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The Trombone ForumHorns, Gear, and EquipmentInstruments(Moderators: tbone62, slide advantage) Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
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GetzenBassPlayer

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« Reply #120 on: Aug 11, 2017, 02:08PM »

Would it be fair to say, given
  • the enthusiasm for the sound and playing characteristics of single valve bass trombone, and
  • the practical problems encountered when playing arrangements on one
  • -> that arrangers could be doing better, in their bass trombone parts, if someone were to acquaint them with the situation?

I mean, if it's unclear what I'm talking about, suppose we regularly heard bass trombonists saying "well, I'd love to do this one on trombone, but that would be so rugged I'm afraid I'm going to have to get out the baritone saxophone for it."  This hopefully hypothetical situation obviously represents a failure on the part of the arranger, who doesn't know what can reasonably be done on a trombone, and as long as the musician is actually equipped to substitute bari sax, he or she is the least injured party.  The injury is to the music as arranged, and eventually to the arranger.  Substitute multi-valve bass trombone for bari sax.  I realize not everyone holds this opinion, but you can see above quite a number of comments about the musical superiority of bass trombones with only one valve, enough to establish it at least as a reasonable question.

Those would be the words of a soon to be unemployed bass trombonist. I believe George Roberts tells a story of his early days  in LA replacing a player on a soundtrack recording session who claimed the music was impossible to play.

Composers, good composers write for what is possible on an instrument. Low B and C are easily played on a double valve horn, so composers use them in their music. It is the musician's job to pick the proper equipment that allows them to play the music before them.
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« Reply #121 on: Aug 11, 2017, 05:21PM »

So fear keeps anyone from mentioning any issues to the arranger?
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bonesmarsh
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« Reply #122 on: Aug 11, 2017, 05:53PM »

The arranger is either 1000 miles away from the session/recording/performance or 40 or 50 years of neglecting the single valve horn is to blame.

I recently sat in a session for young arrangers in a local college. Year 3 jazz class. Unless the modern arranger is a hard core nut addicted to classic arrangements, and gets a personal nuts and bolts hard schooling on WHAT works, they aren't going to have a clue about what WAS, much less what should be. Bad transpositions....bad arrangements-- bad disregard for even the basics of range and rhythm.

Somewhere there is some great video of Tony Bennett live in studio with the bass bone player blowing a Conn 72H pulled to bE. Did the arranger care what the bass bone player was doing? Nope/ The producer? Nope? Tony Bennett? Not a chance he cared.

Only one person will care== the player. What does every part of this thread just scream?-- you dance with the horn than brung ya! Unless you began on the horn 30 to 50 years ago, you're not likely to have ever touched a single valve horn.
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GetzenBassPlayer

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« Reply #123 on: Aug 11, 2017, 07:43PM »

So fear keeps anyone from mentioning any issues to the arranger?

You are not talking about something that is unplayable, you are talking about something that might be difficult to play on a single. They will call in a guy who has a double and never call the single player again. If the part is truly unplayable, that is another story, but that is going to have to some kinda part.
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« Reply #124 on: Aug 12, 2017, 01:27AM »


I believe George Roberts tells a story of his early days  in LA replacing a player on a soundtrack recording session who claimed the music was impossible to play.


It was actually about timing between the harpist and the bass tbn.

Read all about it and a lot more besides here..

http://www.trombone-usa.com/roberts_george.htm
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« Reply #125 on: Aug 12, 2017, 08:06AM »

With modularity what it is, I would not be surprised to see a modular bass bone that can be configured as a single, double dependent or double independent. Aside from cost, there is no reason this can't be done.
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Gabe Langfur

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« Reply #126 on: Aug 12, 2017, 08:42AM »

With modularity what it is, I would not be surprised to see a modular bass bone that can be configured as a single, double dependent or double independent. Aside from cost, there is no reason this can't be done.

Of course. All you need is to buy 3 valve sections. I used to carry around single and double dependent rotary valve sections sometimes.
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Gabe Langfur
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« Reply #127 on: Aug 12, 2017, 08:48AM »

So fear keeps anyone from mentioning any issues to the arranger?

Don’t overlook the guy doing music prep, or the copyist. There’s known cases where the copyist changes, or alters stuff to their liking.
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hyperbolica
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« Reply #128 on: Aug 12, 2017, 09:08AM »

Of course. All you need is to buy 3 valve sections. I used to carry around single and double dependent rotary valve sections sometimes.
Well, yeah, but I'm taking about buying a primary valve and a secondary valve and neck pipe, which attach via some high strength connector like the slide tenon, and they can be connected inline or dependent. Just taking modularity to the next level.

And wireless electronic valves.
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« Reply #129 on: Aug 12, 2017, 03:22PM »

Well, yeah, but I'm taking about buying a primary valve and a secondary valve and neck pipe, which attach via some high strength connector like the slide tenon, and they can be connected inline or dependent. Just taking modularity to the next level.

And wireless electronic valves.

Do you mean something like this? http://www.edwards-instruments.com/trombone/options/neckpipes.php

Or perhaps the Yamaha 822 for a dependent to single set-up: https://usa.yamaha.com/products/musical_instruments/winds/trombones/ybl-822g/index.html

I know several bass trombonists with removable bells who have had a single-valve section made that replaces the independent valve unit. One even had an extra crook in Eb made to play a low B and still have a chromatic instrument.

I know I haven't heard of everything, but I'm certain I haven't heard of wireless electronic valves... yet...
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Gabe Langfur

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« Reply #130 on: Aug 13, 2017, 07:02AM »

I would bet it takes me less time to switch out an entire Shires valve section for another than it does to change over any of those detachable second valve options. It's just a matter of money.
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Gabe Langfur
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« Reply #131 on: Aug 15, 2017, 06:00AM »

Well, yeah, but I'm taking about buying a primary valve and a secondary valve and neck pipe, which attach via some high strength connector like the slide tenon, and they can be connected inline or dependent. Just taking modularity to the next level.

And wireless electronic valves.
I inquired about a drop in valve to Shires with my single.. Their pretty eloquent point, why not just buy a double section.  Well, yeah, I guess...  I now have a Shires single section and a dependent double section.  Still looking for a cost effective independent section to complete that set.

It really is a lot easier to make three standard valve sections than it is to have a hot mess of convertability.  I'm tempted to do this with a double thayer section that I have, just for the design aspect of it, but there is no good reason.

Side note, the reason that those neckpipes for taking off the second valve are fairly prevalent for Thayers is that you kinda need that slip joint anyway so that you can maintain the valves.  That's why you don't see them for other valve types. For other valves, soldered joints are better and easier to make and maintain.

Cheers,
Andy
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Andrew Elms
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« Reply #132 on: Aug 15, 2017, 06:12AM »

I inquired about a drop in valve to Shires with my single.. Their pretty eloquent point, why not just buy a double section.  Well, yeah, I guess...  I now have a Shires single section and a dependent double section.  Still looking for a cost effective independent section to complete that set.

It really is a lot easier to make three standard valve sections than it is to have a hot mess of convertability.  I'm tempted to do this with a double thayer section that I have, just for the design aspect of it, but there is no good reason.

Side note, the reason that those neckpipes for taking off the second valve are fairly prevalent for Thayers is that you kinda need that slip joint anyway so that you can maintain the valves.  That's why you don't see them for other valve types. For other valves, soldered joints are better and easier to make and maintain.

Cheers,
Andy

Now you've bought 5 valves when 2 would have done. I realize that taking modularity to that extreme is a little silly, but it is clearly doable, and for the curious, more efficient than 3 complete valve sets. Plus, to some extent it would allow mix and match valve types. It would require some spatial ingenuity for the second valve lever.
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« Reply #133 on: Aug 15, 2017, 08:14AM »

I just picked up a single valve to complete my backup Shires bass.  It'll be a great option to have, but, my double indy set will still be my daily driver for the more advanced groups I'm in.  It will be nice to have this single to take to the other groups where it's just 3rd tenor and low C/B are nearly unheard of.
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« Reply #134 on: Aug 15, 2017, 08:43AM »

Now you've bought 5 valves when 2 would have done. I realize that taking modularity to that extreme is a little silly, but it is clearly doable, and for the curious, more efficient than 3 complete valve sets. Plus, to some extent it would allow mix and match valve types. It would require some spatial ingenuity for the second valve lever.
Whoa buddy... Just note that you have a lot of value and opinion placed on your basic statements.  Not that I disagree with it, but just acknowledge it.

I wanted a drop in for my single, because as is noted on this thread, there are times a double is much easier, and almost necessary.  That said, I prefer to play a single.  That's why I own it.  However, just counting the number of valves, 2 is less than 3.  However, is the the chunk of brass the hard part in all this?  Not really.  There's more to the assembly of the unit than there is to just the valve.  For fun, check out this http://www.thayervalve.us/price-list/.  The valve cost is only about 50% of the section.  And that doesn't even include the full assembly into the horn.  The going rate for that was $250 twenty years ago.  The additional complexity of the assembly would make the valve alone even less of the total value of the assembly.  So what is the measure of efficiency?  The number of valves?  The total cost?  The total amount of brass required?  The number of hours to produce? The number of fixtures required to produce the item at any scale?  The total cost is probably the measure that would take the broadest measure, and I'm pretty certain that would come out to say that if you are only getting one single and one double, the most efficient is just to have two sections (provided you are already modular).  For all three... well, that is inefficient no matter how you slice it.

I also take issue with the clearly doable... I've been noodling and doodling on this for a couple of years.  It is maybe doable on a thayer system... but even that has some severe challenges that may require three different main tuning slide tubes when you actual design it out.  If you have that much duplication in elements of the section, is it any more efficient just because you have fewer valves?  That all said, If I can figure out a way that makes sense, I'll probably do this just for the fun of doing it.  I do not currently play my independent much and this would be a fun project to work out.  Besides, I'm a much better engineer than a trombone player.  I can package and design this much better than I can hope to play it, so it may happen.  Or, it will just end up being a dependent section because I think it will sound better.

(Is it unfortunate how many hours I have already thought about this?  Probably would be better off just playing long tones instead)

Cheers,
Andy
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Andrew Elms
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« Reply #135 on: Aug 15, 2017, 08:49AM »

I have a 2G on order for my 4B/F. I have the horn tuned to put low B in extended 7th b/c that is an important note in a lot of pop songs I want to play low. It seems doable enough, if I don't mind not having an F or C in 1st. I don't know what other approach to take. The low B's come around to quick to pull the E slide and they are way too important to blow false tones.

I guess the only other thing I could do would be to tune the horn conventionally and just play the low B's up an octave, or find another note that sounds plausible to replace them. Don't know

...Geezer
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« Reply #136 on: Aug 15, 2017, 09:09AM »

Whoa buddy... Just note that you have a lot of value and opinion placed on your basic statements.  Not that I disagree with it, but just acknowledge it.

I wanted a drop in for my single, because as is noted on this thread, there are times a double is much easier, and almost necessary.  That said, I prefer to play a single.  That's why I own it.  However, just counting the number of valves, 2 is less than 3.  However, is the the chunk of brass the hard part in all this?  Not really.  There's more to the assembly of the unit than there is to just the valve.  For fun, check out this http://www.thayervalve.us/price-list/.  The valve cost is only about 50% of the section.  And that doesn't even include the full assembly into the horn.  The going rate for that was $250 twenty years ago.  The additional complexity of the assembly would make the valve alone even less of the total value of the assembly.  So what is the measure of efficiency?  The number of valves?  The total cost?  The total amount of brass required?  The number of hours to produce? The number of fixtures required to produce the item at any scale?  The total cost is probably the measure that would take the broadest measure, and I'm pretty certain that would come out to say that if you are only getting one single and one double, the most efficient is just to have two sections (provided you are already modular).  For all three... well, that is inefficient no matter how you slice it.

I also take issue with the clearly doable... I've been noodling and doodling on this for a couple of years.  It is maybe doable on a thayer system... but even that has some severe challenges that may require three different main tuning slide tubes when you actual design it out.  If you have that much duplication in elements of the section, is it any more efficient just because you have fewer valves?  That all said, If I can figure out a way that makes sense, I'll probably do this just for the fun of doing it.  I do not currently play my independent much and this would be a fun project to work out.  Besides, I'm a much better engineer than a trombone player.  I can package and design this much better than I can hope to play it, so it may happen.  Or, it will just end up being a dependent section because I think it will sound better.

(Is it unfortunate how many hours I have already thought about this?  Probably would be better off just playing long tones instead)

Cheers,
Andy

Just thinking out loud, really. No harm done.

I do product development, so the design part of this is very interesting to me. You could have V1, V2, neckpipe 1,2, and a replaceable tuning slide for the V1. That's 5 parts. Connections would be a quarter turn mechanism like a mini slide tenon, so they are rigid enough to support weight. V2 would have to have a lever that could be adjustable to place the valve either inline or stacked. So with those 5 subassemblies, you can have a straight horn, a single valve, a dependent or an independent. You could theoretically also add additional valves, either inline or stacked for additional possibilities.

The design is something you do once and amortize across each individual product. Assembly and manufacturing are applied directly to each. So a complex design that simplifies assembly is more efficient. The ability to mix valve types is also interesting.

I'm not saying that I would want a horn like this, or that anyone would want a horn like this. Or for that matter that the horn would play well once you got it (it almost certainly would weigh a good bit more than a conventional soldered horn). It may be that no one thinks like this because our current choices are pretty constrained. Technical problems can sometimes be overcome, but a lack of imagination is the one thing you just can't get past.
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« Reply #137 on: Aug 15, 2017, 10:24AM »

This topic is fast turning into something I would expect to see on Monty Pythons Now For Something Completely Different.

Stop that, It's silly.
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« Reply #138 on: Aug 15, 2017, 01:02PM »

A three-way convertible? I wouldn't expect to see much demand for that. Typically, one either prefers dependent or independent. Not much common ground in that discussion.
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« Reply #139 on: Aug 15, 2017, 01:40PM »

For what it's worth... I'm not sure I would ever use any sort of Bartok bass as a full time single valve bass trombone.

As mentioned earlier in the thread... for the few cats who use a single frequently you usually have a couple different ways of tuning the F attachment. In tune low F, slightly flat bF, flatter bF, E and possibly even bE or Eb if you have any sort of additional attachments. A Bartok bass makes it a pain to swap between different tuning systems... totally doable but not something that is my cup of tea.

Note this is coming from someone who doesn't like the main tuning slide triggers on Euphs either. Personally I'd rather just lip or use alt fingerings on Euph then tack the extra weight on my horn and use a tuning trigger.
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