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Author Topic: Jazz trombone for concert band  (Read 2757 times)
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« on: Jul 23, 2017, 02:21PM »

I'm thinking about purchasing a jazz Bb tenor trombone, which I would play in the pep band, jazz band, and concert band at high school and through college.
Would a jazz trombone be appropriate for a concert band or should I stick to my Yamaha student trombone for that?
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« Reply #1 on: Jul 23, 2017, 02:57PM »

A concert band? Sure.

A serious wind band? Probably not.

It really depends on your college. How do they do things?
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« Reply #2 on: Jul 23, 2017, 07:00PM »

In high school, absolutely. Even in college, a jazz horn can be used on concert band kinds of stuff, but there is depends more on the literature, whether the 1st trombone needs to be lighter or heavier. IMHO it can be used a lot more than it typically is in college. Bigger is not always better, even for "serious" stuff. If you end up on 2nd trombone, it actually matters even less. 2nd parts are much more about your ears than your equipment.

So are the other parts, speaking of.
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« Reply #3 on: Jul 23, 2017, 10:07PM »

If it's between buying a new horn and sticking to a Yamaha student horn.... What's the question? The most appropriate horn will be the one that plays/sounds best. Between a Yamaha 354 (i.e .500 bore) and a so-called Jazz horn aka just a small bore horn, +/-500... The Yamaha isn't made more appropriate by its size, and will be of lesser quality.
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« Reply #4 on: Jul 23, 2017, 10:13PM »

Now if your Yamaha is a 356,might be a different question. The larger bore might make you blend with the others better even  though it won't play as nice as your new horn (plus having a trigger does help in a lot of advanced concert band pieces). But you'll want a good small bore horn in college no matter what.
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« Reply #5 on: Jul 24, 2017, 03:49AM »

Ysk 645, 646, or 630 would be better probably ly. Medium bore. Jack of all trades type deal where you could use it for everything. Esp. As an amateur
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« Reply #6 on: Jul 24, 2017, 05:43AM »

I know a few good Jazz players who are playing lead (and small Combo work) on what would be considered a student horn. If your student horn is in good condition and plays well you might want to consider using that as your jazz horn, and getting a Medium or Large bore horn for college concert band.  Even though you may be playing lead now in high school you might find yourself playing second or 3rd parts in College concert band.   
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« Reply #7 on: Jul 25, 2017, 11:21AM »

i just wanna be sure... when folks refer to a 'jazz horn', it just means 'small bore', right? I mean, there are plenty of groups/styles of NON-jazz music where small bore can fit, as well as many opportunities for a "classical" horn to perform in a jazz environment.

Little with semantics I guess
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« Reply #8 on: Jul 25, 2017, 11:32AM »

I can't read the OP's mind, but I think he's talking about smaller bore trombones.  I've played 1st in my community band with anything from a King 2B to a Bach 36 (and larger).  Depends on how snooty the people in the band are.

Yes, I've used some small bores in Orchestra as well.  Sometimes a smaller horn blends better when you are trying to be a bridge to the French Horns.
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« Reply #9 on: Jul 25, 2017, 11:51AM »

Yes, I've used some small bores in Orchestra as well.  Sometimes a smaller horn blends better when you are trying to be a bridge to the French Horns.

This!!!

Who exactly decided we had to play a large bore on 1st, lest we be called wimps?

I used to have a silver plated 1951 6H (which I regretted selling the minute I sold it...). I sold it to a guy who was studying at the college where I was rehearsing, so instead of bringing my 42, one day, I brought the 6H for him and played the rehearsal on it. My section was very skeptical, until we started playing (Rachmaninoff Symphony no. 2). It was the nicest blend and color palette we had in any of that program's rehearsals. Very eye-opening
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« Reply #10 on: Jul 25, 2017, 12:09PM »

I think the same guy (it was probably a guy; I can't imagine a gal doing this) who decided that the only "real" French Horn was a double in F-Bb decided that the only "real" trombone had an F-attachment.  I say fie on him!!

I especially like small bores for intimate ensembles and French rep with only one trombone.  My Bach 36 with its F attachment is good, but a smaller horn like a King 3B-F or Olds Recording with F might even be better.
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« Reply #11 on: Jul 25, 2017, 02:17PM »

100 years ago everyone played small bore trombones.
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« Reply #12 on: Jul 25, 2017, 02:19PM »

100 years ago everyone played small bore trombones.
If your Yamaha is a YSL-354, it's fine for all those things you mentioned.  No need to buy another horn at all.
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« Reply #13 on: Jul 25, 2017, 03:33PM »

"Trombones don't play jazz; people play jazz."

For two years in my university symphonic band, all the tenor trombone players used .525 and .547 instruments, except the section principal, who played circles around everyone on his King 2B.  He was also principal in the university orchestra, using the same instrument.
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« Reply #14 on: Jul 26, 2017, 02:05AM »

"Trombones don't play jazz; people play jazz."
Good!
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« Reply #15 on: Aug 17, 2017, 03:04PM »

If your Yamaha is a YSL-354, it's fine for all those things you mentioned.  No need to buy another horn at all.
Come on Bill, what has 'need' got to do with it?  Playing with my new Stork Custom T3 mp.  Ebay for $10 Cdn!
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« Reply #16 on: Aug 17, 2017, 03:41PM »

Come on Bill, what has 'need' got to do with it?  Playing with my new Stork Custom T3 mp.  Ebay for $10 Cdn!
We need to be able to by trombone stuff without having a need to.

Good price!
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« Reply #17 on: Aug 18, 2017, 10:29AM »

The first trombone parts in most college-level concert band music have more in common with orchestra 2nd-3rd trombone parts than lead jazz bone parts. If I had to pick 'one horn to rule them all' for college (which I pretty much have with the exception of using a different beater) I'd go with a medium or large bore w/ an f-attachment. If you're planning on seriously gigging with a jazz band then you'll probably wear yourself out playing lead on long sets with a large bore, but if you're gonna try and cover a part on say, a Maslanka symphony for wind band, you're gonna have a bad time playing it on an instrument built for jazz.
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« Reply #18 on: Aug 18, 2017, 12:06PM »

The Yamaha 354 IS a great "jazz Bb" trombone. "Student" label be damned!  Max Acree, who I consider to be an up-and-coming giant in modern jazz trombone, plays one exclusively!
You might think about a larger bore. Then you'll have everything covered.
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« Reply #19 on: Aug 18, 2017, 03:46PM »

If you're planning on seriously gigging with a jazz band then you'll probably wear yourself out playing lead on long sets with a large bore
Yeah that will happen. Many moons ago I found myself in 1st chair and all I had for a horn was a King 4B.  After 6 months my chops got used to it aided by a drop down from a 4G TO 6.5AL.  It was strenuous at fist, even with the smaller mouthpiece.
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« Reply #20 on: Aug 18, 2017, 04:17PM »

This!!!

Who exactly decided we had to play a large bore on 1st, lest we be called wimps?

I used to have a silver plated 1951 6H (which I regretted selling the minute I sold it...). I sold it to a guy who was studying at the college where I was rehearsing, so instead of bringing my 42, one day, I brought the 6H for him and played the rehearsal on it. My section was very skeptical, until we started playing (Rachmaninoff Symphony no. 2). It was the nicest blend and color palette we had in any of that program's rehearsals. Very eye-opening

Denis Wick really helped make it happen, but it was already a thing in the US before that.

I think he'd be pretty hard to argue with. Start with Denis.
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« Reply #21 on: Aug 19, 2017, 01:36PM »

Denis Wick really helped make it happen, but it was already a thing in the US before that.

I think he'd be pretty hard to argue with. Start with Denis.

I think Dennis Wick loved .547 horns because he had a huge overbite and needed a big mouthpiece. Large mouthpieces need large horns.
So disappeared small bores trombones from the symphony orchestra. Then they were replaced by an alto trombone Eb, which sounds worse than a small bore tenor. (IMHO)
But Dennis Wick was lucky and he did not play alto trombone.
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« Reply #22 on: Aug 19, 2017, 03:27PM »

Well, this depends on the conductor and the section.

I subbed in a pretty good concert band, and I used my 42B on that occasion. Later, when I decided to join the band, I noticed that most players were using King 3B or equivalent so I started using my .508 891Z.

Things were going well, but when we about the play a more classical program, I brought out my 42B for a rehearsal. At break, I spoke to the conductor, and he simply said: "I need a lead trombone, not a first trombone." OK, so I put the 42B away and I've used my 891Z ever since.

I also subbed in an orchestra under the same conductor, and I asked which sound he wanted. He still wanted the brighter sound, so my 42B is still in its case.
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« Reply #23 on: Aug 19, 2017, 03:45PM »

Thanks for all of the input! It has helped a lot!
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« Reply #24 on: Sep 01, 2017, 05:29PM »

Denis Wick really helped make it happen, but it was already a thing in the US before that.

I think he'd be pretty hard to argue with. Start with Denis.
Yes Emory Remington at Eastman School of Music, as well as principal Trombone with the Rochester Philharmonic worked with CG Conn on the development of the 88H a little bit before Wick, and his influence on US orchestral players, especially those training at Eastman was widespread in the US.
 
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« Reply #25 on: Sep 01, 2017, 06:02PM »

Denis Wick really helped make it happen, but it was already a thing in the US before that.

I think he'd be pretty hard to argue with. Start with Denis.

I vaguely remember hearing a story about DW hearing large bores when Remington was in the UK.
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« Reply #26 on: Sep 02, 2017, 03:27AM »

The Yamaha 354 IS a great "jazz Bb" trombone. "Student" label be damned!  Max Acree, who I consider to be an up-and-coming giant in modern jazz trombone, plays one exclusively!
You might think about a larger bore. Then you'll have everything covered.
Yes! If your horn is in good shape you allready have a good horn! That horn is in no way a lesser quality horn!
Use it for every thing untill you do find that you might need a arger horn in orchestra.
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« Reply #27 on: Sep 05, 2017, 01:38PM »

When my son reports for college football camp he brings his Conn 6H (.500) so he can get some practice in before fall auditions. For the Wind Symphony he plays a Conn 88HTO (.547) and for big band he plays a King 6B (.562 bass).  This winter when he tours Europe with the Wind Orchestra he'll be playing the Conn 88HTO.  I guess you play what your director wants.  Listening to the two big bands at my son's school trombone section in one of the bands is made up primarily of large bore instruments, in my son's band it's King 2B on lead, King 3B's on 2nd and 3rd and my son's King 6B on bass; his band's trombone section sounds fantastic, the other band's trombone section sounds a bit unfocused to me.
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« Reply #28 on: Feb 09, 2018, 08:35PM »

The Yamaha 354 IS a great "jazz Bb" trombone. "Student" label be damned!  Max Acree, who I consider to be an up-and-coming giant in modern jazz trombone, plays one exclusively!
You might think about a larger bore. Then you'll have everything covered.

What he said!  I play a 354 in a big band and in a concert band.  I do use a larger mouthpiece in the concert band but the horn does a great job.  I could pay a couple of thousand dollars and not really gain much.  The Yamaha 354s are an incredible value.  You can't go wrong with one.
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« Reply #29 on: Feb 11, 2018, 04:03AM »

Unless your playing in an extremely “serious” group, I can also verify that a .508 tenor is wonderful in a concert band.   In fact, it’s good for just about everything that doesn’t NEED and F attachment.   

I’ve recently consolidated to only one tenor and a bass, after years of playing lots of sizes. Mostly .525.  I am constantly amazed how well a .508 with a medium mouthpiece is just the right fit in so many situations. And it’s so easy to play.
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« Reply #30 on: Feb 11, 2018, 06:03AM »

In most Community Bans nobody is going to make a fuss about what you are playing if you show you know how to play it.  If you are always in tune and on time you can be playing a kazoo and noboy is going to give a care (well, maybe a kazoo...).  I've played 1st in my Community Ban on a King 2B Silvertone (owned by the band), a Holton Stratodyne, a Bach 36C, and a Yamaha 682.  Nobody cared which horn I was playing.  I sounded like me on all of them. 

If you only own one trombone, you play it wherever you can.  The only time a small bore straight horn is a problem is when you encounter trigger notes in a 3rd part (or 4th in a Big Band).

We had a kid who was planning to major in jazz studies and played his Shires Dease on 1st trombone.  He sounded great.

Too many people listen with eyes rather than ears (yes, I was guilty of this once also).
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« Reply #31 on: Feb 11, 2018, 06:06AM »

Just get a good King 3B as has been mentioned. Unless you’re under, or succumb to, “peer pressure” you’ll survive.

For high school and college band music (concert or jazz) you’ll never see any 1st or 2nd parts that require a trigger horn...ever.

There might be one or two jazz charts with a 3rd part requiring a trigger. But unless you’re playing music especially composed for the Village Vanguard band or another special unit, you don’t need anything bigger than a .510 horn (.508, .509, or eve .500)

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« Reply #32 on: Feb 11, 2018, 08:53AM »

If you only own one trombone, you play it wherever you can.
Yup.  For years all I had was my 4B.  It played in every seat at one time or another, even in pit.
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« Reply #33 on: Feb 11, 2018, 10:02AM »

Thanks for all of the input! It has helped a lot!
What make/model of horn have you been looking at?
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« Reply #34 on: Feb 11, 2018, 12:16PM »

If your Yamaha is a YSL-354, it's fine for all those things you mentioned.  No need to buy another horn at all.

It depends on what size school you go to.  If you are not a music major the only one of those you would probably get into at large school is the marching band.  At a large school the pep band, jazz band, and main wind ensemble/concert bands are filled by auditions.  You would have to be a really good non music major to crack those groups. 

A small school would have more opportunities for you in all of those.  Jazz band and pep in most cases is by audition most of the time unless it is really small.  Concert band is just looking for players at most small schools.
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« Reply #35 on: Feb 11, 2018, 03:47PM »

I'm playing on a Yamaha 354 in a concert band and a jazz band and it works just fine.  I use a larger piece in the concert band (6 3/4C) vs the big band (11c).  Its a great horn. Best wishes in your search.    :)
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