Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

 
Advanced search

1086745 Posts in 71922 Topics- by 19222 Members - Latest Member: adrienneg
Jump to:  
The Trombone ForumTeaching & LearningPractice Room(Moderator: blast) Double buzz - please help
Pages: 1 2 3 [All]   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: Double buzz - please help  (Read 2397 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
trb420
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Feb 28, 2016
Posts: 159

View Profile
« on: Jul 28, 2017, 09:21PM »

I have had a double buzz on the middle Bb partial for a while. It has occurred all around the partial, but is typically centered around G/F#. And it usually manifests itself when I'm tired, but it's gotten much more prevalent as of late. It is really pissing me off and doesn't occur anywhere else in my range. What should I do? I have a downstream embouchure, but everything is very relaxed below middle Bb for me when I play, so I wonder if it's throwing off the lip balance or something like that? I can upload a recording if that helps
Logged
Doug Elliott
Lord of the Rims

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: Mar 12, 2005
Posts: 6651

View Profile
« Reply #1 on: Jul 28, 2017, 10:59PM »

There are many threads about this common problem.  I have written about it and others have too.  Try a search.
Logged

www.DougElliottMouthpieces.com
XT LexanN104,C+,D2, Williams 6, K&H Slokar alto, K&H Slokar Solo .547 open wrap
Geezerhorn

*
Offline Offline

Location: PA
Joined: Feb 9, 2012
Posts: 5557
"Lego My Trombone"


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: Jul 29, 2017, 08:10AM »

I have had a double buzz on the middle Bb partial for a while. It has occurred all around the partial, but is typically centered around G/F#. And it usually manifests itself when I'm tired, but it's gotten much more prevalent as of late. It is really pissing me off and doesn't occur anywhere else in my range. What should I do? I have a downstream embouchure, but everything is very relaxed below middle Bb for me when I play, so I wonder if it's throwing off the lip balance or something like that? I can upload a recording if that helps

It's terribly frustrating, isn't it! It sure was for me when I suffered from it!

Here's something that helped me. I would softly slur from above it down to the pesky double-buzz note. Then from below it softly up to it. I usually did not double-buzz when I hit the note from those angles if the notes above and below it sounded good to begin with. That told me my chops were somehow not configured quite right for that pesky note when I simply tried to articulate it. So I kept at those slurs, trying to remember the feel of the pesky note when it came out nice, until I got my chops re-trained to where I could just put the horn up to my lips and blow it cleanly.

Anyway, for the best possible results, you probably ought to see an instructor one-on-one to help guide you through this.

Best of luck to you!

...Geezer
Logged
sirisobhakya
*
Offline Offline

Location: Hiroshima, Japan
Joined: Jun 7, 2009
Posts: 31

View Profile
« Reply #3 on: Aug 22, 2017, 08:49PM »

You can also try moving mouthpiece up or down. I have read (I think from here), and also witness myself, that some people use one lip for a range of notes, and another lip for another, and double buss can be the result of the two lips fighting each other for dominance. For example, I seem to use lower lip for notes lower than middle G and upper lips for notes higher than that. As a result, I double buzz G sometimes (Gb also). Moving the mouthpiece slightly up helps me.
Logged

Higashihiroshima Wind Ensemble
Yamaha YBL-830 + Yamaha 59
trb420
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Feb 28, 2016
Posts: 159

View Profile
« Reply #4 on: Aug 22, 2017, 09:22PM »

You can also try moving mouthpiece up or down. I have read (I think from here), and also witness myself, that some people use one lip for a range of notes, and another lip for another, and double buss can be the result of the two lips fighting each other for dominance. For example, I seem to use lower lip for notes lower than middle G and upper lips for notes higher than that. As a result, I double buzz G sometimes (Gb also). Moving the mouthpiece slightly up helps me.

Interestingly, recent increases in my practicing have led to me finding a really comfortable mouthpiece placement- lower and slightly off center, and that feels much more grounded and comfortable. The double buzz is now much less of an issue than it was when I posted this thread.
Logged
RobCrowdy

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Dec 3, 2014
Posts: 33

View Profile
« Reply #5 on: Aug 23, 2017, 10:20PM »

Follow Doug's advice; but there is also some very useful information on David Werden's site-

http://www.wilktone.com/?p=722

Cheers
Logged

Lefty JP Rath 231, Yamaha 653
svenlarsson

*
Offline Offline

Location: Enskede, Sweden.
Joined: Sep 15, 2001
Posts: 4556

View Profile WWW
« Reply #6 on: Aug 24, 2017, 02:53AM »

Follow Doug's advice; but there is also some very useful information on David Werden's site-

http://www.wilktone.com/?p=722

Cheers
The double buzz do happen with doubble reeds like basoon and oboe too. And singel reeds as saxophones. What happens is that the reed is uneven, thicker on one side, or harder on one side,and some point in between that dont wibrate, that can result in two wibrations side by side, like a brass embouchure does that permits two appertures. If the embouchure is un even like a flabby lower or upper lip it can result in two appertures, if there is more tension on either the right or left side. Very often a smile embouchure is resulting in two appertures, a long embouchure makes the risk of two appertures. Like more mpc pressure on one side. The idea of one vibration frquency in the upper lip and another in the lower lip can seem logically if not thought about enough, and not understanding how the pulsating work.
The vibrating lips do meet when playing the trombone, if they dont meet there will not be a tone, a sound from rushing air is what you got until the air makes the lips meet. Whe the embouchure is enough un even there can be two different places where the lips meet, and this be different frequencies. That is a double buzz. If you try making a tone in the trombone with only one lip in the mouthpiece, you get no tone unless the lip vibrates against the mouthpiece rim. You need an open/close oscillation to get a tone. Many student do have to wide apperture, or/and a compressed  middle of the embouchure.


The link above can be misstaken for how the doubblebuzz is coming. It is not possible to have on frequence from the upper lip and another from the lower lip in the same area. Where the lip meet is where the sound come from. Doubblebuzz is allways one frequence on the left and another from the right.
Logged

Kanstul 1662. Bach 45B. Kanstul 1555. Besson Euphonium. Kanstul 66-S Tuba. Sackbuts in F/E/Eb Bb/A
And several horns I should sell.
Geezerhorn

*
Offline Offline

Location: PA
Joined: Feb 9, 2012
Posts: 5557
"Lego My Trombone"


View Profile
« Reply #7 on: Aug 24, 2017, 05:30AM »

Interestingly, recent increases in my practicing have led to me finding a really comfortable mouthpiece placement- lower and slightly off center, and that feels much more grounded and comfortable. The double buzz is now much less of an issue than it was when I posted this thread.

 Good! job!

...Geezer
Logged
Falin
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Nov 5, 2015
Posts: 3

View Profile
« Reply #8 on: Aug 24, 2017, 06:08AM »

Follow Doug's advice; but there is also some very useful information on David Werden's site-

http://www.wilktone.com/?p=722

Cheers

Thank you so much for posting this, it was really useful and an eyeopener for me!
Logged
svenlarsson

*
Offline Offline

Location: Enskede, Sweden.
Joined: Sep 15, 2001
Posts: 4556

View Profile WWW
« Reply #9 on: Aug 24, 2017, 06:42AM »

As the doubblebuzz come from so may different issues, there are many different remedies.

For many the corners should move forward, since they are to much far back. (smile)Let the corners snapp forward when starting the tone.

For many there are more tension on one side. Moving the mpc to one side can help.

For many there more mpc pressure on one side. move the way the trombone point, more left or right.

It is right that an embouchure that is totally 50/50 and the lips meet top to top is very hard to control, try to blow more down or up (most often down)

Some other again learn to make a doubblebuzz on purpose, that way they learn to control it.
Logged

Kanstul 1662. Bach 45B. Kanstul 1555. Besson Euphonium. Kanstul 66-S Tuba. Sackbuts in F/E/Eb Bb/A
And several horns I should sell.
Wilktone

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Asheville, NC
Joined: Feb 6, 2010
Posts: 88

View Profile WWW
« Reply #10 on: Aug 24, 2017, 07:09AM »

The link above can be misstaken for how the doubblebuzz is coming. It is not possible to have on frequence from the upper lip and another from the lower lip in the same area. Where the lip meet is where the sound come from. Doubblebuzz is allways one frequence on the left and another from the right.

Svenne, watch the video I posted there again and note the tubist with the half and half placement. His double buzz is exactly where he transitions from upstream to downstream. Regardless of what frequency the lips are trying to vibrate at, they are fighting for predominance at that particular point and this is where the tubist gets his double buzz.

Here's something that helped me. I would softly slur from above it down to the pesky double-buzz note. Then from below it softly up to it. I usually did not double-buzz when I hit the note from those angles if the notes above and below it sounded good to begin with. That told me my chops were somehow not configured quite right for that pesky note when I simply tried to articulate it. So I kept at those slurs, trying to remember the feel of the pesky note when it came out nice, until I got my chops re-trained to where I could just put the horn up to my lips and blow it cleanly.

It's good advice to not practice in a way that encourages your double buzz, but if it's a situation where the mouthpiece placement is too close to half and half, then practicing going from below and above the double buzz like this isn't going to fix the problem and might make it worse. There are different reasons why some folks get a double buzz and it's best to work out why it's happening and fix that issue, rather than simply practicing what works for someone else.

Dave
Logged

Geezerhorn

*
Offline Offline

Location: PA
Joined: Feb 9, 2012
Posts: 5557
"Lego My Trombone"


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: Aug 24, 2017, 07:26AM »

A Moderator said to do a search. This is something I found:

No matter how you go about it, in order to correct a double buzz problem you must first understand what it is. What really causes it. What the mechanism is that makes the "double buzz" sound. I mean...this idea goes right on through ALL considerations of embouchure. Everything happens behind the curtain. Behind the opaque m'pce. Behind the closed doors of the lips. It's a secret world in there, and we must use our minds to open it up.

So...what IS a "double buzz"?

Really.

Never thought about it?

Well...here goes.

A double buzz is what happens when two parts of the aperture...two sides of the buzzing hole between the lips...access two different contiguous partials.

It's really that simple.

Why doesn't it happen very often (if ever) in the higher registers?

The aperture is too small and the tension of the embouchure muscles is too great. No room in the chop, plus the chop muscles are too strong up there.

But in the lower regsiters? (Never higher than 5th partial in my experience. Not on ANY instrument, including tuba.)

In the lower registers, we tend to flop into them if we haven't worked hard at connection from above. Those of you who have been looking at what I have to say for a while will know that I talk a great deal about embouchure and range areas. Settings. That just as a singer (in the Bel Canto school of singing) is considered to have  a head range, a chest range and a mixed range in between them that connects the two, we also have a similar system.

Any NUMBER of areas where this phenomenon can be thought of as being in effect.

And those areas are not only different for different people, they can be different for any player on various equipment combinations and also on different days or even under different conditions during the SAME day.

Hard to pin down. But there, nonetheless.

So...someone has a "double buzz" syndrome. Sometimes consistently for a period of time, sometimes only once in a while.

I have found in my own playing (and also in the playing of any number of students) that this problem can be "fixed"...although it may return when one is out of shape...by the simple expedient of making sure that the two sides of the mouth (the corners) are fairly equal in tension and/or that the left and right sides of the lips themselves are not rolled in or out in different amounts.

A short explanation of that paragraph is in order.

Suppose you had two identical strings on a violin, but they were tuned to different tensions. What would happen if you drew a bow over both of them simultaneously? Different notes, of course.

That's the corners. The tensions.

Now suppose you had two entirely DIFFERENT strings...say a low E and high G string on the same violin...and you put some kind of measuring machine on them, tuned them to precisely the same tension, then drew a bow over them.

What would happen?

Different notes again.

OK. Now take a brass instrument. The partials of a brass instrument tend to discourage certain notes from being sounded while encouraging others. And you are in a position where either your strings (lips) and/or your corners are different on each side of the embouchure. (One side set for a higher range, the other for a lower one...a VERY subtle difference, usually.) When you draw the bow (air) over them, what happens?

Double stops. Two strings vibrating at different pitches. In two contiguous partials.

A double buzz.

Now...this is all fine and dandy, this "explaining".

But you might well say about now. "So WHAT!!!??? What I want to know is how to get RID of the problem."

It's like this.

Identify a note or range area above (and another one below) the range where the double buzz happens that is perfectly secure. Where you can ALWAYS attack notes with no problem, where you have a good sound and no worries. (Relatively.) Then, for however long it takes, do connection exercises (not very fast...long tone approaches, moderate to slow scales, scale patterns and arpeggios, fairly slow harmonics, melodic fragments) from both sides of the problem through to the other side of where you are scuffling. Preferably without taking the m'pce off of your face while you are doing them. (Breathe through your nose or at the very least through the corners of your mouth, but in any case try to keep the m'pce in [gentle but consistent] contact with the chops.)

Continue to practice this way until you succeed in ameliorating the problem.

Until your corners even out and/or until your lips learn the proper balance(s). NEITHER of which balances can by arrived at intellectually. It's a feel thing.


If you approach this correctly...not too much, not too little, in good internal time so that your body can efficiently learn the various adjustments it must make to get from here to there and then back again ...and do it CONSISTENTLY for a fairly short period of time (a week should take care of this, and three weeks will REALLY take care of it)...good-bye double buzz.

Until it comes back again when you start to repeat the same general mistake that brought it on in the first place.

Which is usually flopping down into the lower middle and lower registers without keeping the proper (not too much, not too little) tension at the corners.

The Goldilocks approach.

Juuuuust right.

And when it DOES come back again...why,  you repeat the same course of action.

Of therapy.

CHOP therapy.

And it takes LESS time.

THIS time.

And so on over however many months or years that you find this syndrome happening.

Until eventually you get to a place where you can "fix" it in mid-flight, pretty near.

Example:

For me, this no longer happens on any instrument except tuba. The double I play least often. But sometimes, when I have been playing strenuous tenor parts (which is just about a job description for how I make my living) and I am called to do a tuba or tuba doubling gig, I take out my tuba to prepare for the gig, start to play in the middle register, and get a NASTY double buzz on the third and/or fourth partial.

Nasty.

On tuba it sounds like someone wrote a harmonic interval below what is known as the low interval limits. Where an interval of a third or fourth just doesn't work. Sounds like a musical air hammer going off around the corner or several large helicopters operating at different speeds a few miles away. More of a burble than a buzz. REALLY irritating.

But whenever this happens if I simply readjust the tuba m'pce so it is more centered left to right on my chop...this is the way it works FOR ME, not necessarily for anyone else...the double buzz immediately goes away.

Why?

Because I am not secure on the horn or in the placement of the m'pce, seeing as how I don't play it for months at a time, and I have put the m'pce in a place where one side of my chop is not strong enough to sustain (or TOO strong to sustain) the note that I am trying to play.

After I have played the horn for twenty minutes or so...the double buzz never reappears. Until the NEXT time I neglect it for a long period of time, of course.

And so it goes.

Try this.

It works.

In fact, even if you are NOT getting a double buzz but are experiencing some other problem in most ranges, this imbalance idea is most often the root cause. There are other effective ways to approach the problem, but this is the one that seems to work best for me and for the people that I see as students and in clinic situations.

Try it.

You'll like it.

And...have fun...

Later...

S.

Comments?

...Geezer
Logged
svenlarsson

*
Offline Offline

Location: Enskede, Sweden.
Joined: Sep 15, 2001
Posts: 4556

View Profile WWW
« Reply #12 on: Aug 24, 2017, 07:29AM »

Svenne, watch the video I posted there again and note the tubist with the half and half placement. His double buzz is exactly where he transitions from upstream to downstream. Regardless of what frequency the lips are trying to vibrate at, they are fighting for predominance at that particular point and this is where the tubist gets his double buzz.

It's good advice to not practice in a way that encourages your double buzz, but if it's a situation where the mouthpiece placement is too close to half and half, then practicing going from below and above the double buzz like this isn't going to fix the problem and might make it worse. There are different reasons why some folks get a double buzz and it's best to work out why it's happening and fix that issue, rather than simply practicing what works for someone else.

Dave

Dave, I have watched the video several times, watching closelly it is not easy to see, exept at 1.30. His double buzz is from different frequencies left to right. Actually you can see not how the lips do meet each other since the vibrations are to fast, even at a not so high frequency.

In the middle of the 80th I did many acoustic experiment by my self and together with Jan Allan (professor at the  Royal Institute of Technology) and visited lots of seminars.

A doubble buzz from the voice, reeds and lips are allways from two frequncies side by side.
We did never succed in making a doubble buzz another way.

I do agree with Sam.
The video does not show anything else except that is very diffcult to se what is really happening.
Logged

Kanstul 1662. Bach 45B. Kanstul 1555. Besson Euphonium. Kanstul 66-S Tuba. Sackbuts in F/E/Eb Bb/A
And several horns I should sell.
Doug Elliott
Lord of the Rims

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: Mar 12, 2005
Posts: 6651

View Profile
« Reply #13 on: Aug 24, 2017, 07:46AM »

I now think that's right about the side-to-side different vibration, and I'm the one who originally said it was the bottom lip vibrating differently - BUT - the actual "problem" that causes the "symptom" of a double buzz, is a loss of control of the bottom lip.

That can be from any of the things Sven and Sam mentioned, or from an injury due to playing too loud.

The usual situation is the bottom lip flipping outward when it should be staying in.  Work on keeping the bottom lip tight against the teeth, and limit your volume, and the double buzz will usually go away.
Logged

www.DougElliottMouthpieces.com
XT LexanN104,C+,D2, Williams 6, K&H Slokar alto, K&H Slokar Solo .547 open wrap
Wilktone

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Asheville, NC
Joined: Feb 6, 2010
Posts: 88

View Profile WWW
« Reply #14 on: Aug 24, 2017, 07:56AM »

The different vibration frequencies themselves may happen on different sides of the lips, rather than between the upper and lower lip, but a double buzz can very much be shown to be caused by the half and half placement at the particular range where a player flips between upstream and downstream, as with that tubist on the video.

And I still contend that for a player with that particular issue it is not going to be helpful for them to find a spot where there is a secure note above and below and practice going into the double buzz range. All that this player is going to do is to get better at playing wrong. At best he/she will always be working harder at that point in the range and it's never going to fix the actual issue.

Of course this isn't the only cause of a double buzz and it's maybe not even the most common one. My point here is that advice that helps one player isn't going to always fix the problem that someone else has. Again, best to work out what the actual issue is and fix it.
Logged

Scotzen
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Sep 1, 2009
Posts: 42

View Profile
« Reply #15 on: Aug 24, 2017, 08:14AM »

I think what everyone has written is correct, but these are the things I do when my double buzz starts:
1.  Play softer
2.  warm up initially from tuning note Bb down and up, not from lower notes up.
3. Use a lip vibrato on soft long tones.
4. I tend to find that when my double buzz starts my mouthpiece placement has moved down, so I tend to need to move it up.

Good luck
Logged
svenlarsson

*
Offline Offline

Location: Enskede, Sweden.
Joined: Sep 15, 2001
Posts: 4556

View Profile WWW
« Reply #16 on: Aug 25, 2017, 03:08AM »

The different vibration frequencies themselves may happen on different sides of the lips, rather than between the upper and lower lip, but a double buzz can very much be shown to be caused by the half and half placement at the particular range where a player flips between upstream and downstream, as with that tubist on the video.

And I still contend that for a player with that particular issue it is not going to be helpful for them to find a spot where there is a secure note above and below and practice going into the double buzz range. All that this player is going to do is to get better at playing wrong. At best he/she will always be working harder at that point in the range and it's never going to fix the actual issue.

Of course this isn't the only cause of a double buzz and it's maybe not even the most common one. My point here is that advice that helps one player isn't going to always fix the problem that someone else has. Again, best to work out what the actual issue is and fix it.
Quote
a double buzz can very much be shown to be caused by the half and half placement at the particular range where a player flips between upstream and downstream, as with that tubist on the video.

Absolutely. When the lips are in that position the risk of more the one apperture is big. Actually that is one way to make a splittone, that is actually the same a doubble buzz. Splittone was a pewe for some Swedish composers in the 70th, I was the player. The trouble was to not do splittones afterwards  :)

Could you help the tubaist, what method did you use?

Quote
Again, best to work out what the actual issue is and fix it.

Yes absolutely
Logged

Kanstul 1662. Bach 45B. Kanstul 1555. Besson Euphonium. Kanstul 66-S Tuba. Sackbuts in F/E/Eb Bb/A
And several horns I should sell.
timothy42b
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colonial Heights, Virginia, US
Joined: Dec 7, 2000
Posts: 12294

View Profile
« Reply #17 on: Aug 25, 2017, 05:04AM »

Arnold Jacobs said the ideal embouchure would be 50/50, because then you could get the longest vibrating surface and the best tone.

Of course he also said you should play where it worked best for you, where you got the best tone. 

But generations of tubaists may well have followed the former rather than the latter advice.

This comes from reading conversations on Tubenet, so I don't have a primary source for it.  But there was an anecdote told.  He moved his mouthpiece placement up and to the left, and all of a sudden high range just popped out easily.  But he knew that was wrong, and moved back down. 
Logged

Tim Richardson
svenlarsson

*
Offline Offline

Location: Enskede, Sweden.
Joined: Sep 15, 2001
Posts: 4556

View Profile WWW
« Reply #18 on: Aug 25, 2017, 07:21AM »

Arnold Jacobs said the ideal embouchure would be 50/50, because then you could get the longest vibrating surface and the best tone.

Of course he also said you should play where it worked best for you, where you got the best tone. 

But generations of tubaists may well have followed the former rather than the latter advice.

This comes from reading conversations on Tubenet, so I don't have a primary source for it.  But there was an anecdote told.  He moved his mouthpiece placement up and to the left, and all of a sudden high range just popped out easily.  But he knew that was wrong, and moved back down. 
I do not remember that from Arnold from reading the two famous books and many long talks with Mikael Lind who studied with A.J. But I do remember that he said that you should try to have the mpc pressure equlized to 50/50 the both lips. Apart from that, I have seen so may different mpc placement with fantastic players of all kinds of proportions upp more the down. there is no evidence 50/50 upper/lower lip placement should be the best. Yes I have meet players who at least look that they have 50/50 placement. Good players. Not many tubaplayers though.
Logged

Kanstul 1662. Bach 45B. Kanstul 1555. Besson Euphonium. Kanstul 66-S Tuba. Sackbuts in F/E/Eb Bb/A
And several horns I should sell.
timothy42b
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colonial Heights, Virginia, US
Joined: Dec 7, 2000
Posts: 12294

View Profile
« Reply #19 on: Aug 25, 2017, 07:40AM »

This is a quote from a thread on another list, from someone who studied tuba with Mr. Jacobs.

Quote
Mr. Jacobs did describe what we should do in very general terms. Primarily, Jacobs wanted his students to have a long embouchure (i.e., a long lateral area of lip surface that vibrates). Based on the diameter of the mouthpiece you play, the longest embouchure is possible when the mouthpiece is placed so that the opening between the lips is approximately half way from the top to the bottom of the cup (as seen when looking directly into the cup). He referred to this as playing near the "equator", as opposed to playing close to one of the "poles." Some people think of this as having a 50-50 ratio of upper to lower lip inside the rim.

But he went on to say this:
Quote
The bottom line is that you should allow the mouthpiece and lips to do what they want to do on order to sound great. Start in the middle register and develop excellence there, and then transfer that excellence to the extremes.
Logged

Tim Richardson
Wilktone

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Asheville, NC
Joined: Feb 6, 2010
Posts: 88

View Profile WWW
« Reply #20 on: Aug 25, 2017, 08:59AM »

I know that for many it's considered almost blasphemous to criticize Jacobs, but when it came to his discussion about embouchure I think it's fair to ignore it for more reliable sources.

In my opinion, 50/50 is the worst possible mouthpiece placement to start with. If you want to play the odds, place with more upper lip inside. More lower lip inside works best for a minority of players. 50/50 is rarely going to work, one lip or another should predominate inside the mouthpiece and it shouldn't flip directions like the tubist in the double buzzing video.
Logged

sabutin

*
Offline Offline

Location: NYC
Joined: Sep 26, 2005
Posts: 5420
"A professional freelance NYC lower brass player."


View Profile WWW
« Reply #21 on: Aug 25, 2017, 09:43AM »

A Moderator said to do a search. This is something I found:

Comments?

...Geezer

To simplify:

Double buzz is like a singer having trouble transitioning from an upper register setting to a lower register one. Bel Canto-style vocal teaching speaks of three voices...head voice, mixed voice and chest voice. A high register setting, a low register setting and an area in between those two where one can sing in either voice...a transitional register, perhaps over time becoming even becoming another register of its own. Every brass player that I have ever seen and had them do a diagnostic crossover-the-registers type of test...beginners right through masters... has had not one but multiple sets of easily discerned head-mixed-chest/higher-mixed-lower settings. Not necessarily problematic, but there for the seeing if you know how to look.

The most common areas on trombone are:

1-Around 12th partial F

2-Around 10th partial D

3-Around 7th (or 8th) partial G/Ab

4-Somewhere in the lower part of the 4th partial

5-Somewhere in the lower part of the 3rd partial

And...depending upon rim diameter and mass of lips:

6-Somewhere in the lower part of the 2nd partial

7-Somewhere in the lower part of the trigger 2nd partial

8-Near the pedal G

And...if you are going subsonic:

Several other places down into the triple pedal ranges

Now...nobody who is even an adequate amateur player or student has trouble with all of these transitions. Most of us don't even know that we have them, and that's a good thing. If it works? Fuggedaboudit!!! But when troubles pop up in one's physical playing...not just a double buzz but other transitional or sound problems (also trying to access extreme ranges), these transitional points are a good thing to understand.

They are very easy to observe if you are capable of freebuzzing, fairly easy to access on a cutoff rim or m'pce buzzing if you do those things well and not really all that difficult to feel and hear even on the trombone. (Having a slide helps.) You simply do a fairly slow, fairly quiet set of scalar glisses through a trouble place from good, consistent notes somewhat above and below that area. You will hear/feel a "change" as you go through that area. A subtle turbulence, a change in timbre, even sometimes a total stoppage of sound. There's your transition point. Minimize whatever motions you are depending upon there (Including tongue motions...the back of the tongue, too.) from above and below that mini-range and there you are...playing well. Then do the same thing the next day, and then the next day and the next and the next, etc. until everything is working well.

Problem solved.

Works for me, works for others that I have taught.

Later...

S.
« Last Edit: Aug 26, 2017, 08:26AM by sabutin » Logged

Visit <http://samburtis.com/>. Lots of information on that site in the form of articles plus a link to my method book "Time, Balance & Connections-A Universal Theory Of Brass Relativity" which includes several chapters of the book.
Geezerhorn

*
Offline Offline

Location: PA
Joined: Feb 9, 2012
Posts: 5557
"Lego My Trombone"


View Profile
« Reply #22 on: Aug 26, 2017, 04:17AM »

A while ago, before I found expert instruction, I had to cure a double-buzz on my own. I followed Sam's thinking. It worked. Thanks, Sam!  Good!

...Geezer
Logged
savio

*
Offline Offline

Location: Norway
Joined: Aug 10, 2006
Posts: 5113

View Profile WWW
« Reply #23 on: Aug 26, 2017, 07:39AM »

Im a little of topic, but I dont understand how to make a double buzz? I have tried to make it but it seem impossible?

Leif
Logged

Bass Trombone - Conn, Holton
Geezerhorn

*
Offline Offline

Location: PA
Joined: Feb 9, 2012
Posts: 5557
"Lego My Trombone"


View Profile
« Reply #24 on: Aug 26, 2017, 07:50AM »

Im a little of topic, but I dont understand how to make a double buzz? I have tried to make it but it seem impossible?

Leif

Good for you! Don't tempt it and I hope you get no instructional replies on how to intentionally make one. Who am I kidding, this is TTF!!!!!!!!!

...Geezer
Logged
harrison.t.reed
*
Online Online

Location: Colorado
Joined: Apr 5, 2007
Posts: 2682
"Spartan Brass Band!"


View Profile
« Reply #25 on: Aug 26, 2017, 07:59AM »

Im a little of topic, but I dont understand how to make a double buzz? I have tried to make it but it seem impossible?

Leif

try this:

Prepare to play Ab 

open your jaw slightly and push your lower jaw foreward.

Angle the trombone slide upwards slightly. Or angle your head down.

Overblow the Ab with that embouchure setting, almost as if it was a pedal note

if you don't get a double buzz, do the same as above, but add in a flutter tongue until the double buzz happens.

good luck!
Logged

"My technique is as good as Initial D"
T-396A - Griego 1C
88HTCL - Griego 1C
36H - DE XT105, C+, D Alto Shank
3B/F Silversonic - Griego 1A ss
pBone (with Yellow bell for bright tone)
norbie2009

*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: May 12, 2009
Posts: 196

View Profile
« Reply #26 on: Aug 26, 2017, 09:36AM »

Several years ago I had a double buzz at  . It will occasionally come back after long, loud playing. The solution that works for me is very soft playing in that pitch area and lots of rest. I got the idea from one of several threads here on the forum. It works.
Logged

Still, the only certain thing for sure is what I do not know. -Lyle Lovett
DaveBb
*
Offline Offline

Location: New Zealand
Joined: Jun 1, 2010
Posts: 489

View Profile
« Reply #27 on: Sep 02, 2017, 01:40PM »

I had a recurring double buzz on the middle Bb partial (playing a large bore with a 4g).  Switched to a 3G and it didn't occur, although lost a bit in richness of sound and top end range, and needs more air. 8 months later, tried the 4g again and there's no sign of the double buzz.
I'm guessing that the 3G forced me to change something in my embouchure to make the top and bottom more balanced. It's easy to overthink double buzzing so I'll leave my explanation at that.

Worked for me. Ymmv
Logged
svenlarsson

*
Offline Offline

Location: Enskede, Sweden.
Joined: Sep 15, 2001
Posts: 4556

View Profile WWW
« Reply #28 on: Sep 03, 2017, 02:41AM »

Good for you Dave!
Yes it is a question of balance.
Logged

Kanstul 1662. Bach 45B. Kanstul 1555. Besson Euphonium. Kanstul 66-S Tuba. Sackbuts in F/E/Eb Bb/A
And several horns I should sell.
Raphael boner
*
Offline Offline

Location:
Joined: Feb 24, 2014
Posts: 10

View Profile WWW
« Reply #29 on: Sep 19, 2017, 08:46AM »

Having a double buzz in our sound is a very annoying thing that comes up often for young brass players.

That double buzz can come from a multitude of factors.

I have made a video specifically on that subject ! Check it out :

https://www.raphaelreiter.com/double-buzz-seal-deal/

AIR LEAKS

Make sure there is no air leaking out of the instrument. Most common places for leaks are the water key and badly greased slides.
Taking care of our instruments is very important. Do not underestimate it. Not only for obvious hygiene reasons but also to make sure the instrument is playing at its best capacity. You wouldn't want to practice thousands of hours and then, during your important recital, be let down by a leaking water key. New corks shouldn't cost more than 1 dollar.

FACIAL HAIR

Yup. Men with big mustaches and soul patches look cool. But they often get a double buzz. The reason is pretty simple: Air leaks between the hair and the mouthpiece.

TENSE EMBOUCHURE

One of the most magnificent things about brass playing is that in order to have a beautiful sound, you need to be relaxed. Your shoulders need to be relaxed. Your body needs to be available to play. You embouchure needs to be solid but relaxed.

If it is too tensed up, the lips won't vibrate in an optimal way, and the sound will be poor, often giving this double buzz feeling.  Check out the video for exampl

Any questions? Please send me an email and I'll answer as fast as possible: brasstalks@gmail.com

Want FREE exercises / etudes / solos in your inbox every weekend?
Sign up to my newsletter: http://www.raphaelreiter.com/subscribe
Logged
Doghouse Dan

*
Offline Offline

Location: Winchendon, MA
Joined: Apr 21, 2003
Posts: 578

View Profile
« Reply #30 on: Sep 20, 2017, 03:34PM »

FACIAL HAIR

Yup. Men with big mustaches and soul patches look cool. But they often get a double buzz. The reason is pretty simple: Air leaks between the hair and the mouthpiece.

Just for the record, I have both a big mustache and a soul patch (sadly, I don't look cool) and I don't have any problem with air leakage.



Logged

Dan Walker
I'm warning you - I have a trombone and I'm not afraid to use it...
timothy42b
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colonial Heights, Virginia, US
Joined: Dec 7, 2000
Posts: 12294

View Profile
« Reply #31 on: Sep 21, 2017, 05:03AM »

Just for the record, I have both a big mustache and a soul patch (sadly, I don't look cool) and I don't have any problem with air leakage.





Some time ago Doug suggested I try shaving the mustache, as I was having trouble sliding off the right placement when I moved into the low range.  I did and it seemed to help.  It turned out I like how I look better, also. 
Logged

Tim Richardson
svenlarsson

*
Offline Offline

Location: Enskede, Sweden.
Joined: Sep 15, 2001
Posts: 4556

View Profile WWW
« Reply #32 on: Sep 22, 2017, 05:10AM »

I know that for many it's considered almost blasphemous to criticize Jacobs, but when it came to his discussion about embouchure I think it's fair to ignore it for more reliable sources.

In my opinion, 50/50 is the worst possible mouthpiece placement to start with. If you want to play the odds, place with more upper lip inside. More lower lip inside works best for a minority of players. 50/50 is rarely going to work, one lip or another should predominate inside the mouthpiece and it shouldn't flip directions like the tubist in the double buzzing video.

Absolutely no chance that Arnold Jacobs did recomended to place the mouthpiece 50/50. If you like to know more about Arnold Jacobs there is plenty on the net, on Windsong press you can order the books about him and his methods. As Micheal Lind was my collegue for many years I do know a lot about Arnold Jacobs. This must come from a missunderstanding of what he might have said.
We should remember that many of the world known tubist, trombonist and som trumpet player worship him as the best brass teacher in the world.
Logged

Kanstul 1662. Bach 45B. Kanstul 1555. Besson Euphonium. Kanstul 66-S Tuba. Sackbuts in F/E/Eb Bb/A
And several horns I should sell.
timothy42b
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colonial Heights, Virginia, US
Joined: Dec 7, 2000
Posts: 12294

View Profile
« Reply #33 on: Sep 22, 2017, 06:24AM »

Absolutely no chance that Arnold Jacobs did recomended to place the mouthpiece 50/50.

A tuba player who studied with Jacobs told me that he said to put the mouthpiece where he could get the best sound, BUT also that the most effective embouchure was the longest, which could only be done at 50/50. 

That didn't make sense to me, because I think in terms of aperture, rather than the entire length of embouchure.  I doubt the aperture is as wide as the mouthpiece on any instrument, but maybe that's different for tuba. 
Logged

Tim Richardson
timothy42b
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colonial Heights, Virginia, US
Joined: Dec 7, 2000
Posts: 12294

View Profile
« Reply #34 on: Sep 22, 2017, 06:48AM »

This is from a teacher named Rocco who dedicates his site to Arnold Jacobs:

Quote
EMBOUCHURE LENGTH

Logic tells us that it would be an advantage for tone production to utilize the longest embouchure possible. If we compare an oboe reed with that of a bassoon, the bassoon reed has much greater potential for resonance because of it’s greater size. If we were to place an oboe reed in the bocal of a bassoon, the sound of the bassoon would be very thin.

On a brass instrument, the greatest length of embouchure is achieved when the lips come together to form an aperture (space between lips) at the diameter of the circular rim of the mouthpiece.

Today most brass players, except for horn, place the mouthpiece on their lips in this manner. However, many very successful brass players, including horn players, shift the mouthpiece up or down so there is a difference between vibrating surface areas of the two lips. If the mouthpiece is shifted so the ratio of upper lip to lower lip is 2:1 (most common), there will be a corresponding ratio of surface area set into resonance.

Logic doesn't tell me that, but then maybe I just missed it.
Logged

Tim Richardson
Wilktone

*
*
Offline Offline

Location: Asheville, NC
Joined: Feb 6, 2010
Posts: 88

View Profile WWW
« Reply #35 on: Sep 22, 2017, 08:04AM »

Regardless of whether Jacobs ever suggested 50/50 placement was ideal, I feel my points earlier are completely valid.

Quote
We should remember that many of the world known tubist, trombonist and som trumpet player worship him as the best brass teacher in the world.

Svenne, I understand that you're communicating in your non-native language. Many native English speakers also use the term "worship" in a similar context and they mean it metaphorically. Unfortunately, in practice we end up interpreting what Jacobs supposedly said or wrote as "gospel truth." Former students sometimes are even described as "disciples." This isn't just a problem with former students of Jacobs's, but with students who studied or follow the approaches of a myriad of other well-known pedagogues. In my opinion, it's better to look at what they said (and what they did - not always the same thing) and evaluate it on its own merits.

While I find Jacobs's work on respiration and the application of the anatomy of breathing to performing on a brass instrument to be extremely valuable, his discussions on embouchure are lacking. Here is one example that is directly relevant to the topic of a double buzz:

Quote
A common problem is that of a double buzz, or as Jacobs calls it, “segmentation.” This happens when the embouchure is set for vibrations higher than what is actually desired. A major factor is insufficient air to fuel the vibration. It is, in fact, hardly ever an embouchure problem. The tongue’s position is too high and forward in the mouth. To correct segmentation, adjust the embouchure to vibrate at the pitch that is desired – play with a thicker air stream and keep the embouchure open.

"Arnold Jacobs: Song and Wind," Frederikson  (1996), p. 126.

First, this short paragraph is contrary to Jacobs's normal stance that one should always address embouchure problems through focus on music and breathing. Instead, he recommended to "keep the embouchure open." Secondly, while I can see how this advice can help some folks with a double buzz, Doug pointed out how many of the issues in a double buzz are related to a loss of control of the lower lip. Compare Jacobs's advice to Doug's:

Quote
The usual situation is the bottom lip flipping outward when it should be staying in.  Work on keeping the bottom lip tight against the teeth, and limit your volume, and the double buzz will usually go away.

Keeping the embouchure "open" seems to be the exact opposite approach of what Doug is recommending here.

There are other pedagogues and approaches that, in my opinion, more correctly target the issue of a double buzz (and embouchure in general) than Jacobs's.

Dave
Logged

svenlarsson

*
Offline Offline

Location: Enskede, Sweden.
Joined: Sep 15, 2001
Posts: 4556

View Profile WWW
« Reply #36 on: Sep 22, 2017, 09:09AM »

Quote
Svenne, I understand that you're communicating in your non-native language. Many native English speakers also use the term "worship" in a similar context and they mean it metaphorically.
Thankyou for correcting.

The doubble buzz is a funny issue, there are so many ways you make a doubble buzz, and so many way to make it go away. Sometimes keeping the embouchure does work. Also, how do you keep the embouchure open? I can get a doubble buzz just by in a way keeping the embouchure open, I can also get a doubble buzz playing very soft, I can get a doubble buzz keep the bottom lip against the lower teeth. (As you know there was a time when I got paid to perform doubble buzz).
Fredriksons book is a good work (of worship I would say)about Arnold Jacobs, Arnold may have given that advice to someone I don´t know, it might have worked that time. I would not give that advice to someone without knowing the problem. As I remember, that book is the most famous about Arnold Jacobs. Stewarts book ARNOLD JACOBS, THE LEGACY OF A MASTER, is in my opnion a better book if you like to get close to his methods of teaching.
Logged

Kanstul 1662. Bach 45B. Kanstul 1555. Besson Euphonium. Kanstul 66-S Tuba. Sackbuts in F/E/Eb Bb/A
And several horns I should sell.
svenlarsson

*
Offline Offline

Location: Enskede, Sweden.
Joined: Sep 15, 2001
Posts: 4556

View Profile WWW
« Reply #37 on: Sep 22, 2017, 09:54AM »

This is from a teacher named Rocco who dedicates his site to Arnold Jacobs:

Logic doesn't tell me that, but then maybe I just missed it.

I found his site, tried to find the comment but I did not find it. It was a comment from Rocco not from Arnold Jacobs?

Well, logic doesn´t tell me that either. There is nothing to it I say.

I you think of it, bass trombonists more often then not use more upper lip then lower lip in the mothpiece, there is very few who do it the opposit way, many bass trombone players move the mouthpiece in the lowest range so they get even more upperlip in the mouthpiece.
Quote
On a brass instrument, the greatest length of embouchure is achieved when the lips come together to form an aperture (space between lips) at the diameter of the circular rim of the mouthpiece.

That is absolutely true. But nothing tell me that give me the best resonant sound. Why? Because we are not built symetrically.

There was actually a guy here in Sweden (He is a Norwegian  :)) who tried to prove the the best placemet was 50/50. He did use a robot blowing wind between synthetic lips of different thicknes in a trombone, he did prove that the robot could use a 50/50 placement and did get the strongest overtoneseries. We have teeth, tongue and lots of different muscles that the robpt didn´t have. The longest embouchure possible to get the best sound is not the same as the longest apperture you kan get in the mouthpiece, if you understand what i say.
Logged

Kanstul 1662. Bach 45B. Kanstul 1555. Besson Euphonium. Kanstul 66-S Tuba. Sackbuts in F/E/Eb Bb/A
And several horns I should sell.
timothy42b
*
Offline Offline

Location: Colonial Heights, Virginia, US
Joined: Dec 7, 2000
Posts: 12294

View Profile
« Reply #38 on: Sep 22, 2017, 09:58AM »

I don't know what Jacobs actually taught, I haven't read primary sources.  I guess I've seen a youtube video or two.

From what others say about him, he prefers to concentrate on the musical goal and avoid thinking about mechanics.  He's an Inner Tennis type rather than a Vic Braden.

Quote
Close your eyes and imagine the greatest tuba sound in the world. As you describe it, words such as “full,” “warm,” “dark,” “round,” or “clear,” may come to mind. Now imagine this “world’s greatest tubist” playing the phrase that sits on the music stand before you. Continue to hear this player’s version as you play it, concentrating on that version, rather than yours. This, in a nutshell, emphasizes Mr. Jacobs’ belief that musical thought and tone should be the impetus for performance, and that methodology and technique are, of necessity, their by-product. Thus by providing an excellent musical stimulus of the ideal performer, many other aspects of playing will fall into place.
Quote
Another concern of Arnold Jacobs’ pedagogy is to rid the student of acute self-analysis and concern for machine activity (process) while playing.  Instead, he prefers that students concentrate upon the musical message they wish to convey, or the desired sound of performance (product).  Mr. Jacobs contends that the conscious, analytical faculties of the brain are meant to deal with the challenges of our external environment, or the world around us.  While this rational though process is meant to help us deal with external factors, subconscious thought processes are meant to govern our internal processes, just as they regulate our heart and breathing twenty-four hours a day without conscious control.  This subconscious is equally effective whether used in maintaining balance, speaking, driving, or playing the tuba.  It is when students try to dictate function, rather than simply providing the proper stimulus to achieve the desired result, that they get into trouble.

A couple of snips from the Brubeck article Mr. Wilktone referenced.  

There's no doubt he was a successful teacher but that approach would just have frustrated me.  

Logged

Tim Richardson
svenlarsson

*
Offline Offline

Location: Enskede, Sweden.
Joined: Sep 15, 2001
Posts: 4556

View Profile WWW
« Reply #39 on: Sep 23, 2017, 02:11AM »

Quote
There's no doubt he was a successful teacher but that approach would just have frustrated me.
 

I know that some students react that way.
I don´t think there is any teacher that reach everybody.
Logged

Kanstul 1662. Bach 45B. Kanstul 1555. Besson Euphonium. Kanstul 66-S Tuba. Sackbuts in F/E/Eb Bb/A
And several horns I should sell.
Geezerhorn

*
Offline Offline

Location: PA
Joined: Feb 9, 2012
Posts: 5557
"Lego My Trombone"


View Profile
« Reply #40 on: Sep 23, 2017, 04:13AM »

Perhaps he was relating to more advanced students who already had a firm foundation of the basics well in hand.

He actually kinda reminded me of Chevy Chase in "Caddy Shack". "Be the ball".

I'm poking fun and yet admiring his approach at the same time!

...Geezer

Logged
svenlarsson

*
Offline Offline

Location: Enskede, Sweden.
Joined: Sep 15, 2001
Posts: 4556

View Profile WWW
« Reply #41 on: Sep 23, 2017, 09:54AM »

This is from a teacher named Rocco who dedicates his site to Arnold Jacobs:

Logic doesn't tell me that, but then maybe I just missed it.
I found the sentence, no it was not words from Arnold Jacobs, it was Rocco who talked about "logic" verses
how the embouchure works, he went on a long discoussion that ended ". Does it really matter where the aperture occurs within the mouthpiece rim?"

No, neither Rocco or Arnold Jacobs recomended a 50/50 placement. Rocco could have maid his words another way to not case missunderstandings.
Logged

Kanstul 1662. Bach 45B. Kanstul 1555. Besson Euphonium. Kanstul 66-S Tuba. Sackbuts in F/E/Eb Bb/A
And several horns I should sell.
Pages: 1 2 3 [All]   Go Up
Print
Jump to: