001
Posts: 4567

View Profile WWW
« Reply #9 on: Jul 24, 2017, 02:45AM »

Well, I think the question about my mind should be judged by my collegues.
I played many double valve horns both dependant and independant. My first singel valve was the Earl Williams 10 that I played in the early 70th. I learned to love singel basses then.
Currently I own and play Bach 46, Holton 183 Yamaha 322 and Kanstul 1662, the last mentioned is a doulbe valve depndant.
The weight is one thing, long hours is taxing on the body though the Kanstul 16162 is lighter then many double horns. The sound, well, a heavy horn makes your body tense in the long run, and that may show in your sound. About indedies, they do sound different, you may like that or not, I don´t.
About low Cs and Bs, I have no problem with "fake" tones, low C in trigger 2 low B in trigger 3.
Is it diffecult? Na. If you play those tones in just the mpc you can do it on the horn.
Logged

Kanstul 1662. Bach 45B. Kanstul 1555. Besson Euphonium. Kanstul 66-S Tuba. Sackbuts in F/E/Eb Bb/A
And several horns I should sell.
slideorama

*
Offline Offline

Location: Dallas, TX
Joined: Apr 17, 2002
Posts: 902

View Profile
« Reply #10 on: Jul 24, 2017, 04:34AM »

Doug Yeo has written and spoke at length about this.

In Defense of the Single Valve Bass Trombone, Douglas Yeo. International Trombone Association Journal, Volume XII, No. 3, July 1984. pp. 20-23.

https://www.yeodoug.com/resources/faq/faq_text/valves.html


Logged

Michael Lawson
Dallas/Ft.Worth, TX
Radar

*
Offline Offline

Location: Rochester NY
Joined: Feb 23, 2012
Posts: 722

View Profile
« Reply #11 on: Jul 24, 2017, 05:14AM »

My bass is a double valve dependent Bass Bb/F/Eb, but I must admit the times I use the Eb valve are few and far between.  I could see me getting by just fine on a Single valve bass in most cases. 
Logged
Geezerhorn

*
Offline Offline

Location: PA
Joined: Feb 9, 2012
Posts: 5571
"Lego My Trombone"


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: Jul 24, 2017, 05:29AM »

I know this has been discussed on other threads, but in light of the direction this thread seems to be going, this question:

A King 4B or a King 5B?

Premise: playing essentially non-soloing bass trombone parts in a big band and/or amateur symphonic setting.

...Geezer
Logged
Dennis Clason

*
Offline Offline

Location: Cincinnati, Ohio
Joined: Jul 29, 2012
Posts: 506

View Profile
« Reply #13 on: Jul 24, 2017, 05:48AM »


A King 4B or a King 5B?

Premise: playing essentially non-soloing bass trombone parts in a big band and/or amateur symphonic setting.

...Geezer

Either is okay, the 5B/Symphony is possibly a bit better (due to the larger bell throat). As to the non-soloing premise, I'm not sure about that. Bart Varsalona played with Kenton on a King Symphony and did his share of soloing.

When I did the Stravinsky *Octet for Winds* about 10 years ago I would have used a Symphony if I'd had one available.

 
Logged

--
If it sounds good, it is good -- Duke Ellington
Once more, once -- Count Basie
Geezerhorn

*
Offline Offline

Location: PA
Joined: Feb 9, 2012
Posts: 5571
"Lego My Trombone"


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: Jul 24, 2017, 05:57AM »

Either is okay, the 5B/Symphony is possibly a bit better (due to the larger bell throat). As to the non-soloing premise, I'm not sure about that. Bart Varsalona played with Kenton on a King Symphony and did his share of soloing.

When I did the Stravinsky *Octet for Winds* about 10 years ago I would have used a Symphony if I'd had one available.


Thank you. I'm thinking 5B as well. I mean, if I want to go single-trigger bass, then I may as well go big-bell bass. I am 99% sure I would not have any meaningful solos in an amateur symphony on either 3rd or 4th in my next-of-the-woods, especially as a noob.  And as far as big band; concert, swing and/or dance is concerned, my 88H would work very nicely, depending upon how I was seated and for any little solo I might catch.

...Geezer
Logged
Matt K

*
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 6, 2010
Posts: 7195

View Profile
« Reply #15 on: Jul 24, 2017, 06:15AM »

I'd lean towards a 6B if you have the ability. The weight isn't that much bigger and the sound is definitely more bass. Even for swing stuff... I had a 9" bell on my Shires and the Duo Gravis just works better in every circumstance for bass parts than it did.You could swap out the valve for any single valve pretty easily though if you really wanted a single valve 6B too for what its worth.
Logged

What's in a name? that which we call a tenor-bass posaune
By any other name would smell as sweet;
Geezerhorn

*
Offline Offline

Location: PA
Joined: Feb 9, 2012
Posts: 5571
"Lego My Trombone"


View Profile
« Reply #16 on: Jul 24, 2017, 06:37AM »

I'd lean towards a 6B if you have the ability. The weight isn't that much bigger and the sound is definitely more bass. Even for swing stuff... I had a 9" bell on my Shires and the Duo Gravis just works better in every circumstance for bass parts than it did.You could swap out the valve for any single valve pretty easily though if you really wanted a single valve 6B too for what its worth.

I don't doubt you at all. But I'm drawing the line at a single-trigger bass. For my use, it wouldn't be worth the extra money for more than that. I have sat beside guys playing bass on everything from a King 2B with a trigger(!) to a double-trigger bass. Even the little King met the minimum standard in the groups I hang with, although I do admit the double-trigger bass was mighty impressive. But again, in the groups with which I associate, I know I could do well enough with either my 88H or my 3B/F with a Bach 5G mpc in either. But for the heck of it and not much more than say, a $1,000 - I think it would be fun and I emphasize fun - and nothing more than that - to have a larger horn. Clearly not a necessity or I would just drive down the road to another group where it didn't matter.

Someone possibly a lot younger and with much higher expectations? That's a different story completely.

...Geezer   
Logged
Driving Park

*
Offline Offline

Location: Bloomington, IN
Joined: May 26, 2009
Posts: 718

View Profile WWW
« Reply #17 on: Jul 24, 2017, 06:46AM »

Your 72H with two rotors is independent?  That may have equally or perhaps slightly more to do with it than the weight itself; the benefit of single or dependent setups is that extra inch or so of that tapered tubing... in my experience at least.

Yeah, it's indy. Good point about the taper.
Logged

Always WTB: Boosey & Co. ballad horn in C | Distin altophone | King 1147/48 altonium | Boosey/Courtois antoniophones | DEG alto cornet in F
Matt K

*
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 6, 2010
Posts: 7195

View Profile
« Reply #18 on: Jul 24, 2017, 06:54AM »

I don't doubt you at all. But I'm drawing the line at a single-trigger bass. For my use, it wouldn't be worth the extra money for more than that. I have sat beside guys playing bass on everything from a King 2B with a trigger(!) to a double-trigger bass. Even the little King met the minimum standard in the groups I hang with, although I do admit the double-trigger bass was mighty impressive. But again, in the groups with which I associate, I know I could do well enough with either my 88H or my 3B/F with a Bach 5G mpc in either. But for the heck of it and not much more than say, a $1,000 - I think it would be fun and I emphasize fun - and nothing more than that - to have a larger horn. Clearly not a necessity or I would just drive down the road to another group where it didn't matter.

Someone possibly a lot younger and with much higher expectations? That's a different story completely.

...Geezer   

I guess what I'm saying is that you already have an 88 and the 5B isn't going to play much differently. I mean, sure, if you want to drop that kind of bread you can probably find another buyer if you don't like it! But you're probably better off finding a single rotor. The reason I suggested the 6B is the tenor sized rotor, but there are obviously other horns that fit the bill, mentioned in this thread even: 70H, 50B, etc.
Logged

What's in a name? that which we call a tenor-bass posaune
By any other name would smell as sweet;
JohnL
Edge Monster

*
Online Online

Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: Aug 1, 2004
Posts: 7227

View Profile WWW
« Reply #19 on: Jul 24, 2017, 07:59AM »

I know this has been discussed on other threads, but in light of the direction this thread seems to be going, this question:

A King 4B or a King 5B?

Premise: playing essentially non-soloing bass trombone parts in a big band and/or amateur symphonic setting.

If you're thinking of a large-bore King for playing bass trombone parts, it's the 1480, hands down. The 4B and the later 5B (the one with the 4B-style wrap) just don't do as well in the low register.
Logged

Question change.
Embrace progress.
Take the time to learn the difference.
hyperbolica
*
Offline Offline

Location: Eastern US
Joined: Oct 19, 2014
Posts: 1497

View Profile
« Reply #20 on: Jul 24, 2017, 08:06AM »

I've played a 70h in this context, but my favorite horn for playing single trigger bass stuff has got to be the Holton tr159. King 5b is nice too, but to me, the 159 sounds and feels better as both a bass and a tenor.
Logged
Geezerhorn

*
Offline Offline

Location: PA
Joined: Feb 9, 2012
Posts: 5571
"Lego My Trombone"


View Profile
« Reply #21 on: Jul 24, 2017, 08:17AM »

I guess what I'm saying is that you already have an 88 and the 5B isn't going to play much differently. I mean, sure, if you want to drop that kind of bread you can probably find another buyer if you don't like it! But you're probably better off finding a single rotor. The reason I suggested the 6B is the tenor sized rotor, but there are obviously other horns that fit the bill, mentioned in this thread even: 70H, 50B, etc.

That's interesting because I can hear a big difference between my 88H and 3B/F; both with a Bach 5G mpc. I know the horn sizes are different but the sound difference goes beyond that. It is their timbre. Kings have a different quality of sound than Conns do - to my ear. I like them both but hate the trigger on the 88H. Kings are Kings and Conns are Conns. So I would expect to hear quite a difference between my 88H and a 5B. Maybe it wouldn't show up in a recording or maybe a band would cover the difference, but I would expect to hear it. I would expect to hear the timbre of a King, but as large or larger of a sound as my 88H. I also expect to like the trigger. So if I test play one and like it, I will probably buy it and maybe even sell the 88H.

Maybe it's just me, but I can hear one heck of a difference between different horns when I play them.

Now, what are we talking about in a 6B; a factory double dependent trigger or one that has been modified? What little I can find out about them are that they are obscure horns and a PITA if played stock from the factory.

Should I have my 88H trigger replaced with a modern valve? Seems to me, for the money, if I like the sound of a 5B, then why not just buy a 5B. A replacement valve for the 88H would probably cost me as much as I paid for the horn in the first place and kill it's resale value.

If you're thinking of a large-bore King for playing bass trombone parts, it's the 1480, hands down. The 4B and the later 5B (the one with the 4B-style wrap) just don't do as well in the low register.

Here again, a very obscure horn, from what I can find, although supposedly - if you can find one in good condition - a gem of a horn. And I am surprised at your comment that either the 4B or 5B "just don't do well in the low register". My notion of Kings is that they excel in the low registers. Both my 2B and 3B/F are wide open down there (everywhere for that matter); certainly a LOT more open than my 88H down there.

...Geezer
Logged
Matt K

*
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 6, 2010
Posts: 7195

View Profile
« Reply #22 on: Jul 24, 2017, 08:55AM »

A couple things to unpack here:


Quote
That's interesting because I can hear a big difference between my 88H and 3B/F; both with a Bach 5G mpc

That's quite expected. The 3BF is a 508 bore and the 88H is a 547 bore. The 88H has a 8.5" bell the 3B an 8" bell.  Both are older horns so who knows what may be influencing the F attachment side between corrision, burrs, etc.  Or misaligned valve ports, etc.

The difference between the 88H and the 5B is going to be much less if for no other reason than the slide bore are much closer.  I've played several 5Bs (or what we call 5Bs, there's some nuance you can find in these threads:

Thread 1
Thread 2
Thread 3

... they have generally been smaller feeling than the 88Hs I've played.  That certainly may have something to do with the 536 slides on some of them.  I've also played some 4Bs that felt the same. Although I will say there was a quite remarkable 4B that a friend of mine picked up and had Jeff Bonk totally rebuild the horn and it plays like a dream, although still plays like a tenor.

If you get one of the ones that has a 547/547 slide, then the only differences between the King you pick up and the Conn 88 will be the .5" in the bell and the construction differences chosen such as tubing, crook (tuning slide & handslide), and leadpipe.  Which isn't to say they are the same horn, they definitely are not. They do play differently. But not nearly as differently as a 508 horn will to a 547 horn.

Quote
Now, what are we talking about in a 6B; a factory double dependent trigger or one that has been modified? What little I can find out about them are that they are obscure horns and a PITA if played stock from the factory.

The reason I suggested the 6B is because they are among the easiest playing basses I've encountered. One reason for that is the 562 sized tubing and rotors I think. Despite what you might think, they dont' play stuffy - at least to me - despite being much smaller than typical bass rotors at .590.  It seems like lots of tenor players doubling on bass have the same perception.

As far as stock or not, the problems people tend to have with the grip is using the 2nd attachment.  Many have been converted to have the Eb or D valve operated with the ring finger, so you may not have to worry about it. If you did find one that is factory original, you'd find that it isn't very expensive to switch over.  There are also devotees of the configuration like myself that find it very comfortable. 

That said, if you had your mind set on a single rotor bass, you *could* find an inexpensive rotor section from a tenor that had a conversion and swap it out. I don't think its necessary though, the 6B isn't a particularly heavy horn and because the thumb goes over the bar, if you aren't a heavy user of the 2nd paddle you probably will find it quite well balanced too.

Quote
Here again, a very obscure horn, from what I can find, although supposedly - if you can find one in good condition - a gem of a horn. And I am surprised at your comment that either the 4B or 5B "just don't do well in the low register". My notion of Kings is that they excel in the low registers. Both my 2B and 3B/F are wide open down there (everywhere for that matter); certainly a LOT more open than my 88H down there.

I found the low range on my King 3BF before I sold it to be actually quite good.  Don't confuse ease of playing with sound though! Small bore horns take less air, and so can be easy to bust out low notes, but that doesn't mean they will sound 'right'! That said, have you had the 88H looked at?  It may well have some corrosion or a leak somewhere.
Logged

What's in a name? that which we call a tenor-bass posaune
By any other name would smell as sweet;
Pre59

*
Offline Offline

Location: Devon UK
Joined: May 26, 2015
Posts: 595

View Profile
« Reply #23 on: Jul 24, 2017, 09:08AM »

This might fit the bill.

https://www.wessex-tubas.com/shop/trombones/tenor-trombone/pbf555-trombone/   
Logged

In my reality..
Full Pedal Trombonist

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Jun 16, 2009
Posts: 2987

View Profile
« Reply #24 on: Jul 24, 2017, 09:17AM »

FWIW I played an old Yamaha single bass. Red or gold brass bell. Lower end model. Oh boy did I like that. Not something I had use for as I was using a Minick 180 for jazz and a 822G for symphony, but if that's all I happened to have I would have been happy. It wasn't heavy and it wasn't awkward. In fact the trumpet professor thought it was a tenor when he was checking it out. I only played it with a bass mouthpiece but I'm sure even with a 3G it could easily double and sound great. I think it could be pulled to E but I never tried.
Logged

We don't just embrace insanity here, we feel it up, french kiss it and then buy it a drink.
Geezerhorn

*
Offline Offline

Location: PA
Joined: Feb 9, 2012
Posts: 5571
"Lego My Trombone"


View Profile
« Reply #25 on: Jul 24, 2017, 09:20AM »

A couple things to unpack here:


That's quite expected. The 3BF is a 508 bore and the 88H is a 547 bore. The 88H has a 8.5" bell the 3B an 8" bell.  Both are older horns so who knows what may be influencing the F attachment side between corrision, burrs, etc.  Or misaligned valve ports, etc.

The difference between the 88H and the 5B is going to be much less if for no other reason than the slide bore are much closer.  I've played several 5Bs (or what we call 5Bs, there's some nuance you can find in these threads:

Thread 1
Thread 2
Thread 3

... they have generally been smaller feeling than the 88Hs I've played.  That certainly may have something to do with the 536 slides on some of them.  I've also played some 4Bs that felt the same. Although I will say there was a quite remarkable 4B that a friend of mine picked up and had Jeff Bonk totally rebuild the horn and it plays like a dream, although still plays like a tenor.

If you get one of the ones that has a 547/547 slide, then the only differences between the King you pick up and the Conn 88 will be the .5" in the bell and the construction differences chosen such as tubing, crook (tuning slide & handslide), and leadpipe.  Which isn't to say they are the same horn, they definitely are not. They do play differently. But not nearly as differently as a 508 horn will to a 547 horn.

The reason I suggested the 6B is because they are among the easiest playing basses I've encountered. One reason for that is the 562 sized tubing and rotors I think. Despite what you might think, they dont' play stuffy - at least to me - despite being much smaller than typical bass rotors at .590.  It seems like lots of tenor players doubling on bass have the same perception.

As far as stock or not, the problems people tend to have with the grip is using the 2nd attachment.  Many have been converted to have the Eb or D valve operated with the ring finger, so you may not have to worry about it. If you did find one that is factory original, you'd find that it isn't very expensive to switch over.  There are also devotees of the configuration like myself that find it very comfortable. 

That said, if you had your mind set on a single rotor bass, you *could* find an inexpensive rotor section from a tenor that had a conversion and swap it out. I don't think its necessary though, the 6B isn't a particularly heavy horn and because the thumb goes over the bar, if you aren't a heavy user of the 2nd paddle you probably will find it quite well balanced too.

I found the low range on my King 3BF before I sold it to be actually quite good.  Don't confuse ease of playing with sound though! Small bore horns take less air, and so can be easy to bust out low notes, but that doesn't mean they will sound 'right'! That said, have you had the 88H looked at?  It may well have some corrosion or a leak somewhere.

I thought I covered the size difference. lol It goes beyond that. My two Kings sound like great Kings ought to and my Conn sounds like a great Conn ought to. Size doesn't have anything to do with a certain part of it. A good King has a characteristic sound and a good Conn has it's own characteristic sound, at least to my ears. If a given 4B or a 5B has that good characteristic King sound, then an easier trigger would trump both good sounds.

I had my 88H completely serviced. It sounds Conn-fantastic with a Bach 5G mouthpiece. I just hate the trigger. I love the trigger on my 3B/F. If I find that I love the trigger on a 4B or a 5B and as I stated, they have a great King-fantastic sound, then it's a no-brainer for me.


Looks like a nice horn. I wonder, though if the resell value is above a buck, two ninety eight.

The 4B and the 5B are obscure enough for me.  ;-)

...Geezer
Logged
Matt K

*
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 6, 2010
Posts: 7195

View Profile
« Reply #26 on: Jul 24, 2017, 09:52AM »


Quote
I thought I covered the size difference. lol It goes beyond that. My two Kings sound like great Kings ought to and my Conn sounds like a great Conn ought to. Size doesn't have anything to do with a certain part of it. A good King has a characteristic sound and a good Conn has it's own characteristic sound, at least to my ears. If a given 4B or a 5B has that good characteristic King sound, then an easier trigger would trump both good sounds.

That's fair; but in my experience the difference between a King 4B/5B/1408 and an 88H isn't all that big either way!  Just as the difference between a Conn 6H and a 2b+ aren't absolutely that different either.  You're comparing a lot of different things including something that you are admittedly saying is basically impossible to define  ;-)

Quote
I had my 88H completely serviced. It sounds Conn-fantastic with a Bach 5G mouthpiece. I just hate the trigger. I love the trigger on my 3B/F. If I find that I love the trigger on a 4B or a 5B and as I stated, they have a great King-fantastic sound, then it's a no-brainer for me.

The 4B and the 5B are obscure enough for me.  ;-)


With the kings I've played, the horns between 525 and 562 generally play and sound much differently than I'd expect a King to sound. My experience isn't universal though, so take it with a grain of salt!
Logged

What's in a name? that which we call a tenor-bass posaune
By any other name would smell as sweet;
JohnL
Edge Monster

*
Online Online

Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: Aug 1, 2004
Posts: 7227

View Profile WWW
« Reply #27 on: Jul 24, 2017, 09:56AM »

Here again, a very obscure horn, from what I can find, although supposedly - if you can find one in good condition - a gem of a horn. And I am surprised at your comment that either the 4B or 5B "just don't do well in the low register". My notion of Kings is that they excel in the low registers. Both my 2B and 3B/F are wide open down there (everywhere for that matter); certainly a LOT more open than my 88H down there.
There, you've gone an misquoted me. I didn't say:
Quote
either the 4B or 5B just don't do well in the low register
I said:
Quote
The 4B and the later 5B (the one with the 4B-style wrap) just don't do as well in the low register.

1480's aren't that obscure, either - King made them for a lot of years. They tend to get sold as 5B's (and were, in fact, listed as the 5B for a while before the redesign). When George McCracken designed the 4BF, he decided to use .547" tubing for the f-attachment; that was carried over to the "new" 5B. The 1480 has .562" tubing in the f-attachment.
Logged

Question change.
Embrace progress.
Take the time to learn the difference.
Geezerhorn

*
Offline Offline

Location: PA
Joined: Feb 9, 2012
Posts: 5571
"Lego My Trombone"


View Profile
« Reply #28 on: Jul 24, 2017, 09:57AM »

That's fair; but in my experience the difference between a King 4B/5B/1408 and an 88H isn't all that big either way!  Just as the difference between a Conn 6H and a 2b+ aren't absolutely that different either.  You're comparing a lot of different things including something that you are admittedly saying is basically impossible to define  ;-)


With the kings I've played, the horns between 525 and 562 generally play and sound much differently than I'd expect a King to sound. My experience isn't universal though, so take it with a grain of salt!

Lol It's like a judge said about pornography once; I know it when I - in this case - hear it. lol A King is a King and a Conn is a Conn. Love 'em both, but they sound very different to my ear. I can't please others until I can please myself.  Clever

...Geezer
Logged
Geezerhorn

*
Offline Offline

Location: PA
Joined: Feb 9, 2012
Posts: 5571
"Lego My Trombone"


View Profile
« Reply #29 on: Jul 24, 2017, 10:01AM »

There, you've gone an misquoted me. I didn't say:I said:
1480's aren't that obscure, either - King made them for a lot of years. They tend to get sold as 5B's (and were, in fact, listed as the 5B for a while before the redesign). When George McCracken designed the 4BF, he decided to use .547" tubing for the f-attachment; that was carried over to the "new" 5B. The 1480 has .562" tubing in the f-attachment.

I stand corrected.

Something - to me - is obscure enough if I can not find a current sale listing on eBay. lol

...Geezer
Logged
Matt K

*
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 6, 2010
Posts: 7195

View Profile
« Reply #30 on: Jul 24, 2017, 10:12AM »

There are a couple 2105s at Dillon at the moment:

http://www.dillonmusic.com/c-1011-tenor-trombones.aspx?pagenum=6

I played both of them a few weeks ago. They both play about the same as the other one.  They aren't my cup of tea but they seemed to be in good mechanical condition. Again, stuffier than I'd prefer but some people's 'stuffy' is another persons' 'doesn't take as much air'!

That said, the two single valve basses they have for sale, the Conn 70H and 72H both play excellently to me.  Really, really great specimens that if I had the bread I could see myself using for situations although the Duo Gravis I have works really well for me too so it would be a toss up. The 2015s are a lot cheaper though.
Logged

What's in a name? that which we call a tenor-bass posaune
By any other name would smell as sweet;
Tbonedude

*
Offline Offline

Location: Fremont, Ohio
Joined: Jan 25, 2015
Posts: 191

View Profile
« Reply #31 on: Jul 24, 2017, 10:20AM »

I have a newer-style King 5B I use for pretty much everything. The 5B is a good fit for me as a large tenor, but it's lacking as a bass. I used to play it all the time as a bass, but as my needs grow, the horn struggles to fill them. I'm writing my own quartets and stuff for my youtube channel, and the bass trombone parts are starting to really push the 5B close to the edge of what it can effectively play. It's impossible for me to cleanly articulate a low C and B (I've tried every type of tonguing I can think of). I have really started to notice the resistance of the F side as well, since the F wrap isn't overbored.

I personally would prefer a double valve bass with a larger bore than the 5B. I played one of those 7B clones and it was like night and day in the low register. Easy to play, valves are surprisingly open, and the tone is glorious. I'd buy one in a heartbeat, if I could afford it. Shoot, from the sounds of it, I'd even trade my 5B for an older 5B/1480.
Logged

Posaunus
*
Offline Offline

Location: California
Joined: Feb 20, 2014
Posts: 714

View Profile
« Reply #32 on: Jul 24, 2017, 10:27AM »

I ... hate the trigger on the 88H. ...
Should I have my 88H trigger replaced with a modern valve?

My notion of Kings is that they excel in the low registers. Both my 2B and 3B/F are wide open down there (everywhere for that matter); certainly a LOT more open than my 88H down there.

...Geezer

Geezer,

If your Conn 88H is not open (stuffy?) in the low register and when using the F-attachment (especially compared to the King 2B & 3B/F), there is probably something amiss with your 88H.  I suggest having it carefully examined by a first class tech.   When properly adjusted, aligned, and opened up, the 88H is still a world-class trombone, and should easily outplay your Kings in the low register.  And I, for one, find the thumb lever on the 88H to be much more comfortable (ergonomic) than the awkward 3B/F "trigger."   
Logged
Geezerhorn

*
Offline Offline

Location: PA
Joined: Feb 9, 2012
Posts: 5571
"Lego My Trombone"


View Profile
« Reply #33 on: Jul 24, 2017, 10:44AM »

There are a couple 2105s at Dillon at the moment:

http://www.dillonmusic.com/c-1011-tenor-trombones.aspx?pagenum=6


I played both of them a few weeks ago. They both play about the same as the other one.  They aren't my cup of tea but they seemed to be in good mechanical condition. Again, stuffier than I'd prefer but some people's 'stuffy' is another persons' 'doesn't take as much air'!

That said, the two single valve basses they have for sale, the Conn 70H and 72H both play excellently to me.  Really, really great specimens that if I had the bread I could see myself using for situations although the Duo Gravis I have works really well for me too so it would be a toss up. The 2015s are a lot cheaper though.

Personally, I think they are asking too much for those horns. Someone will buy them, but that doesn't mean they will have gotten a good deal. I would be curious to see what the final bid price for them would be if they were listed on an eBay auction at a low starting point. I see similar horns from time-to-time on eBay with similar starting points. They sell eventually but that doesn't tell me what a fair market value is, it just tells me that someone impulsively hit the "buy" button.

Geezer,

If your Conn 88H is not open (stuffy?) in the low register and when using the F-attachment (especially compared to the King 2B & 3B/F), there is probably something amiss with your 88H.  I suggest having it carefully examined by a first class tech.   When properly adjusted, aligned, and opened up, the 88H is still a world-class trombone, and should easily outplay your Kings in the low register.  And I, for one, find the thumb lever on the 88H to be much more comfortable (ergonomic) than the awkward 3B/F "trigger."   

It's of average openness, having tried several in past years. I think my King 3B/F is exceptionally open down there, so perhaps by comparison the 88H seems not as open when in fact it's quite average. It was fully examined and fully serviced. It is in fit working order all around. The tech adjusted the trigger so that it does work as well for me as is possible, given it's structure. I still don't like it. I have learned I am not the only one who doesn't like the 88H trigger, although it might seem like I am today. lol 

Dif'rent strokes. I find the trigger on the 88H - and I've tried a bunch of 88H's, so it's not just my horn - to be difficult for me. Whereas, after working up a proper callus, the trigger on my 3B/F is a dream. But it took working up a proper callus to make it so. Well, us athletes must mold our bodies. Maybe if I could grow a - - - - - different - - - - - 88H-type thumb...

Just as an interesting note b/c it really doesn't mean anything - the tech had to replace the mangled upright brace for the left hand. I guess the previous owner had quite a gorilla grip!

We've probably strayed a bit off topic.

...Geezer
Logged
Matt K

*
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 6, 2010
Posts: 7195

View Profile
« Reply #34 on: Jul 24, 2017, 10:49AM »

The asking price at Dillon isnt' set in stone.  You might be surprised if you made an offer that one of them wouldn't get accepted.

Logged

What's in a name? that which we call a tenor-bass posaune
By any other name would smell as sweet;
Geezerhorn

*
Offline Offline

Location: PA
Joined: Feb 9, 2012
Posts: 5571
"Lego My Trombone"


View Profile
« Reply #35 on: Jul 24, 2017, 10:56AM »

The asking price at Dillon isnt' set in stone.  You might be surprised if you made an offer that one of them wouldn't get accepted.


I might have to make a "Dillon Run"!

On the one hand I wonder if they would take a trade. On the other hand, it would probably be best to get the lowest price one could get for a purchase and then outright sell an unwanted horn on eBay, Craig's List, TTF Classified or the like.

I guess this is sorta on topic in general b/c we have to buy a horn to get a horn, usually.

...Geezer
Logged
JohnL
Edge Monster

*
Online Online

Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: Aug 1, 2004
Posts: 7227

View Profile WWW
« Reply #36 on: Jul 24, 2017, 03:41PM »

Something - to me - is obscure enough if I can not find a current sale listing on eBay.
A 1480 on eBay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/King-F-Attachment-Rotor-Valve-Trombone-/401368236070

and one at Dillon Music:
http://www.dillonmusic.com/p-23069-king-5b-unstamped-professional-bbf.aspx

Dillon's also has an early 1485 (that's a 1480 with a silver bell), but it's pretty pricey.
Logged

Question change.
Embrace progress.
Take the time to learn the difference.
Geezerhorn

*
Offline Offline

Location: PA
Joined: Feb 9, 2012
Posts: 5571
"Lego My Trombone"


View Profile
« Reply #37 on: Jul 24, 2017, 04:26PM »

A 1480 on eBay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/King-F-Attachment-Rotor-Valve-Trombone-/401368236070

and one at Dillon Music:
http://www.dillonmusic.com/p-23069-king-5b-unstamped-professional-bbf.aspx

Dillon's also has an early 1485 (that's a 1480 with a silver bell), but it's pretty pricey.

For some odd reason, I missed that listing on eBay. Thanks! I am actually more interested in it than the one at Dillons. If the bidding doesn't get too high, it might be worth it to have it refinished.

So how should the buyer beware on that eBay horn? Is that linkage original or a modification? I see the tuning slide dents. No big deal there. I don't see any red rot, but that doesn't mean it isn't there. I don't see any significant bell dents but that doesn't mean there weren't any that were rolled out once-upon-a-time.

...Geezer
Logged
JohnL
Edge Monster

*
Online Online

Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: Aug 1, 2004
Posts: 7227

View Profile WWW
« Reply #38 on: Jul 24, 2017, 05:25PM »

For some odd reason, I missed that listing on eBay. Thanks! I am actually more interested in it than the one at Dillons. If the bidding doesn't get too high, it might be worth it to have it refinished.
That's a very late 1480; you just make out the "Eastlake, Ohio" on the bell (I leave it to you to check the serial number, should the spirit move you). Volenwein's has a decent reputation and their warranty sounds good. Low risk.
Logged

Question change.
Embrace progress.
Take the time to learn the difference.
Matt K

*
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 6, 2010
Posts: 7195

View Profile
« Reply #39 on: Jul 24, 2017, 05:36PM »

If you get it at that price, I'd say there's a very, very negligible chance you'll end up spendin gmore than $1k on it.
Logged

What's in a name? that which we call a tenor-bass posaune
By any other name would smell as sweet;
Geezerhorn

*
Offline Offline

Location: PA
Joined: Feb 9, 2012
Posts: 5571
"Lego My Trombone"


View Profile
« Reply #40 on: Jul 24, 2017, 05:42PM »

That's a very late 1480; you just make out the "Eastlake, Ohio" on the bell (I leave it to you to check the serial number, should the spirit move you). Volenwein's has a decent reputation and their warranty sounds good. Low risk.

Interesting single-valve bass trombone. Eastlake can be good.

Maybe it will turn out I won't be in my right mind, as the title of this thread asks - if I try playing a true bass part on it or one like it.

Worth watching...

...Geezer
Logged
Burgerbob

*
Offline Offline

Location: Los Angeles
Joined: Aug 12, 2007
Posts: 5452

View Profile
« Reply #41 on: Jul 24, 2017, 10:12PM »

Oops! Wrong thread.
Logged

Brasslab 50T3, Greg Glack 1G .312 #2
Bach 50B, ditto
Conn 60H, ditto
Bach 42B, Greg Black NY 3
Bach 42BG, ditto
Conn 6H, Yamaha 48
Yamaha YEP-842S, Schilke 53/59
Yamaha YBH-301MS, Hammond 12XL
watermailonman

*
Offline Offline

Location: Sweden
Joined: Aug 1, 2004
Posts: 1432
"Do your best and then do better"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #42 on: Jul 25, 2017, 03:02AM »

Well, I think the question about my mind should be judged by my collegues.
I played many double valve horns both dependant and independant. My first singel valve was the Earl Williams 10 that I played in the early 70th. I learned to love singel basses then.
Currently I own and play Bach 46, Holton 183 Yamaha 322 and Kanstul 1662, the last mentioned is a doulbe valve depndant.
The weight is one thing, long hours is taxing on the body though the Kanstul 16162 is lighter then many double horns. The sound, well, a heavy horn makes your body tense in the long run, and that may show in your sound. About indedies, they do sound different, you may like that or not, I don´t.
About low Cs and Bs, I have no problem with "fake" tones, low C in trigger 2 low B in trigger 3.
Is it diffecult? Na. If you play those tones in just the mpc you can do it on the horn.

As one who actually has heard you on the single trigger, I know they can be done. They are especially good when you play them  :). I don't know, maybe the factitious notes are going to be a lost art in the future because of the double trigger.

There are now lots of musicians who do not use them in public. Some do like to practice them because they find them helpful only in practice situations.

I'm convinced they can be taught by anyone who is committed enough. They are useful because if you can do the few C's and B's you have a lighter and more responsive instrument on the rest of the piece.

/Tom
Logged

Listen to my playing on soundcloud https://soundcloud.com/user-796193724
Visit my page at https://sites.google.com/site/brazzmusic/

Instruments: King 2b+, Kanstul 1570, Kanstul 1662. m-pieces: Bach 6 3/4, Hammond 12 ML, Hammond 20 BL
bonesmarsh
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 22, 2007
Posts: 2213

View Profile
« Reply #43 on: Jul 25, 2017, 01:15PM »

A bit of fuzziness here:

King Symphony was originally an American R&D large tenor to replicate large tenor GERMAN trombone. At present this doesn't matter any more because nobody here is going to be playing tenor trombone in the Cleveland Orchestra in 1960.

That said, the argument of whether a single is useful is moot: buy two pieces of appropriate sized model rocket tube in brass so they nest and be rebuilt to add extensions on a single valve to put the single into Eb.

Total cost to make any Bb/F horn a Bb/Eb horn: $10.

I've owned them all, and played them enough for good pay that they weren't sold until they paid themselves off and they'd paid for themselves. A Symphony plays bigger than a .547 5B, or a Symphony with a .547 4B slide.
The dual bore slide plays huge.

Here is the secret: buy either a new Rath B2 mouthpiece or a Conn 3B Connstellation bass mouthpiece and any .547 horn will blow the sh*t out of any ensemble, or Rochut until your cows come home.

Just practice.
Logged
donn
*
Offline Offline

Location: Seattle
Joined: Mar 12, 2010
Posts: 620

View Profile
« Reply #44 on: Jul 26, 2017, 07:38AM »

That said, the argument of whether a single is useful is moot: buy two pieces of appropriate sized model rocket tube in brass so they nest and be rebuilt to add extensions on a single valve to put the single into Eb.

Total cost to make any Bb/F horn a Bb/Eb horn: $10.

I am tempted.  Already somewhat used to Bb/E with stock configuration.  I guess not many players ever go outside of Bb/F?

Quote
Here is the secret: buy either a new Rath B2 mouthpiece or a Conn 3B Connstellation bass mouthpiece and any .547 horn will blow the sh*t out of any ensemble, or Rochut until your cows come home.

That 3B would be for your Conn 88, or Conn or Reynolds bass, am I right?  owing to the Brown & Sharpe shank taper.
Logged
Matt K

*
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 6, 2010
Posts: 7195

View Profile
« Reply #45 on: Jul 26, 2017, 07:42AM »

Not many bass players do at least.  I've played very few pieces where I'd rather have a solid B and lose the flexibility of 1st position C and B give. 
Logged

What's in a name? that which we call a tenor-bass posaune
By any other name would smell as sweet;
Pre59

*
Offline Offline

Location: Devon UK
Joined: May 26, 2015
Posts: 595

View Profile
« Reply #46 on: Jul 26, 2017, 07:53AM »

Would a Bb/D (no F) be a workable setup?
Logged

In my reality..
Matt K

*
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 6, 2010
Posts: 7195

View Profile
« Reply #47 on: Jul 26, 2017, 07:54AM »

Would a Bb/D (no F) be a workable setup?

Only if you were okay with not having any access to Eb.
Logged

What's in a name? that which we call a tenor-bass posaune
By any other name would smell as sweet;
jackbird
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Sep 11, 2015
Posts: 55

View Profile
« Reply #48 on: Jul 26, 2017, 08:36AM »

Would a Bb/D (no F) be a workable setup?

I tried this recently. Not a D, but Eb. If you have to have a bass, and REALLLY don't want 2 triggers, yeah, you can do this. It gets sticky when you have to go E-Eb, though. Plus, I had a giant slide out the back of the horn. Need a couple returns on that.
Logged
Pre59

*
Offline Offline

Location: Devon UK
Joined: May 26, 2015
Posts: 595

View Profile
« Reply #49 on: Jul 26, 2017, 09:26AM »

Only if you were okay with not having any access to Eb.


My bad..
Logged

In my reality..
Burgerbob

*
Offline Offline

Location: Los Angeles
Joined: Aug 12, 2007
Posts: 5452

View Profile
« Reply #50 on: Jul 26, 2017, 09:27AM »

I played a single Bach 50B for a few months in undergrad out of necessity. I also own a single 50T now as a backup horn that I love.

But, here's a writeup of my experience with a 50B-

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,79716.0.html
Logged

Brasslab 50T3, Greg Glack 1G .312 #2
Bach 50B, ditto
Conn 60H, ditto
Bach 42B, Greg Black NY 3
Bach 42BG, ditto
Conn 6H, Yamaha 48
Yamaha YEP-842S, Schilke 53/59
Yamaha YBH-301MS, Hammond 12XL
Matt K

*
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 6, 2010
Posts: 7195

View Profile
« Reply #51 on: Jul 26, 2017, 09:44AM »

My bad..


Well, not entirely! There are probably lots of scores that don't require the ability to play Eb. You'd just have to be strategic.

The "F" valve does give you access to the middle ground between pedals and that low E, but it also grants some extra facility in the bass clef register.  Dependent valves originally gave some additional fluency in the lower register while keeping the facility in the bass clef register. 

So a "D" interchangeable with an "Eb" valve and an "F" valve could work but I really don't think there are enough instances of music where a "D" or "Eb" attachment would make more sense than an "F" attachment.  Especially if you can at least get an "E" pull out of the F attachment.
Logged

What's in a name? that which we call a tenor-bass posaune
By any other name would smell as sweet;
donn
*
Offline Offline

Location: Seattle
Joined: Mar 12, 2010
Posts: 620

View Profile
« Reply #52 on: Jul 26, 2017, 11:09AM »

Well, for the sake of argument, it's somewhat related to the occasional chest-beating about straight slide trombones for tenor, right?  Don't need no stinkin' valves for "facility", just, uh, practice, whatever that is.  There's no such thing as a straight Bb bass, you need a valve for the low end, but if you need it only for the low end, then you need only one valve - in Eb.  Or maybe E (my B is not great, but might be salvageable with more work), but certainly not F.  If you're going for two valves, then never mind.
Logged
Matt K

*
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 6, 2010
Posts: 7195

View Profile
« Reply #53 on: Jul 26, 2017, 11:15AM »

Well, for the sake of argument, it's somewhat related to the occasional chest-beating about straight slide trombones for tenor, right?  Don't need no stinkin' valves for "facility", just, uh, practice, whatever that is.  There's no such thing as a straight Bb bass, you need a valve for the low end, but if you need it only for the low end, then you need only one valve - in Eb.  Or maybe E (my B is not great, but might be salvageable with more work), but certainly not F.  If you're going for two valves, then never mind.

Yeah, that's the basic idea but also sound to some extent.  As I mentioned, I've rarely played anything where the tradeoff was worth it to not have at least a dependent much less a single valve in Eb. But I also have short arms so that may have something to do with it  ;-)
Logged

What's in a name? that which we call a tenor-bass posaune
By any other name would smell as sweet;
watermailonman

*
Offline Offline

Location: Sweden
Joined: Aug 1, 2004
Posts: 1432
"Do your best and then do better"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #54 on: Jul 27, 2017, 03:50AM »

Well, for the sake of argument, it's somewhat related to the occasional chest-beating about straight slide trombones for tenor, right?  Don't need no stinkin' valves for "facility", just, uh, practice, whatever that is.  There's no such thing as a straight Bb bass, you need a valve for the low end, but if you need it only for the low end, then you need only one valve - in Eb.  Or maybe E (my B is not great, but might be salvageable with more work), but certainly not F.  If you're going for two valves, then never mind.

There are people who can play down there without the valve. I did a video to demonstrate this a couple of years ago. I have worked on those factitious notes since the early 80-ies. They were hard at first but become better as my embouchure got better over all. Now the only problem is when a low note is a very long note, because of the problem I have with stagger breathing. I'm not saying I do this perfect, but this is not because they can not be done. It's just because I still has work to do.

There are other demos out there too that I have seen. Most settle with just getting a fuzzy sound, a sound that is not usable. I know the goals can be higher, because I've heard them played with perfection. They can sound just as good as other notes on the trombone, but needs care and work. I think people rather buy a trigger trombone and then they don't practice enough at the factitious notes. Why should they? There is still reasons to work at them because they help form the correct embouchure down there.

Here is the link. I'm playing a Bach 42 without a valve

https://youtu.be/M83mrOympwI

/Tom
Logged

Listen to my playing on soundcloud https://soundcloud.com/user-796193724
Visit my page at https://sites.google.com/site/brazzmusic/

Instruments: King 2b+, Kanstul 1570, Kanstul 1662. m-pieces: Bach 6 3/4, Hammond 12 ML, Hammond 20 BL
Geezerhorn

*
Offline Offline

Location: PA
Joined: Feb 9, 2012
Posts: 5571
"Lego My Trombone"


View Profile
« Reply #55 on: Jul 27, 2017, 04:00AM »

Nicely done, Tom. That's inspiring! There were times where your falset notes sounded just about as good as any other note. I think playing a large-bore horn helps in the regard?

Some students may wonder; why practice those notes when they can just use the trigger to get them. I think the reason is anything new or different we can learn to do that makes the embouchure stronger and more flexible helps out everything else we can already do.

...Geezer
Logged
watermailonman

*
Offline Offline

Location: Sweden
Joined: Aug 1, 2004
Posts: 1432
"Do your best and then do better"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #56 on: Jul 27, 2017, 04:14AM »

Nicely done, Tom. That's inspiring! There were times where your falset notes sounded just about as good as any other note. I think playing a large-bore horn helps in the regard?

Some students may wonder; why practice those notes when they can just use the trigger to get them. I think the reason is anything new or different we can learn to do that makes the embouchure stronger and more flexible helps out everything else we can already do.

...Geezer

Yes, I've heard that before. Some think they are better on a large bore. I don't think they are. I can do them with the same result on a small bore.

I have a demo of this too from about two years ago. As before: If they are not perfect in this demo it is not because they can not be done with perfection it is because I did not put enough work into this. The notes are there and feels like real notes, but a little more difficult to control as you know.

Here is that link and the trombone is a King 3b Silver Sonic. The bore is .508

https://youtu.be/fk6kDPGuxbw

/Tom
Logged

Listen to my playing on soundcloud https://soundcloud.com/user-796193724
Visit my page at https://sites.google.com/site/brazzmusic/

Instruments: King 2b+, Kanstul 1570, Kanstul 1662. m-pieces: Bach 6 3/4, Hammond 12 ML, Hammond 20 BL
Geezerhorn

*
Offline Offline

Location: PA
Joined: Feb 9, 2012
Posts: 5571
"Lego My Trombone"


View Profile
« Reply #57 on: Jul 27, 2017, 04:29AM »

Lol. There you go! Well done!

So there's a lesson for young students out there. A valve isn't absolutely necessary. It's mainly there for convenience. Symphonic orchestral players will probably disagree b/c playing those notes on a valved instrument will make them project more at a quality standard they must adhere to on the professional symphonic level; keys word being professional.

...Geezer
Logged
blast

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: scotland
Joined: Jul 26, 2001
Posts: 6995
"Bass/Contrabass trombone, Scottish Opera."


View Profile
« Reply #58 on: Jul 27, 2017, 04:44AM »

I use a single when I don't need a double.... I have a single and double Hagmann set for the Raths. I have single and double Holtons and Conns. Don't carry plumbing that you don't need.
Great false notes on those last two links... bravo.

Chris Stearn
Logged

Still cannot think of anything better to do. Back on an old 1 1/2G again !
watermailonman

*
Offline Offline

Location: Sweden
Joined: Aug 1, 2004
Posts: 1432
"Do your best and then do better"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #59 on: Jul 27, 2017, 05:07AM »

Lol. There you go! Well done!

So there's a lesson for young students out there. A valve isn't absolutely necessary. It's mainly there for convenience. Symphonic orchestral players will probably disagree b/c playing those notes on a valved instrument will make them project more at a quality standard they must adhere to on the professional symphonic level; keys word being professional.

...Geezer

Yes there are lessons to learn. One is "don't think it is not doable", and another is "It is possible to play those notes in a professional context". I know there are people who have done this in professional contexts. It has been done in the best symphony orchestras in Sweden, factitious notes can be heard on thousands of records, the catch is it is so perfect that you will not be able to tell the difference  :)

I would not go to a bass trombone gig with a small bore straight trombone and I don't think anyone should, but the factitious notes can be played very well on a bass trombone. And too me the false tones C and B are better and more secure on a bass than on a tenor. The trigger T2 for C and the T3 for B.

Here is a link to a clip that shows when fakenotes can be used on the single valved bass. I use a Bach 50 single trigger in the video-clip.

https://youtu.be/sLGCX0AeR54

/Tom
« Last Edit: Jul 27, 2017, 12:35PM by watermailonman » Logged

Listen to my playing on soundcloud https://soundcloud.com/user-796193724
Visit my page at https://sites.google.com/site/brazzmusic/

Instruments: King 2b+, Kanstul 1570, Kanstul 1662. m-pieces: Bach 6 3/4, Hammond 12 ML, Hammond 20 BL
Geezerhorn

*
Offline Offline

Location: PA
Joined: Feb 9, 2012
Posts: 5571
"Lego My Trombone"


View Profile
« Reply #60 on: Jul 27, 2017, 05:19AM »

Yes there are lessons to learn. One is "don't think it is not doable". And as to play those notes in a professional context. I know there are people who have done this in professional contexts. It has been done in the best symphony orchestras in Sweden, factitious notes can be heard on thousands of records, the catch is it is so perfect that you will not be able to tell the difference  :)

I would not go to a bass trombone gig with a small bore straight trombone and I don't think anyone should, but the fictitious notes can be played very well on a bass trombone. And too me the false tones C and B are better and more secure on a bass than on a tenor. The trigger T2 for C and the T3 for B.

https://youtu.be/sLGCX0AeR54

/Tom


I didn't know that! However, I wouldn't be surprised if someone is inclined to argue your point.

Anyway, as to the thread title, I am about to find out. I just bought a vintage King 4B/F and I have a used Bach 3G mouthpiece on order. I am curious to find out just how convincingly I can learn to play bass on a single valve.

I am trying to build my range up on tenor at an age where a lot of pros are working hard to KEEP their upper range. It may be a losing battle on my part, so I want to develop my skills at playing lower on a larger (but not too large) horn. The first part is finding the right horn for me and the second part is developing my own arrangements that are pitched correspondingly lower.

While I love the sound I get on a Conn 88H with a Bach 5G mouthpiece, I find the typical trigger on an 88H to be VERY uncomfortable for me. I thought about having it swapped out for a Thayer valve, but I don't really like the large and - to me - clumsy feel of said valve. A lot of guys say they don't like the King paddle triggers, but I love them, hence the purchase of a King 4B/F.

I've read where a lot of guys just can not make a nice low B in T3. I personally don't see the big deal about it. It's just another note to learn.

...Geezer   
Logged
watermailonman

*
Offline Offline

Location: Sweden
Joined: Aug 1, 2004
Posts: 1432
"Do your best and then do better"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #61 on: Jul 27, 2017, 06:02AM »

I didn't know that! However, I wouldn't be surprised if someone is inclined to argue your point.

Anyway, as to the thread title, I am about to find out. I just bought a vintage King 4B/F and I have a used Bach 3G mouthpiece on order. I am curious to find out just how convincingly I can learn to play bass on a single valve.

I am trying to build my range up on tenor at an age where a lot of pros are working hard to KEEP their upper range. It may be a losing battle on my part, so I want to develop my skills at playing lower on a larger (but not too large) horn. The first part is finding the right horn for me and the second part is developing my own arrangements that are pitched correspondingly lower.

While I love the sound I get on a Conn 88H with a Bach 5G mouthpiece, I find the typical trigger on an 88H to be VERY uncomfortable for me. I thought about having it swapped out for a Thayer valve, but I don't really like the large and - to me - clumsy feel of said valve. A lot of guys say they don't like the King paddle triggers, but I love them, hence the purchase of a King 4B/F.

I've read where a lot of guys just can not make a nice low B in T3. I personally don't see the big deal about it. It's just another note to learn.

...Geezer   

I think a 4b with trigger could be used as a small bass, with no doubt. I have often used my large bore trombones as the third part and either I tune the valve to a flat F if I need a C or a Flat E if I need a B, or I use false notes. (To me) When speed is fast they are often better as false notes and when they are sustained they are better as a regular note with F-valve-pull.

Good luck with the 3G. I have a Hammond 11 ML that I use with my large bore horns if playing bass on them, and I think a 11 ML is about the size of a 3G, and I agree that the B on T3 is just another one to learn. Not much different from the C on T2. The notable difference is a little more resistance, but the resistance is not making it more difficult, it is in fact the other way around. To me the B is even better than the C because of that.

/Tom


Logged

Listen to my playing on soundcloud https://soundcloud.com/user-796193724
Visit my page at https://sites.google.com/site/brazzmusic/

Instruments: King 2b+, Kanstul 1570, Kanstul 1662. m-pieces: Bach 6 3/4, Hammond 12 ML, Hammond 20 BL
savio

*
Offline Offline

Location: Norway
Joined: Aug 10, 2006
Posts: 5123

View Profile WWW
« Reply #62 on: Jul 27, 2017, 07:05AM »

It sounds good Tom! I have tried this false notes a lot but I sound to bad. I have no trouble to get them, but my problem is the sound quality. It's not good. Strange thing is I make them best on the 70h. But still it isn't good enough. Maybe I didn't practice them enough. You seem to have practiced a lot on them Tom? But back to topic, for my little playing the single trigger 60h is working nice. And I also have the two valve Holton Bass.

Leif
Logged

Bass Trombone - Conn, Holton
Geezerhorn

*
Offline Offline

Location: PA
Joined: Feb 9, 2012
Posts: 5571
"Lego My Trombone"


View Profile
« Reply #63 on: Jul 27, 2017, 08:46AM »

I think a 4b with trigger could be used as a small bass, with no doubt. I have often used my large bore trombones as the third part and either I tune the valve to a flat F if I need a C or a Flat E if I need a B, or I use false notes. (To me) When speed is fast they are often better as false notes and when they are sustained they are better as a regular note with F-valve-pull.

Good luck with the 3G. I have a Hammond 11 ML that I use with my large bore horns if playing bass on them, and I think a 11 ML is about the size of a 3G, and I agree that the B on T3 is just another one to learn. Not much different from the C on T2. The notable difference is a little more resistance, but the resistance is not making it more difficult, it is in fact the other way around. To me the B is even better than the C because of that.

/Tom


Thanks Tom. Concert band, swing band or big band as well as sentimental ballads at home would be fair game for me with a King 4B/F & 3-4 or 5G mpc. Symphonic groups on all levels would be out. Even if, for some odd reason, I was invited, I would politely decline.

...Geezer
Logged
watermailonman

*
Offline Offline

Location: Sweden
Joined: Aug 1, 2004
Posts: 1432
"Do your best and then do better"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #64 on: Jul 27, 2017, 09:02AM »

It sounds good Tom! I have tried this false notes a lot but I sound to bad. I have no trouble to get them, but my problem is the sound quality. It's not good. Strange thing is I make them best on the 70h. But still it isn't good enough. Maybe I didn't practice them enough. You seem to have practiced a lot on them Tom? But back to topic, for my little playing the single trigger 60h is working nice. And I also have the two valve Holton Bass.

Leif

They can be more or less easy on different horns, that is also something I've noticed,  but they are there on all my horns. Some lock into the pitch more easy than others. It feels like the tolerance is just different. The same as finding the sweet spot for the best sound on any note. You know when you find it because the sound grows with no effort. The same with the factitious notes. You know when you find the sweet spot because the horn sings with no effort.

The fault I did in the beginning was I forced them. That is I used far more air and force than needed. No need for that because they are just as any note in that register.

The second fault was I used to much pressure on them. I don't know why I did this. I think I had not developed my embouchure enough so my corners were not firm enough to really play securely below the staff. I had bad attacks and bad control on the regular valve positions too because of this. Firm corners helped.

The third fault I did was I useed a too open aparture. They got better after I changed this. To me the breakthrough was after I began experimenting with the airstream, where to aim the airstream on those factitious notes. No use telling you what that means because I don't expect to be understood, but that last ingredient made my day. The sound became more resonant and once you experience it you know it is just about repetition.  

I can recommend a lesson with Sven Larsson at the forum to learn the factitious notes as well as other avant garde techniques like circular breathing, split-tones and multiphonics. He is the man!!!

I'm just a student of his :/

/Tom
Logged

Listen to my playing on soundcloud https://soundcloud.com/user-796193724
Visit my page at https://sites.google.com/site/brazzmusic/

Instruments: King 2b+, Kanstul 1570, Kanstul 1662. m-pieces: Bach 6 3/4, Hammond 12 ML, Hammond 20 BL
savio

*
Offline Offline

Location: Norway
Joined: Aug 10, 2006
Posts: 5123

View Profile WWW
« Reply #65 on: Jul 27, 2017, 11:39AM »

Yes Tom, I really could need a lesson or two with him.

Leif
Logged

Bass Trombone - Conn, Holton
Geezerhorn

*
Offline Offline

Location: PA
Joined: Feb 9, 2012
Posts: 5571
"Lego My Trombone"


View Profile
« Reply #66 on: Jul 28, 2017, 12:24PM »

Interesting differences between a King 4B/F and a Conn 88H - both with a Bach 5G mouthpiece. The King is a little bit more focused, while the Conn has some softer edges to it's sound. Both have big sounds. Both would be great in big band, swing band, concert band, etc. Both would be great on sentimental ballads. Neither would be my pick for fast, lively jazz solos with an edge, although if I had to pick one it would be the King. If I kept both, I would favor the Conn for church work and the King for any chair band work.

Next up is to get to work on a 3G mouthpiece and see if I can learn to make some credible bass trombone sounds on this single-trigger large-bore King.

...Geezer
Logged
savio

*
Offline Offline

Location: Norway
Joined: Aug 10, 2006
Posts: 5123

View Profile WWW
« Reply #67 on: Jul 28, 2017, 03:59PM »

I believe you could make some good bass sounds out of that equipment geezer. It depends more on style,attitude and practice than equipment. I ask both family and trombonists I work with. They don't notice much difference whatever I play. It's more in my head than what really comes out the bell. Never the less, it's good to have equipment we feel comfortable with. It's nothing wrong with single or double bass trombones, depended or independed, Bach or King. We just have to love it, practice it an grow with it. Problem is  when the desire of equipment is higher than the desire to work and develop our self as musicians.

Leif

Logged

Bass Trombone - Conn, Holton
Driving Park

*
Offline Offline

Location: Bloomington, IN
Joined: May 26, 2009
Posts: 718

View Profile WWW
« Reply #68 on: Jul 28, 2017, 04:27PM »

I am tempted.  Already somewhat used to Bb/E with stock configuration.  I guess not many players ever go outside of Bb/F?

I did pretty much every gig when I was exclusively using my 72H. Depending on the tune I would choose to either keep it in F and false tone the occasional B (and sometimes C), or put it in E. Some seriously gnarly licks occurred, like low F to pedal Bb to low B in an 8th note triplet. With the valve in E, that's 6-1-long 7th in very little time. Anything is doable!

I can recommend a lesson with Sven Larsson at the forum to learn the factitious notes as well as other avant garde techniques like circular breathing, split-tones and multiphonics. He is the man!!!

Yes Tom, I really could need a lesson or two with him.

Leif

Me too!!!
Logged

Always WTB: Boosey & Co. ballad horn in C | Distin altophone | King 1147/48 altonium | Boosey/Courtois antoniophones | DEG alto cornet in F
Geezerhorn

*
Offline Offline

Location: PA
Joined: Feb 9, 2012
Posts: 5571
"Lego My Trombone"


View Profile
« Reply #69 on: Jul 28, 2017, 04:43PM »

I believe you could make some good bass sounds out of that equipment geezer. It depends more on style,attitude and practice than equipment. I ask both family and trombonists I work with. They don't notice much difference whatever I play. It's more in my head than what really comes out the bell. Never the less, it's good to have equipment we feel comfortable with. It's nothing wrong with single or double bass trombones, depended or independed, Bach or King. We just have to love it, practice it an grow with it. Problem is  when the desire of equipment is higher than the desire to work and develop our self as musicians.

Leif

Thank you Leif. I think you are right; style, attitude and practice are key to playing well - on any type of equipment.

While I can hear a noticeable difference in the two horns I mentioned above, my wife was not able to discern very much of a difference; even up close. And the further away she got, the more it was lost. But as a saying goes, before we can please others, we must first be able to please ourselves.

...Geezer
Logged
Geezerhorn

*
Offline Offline

Location: PA
Joined: Feb 9, 2012
Posts: 5571
"Lego My Trombone"


View Profile
« Reply #70 on: Jul 29, 2017, 05:18PM »

I think it is interesting that I can hear a difference between both horns with a Bach 5G mpc - with the 88H being the best. And yet, with a Bach 3G mpc, the difference is reversed, with the King having a nicer sound to my ear. So I guess we can not discount the physics of matching a mpc with a horn with a player! I know! Duh! But it's interesting to actually hear it in action.

...Geezer
Logged
mr.deacon
*
Online Online

Location: California
Joined: Mar 16, 2011
Posts: 791

View Profile
« Reply #71 on: Aug 01, 2017, 01:43AM »

I have a question for some of the working professionals.

If any of you took a orchestral audition today would you be comfortable using a single plug horn in a audition?

Considering most if not all auditions are behind a curtain... would taking a single plug horn be crazy or is it just simply a matter of picking the horn you're most comfortable on?
Logged

Minick Custom Bass Trombone, 1980's, Doug Elliott LB
Conn 8H, 1950's, Doug Elliott XT
Kanstul 975 Euph 2007, 11" GB Bell, Doug Elliott XT
bigbassbone1

*
Offline Offline

Location: Los Angeles, CA
Joined: Sep 7, 2012
Posts: 972

View Profile
« Reply #72 on: Aug 01, 2017, 02:51AM »

I have a question for some of the working professionals.

If any of you took a orchestral audition today would you be comfortable using a single plug horn in a audition?

Considering most if not all auditions are behind a curtain... would taking a single plug horn be crazy or is it just simply a matter of picking the horn you're most comfortable on?

Personally I wouldn't. There are a few too many commonly asked excerpts that I believe would be made unnecessarily difficult by only having one valve. Ones that spring to mind are Brahms 1, heldenleben, the entrance of the gods (Rheingold) just to name a few. They are playable on a single valve of course, butI think that most players would find them harder. A few might be able to make them work.

Why limit yourself though? If the sound you get from a single is what you consider to be your best sound then I suppose it's worth it, but you will be competing against people that will have the facility of two valves.... not impossible just unnecessary extra work.
Logged
elmsandr

*
Offline Offline

Location: Howell, MI
Joined: Apr 12, 2004
Posts: 3343

View Profile
« Reply #73 on: Aug 01, 2017, 05:36AM »

I have a question for some of the working professionals.

If any of you took a orchestral audition today would you be comfortable using a single plug horn in a audition?

Considering most if not all auditions are behind a curtain... would taking a single plug horn be crazy or is it just simply a matter of picking the horn you're most comfortable on?
Most audition lists include something that I want the second valve on.  If they had something that DIDN'T require it in any way, I would probably make the change that I would make performing that music... which would be single valve.

If it were an audition format that had any sort of sight reading or added section work with a large selection of excerpts to choose from, I can almost guarantee that the double would be coming.

That said, most of my orchestra days were done on a single.  Even the pops stuff.  Unless there are a ton of B's, I'm generally single.  Or fast C's.  If the C's are big and not too quick (for example the Star Wars stuff off the top of my head), I just pull the F slide a bit for that section to make it more solid.  Thinking about adding a Bartok lever to make that easier, but probably not as it is a lot of effort and money for not much benefit.

Cheers,
Andy
Logged

Andrew Elms
svenlarsson

*
Offline Offline

Location: Enskede, Sweden.
Joined: Sep 15, 2001
Posts: 4567

View Profile WWW
« Reply #74 on: Aug 02, 2017, 02:58AM »

Many bass trombonists today own at least two horns. Often one double and one singel. I use singel and double as it comes, the best tool....
That said, all music I have seen is playeble on a singel, much music is easier on a double.

I do often use one of my singels for lot of reasons.
Logged

Kanstul 1662. Bach 45B. Kanstul 1555. Besson Euphonium. Kanstul 66-S Tuba. Sackbuts in F/E/Eb Bb/A
And several horns I should sell.
blast

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: scotland
Joined: Jul 26, 2001
Posts: 6995
"Bass/Contrabass trombone, Scottish Opera."


View Profile
« Reply #75 on: Aug 02, 2017, 03:44AM »

Many bass trombonists today own at least two horns. Often one double and one singel. I use singel and double as it comes, the best tool....
That said, all music I have seen is playeble on a singel, much music is easier on a double.

I do often use one of my singels for lot of reasons.


And that just about sums it up  Good!

Chris Stearn
Logged

Still cannot think of anything better to do. Back on an old 1 1/2G again !
bigbassbone1

*
Offline Offline

Location: Los Angeles, CA
Joined: Sep 7, 2012
Posts: 972

View Profile
« Reply #76 on: Aug 02, 2017, 04:52AM »

Many bass trombonists today own at least two horns. Often one double and one singel. I use singel and double as it comes, the best tool....
That said, all music I have seen is playeble on a singel, much music is easier on a double.

I do often use one of my singels for lot of reasons.


Yes I think most serious bass trombone players would own both a single and a double for various scenarios. I have a conn 70h which I have used in a lot of Brahms and Mozart stuff, but I find myself using it less and less these days.
I have seen music that I don't think is playable on a single. A lot of modern bass trombone solos come to mind.

The last question though was wether you would be comfortable playing a single in a professional orchestral audition. Is there anyone that has won one recently on a single? I would be curious to know myself.
Logged
wgwbassbone
*
Offline Offline

Location: West Hartford, CT
Joined: Jan 19, 2007
Posts: 1859

View Profile
« Reply #77 on: Aug 02, 2017, 05:24AM »

Many bass trombonists today own at least two horns. Often one double and one singel. I use singel and double as it comes, the best tool....
That said, all music I have seen is playeble on a singel, much music is easier on a double.

I do often use one of my singels for lot of reasons.


Not because I disagree with owning a single valve BUT I own 3 bass trombones, all double dependent horns. I do agree that many pieces can be played on a single valve but I actually like the feeling of a double valve horn. That being said none of my instruments are heavy. One day maybe I'll pick one up.
Logged

Holton TR 180 MV 1 and 1/2G
Geezerhorn

*
Offline Offline

Location: PA
Joined: Feb 9, 2012
Posts: 5571
"Lego My Trombone"


View Profile
« Reply #78 on: Aug 02, 2017, 05:58AM »

Different horns for different uses.

So now I'm thinking my 88H (even if I don't like the trigger) with a Bach 5G mouthpiece will be perfect for church small brass ensemble where I am the only 'bone; for it's classic and dare I say poetic sound.

My King 4B/F seems perfect for large concert band sectional work for it's slightly more focused and big-band sound. A Bach 6.5AL mouthpiece just does not seem like a good match for that particular horn, while a Bach 5G mouthpiece seems okay but perhaps a tad small, while a Bach 3G mouthpiece seems a bit heavy for a 2nd part. So I ordered a Bach 4G mouthpiece. One of those Goldilocks should be just right.

While it is certainly possible, I really don't see myself participating on a bass or 4th trombone part or symphonic part any time soon. So I'm guessing there will be no need to entertain notions of a double-trigger bass trombone. Am I right? I think I'm right. But maybe I am not in my right mind...

...Geezer 
Logged
bonesmarsh
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 22, 2007
Posts: 2213

View Profile
« Reply #79 on: Aug 02, 2017, 06:24AM »

Anything is possible with enough practice. I've owned a single valve Bach, Conn 60H, Conn 72H and a King Symphony. All single valve basses.

Yes, it is possible to lip notes down. But is it the best quality sound, or is it just an acceptable sound to produce the pitch? You can prove that any pitch is possible in any position with enough practice: ie. Phil Wilson using 1st position for a low G on a straight horn.

But after enough practice it is just so much easier to produce the pitches with security and confidence if the length of the horn is long enough so that you can blow THROUGH the horn freely, without lipping.

An extreme example-- I play a regular gig with a huge amplified Christian Pentecostal orchestra. On the stand there are both acoustic contrabass, and amplified electric bass, with with 4 strings or 5 strings. Eventually the choir becomes spoiled--as does the soundman, and they expect to hear a solid pedal CC. ( What, 6 ledgers down?). With a single valve bass pulled to Eb, both pedal BB and pedal CC the very bottom notes, just fall out of the horn when it is the proper length.
    Now, why use a single valve to play the bottom two notes available on a single valve when there is a 5 string electric bass available?
Because there is no decay on the note when played with breath on a brass instrument. The vocal soloist can just sit on their note and be supported by a pedal CC or pedal BB. And on a single valve the attack is 100% secure and can be timed perfectly, without concern for the minute possibility of back-pressure causing a faulty attack.
Logged
wgwbassbone
*
Offline Offline

Location: West Hartford, CT
Joined: Jan 19, 2007
Posts: 1859

View Profile
« Reply #80 on: Aug 02, 2017, 06:54AM »

Anything is possible with enough practice. I've owned a single valve Bach, Conn 60H, Conn 72H and a King Symphony. All single valve basses.

Yes, it is possible to lip notes down. But is it the best quality sound, or is it just an acceptable sound to produce the pitch? You can prove that any pitch is possible in any position with enough practice: ie. Phil Wilson using 1st position for a low G on a straight horn.

But after enough practice it is just so much easier to produce the pitches with security and confidence if the length of the horn is long enough so that you can blow THROUGH the horn freely, without lipping.

An extreme example-- I play a regular gig with a huge amplified Christian Pentecostal orchestra. On the stand there are both acoustic contrabass, and amplified electric bass, with with 4 strings or 5 strings. Eventually the choir becomes spoiled--as does the soundman, and they expect to hear a solid pedal CC. ( What, 6 ledgers down?). With a single valve bass pulled to Eb, both pedal BB and pedal CC the very bottom notes, just fall out of the horn when it is the proper length.
    Now, why use a single valve to play the bottom two notes available on a single valve when there is a 5 string electric bass available?
Because there is no decay on the note when played with breath on a brass instrument. The vocal soloist can just sit on their note and be supported by a pedal CC or pedal BB. And on a single valve the attack is 100% secure and can be timed perfectly, without concern for the minute possibility of back-pressure causing a faulty attack.

So for some clarification do you mean Pedal C or "Low C". As you're also speaking of pedal Bb I'm assuming you mean 2 ledger lines below?
Logged

Holton TR 180 MV 1 and 1/2G
svenlarsson

*
Offline Offline

Location: Enskede, Sweden.
Joined: Sep 15, 2001
Posts: 4567

View Profile WWW
« Reply #81 on: Aug 02, 2017, 07:06AM »

So for some clarification do you mean Pedal C or "Low C". As you're also speaking of pedal Bb I'm assuming you mean 2 ledger lines below?
He mean pedal CC ledger lines and pedal BB (not Bb) 6 ledgers down.
Quote
With a single valve bass pulled to Eb
Did you have the attacment slide rebuilt?
Pull to a good Eb must be the best way. I am thinking of asking my tech to fix one of my trombonbes like that.
Logged

Kanstul 1662. Bach 45B. Kanstul 1555. Besson Euphonium. Kanstul 66-S Tuba. Sackbuts in F/E/Eb Bb/A
And several horns I should sell.
hyperbolica
*
Offline Offline

Location: Eastern US
Joined: Oct 19, 2014
Posts: 1497

View Profile
« Reply #82 on: Aug 02, 2017, 07:17AM »

Pull to a good Eb must be the best way. I am thinking of asking my tech to fix one of my trombonbes like that.

Another guy here (jackbird?) who suggested the Eb tuning on a single valve took a fair bit of grief for it because he used electrical tape instead of solder. I've used an Eb extension, and for the C and B (2 ledger lines down) it works great. It's less good when you have to go E-Eb-E, but that's the trade off. I'm having a plug-in valve made for my Holton TR-159 to make that a lot easier. The 159 is front heavy, and needs the extra weight, and its the horn I put the Eb extension on. The 159 isn't even really a single valve bass, it's just an oversized tenor that happens to sound great down low as well as up high.
Logged
bonesmarsh
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 22, 2007
Posts: 2213

View Profile
« Reply #83 on: Aug 02, 2017, 03:17PM »

I do mean pedal CC and pedal BB, six spaces or 6 lines below the bass clef staff. Eb attachments can be made -- using glue/tape/solder/epoxy for $10 using model rocket tubing that nests into inner and outers.
Logged
Whitbey
*
Offline Offline

Location: Rochester MI USA
Joined: Apr 14, 2000
Posts: 961

View Profile WWW
« Reply #84 on: Aug 02, 2017, 03:53PM »

When I was high school and university age I had a single valve bass. I won the auditions and played all the notes. I practiced low C's and B's in trigger 1st, trigger 2nd and at the end of the slide. Life got easier when I got the funds to buy a double valve bass. But, you play what ya got and practice even more.
I play a straight tenor and just play the low notes or if I am playing a tenor with valve I often play low C with the valve in 1st.

My point. Not everyone has the best horn or the right horn for the job. Does not make them in the wrong mind.

Now I am off to practice some loud double peddles on my tenor. 
Logged

See my profile for my horns. To long to put on each post.
schlitzbeer
*
Offline Offline

Location: Bremerton, WA
Joined: Oct 2, 2012
Posts: 215

View Profile
« Reply #85 on: Aug 02, 2017, 04:27PM »

Many bass trombonists today own at least two horns. Often one double and one singel. I use singel and double as it comes, the best tool....
That said, all music I have seen is playeble on a singel, much music is easier on a double.

I do often use one of my singels for lot of reasons.


I was hoping that a few would come out and state why they did it. I've subbed in a few groups where the conductor questions me about not having a second valve.  I'll grab the single first, but I practice on a dependent just to be ready. I do have 3 total. The 3rd is a spare.
Logged
LowrBrass

*
Offline Offline

Location: Philadelphia-ish, PA
Joined: May 17, 2015
Posts: 413

View Profile
« Reply #86 on: Aug 02, 2017, 08:12PM »

I was hoping that a few would come out and state why they did it. I've subbed in a few groups where the conductor questions me about not having a second valve.  I'll grab the single first, but I practice on a dependent just to be ready. I do have 3 total. The 3rd is a spare.

Seriously? Nobody's directly answered your question in the last five pages?? Shame on us, TTF.

Presumably
(a) it's lighter and easier to hold/play (and anything that makes music-making easier is a good thing)
and
(b) fewer valves = less stuffy

Right?

(I say this not as a single-valve bass trombonist, but as a valve-lover who's contemplated the idea of getting a straight trombone)
Logged
kbiggs

*
Offline Offline

Location: Vancouver WA
Joined: Jun 9, 2006
Posts: 1384

View Profile
« Reply #87 on: Aug 02, 2017, 08:57PM »

Seriously? Nobody's directly answered your question in the last five pages?? Shame on us, TTF.

Presumably
(a) it's lighter and easier to hold/play (and anything that makes music-making easier is a good thing)
and
(b) fewer valves = less stuffy

Right?

(I say this not as a single-valve bass trombonist, but as a valve-lover who's contemplated the idea of getting a straight trombone)

I agree with "presumably"--these seem to be the most common explanations for using a single valve horn.  I'm not sure that "lighter and easier to hold and play" and "fewer valves" are always or should be the deciding factors, though. (I also question the assumption "fewer valves = less stuffy," but that's a different subject.) To me, a more important consideration is whether the single valve horn will have the sound and response I want in the pieces I'm playing. As a lot of people have already described, there are lots of technical solutions to playing low C's and B's on a single-valve horn.
Logged

Kenneth Biggs
Bass & tenor trombone
_______________
“I have known a great many troubles, but most of them never happened.”
  -- Mark Twain
schlitzbeer
*
Offline Offline

Location: Bremerton, WA
Joined: Oct 2, 2012
Posts: 215

View Profile
« Reply #88 on: Aug 02, 2017, 10:52PM »

Seriously? Nobody's directly answered your question in the last five pages?? Shame on us, TTF.

(I say this not as a single-valve bass trombonist, but as a valve-lover who's contemplated the idea of getting a straight trombone)

I haul around 2 horns. Having a straight bone wouldn’t hurt you at all.
Logged
watermailonman

*
Offline Offline

Location: Sweden
Joined: Aug 1, 2004
Posts: 1432
"Do your best and then do better"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #89 on: Aug 03, 2017, 03:28AM »

Seriously? Nobody's directly answered your question in the last five pages?? Shame on us, TTF.

Presumably
(a) it's lighter and easier to hold/play (and anything that makes music-making easier is a good thing)
and
(b) fewer valves = less stuffy

Right?

(I say this not as a single-valve bass trombonist, but as a valve-lover who's contemplated the idea of getting a straight trombone)

Well Chris Stern did infact reply when and why he does. You are right that the thread is not about personal answers but mostly of other things such as if a single tenor can be used as a bass trombone in general and how to play C and B. Of course a tenor can be used as a bass trombone. Not all music needs a true bass or two valves.

I think most of us "don't think we would be in our right mind" if we decline the double on a gig and are stubborn and play things on the single lf we know that we can not execute the music as good as we can on the double.

There are only a few here who can play everything they need on a single and their answer is "yes" to the question. The only one I know here to do that is Sven Larsson.

Obviously very few can play a factitious note and make it sound as good as on their regular position on the double (a conclusion to draw from ALL the threads about false notes at the forum). They who can't need to retune the instrument if they need C or B and they need to lip down those notes at least the B. Maybe this works good enough. Some in the thread say they do this.

Some do have given a special reason to use the single as Kevin Marsh said when he talked about the CC and Chris who said the reason is weight and less tubing and Svenne who can play anything on the single. Some choose the single for sound. Svenne does this and I have heard him use the false tones fluently, and I think he is in his right mind when "he plays the single valve bass". The sound he gets is full and clear just as his other notes and to articulate them is not a problem either. I also heard him do circular breathing on them, with crescendo ;-)

I can play a false tone with good sound but at any professional gig I have had on the bass I have always brought my double, because I don't know what to expect. Even though I have had a double it has happened I played a C or a B as a false note because it is sometimes faster with false tones instead of using two triggers. Speed can be a problem if they are side by side like a Conn 73h or a Yamaha 612R. It could also be a problem on a King Duo Gravis. The Holton TR180 with the "bar" is the next best system. The fastest is to operate the second valve with the middle finger.

There is another thread going on to question who would choose the single in an audition. That is a special context. My guess is all bring a double if they don't know what to expect because of the competition. It is a very rare circumstance and there could be much to loose. What if you have to play a fast chromatic scale down there and can't do false tones? Can you bring two horns? Aspiring professional bass tromboneplayers need to know how to play a double because they do not practice their factitious notes enough. A lost art.

The answers for this thread were there if you just look closely ;-)


And this post by Aidan, three years ago, was very good  Good! It sums up what you have to be able to do in real life on the bass. It is not the most difficult I've seen either, but a single without "false tones" could be very hard in the examples he listed.

I played a single Bach 50B for a few months in undergrad out of necessity. I also own a single 50T now as a backup horn that I love.

But, here's a writeup of my experience with a 50B-

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,79716.0.html

/Tom
« Last Edit: Aug 03, 2017, 02:45PM by watermailonman » Logged

Listen to my playing on soundcloud https://soundcloud.com/user-796193724
Visit my page at https://sites.google.com/site/brazzmusic/

Instruments: King 2b+, Kanstul 1570, Kanstul 1662. m-pieces: Bach 6 3/4, Hammond 12 ML, Hammond 20 BL
svenlarsson

*
Offline Offline

Location: Enskede, Sweden.
Joined: Sep 15, 2001
Posts: 4567

View Profile WWW
« Reply #90 on: Aug 03, 2017, 09:59AM »


Quote
I was hoping that a few would come out and state why they did it

Lighter horn. Easier to hold because you do not need to use the middle finger on a trigger.
Simple the best sounding horns I found are singels.
I do use a double sometimes. ok?
Logged

Kanstul 1662. Bach 45B. Kanstul 1555. Besson Euphonium. Kanstul 66-S Tuba. Sackbuts in F/E/Eb Bb/A
And several horns I should sell.
harrison.t.reed
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colorado
Joined: Apr 5, 2007
Posts: 2756
"Spartan Brass Band!"


View Profile
« Reply #91 on: Aug 03, 2017, 11:09AM »



 Idea!
Logged

"My technique is as good as Initial D"
T-396A - Griego 1C
88HTCL - Griego 1C
36H - DE XT105, C+, D Alto Shank
3B/F Silversonic - Griego 1A ss
pBone (with Yellow bell for bright tone)
Pre59

*
Offline Offline

Location: Devon UK
Joined: May 26, 2015
Posts: 595

View Profile
« Reply #92 on: Aug 03, 2017, 12:12PM »

I've seen a demo of this on Youtube. I don't know what the mod is called, but it looks like a good idea.
Logged

In my reality..
Alex
*
Offline Offline

Location: UK
Joined: Oct 20, 2004
Posts: 1278

View Profile
« Reply #93 on: Aug 03, 2017, 01:21PM »

It seems to me, as bass bone player, that of the people who talk on here about playing a single valve bass trombone, it is not the only bass they have access to.
It seems like an option that they have access to and use it when it is the right tool for the job.
There seem to be others who primarily play tenor and double on bass, and use a single as their bass option, maybe because it does what they need and it save time learning the extra valve.
I dont see too many people playing exclusively on a single valve bass.
From the bass players I come accross in my area, I havent seen any of them on a single.

I used one for 6 months (a Yamaha 321) and hated the first couple of weeks. Then it just clicked, and I really enjoyed it. Having only 1 valve caused me an issue in a few charts, but they were in the minority. I found the weight to be an issue. I found it unbalanced having played an indi for so long. So to me, the single "felt" heavier.
I dont think the experience made me a better player, but if I had to use a single valve bass, it wouldn't bother me. There are a couple of bands i do where a single might give me a bit of a headache, but I reckon I could still do a good enough job to get asked back.
Logged
harrison.t.reed
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colorado
Joined: Apr 5, 2007
Posts: 2756
"Spartan Brass Band!"


View Profile
« Reply #94 on: Aug 03, 2017, 01:43PM »

It's called a Bartok valve.
Logged

"My technique is as good as Initial D"
T-396A - Griego 1C
88HTCL - Griego 1C
36H - DE XT105, C+, D Alto Shank
3B/F Silversonic - Griego 1A ss
pBone (with Yellow bell for bright tone)
svenlarsson

*
Offline Offline

Location: Enskede, Sweden.
Joined: Sep 15, 2001
Posts: 4567

View Profile WWW
« Reply #95 on: Aug 03, 2017, 01:56PM »

Right Alex.
But I did play exlusively single basses for about 20-25 years proffesionelly in bigbands in Sweden and Germany tured in many countries with Symphony orchestras bigbands and internationally artist partisipated in at least 1000 recordings, I did work a lot. The horns where Williams 10 a number of Conn Bach Holton and also Yamaha 321. Even when playing my double Kanstul I do use false tones sometimes to be able to do fast runs or a short loud tones. For long low C and B a double i easier, but still doable on a single.


I did play the Bartok glissand B-F many times on a single to.
Logged

Kanstul 1662. Bach 45B. Kanstul 1555. Besson Euphonium. Kanstul 66-S Tuba. Sackbuts in F/E/Eb Bb/A
And several horns I should sell.
Alex
*
Offline Offline

Location: UK
Joined: Oct 20, 2004
Posts: 1278

View Profile
« Reply #96 on: Aug 03, 2017, 02:17PM »

Yes Svenne, I always read your posts with interest as you make a lot of sense.
I think, in 20 years or so, there will be less and less role models using single valve basses to the point where they will become collectors items.
I only played a single because, at that time, because it was all that was available to me. My Holton 181 was scrapped and I was waiting on my replacement trombone.
I spent enough time to realise I can get by on one valve. I have never been able to do false tones, so I had to be a bit more musically creative on the very few charts that would have been easier with 2 valves.
I honestly think that the single valve bass will eventually be something only seen in the hands of a pro player, using it for his job.
Not because it isnt useable, but more because who can afford 2 basses ?

I dont know what happens in musical education. But how far would a good student of bass bone get in a top college or conservatory using only a single valve bass ? Would they eventually be forced to change, or would the teacher enjoy the challenge of having a really good student to teach them how to use the single valve bass trombone ?
Maybe thats a different discussion.
Logged
Geezerhorn

*
Offline Offline

Location: PA
Joined: Feb 9, 2012
Posts: 5571
"Lego My Trombone"


View Profile
« Reply #97 on: Aug 03, 2017, 05:09PM »

Yes Svenne, I always read your posts with interest as you make a lot of sense.
I think, in 20 years or so, there will be less and less role models using single valve basses to the point where they will become collectors items.
I only played a single because, at that time, because it was all that was available to me. My Holton 181 was scrapped and I was waiting on my replacement trombone.
I spent enough time to realise I can get by on one valve. I have never been able to do false tones, so I had to be a bit more musically creative on the very few charts that would have been easier with 2 valves.
I honestly think that the single valve bass will eventually be something only seen in the hands of a pro player, using it for his job.
Not because it isnt useable, but more because who can afford 2 basses ?

I dont know what happens in musical education. But how far would a good student of bass bone get in a top college or conservatory using only a single valve bass ? Would they eventually be forced to change, or would the teacher enjoy the challenge of having a really good student to teach them how to use the single valve bass trombone ?
Maybe thats a different discussion.

I think your observations and predictions are brilliant.  Good!

The evidence is right under our noses, hiding in plain sight.

...Geezer
Logged
Pre59

*
Offline Offline

Location: Devon UK
Joined: May 26, 2015
Posts: 595

View Profile
« Reply #98 on: Aug 04, 2017, 12:26AM »

It's called a Bartok valve.

Thanks. I was looking at the video and wondering whether using bicycle linkage etc might be more elegant, but thats a new topic..
Logged

In my reality..
blast

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: scotland
Joined: Jul 26, 2001
Posts: 6995
"Bass/Contrabass trombone, Scottish Opera."


View Profile
« Reply #99 on: Aug 04, 2017, 01:02AM »

I was one of that first generation to really embrace the double valve bass trombone. I got my 73H when I was 15 years old. All the guys in the London orchestras then played single valve basses. I wondered why these top players had not run out and bought doubles.... when I asked, they simply said that doubles were too heavy. There was more to it, of course but they were not letting on to a pushy kid.
I have owned and used singles together with doubles since my collage days.... I have auditioned, and won trials, on a single (though I would never recommend it today). I won my job on a Holton TR185 with the slot-in valve.
I need a double available to feel comfortable but often use single set-ups.
What did those top London players avoid telling me all that time ago ???
ALL the best bass trombones I have played have been singles.... that includes the Edwards I had 25 years ago that I bought with the single adaptor as well as the double Thayers.... played better in single mode.... and the Raths I have today that can be configured with one or two Hagmanns.... play better as singles.
Singles respond better... period.
Don't try and boil it down to the gooseneck, simple weight or such like....
They really BLOW and put you in a more simple musical mind set....
On the other hand, I have some great doubles  Evil Evil

Chris Stearn
Logged

Still cannot think of anything better to do. Back on an old 1 1/2G again !
bonesmarsh
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 22, 2007
Posts: 2213

View Profile
« Reply #100 on: Aug 04, 2017, 03:07PM »

One point not mentioned:

Likely .2% of the modern bass bones made are single valve. No student/kid/amateur is going to shell out $5K for a serious single valve when a new double is $6K.

Good luck finding a single less than 35 or 40 years old. Conn hasn't made them since George Roberts screwed up the 110H---- well, Conn did. King hasn't made one since HN White was still alive.

Kanstul makes one. but you'd already have to know how to play a single to make it worth your while to drop that kind of money.

So, how many singles will be left in 20 years? A few, but not many. Not for the curious or the faint of heart either.
Logged
GetzenBassPlayer

*
Offline Offline

Location: Seattle, Washington
Joined: Aug 21, 2002
Posts: 6291
"Learn as little as you have to, as well a"


View Profile
« Reply #101 on: Aug 04, 2017, 05:24PM »

One point not mentioned:

Likely .2% of the modern bass bones made are single valve. No student/kid/amateur is going to shell out $5K for a serious single valve when a new double is $6K.

Good luck finding a single less than 35 or 40 years old. Conn hasn't made them since George Roberts screwed up the 110H---- well, Conn did. King hasn't made one since HN White was still alive.

Kanstul makes one. but you'd already have to know how to play a single to make it worth your while to drop that kind of money.

So, how many singles will be left in 20 years? A few, but not many. Not for the curious or the faint of heart either.


Edwards makes a single. They call it the 427.
Logged

Pro level? Pro level!  You make it pro, you make it good You make it loved and play nice Then its a pro level horn
Leif

I can justify my position with a trombone in my hands and that's good enough for me
Beware wise men bearing equations  C. Stearn
hyperbolica
*
Offline Offline

Location: Eastern US
Joined: Oct 19, 2014
Posts: 1497

View Profile
« Reply #102 on: Aug 04, 2017, 05:47PM »

I like my 70h for small orchestral 3rd part stuff. Also great for olddr bigband 4th book. Works for 40% of my quartet music. It's just lighter and less work and easier to get a good sound. Plus I can get away with a smaller mouthpiece and it meeses with my tenor chops less. Lots of reasons to love single valve bass.
Logged
elmsandr

*
Offline Offline

Location: Howell, MI
Joined: Apr 12, 2004
Posts: 3343

View Profile
« Reply #103 on: Aug 04, 2017, 06:52PM »

One point not mentioned:

Likely .2% of the modern bass bones made are single valve. No student/kid/amateur is going to shell out $5K for a serious single valve when a new double is $6K.

Good luck finding a single less than 35 or 40 years old. Conn hasn't made them since George Roberts screwed up the 110H---- well, Conn did. King hasn't made one since HN White was still alive.

Kanstul makes one. but you'd already have to know how to play a single to make it worth your while to drop that kind of money.

So, how many singles will be left in 20 years? A few, but not many. Not for the curious or the faint of heart either.
So, I was at Bachfest at the Bach plant a few weeks ago... I was surprised by the number of 50B singles I saw in process. I didn't inquire on their current model mix, but it was way more than .2%

Cheers,
Andy
Logged

Andrew Elms
bigbassbone1

*
Offline Offline

Location: Los Angeles, CA
Joined: Sep 7, 2012
Posts: 972

View Profile
« Reply #104 on: Aug 04, 2017, 07:47PM »

So, I was at Bachfest at the Bach plant a few weeks ago... I was surprised by the number of 50B singles I saw in process. I didn't inquire on their current model mix, but it was way more than .2%

Cheers,
Andy

Yeah it doesn't look like it's too hard to get a choice of single basses from bach.
http://www.bachbrass.com/instruments/trombones/professional
Logged
bonesmarsh
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 22, 2007
Posts: 2213

View Profile
« Reply #105 on: Aug 04, 2017, 08:50PM »

They do them in production runs to avoid having to tool up for an individual horn. Next run will be a schwack 'o 42Bs with open wraps....etc etc. etc. etc. etc
Logged
slide advantage
*
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Apr 18, 2016
Posts: 821

View Profile WWW
« Reply #106 on: Aug 04, 2017, 08:54PM »

George Roberts did pretty good on a single trigger bass bone.
Logged
MrPillow
Organologique et plus!

*
Offline Offline

Location: Newport, RI
Joined: Jan 14, 2008
Posts: 1582

View Profile
« Reply #107 on: Aug 04, 2017, 09:06PM »

There are also new single-valve bass trombone offerings from JP Rath, Wessex Tubas, Yamaha, Amati, and a variety of other imported makers.
Logged

King 3B/F Silversonic - King 608F - Holton Paul Whiteman Model
JohnL
Edge Monster

*
Online Online

Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: Aug 1, 2004
Posts: 7227

View Profile WWW
« Reply #108 on: Aug 04, 2017, 09:29PM »

George Roberts did pretty good on a single trigger bass bone.
Not many of us have George's talent. It's one thing to hit a C below the staff. It's a whole 'nother thing to play it in the context of a ballad and have it be just another note rather than something you have to work at. EDIT: And sounds like you're working at it.

I've seen a fair number of people lured by the siren song of the single valve - but they almost always end up going back to the double for most of their playing. There's almost always at least one lick that you need it for.

I play a single at Bones West a lot of the time - but that's on fourth (lowest tenor). If I have to move over to bass, I'm pretty well worn out after a three-hour rehearsal - and that's playing the upper bass line on pieces with six parts.
« Last Edit: Aug 05, 2017, 08:02PM by JohnL » Logged

Question change.
Embrace progress.
Take the time to learn the difference.
savio

*
Offline Offline

Location: Norway
Joined: Aug 10, 2006
Posts: 5123

View Profile WWW
« Reply #109 on: Aug 05, 2017, 01:57AM »

I play a single trigger as my main horn. A conn 60h and sometimes a 70 h. I do it because of the reason Chris Stearn told. That said if I was a young student today aiming for a professional career I would get a double as main horn and a single as second. For me the single is fun to play, good to hold especially the 60h. It has a more responsive and livelier sound, it's more life in it. So its easier to make it sound good and reach out in a concert hall. Both orchestra, big bands and brass ensemble. Just try it folks and you get a surprise. I have a double, but in fact, it's not often I  need it.
Logged

Bass Trombone - Conn, Holton
svenlarsson

*
Offline Offline

Location: Enskede, Sweden.
Joined: Sep 15, 2001
Posts: 4567

View Profile WWW
« Reply #110 on: Aug 05, 2017, 03:58AM »

One point not mentioned:

Likely .2% of the modern bass bones made are single valve. No student/kid/amateur is going to shell out $5K for a serious single valve when a new double is $6K.

Good luck finding a single less than 35 or 40 years old. Conn hasn't made them since George Roberts screwed up the 110H---- well, Conn did. King hasn't made one since HN White was still alive.

Kanstul makes one. but you'd already have to know how to play a single to make it worth your while to drop that kind of money.

So, how many singles will be left in 20 years? A few, but not many. Not for the curious or the faint of heart either.
That is right. My single bones are made 1954, 1980 and 1983.  Most young bassplayers play only double bone. In 20 years from now I will probably not play if I am alive.

Mr Geroge Roberts was famous, Mr Basstrombone! Was he famous for playing singel? Not really, there was many basstrombonists playing singels then. He was famous for playing beautiful a tasty.
Logged

Kanstul 1662. Bach 45B. Kanstul 1555. Besson Euphonium. Kanstul 66-S Tuba. Sackbuts in F/E/Eb Bb/A
And several horns I should sell.
Driving Park

*
Offline Offline

Location: Bloomington, IN
Joined: May 26, 2009
Posts: 718

View Profile WWW
« Reply #111 on: Aug 05, 2017, 08:46AM »

I've seen a fair number of people lured by the siren song of the single valve - but they almost always end up going back to the double for most of their player. There's almost always at least one lick that you need it for.

Although I have and use a double again, after spending a year using a stock 72H for everything (including licks that should really be played a double) I'll never go back to only having a double. With the kind of music people are writing for the instrument nowadays a double makes life a lot easier, but no double plays like a vintage single. It's a different instrument, useful for different things. I'd almost say it's the bass trombonist's equivalent of having a small and a large bore tenor, and I'm more than happy to bring both to a gig.

Plot twist: my double is also a 72H!
Logged

Always WTB: Boosey & Co. ballad horn in C | Distin altophone | King 1147/48 altonium | Boosey/Courtois antoniophones | DEG alto cornet in F
slide advantage
*
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Apr 18, 2016
Posts: 821

View Profile WWW
« Reply #112 on: Aug 05, 2017, 08:52AM »

I don't play bass bone, but I'd say the appeal of a single valve one would be the lighter weight.

I have considered buying a 72H too.
Logged
Gabe Langfur

*
Offline Offline

Location: Boston, MA, USA
Joined: Apr 9, 2000
Posts: 4987

View Profile WWW
« Reply #113 on: Aug 05, 2017, 09:25AM »

I own three bass trombones: 2 singles and a double. I mostly play the double every day for many reasons, but when a single is the right tool I love playing it.

I would not take an audition on a single. Why? Nobody else there will be dealing with that complication on the excerpts that are much easier on a double. I might practice switching between the double and a single and bringing both so that I can be playing the best tool for each job. But that's also an added complication.

Somebody asked who can afford 2 bass trombones...2 bass trombones is much less money than a quality bassoon, and we're still not even in the ballpark of truly great string instruments.

In the orchestral world it's now expected for the principal player to own and play an alto trombone very well. In my opinion, the 2nd and 3rd trombones should own and regularly play instruments to match that alto trombone well, and for me, that's a smaller bass with one valve.
Logged

Gabe Langfur
Bass Trombonist
Rhode Island Philharmonic
Vermont Symphony
Rodney Marsalis Philadelphia Big Brass

Trombone Faculty
Boston University
Kinhaven Music School
Wellesley College

S. E. Shires Artist
harrison.t.reed
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colorado
Joined: Apr 5, 2007
Posts: 2756
"Spartan Brass Band!"


View Profile
« Reply #114 on: Aug 05, 2017, 02:05PM »

Right on, Gabe.
Logged

"My technique is as good as Initial D"
T-396A - Griego 1C
88HTCL - Griego 1C
36H - DE XT105, C+, D Alto Shank
3B/F Silversonic - Griego 1A ss
pBone (with Yellow bell for bright tone)
Alex
*
Offline Offline

Location: UK
Joined: Oct 20, 2004
Posts: 1278

View Profile
« Reply #115 on: Aug 05, 2017, 04:25PM »

Where do we see the future of the single valve bass ?
Modular manufacturers offering single sections, or will the like of Yamaha Bach Conn continue to offer it as part of their line ?

Gabe, it was I who mentioned the cost of owning 2 basses, but it comes from my perspective as an amatuer player.
We are lucky that even our top of the line handmade boutique instruments cost less than a flute head joint. My friends who play bass in my area are all on old kit. They mostly own only 1 bass and that is a double and between tham cover a range of different manufacturers. The work they do is mostly freelance and most of them have a job away from music. This makes owning 2 basses a different proposition. A single sitting in a cupboard becomes an uneccessary luxury.

I can't argue that a single bass isn't easier.
Do they sound better ? Only played one, so can't give a decent answer
I like that whilst it might make some passages technically harder, it also makes it easier on the thought process as you have less ways to play it. The relatively short time I spent on a single, it forced me to play what I saw. You can't worry about whats the best valve combination to use to get the 4th note in the phrase. You dont have that option. A single puts you in a musically simpler place and you just play.
Would I trade my new shiney Rath for a single ? No chance. Would I consider saving for a single valve section ? Yes. Would I use it ? I can't answer that.

Single valve sections supplied for modular instruments might be where the future of the single valve bass will end up. Otherwise, as I said earlier, I believe single valve basses will ultimately be used only by people who use them in their job. I dont see them at all in my smallish amatuer circle and know possibly 1 person locally who owns one.

Logged
elmsandr

*
Offline Offline

Location: Howell, MI
Joined: Apr 12, 2004
Posts: 3343

View Profile
« Reply #116 on: Aug 05, 2017, 07:42PM »

They do them in production runs to avoid having to tool up for an individual horn. Next run will be a schwack 'o 42Bs with open wraps....etc etc. etc. etc. etc
So, I also saw a lot of those... they had a pretty decent mix of everything flowing through.  I'm a manufacturing person, and it didn't really look like batch production.  Looked way more like batch of one, or small single racks mixed up.

What I'm saying is, they have a higher percentage of the market than we would probably expect.  I would guess it is easily >10%, and I would guess what I saw was >20%.  I wonder how many schools are buying singles pushing that up.  Dunno.  Would love to see some data on that if anybody has any.

Cheers,
Andy
Logged

Andrew Elms
JTBandMusic
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Nov 8, 2007
Posts: 85

View Profile
« Reply #117 on: Aug 08, 2017, 07:33PM »

Who plays a single valve bass?

Someone who doesn't want numb fingers and hand cramps!  I played an Olds P24G for a few years and it was torture... sore hand, sore shoulder, and with the weight and poor balance I ended up supporting some of the weight with my right hand, which messed  up slide technique.  Back to tenor for  me!

Ten years later I chanced into a Conn 60h... what a difference!  Better tone, Much more responsive, light and comfortable!  No comparison!  Just those two horns, but I'll never switch.

John Thompson
Logged
Dukesboneman

*
Offline Offline

Location: Sarasota, Fl
Joined: Nov 24, 2003
Posts: 1450

View Profile
« Reply #118 on: Aug 09, 2017, 05:31AM »

My Yamaha 321 with the Instrument Innovations rest bar is incredibly comfortable to hold and play and for what I get called to do so far on Bass, a single is all I need
Logged

“Where words leave off, music begins.”
― Heinrich Heine
donn
*
Offline Offline

Location: Seattle
Joined: Mar 12, 2010
Posts: 620

View Profile
« Reply #119 on: Aug 11, 2017, 09:06AM »

Would it be fair to say, given
  • the enthusiasm for the sound and playing characteristics of single valve bass trombone, and
  • the practical problems encountered when playing arrangements on one
  • -> that arrangers could be doing better, in their bass trombone parts, if someone were to acquaint them with the situation?

I mean, if it's unclear what I'm talking about, suppose we regularly heard bass trombonists saying "well, I'd love to do this one on trombone, but that would be so rugged I'm afraid I'm going to have to get out the baritone saxophone for it."  This hopefully hypothetical situation obviously represents a failure on the part of the arranger, who doesn't know what can reasonably be done on a trombone, and as long as the musician is actually equipped to substitute bari sax, he or she is the least injured party.  The injury is to the music as arranged, and eventually to the arranger.  Substitute multi-valve bass trombone for bari sax.  I realize not everyone holds this opinion, but you can see above quite a number of comments about the musical superiority of bass trombones with only one valve, enough to establish it at least as a reasonable question.
Logged
GetzenBassPlayer

*
Offline Offline

Location: Seattle, Washington
Joined: Aug 21, 2002
Posts: 6291
"Learn as little as you have to, as well a"


View Profile
« Reply #120 on: Aug 11, 2017, 02:08PM »

Would it be fair to say, given
  • the enthusiasm for the sound and playing characteristics of single valve bass trombone, and
  • the practical problems encountered when playing arrangements on one
  • -> that arrangers could be doing better, in their bass trombone parts, if someone were to acquaint them with the situation?

I mean, if it's unclear what I'm talking about, suppose we regularly heard bass trombonists saying "well, I'd love to do this one on trombone, but that would be so rugged I'm afraid I'm going to have to get out the baritone saxophone for it."  This hopefully hypothetical situation obviously represents a failure on the part of the arranger, who doesn't know what can reasonably be done on a trombone, and as long as the musician is actually equipped to substitute bari sax, he or she is the least injured party.  The injury is to the music as arranged, and eventually to the arranger.  Substitute multi-valve bass trombone for bari sax.  I realize not everyone holds this opinion, but you can see above quite a number of comments about the musical superiority of bass trombones with only one valve, enough to establish it at least as a reasonable question.

Those would be the words of a soon to be unemployed bass trombonist. I believe George Roberts tells a story of his early days  in LA replacing a player on a soundtrack recording session who claimed the music was impossible to play.

Composers, good composers write for what is possible on an instrument. Low B and C are easily played on a double valve horn, so composers use them in their music. It is the musician's job to pick the proper equipment that allows them to play the music before them.
Logged

Pro level? Pro level!  You make it pro, you make it good You make it loved and play nice Then its a pro level horn
Leif

I can justify my position with a trombone in my hands and that's good enough for me
Beware wise men bearing equations  C. Stearn
donn
*
Offline Offline

Location: Seattle
Joined: Mar 12, 2010
Posts: 620

View Profile
« Reply #121 on: Aug 11, 2017, 05:21PM »

So fear keeps anyone from mentioning any issues to the arranger?
Logged
bonesmarsh
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 22, 2007
Posts: 2213

View Profile
« Reply #122 on: Aug 11, 2017, 05:53PM »

The arranger is either 1000 miles away from the session/recording/performance or 40 or 50 years of neglecting the single valve horn is to blame.

I recently sat in a session for young arrangers in a local college. Year 3 jazz class. Unless the modern arranger is a hard core nut addicted to classic arrangements, and gets a personal nuts and bolts hard schooling on WHAT works, they aren't going to have a clue about what WAS, much less what should be. Bad transpositions....bad arrangements-- bad disregard for even the basics of range and rhythm.

Somewhere there is some great video of Tony Bennett live in studio with the bass bone player blowing a Conn 72H pulled to bE. Did the arranger care what the bass bone player was doing? Nope/ The producer? Nope? Tony Bennett? Not a chance he cared.

Only one person will care== the player. What does every part of this thread just scream?-- you dance with the horn than brung ya! Unless you began on the horn 30 to 50 years ago, you're not likely to have ever touched a single valve horn.
Logged
GetzenBassPlayer

*
Offline Offline

Location: Seattle, Washington
Joined: Aug 21, 2002
Posts: 6291
"Learn as little as you have to, as well a"


View Profile
« Reply #123 on: Aug 11, 2017, 07:43PM »

So fear keeps anyone from mentioning any issues to the arranger?

You are not talking about something that is unplayable, you are talking about something that might be difficult to play on a single. They will call in a guy who has a double and never call the single player again. If the part is truly unplayable, that is another story, but that is going to have to some kinda part.
Logged

Pro level? Pro level!  You make it pro, you make it good You make it loved and play nice Then its a pro level horn
Leif

I can justify my position with a trombone in my hands and that's good enough for me
Beware wise men bearing equations  C. Stearn
Pre59

*
Offline Offline

Location: Devon UK
Joined: May 26, 2015
Posts: 595

View Profile
« Reply #124 on: Aug 12, 2017, 01:27AM »


I believe George Roberts tells a story of his early days  in LA replacing a player on a soundtrack recording session who claimed the music was impossible to play.


It was actually about timing between the harpist and the bass tbn.

Read all about it and a lot more besides here..

http://www.trombone-usa.com/roberts_george.htm
Logged

In my reality..
hyperbolica
*
Offline Offline

Location: Eastern US
Joined: Oct 19, 2014
Posts: 1497

View Profile
« Reply #125 on: Aug 12, 2017, 08:06AM »

With modularity what it is, I would not be surprised to see a modular bass bone that can be configured as a single, double dependent or double independent. Aside from cost, there is no reason this can't be done.
Logged
Gabe Langfur

*
Offline Offline

Location: Boston, MA, USA
Joined: Apr 9, 2000
Posts: 4987

View Profile WWW
« Reply #126 on: Aug 12, 2017, 08:42AM »

With modularity what it is, I would not be surprised to see a modular bass bone that can be configured as a single, double dependent or double independent. Aside from cost, there is no reason this can't be done.

Of course. All you need is to buy 3 valve sections. I used to carry around single and double dependent rotary valve sections sometimes.
Logged

Gabe Langfur
Bass Trombonist
Rhode Island Philharmonic
Vermont Symphony
Rodney Marsalis Philadelphia Big Brass

Trombone Faculty
Boston University
Kinhaven Music School
Wellesley College

S. E. Shires Artist
schlitzbeer
*
Offline Offline

Location: Bremerton, WA
Joined: Oct 2, 2012
Posts: 215

View Profile
« Reply #127 on: Aug 12, 2017, 08:48AM »

So fear keeps anyone from mentioning any issues to the arranger?

Don’t overlook the guy doing music prep, or the copyist. There’s known cases where the copyist changes, or alters stuff to their liking.
Logged
hyperbolica
*
Offline Offline

Location: Eastern US
Joined: Oct 19, 2014
Posts: 1497

View Profile
« Reply #128 on: Aug 12, 2017, 09:08AM »

Of course. All you need is to buy 3 valve sections. I used to carry around single and double dependent rotary valve sections sometimes.
Well, yeah, but I'm taking about buying a primary valve and a secondary valve and neck pipe, which attach via some high strength connector like the slide tenon, and they can be connected inline or dependent. Just taking modularity to the next level.

And wireless electronic valves.
Logged
kbiggs

*
Offline Offline

Location: Vancouver WA
Joined: Jun 9, 2006
Posts: 1384

View Profile
« Reply #129 on: Aug 12, 2017, 03:22PM »

Well, yeah, but I'm taking about buying a primary valve and a secondary valve and neck pipe, which attach via some high strength connector like the slide tenon, and they can be connected inline or dependent. Just taking modularity to the next level.

And wireless electronic valves.

Do you mean something like this? http://www.edwards-instruments.com/trombone/options/neckpipes.php

Or perhaps the Yamaha 822 for a dependent to single set-up: https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical_instruments/winds/trombones/ybl-822g/index.html

I know several bass trombonists with removable bells who have had a single-valve section made that replaces the independent valve unit. One even had an extra crook in Eb made to play a low B and still have a chromatic instrument.

I know I haven't heard of everything, but I'm certain I haven't heard of wireless electronic valves... yet...
Logged

Kenneth Biggs
Bass & tenor trombone
_______________
“I have known a great many troubles, but most of them never happened.”
  -- Mark Twain
Gabe Langfur

*
Offline Offline

Location: Boston, MA, USA
Joined: Apr 9, 2000
Posts: 4987

View Profile WWW
« Reply #130 on: Aug 13, 2017, 07:02AM »

I would bet it takes me less time to switch out an entire Shires valve section for another than it does to change over any of those detachable second valve options. It's just a matter of money.
Logged

Gabe Langfur
Bass Trombonist
Rhode Island Philharmonic
Vermont Symphony
Rodney Marsalis Philadelphia Big Brass

Trombone Faculty
Boston University
Kinhaven Music School
Wellesley College

S. E. Shires Artist
elmsandr

*
Offline Offline

Location: Howell, MI
Joined: Apr 12, 2004
Posts: 3343

View Profile
« Reply #131 on: Aug 15, 2017, 06:00AM »

Well, yeah, but I'm taking about buying a primary valve and a secondary valve and neck pipe, which attach via some high strength connector like the slide tenon, and they can be connected inline or dependent. Just taking modularity to the next level.

And wireless electronic valves.
I inquired about a drop in valve to Shires with my single.. Their pretty eloquent point, why not just buy a double section.  Well, yeah, I guess...  I now have a Shires single section and a dependent double section.  Still looking for a cost effective independent section to complete that set.

It really is a lot easier to make three standard valve sections than it is to have a hot mess of convertability.  I'm tempted to do this with a double thayer section that I have, just for the design aspect of it, but there is no good reason.

Side note, the reason that those neckpipes for taking off the second valve are fairly prevalent for Thayers is that you kinda need that slip joint anyway so that you can maintain the valves.  That's why you don't see them for other valve types. For other valves, soldered joints are better and easier to make and maintain.

Cheers,
Andy
Logged

Andrew Elms
hyperbolica
*
Offline Offline

Location: Eastern US
Joined: Oct 19, 2014
Posts: 1497

View Profile
« Reply #132 on: Aug 15, 2017, 06:12AM »

I inquired about a drop in valve to Shires with my single.. Their pretty eloquent point, why not just buy a double section.  Well, yeah, I guess...  I now have a Shires single section and a dependent double section.  Still looking for a cost effective independent section to complete that set.

It really is a lot easier to make three standard valve sections than it is to have a hot mess of convertability.  I'm tempted to do this with a double thayer section that I have, just for the design aspect of it, but there is no good reason.

Side note, the reason that those neckpipes for taking off the second valve are fairly prevalent for Thayers is that you kinda need that slip joint anyway so that you can maintain the valves.  That's why you don't see them for other valve types. For other valves, soldered joints are better and easier to make and maintain.

Cheers,
Andy

Now you've bought 5 valves when 2 would have done. I realize that taking modularity to that extreme is a little silly, but it is clearly doable, and for the curious, more efficient than 3 complete valve sets. Plus, to some extent it would allow mix and match valve types. It would require some spatial ingenuity for the second valve lever.
Logged
tbathras
*
Offline Offline

Location: Southern Maine
Joined: Jul 15, 2013
Posts: 968

View Profile
« Reply #133 on: Aug 15, 2017, 08:14AM »

I just picked up a single valve to complete my backup Shires bass.  It'll be a great option to have, but, my double indy set will still be my daily driver for the more advanced groups I'm in.  It will be nice to have this single to take to the other groups where it's just 3rd tenor and low C/B are nearly unheard of.
Logged

"Remember, your trombone is not a weapon!" -Ben van Dijk
elmsandr

*
Offline Offline

Location: Howell, MI
Joined: Apr 12, 2004
Posts: 3343

View Profile
« Reply #134 on: Aug 15, 2017, 08:43AM »

Now you've bought 5 valves when 2 would have done. I realize that taking modularity to that extreme is a little silly, but it is clearly doable, and for the curious, more efficient than 3 complete valve sets. Plus, to some extent it would allow mix and match valve types. It would require some spatial ingenuity for the second valve lever.
Whoa buddy... Just note that you have a lot of value and opinion placed on your basic statements.  Not that I disagree with it, but just acknowledge it.

I wanted a drop in for my single, because as is noted on this thread, there are times a double is much easier, and almost necessary.  That said, I prefer to play a single.  That's why I own it.  However, just counting the number of valves, 2 is less than 3.  However, is the the chunk of brass the hard part in all this?  Not really.  There's more to the assembly of the unit than there is to just the valve.  For fun, check out this http://www.thayervalve.us/price-list/.  The valve cost is only about 50% of the section.  And that doesn't even include the full assembly into the horn.  The going rate for that was $250 twenty years ago.  The additional complexity of the assembly would make the valve alone even less of the total value of the assembly.  So what is the measure of efficiency?  The number of valves?  The total cost?  The total amount of brass required?  The number of hours to produce? The number of fixtures required to produce the item at any scale?  The total cost is probably the measure that would take the broadest measure, and I'm pretty certain that would come out to say that if you are only getting one single and one double, the most efficient is just to have two sections (provided you are already modular).  For all three... well, that is inefficient no matter how you slice it.

I also take issue with the clearly doable... I've been noodling and doodling on this for a couple of years.  It is maybe doable on a thayer system... but even that has some severe challenges that may require three different main tuning slide tubes when you actual design it out.  If you have that much duplication in elements of the section, is it any more efficient just because you have fewer valves?  That all said, If I can figure out a way that makes sense, I'll probably do this just for the fun of doing it.  I do not currently play my independent much and this would be a fun project to work out.  Besides, I'm a much better engineer than a trombone player.  I can package and design this much better than I can hope to play it, so it may happen.  Or, it will just end up being a dependent section because I think it will sound better.

(Is it unfortunate how many hours I have already thought about this?  Probably would be better off just playing long tones instead)

Cheers,
Andy
Logged

Andrew Elms
Geezerhorn

*
Offline Offline

Location: PA
Joined: Feb 9, 2012
Posts: 5571
"Lego My Trombone"


View Profile
« Reply #135 on: Aug 15, 2017, 08:49AM »

I have a 2G on order for my 4B/F. I have the horn tuned to put low B in extended 7th b/c that is an important note in a lot of pop songs I want to play low. It seems doable enough, if I don't mind not having an F or C in 1st. I don't know what other approach to take. The low B's come around to quick to pull the E slide and they are way too important to blow false tones.

I guess the only other thing I could do would be to tune the horn conventionally and just play the low B's up an octave, or find another note that sounds plausible to replace them. Don't know

...Geezer
Logged
hyperbolica
*
Offline Offline

Location: Eastern US
Joined: Oct 19, 2014
Posts: 1497

View Profile
« Reply #136 on: Aug 15, 2017, 09:09AM »

Whoa buddy... Just note that you have a lot of value and opinion placed on your basic statements.  Not that I disagree with it, but just acknowledge it.

I wanted a drop in for my single, because as is noted on this thread, there are times a double is much easier, and almost necessary.  That said, I prefer to play a single.  That's why I own it.  However, just counting the number of valves, 2 is less than 3.  However, is the the chunk of brass the hard part in all this?  Not really.  There's more to the assembly of the unit than there is to just the valve.  For fun, check out this http://www.thayervalve.us/price-list/.  The valve cost is only about 50% of the section.  And that doesn't even include the full assembly into the horn.  The going rate for that was $250 twenty years ago.  The additional complexity of the assembly would make the valve alone even less of the total value of the assembly.  So what is the measure of efficiency?  The number of valves?  The total cost?  The total amount of brass required?  The number of hours to produce? The number of fixtures required to produce the item at any scale?  The total cost is probably the measure that would take the broadest measure, and I'm pretty certain that would come out to say that if you are only getting one single and one double, the most efficient is just to have two sections (provided you are already modular).  For all three... well, that is inefficient no matter how you slice it.

I also take issue with the clearly doable... I've been noodling and doodling on this for a couple of years.  It is maybe doable on a thayer system... but even that has some severe challenges that may require three different main tuning slide tubes when you actual design it out.  If you have that much duplication in elements of the section, is it any more efficient just because you have fewer valves?  That all said, If I can figure out a way that makes sense, I'll probably do this just for the fun of doing it.  I do not currently play my independent much and this would be a fun project to work out.  Besides, I'm a much better engineer than a trombone player.  I can package and design this much better than I can hope to play it, so it may happen.  Or, it will just end up being a dependent section because I think it will sound better.

(Is it unfortunate how many hours I have already thought about this?  Probably would be better off just playing long tones instead)

Cheers,
Andy

Just thinking out loud, really. No harm done.

I do product development, so the design part of this is very interesting to me. You could have V1, V2, neckpipe 1,2, and a replaceable tuning slide for the V1. That's 5 parts. Connections would be a quarter turn mechanism like a mini slide tenon, so they are rigid enough to support weight. V2 would have to have a lever that could be adjustable to place the valve either inline or stacked. So with those 5 subassemblies, you can have a straight horn, a single valve, a dependent or an independent. You could theoretically also add additional valves, either inline or stacked for additional possibilities.

The design is something you do once and amortize across each individual product. Assembly and manufacturing are applied directly to each. So a complex design that simplifies assembly is more efficient. The ability to mix valve types is also interesting.

I'm not saying that I would want a horn like this, or that anyone would want a horn like this. Or for that matter that the horn would play well once you got it (it almost certainly would weigh a good bit more than a conventional soldered horn). It may be that no one thinks like this because our current choices are pretty constrained. Technical problems can sometimes be overcome, but a lack of imagination is the one thing you just can't get past.
Logged
Alex
*
Offline Offline

Location: UK
Joined: Oct 20, 2004
Posts: 1278

View Profile
« Reply #137 on: Aug 15, 2017, 10:24AM »

This topic is fast turning into something I would expect to see on Monty Pythons Now For Something Completely Different.

Stop that, It's silly.
Logged
JohnL
Edge Monster

*
Online Online

Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: Aug 1, 2004
Posts: 7227

View Profile WWW
« Reply #138 on: Aug 15, 2017, 01:02PM »

A three-way convertible? I wouldn't expect to see much demand for that. Typically, one either prefers dependent or independent. Not much common ground in that discussion.
Logged

Question change.
Embrace progress.
Take the time to learn the difference.
mr.deacon
*
Online Online

Location: California
Joined: Mar 16, 2011
Posts: 791

View Profile
« Reply #139 on: Aug 15, 2017, 01:40PM »

For what it's worth... I'm not sure I would ever use any sort of Bartok bass as a full time single valve bass trombone.

As mentioned earlier in the thread... for the few cats who use a single frequently you usually have a couple different ways of tuning the F attachment. In tune low F, slightly flat bF, flatter bF, E and possibly even bE or Eb if you have any sort of additional attachments. A Bartok bass makes it a pain to swap between different tuning systems... totally doable but not something that is my cup of tea.

Note this is coming from someone who doesn't like the main tuning slide triggers on Euphs either. Personally I'd rather just lip or use alt fingerings on Euph then tack the extra weight on my horn and use a tuning trigger.
Logged

Minick Custom Bass Trombone, 1980's, Doug Elliott LB
Conn 8H, 1950's, Doug Elliott XT
Kanstul 975 Euph 2007, 11" GB Bell, Doug Elliott XT
schlitzbeer
*
Offline Offline

Location: Bremerton, WA
Joined: Oct 2, 2012
Posts: 215

View Profile
« Reply #140 on: Aug 15, 2017, 02:38PM »


Note this is coming from someone who doesn't like the main tuning slide triggers on Euphs either. Personally I'd rather just lip or use alt fingerings on Euph then tack the extra weight on my horn and use a tuning trigger.

Couldn’t agree with you more. There’s no way I’m altering my Hirsbrunner for that and the added stress on the hand trying to use it.
Logged
Full Pedal Trombonist

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Jun 16, 2009
Posts: 2987

View Profile
« Reply #141 on: Aug 15, 2017, 10:42PM »

I think if it's critical to your job to have instruments and equipment very tailored to a venue and repertoire then you just get what you need. If that's a small, light single bass and a double and a bass sackbutt and a heavy double bass and a large tenor then so be it. Even if it's just a nice single that you found on eBay for a steal and a great used Shires from the Forum. Just what works will work.

I would call myself a hobbyist and one band I'm in I can get away with playing a single effortlessly while the others I have a double just because it's that much easier.
Logged

We don't just embrace insanity here, we feel it up, french kiss it and then buy it a drink.
Calebmarshallify

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Jun 4, 2013
Posts: 40

View Profile
« Reply #142 on: Sep 07, 2017, 10:50AM »

My college (GVSU) marched bass and for that I played a single valve yamaha bass bone, but i only preferred single valve for marching because it's awful to lug around that double trigger and it's hard on your hand.
Logged
tbathras
*
Offline Offline

Location: Southern Maine
Joined: Jul 15, 2013
Posts: 968

View Profile
« Reply #143 on: Sep 07, 2017, 11:16AM »

I would call myself a hobbyist and one band I'm in I can get away with playing a single effortlessly while the others I have a double just because it's that much easier.

Yup; this is the same boat I find myself in.  If I had to have only one horn, it'd be my double, but it's fun to have a single, too.
Logged

"Remember, your trombone is not a weapon!" -Ben van Dijk
Driving Park

*
Offline Offline

Location: Bloomington, IN
Joined: May 26, 2009
Posts: 718

View Profile WWW
« Reply #144 on: Sep 07, 2017, 11:32AM »

Note this is coming from someone who doesn't like the main tuning slide triggers on Euphs either. Personally I'd rather just lip or use alt fingerings on Euph then tack the extra weight on my horn and use a tuning trigger.

I agree, but mainly because I have yet to find one that isn't ridiculously uncomfortable for the left hand. It would be nice to not have to deal with the ultra-sharp 6th partial, but it's nicer not destroying my hand. That hand gets enough of a workout holding bass trombones.
Logged

Always WTB: Boosey & Co. ballad horn in C | Distin altophone | King 1147/48 altonium | Boosey/Courtois antoniophones | DEG alto cornet in F
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 ... 8 [All]   Go Up
Print
Jump to: