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Author Topic: Too Good to be True?  (Read 1346 times)
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largobone
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« on: Jul 30, 2017, 06:08PM »

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Professional-Trombone-Sheet-Music-Archive-PDF-FD/142153916055?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D45702%26meid%3D52a0f628e4b74d7db996c771e40b889a%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D131960514623

This is either an incredible value or a complete waste. Seller has 100% positive reviews but I'm still skeptical. Has anyone bought one of these? Are they trustworthy/quality/etc.? Thanks Good!
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« Reply #1 on: Jul 30, 2017, 06:20PM »

It appears to be a mix of IMSLP scores and blatant pirated music.
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« Reply #2 on: Jul 30, 2017, 07:18PM »

Which piece do you suspect are pirated?
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« Reply #3 on: Jul 30, 2017, 07:24PM »

At less than $20 it seems worth it
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« Reply #4 on: Jul 30, 2017, 07:34PM »

Which piece do you suspect are pirated?
I see Hindemith's Symphonic Metamorphosis (orchestral trombone part), Gershwin's Prelude #2 (trombone & piano) and Mancini's The Pink Panther Theme for trombone quartet. I think all of those are still under copyright in the US.
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« Reply #5 on: Jul 30, 2017, 07:39PM »

Yep. I doubt Clarinet Institue is the publusher for Hindemith's music
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"My technique is as good as Initial D"
T-396A - Griego 1C
88HTCL - Griego 1C
36H - DE XT105, C+, D Alto Shank
3B/F Silversonic - Griego 1A ss
pBone (with Yellow bell for bright tone)
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« Reply #6 on: Jul 30, 2017, 08:47PM »

Ferdinand David's Concertino complete with orchestral parts is in there.  Bet Boosey would be upset...
http://www.boosey.com/shop/prod/David-Ferdinand-Concertino-For-Trombone-Op-4-in-Eb-full-score/2058628
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« Reply #7 on: Jul 30, 2017, 08:47PM »

I'd LIKE to believe this is legit.  Are you all sure that those pieces you mention were not voluntarily placed in the PD?  How would one find out?
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« Reply #8 on: Jul 30, 2017, 08:53PM »

Ferdinand David's Concertino complete with orchestral parts is in there.  Bet Boosey would be upset...
http://www.boosey.com/shop/prod/David-Ferdinand-Concertino-For-Trombone-Op-4-in-Eb-full-score/2058628
That is no proof that this piece is in not in the PD.  Many publishers create versions of pieces that are in the PD but put a copyright their particular rendition of it.
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Never look at the conductor. You just encourage them.

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« Reply #9 on: Jul 31, 2017, 12:15AM »

Does the flash drive come with any critters on it that report your passwords back to the vendor?  I'd be afraid to plug this into any of my computers!
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« Reply #10 on: Jul 31, 2017, 04:26AM »

The David Concerto is on IMSLP complete with all parts....

This is just some company repackaging free PD and also pirated music.
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"My technique is as good as Initial D"
T-396A - Griego 1C
88HTCL - Griego 1C
36H - DE XT105, C+, D Alto Shank
3B/F Silversonic - Griego 1A ss
pBone (with Yellow bell for bright tone)
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« Reply #11 on: Jul 31, 2017, 07:11AM »

This is just some company repackaging free PD and also pirated music.

Yup.

One piece pirated makes the whole thing illegal. The seller is breaking the law, and by purchasing it. one is contributing to the devaluing of music and the art musicians produce.

I'd LIKE to believe this is legit.  Are you all sure that those pieces you mention were not voluntarily placed in the PD?  How would one find out?

There is absolutely positively no way that Pink Panther has been voluntarily made PD. Same for Family Guy and a few other things I saw in there just perusing the contents.

This CD is illegal. I'm going to report it.  [Edit: locked out of my ebay account, I gotta reset my password.]


EDIT: Also, much of this stuff comes from a bunch of different, competing publishers. That's probably the easiest way to figure that it's not on the up and up.


There's plenty on IMSLP that is in the public domain. Most people here also have access to a library. There's plenty of ways to access public domain music without contributing to blatant piracy and theft.
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« Reply #12 on: Jul 31, 2017, 07:32AM »

Bozza Ballade is not public domain!

I like that the ad says beware of cheap imitations, and at the bottom contains this:

Quote
Many of our arrangements are copyrighted by our individual staff arrangers. If you see any of our pieces listed anywhere else, please contact us. Notice to other ebay sellers: All music we sell contains our logo and trademark. WE ACTIVELY PROSECUTE COPYRIGHT VIOLATIONS!

Pot, meet kettle.
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« Reply #13 on: Jul 31, 2017, 07:44AM »

Ferdinand David's Concertino complete with orchestral parts is in there.  Bet Boosey would be upset...
http://www.boosey.com/shop/prod/David-Ferdinand-Concertino-For-Trombone-Op-4-in-Eb-full-score/2058628
The David should be public domain (it dates from the 1830's). Kalmus (the publisher of the edition linked elsewhere in this thread) might be able to assert copyright on their edition (i.e., no one can distribute copies on their edition without permission), but that's not what is on IMSLP.

But some of the other stuff?
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« Reply #14 on: Jul 31, 2017, 07:50AM »

I think the Clarinet Institute of LA have been producing these for quite some time for different instruments. I've seen a version with Sequenza V by Berio on it - it isn't listed for this one.
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« Reply #15 on: Jul 31, 2017, 08:49AM »

I guess it's better to be safe than sorry on this sort of thing.

I'll leave it where it is...

Most of the stuff I want is up on IMSLP anyway.
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« Reply #16 on: Jul 31, 2017, 11:53AM »

The David should be public domain (it dates from the 1830's). Kalmus (the publisher of the edition linked elsewhere in this thread) might be able to assert copyright on their edition (i.e., no one can distribute copies on their edition without permission), but that's not what is on IMSLP.

But some of the other stuff?

Kalmus is also in the business of selling PD music, but that is totally legal, and it's nice to get a part that isn't inkjet printed on 8.5x11. I am unsure if they put a copyright notice on their pieces, but most of their editions use plates (or digital copies thereof) that are well older than the date that separates PD from non PD. If the only substantial change they made to the plate is to add a copyright notice and change the fonts of the notation and title, it is actually not protected by copyright law IF (and it's a big if) someone that decides to test the waters of copyright law can show/prove that it is in fact not substantially changed (melody, chords, interpretation of tempos and notation) from the PD edition .... if they are accused of copyright violation.

This is my big frustration with the classical trombone "concerti" by L. Mozart, Wagenseil, et al. The editions commercially out now, especially the piano transcriptions, are likely legitimately under copyright protection, so I can't use them to renotate and rework the pieces to put up on IMSLP for free (they should all be). If I tried to, and got in trouble, I could argue that the original work is PD, and the publisher has a choice. They can say that the pieces indeed are completely faithful to the original work (especially the orchestra score), legitimizing their work, but also (dubiously) nullifying their copyright protection (the melodies and notes, and individual parts from the 1700s cannot be under copyright, even if rewritten in a clean form). They could also choose to say that the pieces are in the spirit of the original work, but reorchestrated and changed enough to warrant copyright protection, which takes away from the legitimacy of their edition, especially the orchestra score.

Now, duh, the obvious answer is "go check the actual PD scores that exist in Europe" ... but, cost of time and travel aside, the libraries holding the work each make you sign a statement saying that you will not release or publish copies of the works if you pay the very high fee for a facsimile. So even if you get these works, or get access to them, you can't release a PD version or scans of originals on IMSLP, even if you wanted to. The libraries are forcing a defacto "copyright" of the PD works they are caring for.

Is this relevant? Yeah, even on this thread. For example, the mention of the David score and Boosey being upset ... well, the fire burning the score aside (which would be great news if I was a publisher and had a copy no one knew about), for a piece like this, if a publisher is claiming copyright, they should also be required to post what about their edition is different from the PD work, or have a statement like "this is a bastardized "arrangement" of this piece and is not what the composer actually wrote", rather than proudly displaying the composer's name AND claiming copyright protection. Copyright law is pretty clear that the original melody rhythms and chords of PD works can't continue to be protected by copyright no matter how much the publisher wishes that was the case. Ownership of the PD originals and doubts are what keep these works from being available to everyone on IMSLP, where they belong.

Should someone buy a new copy of the score from Boosey, scan it, and then put it up on IMSLP (or a thumb drive?)? No. But can someone use a score that claims or silently promises that it's 100% legitimate and true to the original PD work AND claims copyright protection to create a PD version of tge piece for IMSLP? I dunno! It depends on who can prove what the original piece was, and who has seen it!

Can anything that SHOULD be in the PD be protected by copyright as long as it's not a blatant scan job? I wish there was a real answer.

All this to say, Pink Panther is not PD
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"My technique is as good as Initial D"
T-396A - Griego 1C
88HTCL - Griego 1C
36H - DE XT105, C+, D Alto Shank
3B/F Silversonic - Griego 1A ss
pBone (with Yellow bell for bright tone)
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« Reply #17 on: Aug 13, 2017, 08:34AM »

A guy I know bought one of these for Trumpet.

There are a lot of pieces included, but we looked through some we suspected might infringe on copyright and they all turned out to be adaptations newly created by Clarinet Institute.  Things such as pieces originally written for flute and oboe re-written with changes for trumpet duet.

Most of it is obvious PD, but again a lot of that has been re-thought and scored for the specific instrument.  There were very few photo-copies from what I could see, and those I saw were PD material.

These may just be on the up and up.
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Have you noticed, some folk never stick around to help tidy up after practice?
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« Reply #18 on: Aug 13, 2017, 08:50AM »

I decided to buy the Brass Quartet/Quintet USB to see what's doing.

Most of the stuff is PD.  Very few pieces that aren't.  Questionable things are generally adaptations or transcriptions.

Not much more of a copyright violation than the old Fake Books we used back in the day (in fact, probably less).

It does save a lot of download time to have it all in one place.  I thought that was worth the entry fee.

Note: the USB stick is a 1GB with about 340 MB of files.
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