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The Trombone ForumTeaching & LearningPractice Room(Moderator: blast) Double buzz - please help
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Wilktone

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« Reply #20 on: Aug 25, 2017, 08:59AM »

I know that for many it's considered almost blasphemous to criticize Jacobs, but when it came to his discussion about embouchure I think it's fair to ignore it for more reliable sources.

In my opinion, 50/50 is the worst possible mouthpiece placement to start with. If you want to play the odds, place with more upper lip inside. More lower lip inside works best for a minority of players. 50/50 is rarely going to work, one lip or another should predominate inside the mouthpiece and it shouldn't flip directions like the tubist in the double buzzing video.
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« Reply #21 on: Aug 25, 2017, 09:43AM »

A Moderator said to do a search. This is something I found:

Comments?

...Geezer

To simplify:

Double buzz is like a singer having trouble transitioning from an upper register setting to a lower register one. Bel Canto-style vocal teaching speaks of three voices...head voice, mixed voice and chest voice. A high register setting, a low register setting and an area in between those two where one can sing in either voice...a transitional register, perhaps over time becoming even becoming another register of its own. Every brass player that I have ever seen and had them do a diagnostic crossover-the-registers type of test...beginners right through masters... has had not one but multiple sets of easily discerned head-mixed-chest/higher-mixed-lower settings. Not necessarily problematic, but there for the seeing if you know how to look.

The most common areas on trombone are:

1-Around 12th partial F

2-Around 10th partial D

3-Around 7th (or 8th) partial G/Ab

4-Somewhere in the lower part of the 4th partial

5-Somewhere in the lower part of the 3rd partial

And...depending upon rim diameter and mass of lips:

6-Somewhere in the lower part of the 2nd partial

7-Somewhere in the lower part of the trigger 2nd partial

8-Near the pedal G

And...if you are going subsonic:

Several other places down into the triple pedal ranges

Now...nobody who is even an adequate amateur player or student has trouble with all of these transitions. Most of us don't even know that we have them, and that's a good thing. If it works? Fuggedaboudit!!! But when troubles pop up in one's physical playing...not just a double buzz but other transitional or sound problems (also trying to access extreme ranges), these transitional points are a good thing to understand.

They are very easy to observe if you are capable of freebuzzing, fairly easy to access on a cutoff rim or m'pce buzzing if you do those things well and not really all that difficult to feel and hear even on the trombone. (Having a slide helps.) You simply do a fairly slow, fairly quiet set of scalar glisses through a trouble place from good, consistent notes somewhat above and below that area. You will hear/feel a "change" as you go through that area. A subtle turbulence, a change in timbre, even sometimes a total stoppage of sound. There's your transition point. Minimize whatever motions you are depending upon there (Including tongue motions...the back of the tongue, too.) from above and below that mini-range and there you are...playing well. Then do the same thing the next day, and then the next day and the next and the next, etc. until everything is working well.

Problem solved.

Works for me, works for others that I have taught.

Later...

S.
« Last Edit: Aug 26, 2017, 08:26AM by sabutin » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: Aug 26, 2017, 04:17AM »

A while ago, before I found expert instruction, I had to cure a double-buzz on my own. I followed Sam's thinking. It worked. Thanks, Sam!  Good!

...Geezer
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« Reply #23 on: Aug 26, 2017, 07:39AM »

Im a little of topic, but I dont understand how to make a double buzz? I have tried to make it but it seem impossible?

Leif
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Geezerhorn

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« Reply #24 on: Aug 26, 2017, 07:50AM »

Im a little of topic, but I dont understand how to make a double buzz? I have tried to make it but it seem impossible?

Leif

Good for you! Don't tempt it and I hope you get no instructional replies on how to intentionally make one. Who am I kidding, this is TTF!!!!!!!!!

...Geezer
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« Reply #25 on: Aug 26, 2017, 07:59AM »

Im a little of topic, but I dont understand how to make a double buzz? I have tried to make it but it seem impossible?

Leif

try this:

Prepare to play Ab 

open your jaw slightly and push your lower jaw foreward.

Angle the trombone slide upwards slightly. Or angle your head down.

Overblow the Ab with that embouchure setting, almost as if it was a pedal note

if you don't get a double buzz, do the same as above, but add in a flutter tongue until the double buzz happens.

good luck!
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« Reply #26 on: Aug 26, 2017, 09:36AM »

Several years ago I had a double buzz at  . It will occasionally come back after long, loud playing. The solution that works for me is very soft playing in that pitch area and lots of rest. I got the idea from one of several threads here on the forum. It works.
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« Reply #27 on: Sep 02, 2017, 01:40PM »

I had a recurring double buzz on the middle Bb partial (playing a large bore with a 4g).  Switched to a 3G and it didn't occur, although lost a bit in richness of sound and top end range, and needs more air. 8 months later, tried the 4g again and there's no sign of the double buzz.
I'm guessing that the 3G forced me to change something in my embouchure to make the top and bottom more balanced. It's easy to overthink double buzzing so I'll leave my explanation at that.

Worked for me. Ymmv
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« Reply #28 on: Sep 03, 2017, 02:41AM »

Good for you Dave!
Yes it is a question of balance.
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« Reply #29 on: Sep 19, 2017, 08:46AM »

Having a double buzz in our sound is a very annoying thing that comes up often for young brass players.

That double buzz can come from a multitude of factors.

I have made a video specifically on that subject ! Check it out :

https://www.raphaelreiter.com/double-buzz-seal-deal/

AIR LEAKS

Make sure there is no air leaking out of the instrument. Most common places for leaks are the water key and badly greased slides.
Taking care of our instruments is very important. Do not underestimate it. Not only for obvious hygiene reasons but also to make sure the instrument is playing at its best capacity. You wouldn't want to practice thousands of hours and then, during your important recital, be let down by a leaking water key. New corks shouldn't cost more than 1 dollar.

FACIAL HAIR

Yup. Men with big mustaches and soul patches look cool. But they often get a double buzz. The reason is pretty simple: Air leaks between the hair and the mouthpiece.

TENSE EMBOUCHURE

One of the most magnificent things about brass playing is that in order to have a beautiful sound, you need to be relaxed. Your shoulders need to be relaxed. Your body needs to be available to play. You embouchure needs to be solid but relaxed.

If it is too tensed up, the lips won't vibrate in an optimal way, and the sound will be poor, often giving this double buzz feeling.  Check out the video for exampl

Any questions? Please send me an email and I'll answer as fast as possible: brasstalks@gmail.com

Want FREE exercises / etudes / solos in your inbox every weekend?
Sign up to my newsletter: http://www.raphaelreiter.com/subscribe
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« Reply #30 on: Sep 20, 2017, 03:34PM »

FACIAL HAIR

Yup. Men with big mustaches and soul patches look cool. But they often get a double buzz. The reason is pretty simple: Air leaks between the hair and the mouthpiece.

Just for the record, I have both a big mustache and a soul patch (sadly, I don't look cool) and I don't have any problem with air leakage.



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« Reply #31 on: Sep 21, 2017, 05:03AM »

Just for the record, I have both a big mustache and a soul patch (sadly, I don't look cool) and I don't have any problem with air leakage.





Some time ago Doug suggested I try shaving the mustache, as I was having trouble sliding off the right placement when I moved into the low range.  I did and it seemed to help.  It turned out I like how I look better, also. 
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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #32 on: Sep 22, 2017, 05:10AM »

I know that for many it's considered almost blasphemous to criticize Jacobs, but when it came to his discussion about embouchure I think it's fair to ignore it for more reliable sources.

In my opinion, 50/50 is the worst possible mouthpiece placement to start with. If you want to play the odds, place with more upper lip inside. More lower lip inside works best for a minority of players. 50/50 is rarely going to work, one lip or another should predominate inside the mouthpiece and it shouldn't flip directions like the tubist in the double buzzing video.

Absolutely no chance that Arnold Jacobs did recomended to place the mouthpiece 50/50. If you like to know more about Arnold Jacobs there is plenty on the net, on Windsong press you can order the books about him and his methods. As Micheal Lind was my collegue for many years I do know a lot about Arnold Jacobs. This must come from a missunderstanding of what he might have said.
We should remember that many of the world known tubist, trombonist and som trumpet player worship him as the best brass teacher in the world.
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« Reply #33 on: Sep 22, 2017, 06:24AM »

Absolutely no chance that Arnold Jacobs did recomended to place the mouthpiece 50/50.

A tuba player who studied with Jacobs told me that he said to put the mouthpiece where he could get the best sound, BUT also that the most effective embouchure was the longest, which could only be done at 50/50. 

That didn't make sense to me, because I think in terms of aperture, rather than the entire length of embouchure.  I doubt the aperture is as wide as the mouthpiece on any instrument, but maybe that's different for tuba. 
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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #34 on: Sep 22, 2017, 06:48AM »

This is from a teacher named Rocco who dedicates his site to Arnold Jacobs:

Quote
EMBOUCHURE LENGTH

Logic tells us that it would be an advantage for tone production to utilize the longest embouchure possible. If we compare an oboe reed with that of a bassoon, the bassoon reed has much greater potential for resonance because of it’s greater size. If we were to place an oboe reed in the bocal of a bassoon, the sound of the bassoon would be very thin.

On a brass instrument, the greatest length of embouchure is achieved when the lips come together to form an aperture (space between lips) at the diameter of the circular rim of the mouthpiece.

Today most brass players, except for horn, place the mouthpiece on their lips in this manner. However, many very successful brass players, including horn players, shift the mouthpiece up or down so there is a difference between vibrating surface areas of the two lips. If the mouthpiece is shifted so the ratio of upper lip to lower lip is 2:1 (most common), there will be a corresponding ratio of surface area set into resonance.

Logic doesn't tell me that, but then maybe I just missed it.
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Tim Richardson
Wilktone

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« Reply #35 on: Sep 22, 2017, 08:04AM »

Regardless of whether Jacobs ever suggested 50/50 placement was ideal, I feel my points earlier are completely valid.

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We should remember that many of the world known tubist, trombonist and som trumpet player worship him as the best brass teacher in the world.

Svenne, I understand that you're communicating in your non-native language. Many native English speakers also use the term "worship" in a similar context and they mean it metaphorically. Unfortunately, in practice we end up interpreting what Jacobs supposedly said or wrote as "gospel truth." Former students sometimes are even described as "disciples." This isn't just a problem with former students of Jacobs's, but with students who studied or follow the approaches of a myriad of other well-known pedagogues. In my opinion, it's better to look at what they said (and what they did - not always the same thing) and evaluate it on its own merits.

While I find Jacobs's work on respiration and the application of the anatomy of breathing to performing on a brass instrument to be extremely valuable, his discussions on embouchure are lacking. Here is one example that is directly relevant to the topic of a double buzz:

Quote
A common problem is that of a double buzz, or as Jacobs calls it, “segmentation.” This happens when the embouchure is set for vibrations higher than what is actually desired. A major factor is insufficient air to fuel the vibration. It is, in fact, hardly ever an embouchure problem. The tongue’s position is too high and forward in the mouth. To correct segmentation, adjust the embouchure to vibrate at the pitch that is desired – play with a thicker air stream and keep the embouchure open.

"Arnold Jacobs: Song and Wind," Frederikson  (1996), p. 126.

First, this short paragraph is contrary to Jacobs's normal stance that one should always address embouchure problems through focus on music and breathing. Instead, he recommended to "keep the embouchure open." Secondly, while I can see how this advice can help some folks with a double buzz, Doug pointed out how many of the issues in a double buzz are related to a loss of control of the lower lip. Compare Jacobs's advice to Doug's:

Quote
The usual situation is the bottom lip flipping outward when it should be staying in.  Work on keeping the bottom lip tight against the teeth, and limit your volume, and the double buzz will usually go away.

Keeping the embouchure "open" seems to be the exact opposite approach of what Doug is recommending here.

There are other pedagogues and approaches that, in my opinion, more correctly target the issue of a double buzz (and embouchure in general) than Jacobs's.

Dave
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« Reply #36 on: Sep 22, 2017, 09:09AM »

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Svenne, I understand that you're communicating in your non-native language. Many native English speakers also use the term "worship" in a similar context and they mean it metaphorically.
Thankyou for correcting.

The doubble buzz is a funny issue, there are so many ways you make a doubble buzz, and so many way to make it go away. Sometimes keeping the embouchure does work. Also, how do you keep the embouchure open? I can get a doubble buzz just by in a way keeping the embouchure open, I can also get a doubble buzz playing very soft, I can get a doubble buzz keep the bottom lip against the lower teeth. (As you know there was a time when I got paid to perform doubble buzz).
Fredriksons book is a good work (of worship I would say)about Arnold Jacobs, Arnold may have given that advice to someone I don´t know, it might have worked that time. I would not give that advice to someone without knowing the problem. As I remember, that book is the most famous about Arnold Jacobs. Stewarts book ARNOLD JACOBS, THE LEGACY OF A MASTER, is in my opnion a better book if you like to get close to his methods of teaching.
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« Reply #37 on: Sep 22, 2017, 09:54AM »

This is from a teacher named Rocco who dedicates his site to Arnold Jacobs:

Logic doesn't tell me that, but then maybe I just missed it.

I found his site, tried to find the comment but I did not find it. It was a comment from Rocco not from Arnold Jacobs?

Well, logic doesn´t tell me that either. There is nothing to it I say.

I you think of it, bass trombonists more often then not use more upper lip then lower lip in the mothpiece, there is very few who do it the opposit way, many bass trombone players move the mouthpiece in the lowest range so they get even more upperlip in the mouthpiece.
Quote
On a brass instrument, the greatest length of embouchure is achieved when the lips come together to form an aperture (space between lips) at the diameter of the circular rim of the mouthpiece.

That is absolutely true. But nothing tell me that give me the best resonant sound. Why? Because we are not built symetrically.

There was actually a guy here in Sweden (He is a Norwegian  :)) who tried to prove the the best placemet was 50/50. He did use a robot blowing wind between synthetic lips of different thicknes in a trombone, he did prove that the robot could use a 50/50 placement and did get the strongest overtoneseries. We have teeth, tongue and lots of different muscles that the robpt didn´t have. The longest embouchure possible to get the best sound is not the same as the longest apperture you kan get in the mouthpiece, if you understand what i say.
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« Reply #38 on: Sep 22, 2017, 09:58AM »

I don't know what Jacobs actually taught, I haven't read primary sources.  I guess I've seen a youtube video or two.

From what others say about him, he prefers to concentrate on the musical goal and avoid thinking about mechanics.  He's an Inner Tennis type rather than a Vic Braden.

Quote
Close your eyes and imagine the greatest tuba sound in the world. As you describe it, words such as “full,” “warm,” “dark,” “round,” or “clear,” may come to mind. Now imagine this “world’s greatest tubist” playing the phrase that sits on the music stand before you. Continue to hear this player’s version as you play it, concentrating on that version, rather than yours. This, in a nutshell, emphasizes Mr. Jacobs’ belief that musical thought and tone should be the impetus for performance, and that methodology and technique are, of necessity, their by-product. Thus by providing an excellent musical stimulus of the ideal performer, many other aspects of playing will fall into place.
Quote
Another concern of Arnold Jacobs’ pedagogy is to rid the student of acute self-analysis and concern for machine activity (process) while playing.  Instead, he prefers that students concentrate upon the musical message they wish to convey, or the desired sound of performance (product).  Mr. Jacobs contends that the conscious, analytical faculties of the brain are meant to deal with the challenges of our external environment, or the world around us.  While this rational though process is meant to help us deal with external factors, subconscious thought processes are meant to govern our internal processes, just as they regulate our heart and breathing twenty-four hours a day without conscious control.  This subconscious is equally effective whether used in maintaining balance, speaking, driving, or playing the tuba.  It is when students try to dictate function, rather than simply providing the proper stimulus to achieve the desired result, that they get into trouble.

A couple of snips from the Brubeck article Mr. Wilktone referenced.  

There's no doubt he was a successful teacher but that approach would just have frustrated me.  

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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #39 on: Sep 23, 2017, 02:11AM »

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There's no doubt he was a successful teacher but that approach would just have frustrated me.
 

I know that some students react that way.
I don´t think there is any teacher that reach everybody.
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