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The Trombone ForumHorns, Gear, and EquipmentInstruments(Moderators: tbone62, slide advantage) Who in their right mind plays a single valve bass?
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hyperbolica
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« Reply #20 on: Jul 24, 2017, 08:06AM »

I've played a 70h in this context, but my favorite horn for playing single trigger bass stuff has got to be the Holton tr159. King 5b is nice too, but to me, the 159 sounds and feels better as both a bass and a tenor.
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« Reply #21 on: Jul 24, 2017, 08:17AM »

I guess what I'm saying is that you already have an 88 and the 5B isn't going to play much differently. I mean, sure, if you want to drop that kind of bread you can probably find another buyer if you don't like it! But you're probably better off finding a single rotor. The reason I suggested the 6B is the tenor sized rotor, but there are obviously other horns that fit the bill, mentioned in this thread even: 70H, 50B, etc.

That's interesting because I can hear a big difference between my 88H and 3B/F; both with a Bach 5G mpc. I know the horn sizes are different but the sound difference goes beyond that. It is their timbre. Kings have a different quality of sound than Conns do - to my ear. I like them both but hate the trigger on the 88H. Kings are Kings and Conns are Conns. So I would expect to hear quite a difference between my 88H and a 5B. Maybe it wouldn't show up in a recording or maybe a band would cover the difference, but I would expect to hear it. I would expect to hear the timbre of a King, but as large or larger of a sound as my 88H. I also expect to like the trigger. So if I test play one and like it, I will probably buy it and maybe even sell the 88H.

Maybe it's just me, but I can hear one heck of a difference between different horns when I play them.

Now, what are we talking about in a 6B; a factory double dependent trigger or one that has been modified? What little I can find out about them are that they are obscure horns and a PITA if played stock from the factory.

Should I have my 88H trigger replaced with a modern valve? Seems to me, for the money, if I like the sound of a 5B, then why not just buy a 5B. A replacement valve for the 88H would probably cost me as much as I paid for the horn in the first place and kill it's resale value.

If you're thinking of a large-bore King for playing bass trombone parts, it's the 1480, hands down. The 4B and the later 5B (the one with the 4B-style wrap) just don't do as well in the low register.

Here again, a very obscure horn, from what I can find, although supposedly - if you can find one in good condition - a gem of a horn. And I am surprised at your comment that either the 4B or 5B "just don't do well in the low register". My notion of Kings is that they excel in the low registers. Both my 2B and 3B/F are wide open down there (everywhere for that matter); certainly a LOT more open than my 88H down there.

...Geezer
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Matt K

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« Reply #22 on: Jul 24, 2017, 08:55AM »

A couple things to unpack here:


Quote
That's interesting because I can hear a big difference between my 88H and 3B/F; both with a Bach 5G mpc

That's quite expected. The 3BF is a 508 bore and the 88H is a 547 bore. The 88H has a 8.5" bell the 3B an 8" bell.  Both are older horns so who knows what may be influencing the F attachment side between corrision, burrs, etc.  Or misaligned valve ports, etc.

The difference between the 88H and the 5B is going to be much less if for no other reason than the slide bore are much closer.  I've played several 5Bs (or what we call 5Bs, there's some nuance you can find in these threads:

Thread 1
Thread 2
Thread 3

... they have generally been smaller feeling than the 88Hs I've played.  That certainly may have something to do with the 536 slides on some of them.  I've also played some 4Bs that felt the same. Although I will say there was a quite remarkable 4B that a friend of mine picked up and had Jeff Bonk totally rebuild the horn and it plays like a dream, although still plays like a tenor.

If you get one of the ones that has a 547/547 slide, then the only differences between the King you pick up and the Conn 88 will be the .5" in the bell and the construction differences chosen such as tubing, crook (tuning slide & handslide), and leadpipe.  Which isn't to say they are the same horn, they definitely are not. They do play differently. But not nearly as differently as a 508 horn will to a 547 horn.

Quote
Now, what are we talking about in a 6B; a factory double dependent trigger or one that has been modified? What little I can find out about them are that they are obscure horns and a PITA if played stock from the factory.

The reason I suggested the 6B is because they are among the easiest playing basses I've encountered. One reason for that is the 562 sized tubing and rotors I think. Despite what you might think, they dont' play stuffy - at least to me - despite being much smaller than typical bass rotors at .590.  It seems like lots of tenor players doubling on bass have the same perception.

As far as stock or not, the problems people tend to have with the grip is using the 2nd attachment.  Many have been converted to have the Eb or D valve operated with the ring finger, so you may not have to worry about it. If you did find one that is factory original, you'd find that it isn't very expensive to switch over.  There are also devotees of the configuration like myself that find it very comfortable. 

That said, if you had your mind set on a single rotor bass, you *could* find an inexpensive rotor section from a tenor that had a conversion and swap it out. I don't think its necessary though, the 6B isn't a particularly heavy horn and because the thumb goes over the bar, if you aren't a heavy user of the 2nd paddle you probably will find it quite well balanced too.

Quote
Here again, a very obscure horn, from what I can find, although supposedly - if you can find one in good condition - a gem of a horn. And I am surprised at your comment that either the 4B or 5B "just don't do well in the low register". My notion of Kings is that they excel in the low registers. Both my 2B and 3B/F are wide open down there (everywhere for that matter); certainly a LOT more open than my 88H down there.

I found the low range on my King 3BF before I sold it to be actually quite good.  Don't confuse ease of playing with sound though! Small bore horns take less air, and so can be easy to bust out low notes, but that doesn't mean they will sound 'right'! That said, have you had the 88H looked at?  It may well have some corrosion or a leak somewhere.
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« Reply #23 on: Jul 24, 2017, 09:08AM »

This might fit the bill.

https://www.wessex-tubas.com/shop/trombones/tenor-trombone/pbf555-trombone/   
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« Reply #24 on: Jul 24, 2017, 09:17AM »

FWIW I played an old Yamaha single bass. Red or gold brass bell. Lower end model. Oh boy did I like that. Not something I had use for as I was using a Minick 180 for jazz and a 822G for symphony, but if that's all I happened to have I would have been happy. It wasn't heavy and it wasn't awkward. In fact the trumpet professor thought it was a tenor when he was checking it out. I only played it with a bass mouthpiece but I'm sure even with a 3G it could easily double and sound great. I think it could be pulled to E but I never tried.
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« Reply #25 on: Jul 24, 2017, 09:20AM »

A couple things to unpack here:


That's quite expected. The 3BF is a 508 bore and the 88H is a 547 bore. The 88H has a 8.5" bell the 3B an 8" bell.  Both are older horns so who knows what may be influencing the F attachment side between corrision, burrs, etc.  Or misaligned valve ports, etc.

The difference between the 88H and the 5B is going to be much less if for no other reason than the slide bore are much closer.  I've played several 5Bs (or what we call 5Bs, there's some nuance you can find in these threads:

Thread 1
Thread 2
Thread 3

... they have generally been smaller feeling than the 88Hs I've played.  That certainly may have something to do with the 536 slides on some of them.  I've also played some 4Bs that felt the same. Although I will say there was a quite remarkable 4B that a friend of mine picked up and had Jeff Bonk totally rebuild the horn and it plays like a dream, although still plays like a tenor.

If you get one of the ones that has a 547/547 slide, then the only differences between the King you pick up and the Conn 88 will be the .5" in the bell and the construction differences chosen such as tubing, crook (tuning slide & handslide), and leadpipe.  Which isn't to say they are the same horn, they definitely are not. They do play differently. But not nearly as differently as a 508 horn will to a 547 horn.

The reason I suggested the 6B is because they are among the easiest playing basses I've encountered. One reason for that is the 562 sized tubing and rotors I think. Despite what you might think, they dont' play stuffy - at least to me - despite being much smaller than typical bass rotors at .590.  It seems like lots of tenor players doubling on bass have the same perception.

As far as stock or not, the problems people tend to have with the grip is using the 2nd attachment.  Many have been converted to have the Eb or D valve operated with the ring finger, so you may not have to worry about it. If you did find one that is factory original, you'd find that it isn't very expensive to switch over.  There are also devotees of the configuration like myself that find it very comfortable. 

That said, if you had your mind set on a single rotor bass, you *could* find an inexpensive rotor section from a tenor that had a conversion and swap it out. I don't think its necessary though, the 6B isn't a particularly heavy horn and because the thumb goes over the bar, if you aren't a heavy user of the 2nd paddle you probably will find it quite well balanced too.

I found the low range on my King 3BF before I sold it to be actually quite good.  Don't confuse ease of playing with sound though! Small bore horns take less air, and so can be easy to bust out low notes, but that doesn't mean they will sound 'right'! That said, have you had the 88H looked at?  It may well have some corrosion or a leak somewhere.

I thought I covered the size difference. lol It goes beyond that. My two Kings sound like great Kings ought to and my Conn sounds like a great Conn ought to. Size doesn't have anything to do with a certain part of it. A good King has a characteristic sound and a good Conn has it's own characteristic sound, at least to my ears. If a given 4B or a 5B has that good characteristic King sound, then an easier trigger would trump both good sounds.

I had my 88H completely serviced. It sounds Conn-fantastic with a Bach 5G mouthpiece. I just hate the trigger. I love the trigger on my 3B/F. If I find that I love the trigger on a 4B or a 5B and as I stated, they have a great King-fantastic sound, then it's a no-brainer for me.


Looks like a nice horn. I wonder, though if the resell value is above a buck, two ninety eight.

The 4B and the 5B are obscure enough for me.  ;-)

...Geezer
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« Reply #26 on: Jul 24, 2017, 09:52AM »


Quote
I thought I covered the size difference. lol It goes beyond that. My two Kings sound like great Kings ought to and my Conn sounds like a great Conn ought to. Size doesn't have anything to do with a certain part of it. A good King has a characteristic sound and a good Conn has it's own characteristic sound, at least to my ears. If a given 4B or a 5B has that good characteristic King sound, then an easier trigger would trump both good sounds.

That's fair; but in my experience the difference between a King 4B/5B/1408 and an 88H isn't all that big either way!  Just as the difference between a Conn 6H and a 2b+ aren't absolutely that different either.  You're comparing a lot of different things including something that you are admittedly saying is basically impossible to define  ;-)

Quote
I had my 88H completely serviced. It sounds Conn-fantastic with a Bach 5G mouthpiece. I just hate the trigger. I love the trigger on my 3B/F. If I find that I love the trigger on a 4B or a 5B and as I stated, they have a great King-fantastic sound, then it's a no-brainer for me.

The 4B and the 5B are obscure enough for me.  ;-)


With the kings I've played, the horns between 525 and 562 generally play and sound much differently than I'd expect a King to sound. My experience isn't universal though, so take it with a grain of salt!
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« Reply #27 on: Jul 24, 2017, 09:56AM »

Here again, a very obscure horn, from what I can find, although supposedly - if you can find one in good condition - a gem of a horn. And I am surprised at your comment that either the 4B or 5B "just don't do well in the low register". My notion of Kings is that they excel in the low registers. Both my 2B and 3B/F are wide open down there (everywhere for that matter); certainly a LOT more open than my 88H down there.
There, you've gone an misquoted me. I didn't say:
Quote
either the 4B or 5B just don't do well in the low register
I said:
Quote
The 4B and the later 5B (the one with the 4B-style wrap) just don't do as well in the low register.

1480's aren't that obscure, either - King made them for a lot of years. They tend to get sold as 5B's (and were, in fact, listed as the 5B for a while before the redesign). When George McCracken designed the 4BF, he decided to use .547" tubing for the f-attachment; that was carried over to the "new" 5B. The 1480 has .562" tubing in the f-attachment.
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« Reply #28 on: Jul 24, 2017, 09:57AM »

That's fair; but in my experience the difference between a King 4B/5B/1408 and an 88H isn't all that big either way!  Just as the difference between a Conn 6H and a 2b+ aren't absolutely that different either.  You're comparing a lot of different things including something that you are admittedly saying is basically impossible to define  ;-)


With the kings I've played, the horns between 525 and 562 generally play and sound much differently than I'd expect a King to sound. My experience isn't universal though, so take it with a grain of salt!

Lol It's like a judge said about pornography once; I know it when I - in this case - hear it. lol A King is a King and a Conn is a Conn. Love 'em both, but they sound very different to my ear. I can't please others until I can please myself.  Clever

...Geezer
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« Reply #29 on: Jul 24, 2017, 10:01AM »

There, you've gone an misquoted me. I didn't say:I said:
1480's aren't that obscure, either - King made them for a lot of years. They tend to get sold as 5B's (and were, in fact, listed as the 5B for a while before the redesign). When George McCracken designed the 4BF, he decided to use .547" tubing for the f-attachment; that was carried over to the "new" 5B. The 1480 has .562" tubing in the f-attachment.

I stand corrected.

Something - to me - is obscure enough if I can not find a current sale listing on eBay. lol

...Geezer
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« Reply #30 on: Jul 24, 2017, 10:12AM »

There are a couple 2105s at Dillon at the moment:

http://www.dillonmusic.com/c-1011-tenor-trombones.aspx?pagenum=6

I played both of them a few weeks ago. They both play about the same as the other one.  They aren't my cup of tea but they seemed to be in good mechanical condition. Again, stuffier than I'd prefer but some people's 'stuffy' is another persons' 'doesn't take as much air'!

That said, the two single valve basses they have for sale, the Conn 70H and 72H both play excellently to me.  Really, really great specimens that if I had the bread I could see myself using for situations although the Duo Gravis I have works really well for me too so it would be a toss up. The 2015s are a lot cheaper though.
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« Reply #31 on: Jul 24, 2017, 10:20AM »

I have a newer-style King 5B I use for pretty much everything. The 5B is a good fit for me as a large tenor, but it's lacking as a bass. I used to play it all the time as a bass, but as my needs grow, the horn struggles to fill them. I'm writing my own quartets and stuff for my youtube channel, and the bass trombone parts are starting to really push the 5B close to the edge of what it can effectively play. It's impossible for me to cleanly articulate a low C and B (I've tried every type of tonguing I can think of). I have really started to notice the resistance of the F side as well, since the F wrap isn't overbored.

I personally would prefer a double valve bass with a larger bore than the 5B. I played one of those 7B clones and it was like night and day in the low register. Easy to play, valves are surprisingly open, and the tone is glorious. I'd buy one in a heartbeat, if I could afford it. Shoot, from the sounds of it, I'd even trade my 5B for an older 5B/1480.
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« Reply #32 on: Jul 24, 2017, 10:27AM »

I ... hate the trigger on the 88H. ...
Should I have my 88H trigger replaced with a modern valve?

My notion of Kings is that they excel in the low registers. Both my 2B and 3B/F are wide open down there (everywhere for that matter); certainly a LOT more open than my 88H down there.

...Geezer

Geezer,

If your Conn 88H is not open (stuffy?) in the low register and when using the F-attachment (especially compared to the King 2B & 3B/F), there is probably something amiss with your 88H.  I suggest having it carefully examined by a first class tech.   When properly adjusted, aligned, and opened up, the 88H is still a world-class trombone, and should easily outplay your Kings in the low register.  And I, for one, find the thumb lever on the 88H to be much more comfortable (ergonomic) than the awkward 3B/F "trigger."   
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« Reply #33 on: Jul 24, 2017, 10:44AM »

There are a couple 2105s at Dillon at the moment:

http://www.dillonmusic.com/c-1011-tenor-trombones.aspx?pagenum=6


I played both of them a few weeks ago. They both play about the same as the other one.  They aren't my cup of tea but they seemed to be in good mechanical condition. Again, stuffier than I'd prefer but some people's 'stuffy' is another persons' 'doesn't take as much air'!

That said, the two single valve basses they have for sale, the Conn 70H and 72H both play excellently to me.  Really, really great specimens that if I had the bread I could see myself using for situations although the Duo Gravis I have works really well for me too so it would be a toss up. The 2015s are a lot cheaper though.

Personally, I think they are asking too much for those horns. Someone will buy them, but that doesn't mean they will have gotten a good deal. I would be curious to see what the final bid price for them would be if they were listed on an eBay auction at a low starting point. I see similar horns from time-to-time on eBay with similar starting points. They sell eventually but that doesn't tell me what a fair market value is, it just tells me that someone impulsively hit the "buy" button.

Geezer,

If your Conn 88H is not open (stuffy?) in the low register and when using the F-attachment (especially compared to the King 2B & 3B/F), there is probably something amiss with your 88H.  I suggest having it carefully examined by a first class tech.   When properly adjusted, aligned, and opened up, the 88H is still a world-class trombone, and should easily outplay your Kings in the low register.  And I, for one, find the thumb lever on the 88H to be much more comfortable (ergonomic) than the awkward 3B/F "trigger."   

It's of average openness, having tried several in past years. I think my King 3B/F is exceptionally open down there, so perhaps by comparison the 88H seems not as open when in fact it's quite average. It was fully examined and fully serviced. It is in fit working order all around. The tech adjusted the trigger so that it does work as well for me as is possible, given it's structure. I still don't like it. I have learned I am not the only one who doesn't like the 88H trigger, although it might seem like I am today. lol 

Dif'rent strokes. I find the trigger on the 88H - and I've tried a bunch of 88H's, so it's not just my horn - to be difficult for me. Whereas, after working up a proper callus, the trigger on my 3B/F is a dream. But it took working up a proper callus to make it so. Well, us athletes must mold our bodies. Maybe if I could grow a - - - - - different - - - - - 88H-type thumb...

Just as an interesting note b/c it really doesn't mean anything - the tech had to replace the mangled upright brace for the left hand. I guess the previous owner had quite a gorilla grip!

We've probably strayed a bit off topic.

...Geezer
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« Reply #34 on: Jul 24, 2017, 10:49AM »

The asking price at Dillon isnt' set in stone.  You might be surprised if you made an offer that one of them wouldn't get accepted.

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« Reply #35 on: Jul 24, 2017, 10:56AM »

The asking price at Dillon isnt' set in stone.  You might be surprised if you made an offer that one of them wouldn't get accepted.


I might have to make a "Dillon Run"!

On the one hand I wonder if they would take a trade. On the other hand, it would probably be best to get the lowest price one could get for a purchase and then outright sell an unwanted horn on eBay, Craig's List, TTF Classified or the like.

I guess this is sorta on topic in general b/c we have to buy a horn to get a horn, usually.

...Geezer
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« Reply #36 on: Jul 24, 2017, 03:41PM »

Something - to me - is obscure enough if I can not find a current sale listing on eBay.
A 1480 on eBay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/King-F-Attachment-Rotor-Valve-Trombone-/401368236070

and one at Dillon Music:
http://www.dillonmusic.com/p-23069-king-5b-unstamped-professional-bbf.aspx

Dillon's also has an early 1485 (that's a 1480 with a silver bell), but it's pretty pricey.
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« Reply #37 on: Jul 24, 2017, 04:26PM »

A 1480 on eBay:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/King-F-Attachment-Rotor-Valve-Trombone-/401368236070

and one at Dillon Music:
http://www.dillonmusic.com/p-23069-king-5b-unstamped-professional-bbf.aspx

Dillon's also has an early 1485 (that's a 1480 with a silver bell), but it's pretty pricey.

For some odd reason, I missed that listing on eBay. Thanks! I am actually more interested in it than the one at Dillons. If the bidding doesn't get too high, it might be worth it to have it refinished.

So how should the buyer beware on that eBay horn? Is that linkage original or a modification? I see the tuning slide dents. No big deal there. I don't see any red rot, but that doesn't mean it isn't there. I don't see any significant bell dents but that doesn't mean there weren't any that were rolled out once-upon-a-time.

...Geezer
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« Reply #38 on: Jul 24, 2017, 05:25PM »

For some odd reason, I missed that listing on eBay. Thanks! I am actually more interested in it than the one at Dillons. If the bidding doesn't get too high, it might be worth it to have it refinished.
That's a very late 1480; you just make out the "Eastlake, Ohio" on the bell (I leave it to you to check the serial number, should the spirit move you). Volenwein's has a decent reputation and their warranty sounds good. Low risk.
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« Reply #39 on: Jul 24, 2017, 05:36PM »

If you get it at that price, I'd say there's a very, very negligible chance you'll end up spendin gmore than $1k on it.
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