Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length

 
Advanced search

1087036 Posts in 71972 Topics- by 19232 Members - Latest Member: Bach to the future
Jump to:  
The Trombone ForumCreation and PerformanceMusical Miscellany(Moderators: JP, BGuttman) Timing, is it a musically born skill, or is it a learned skill?
Pages: [1]   Go Down
Print
Author Topic: Timing, is it a musically born skill, or is it a learned skill?  (Read 1521 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
savio

*
Offline Offline

Location: Norway
Joined: Aug 10, 2006
Posts: 5114

View Profile WWW
« on: Jul 31, 2017, 01:10PM »

I was just listening George Roberts and always its a bit scary to listen his timing. Its always right on. I have never listen as much as a single note from him being off time? I belive we can learn timing, but I wonder with some players its just a skill they are born with? Its a natural thing they do because of their musical skills they got from when they was born? I also listen he dont stress or struggle to make it. Must be a kind of natural born gift?

Leif
Logged

Bass Trombone - Conn, Holton
watermailonman

*
Offline Offline

Location: Sweden
Joined: Aug 1, 2004
Posts: 1421
"Do your best and then do better"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #1 on: Jul 31, 2017, 01:23PM »

I was just listening George Roberts and always its a bit scary to listen his timing. Its always right on. I have never listen as much as a single note from him being off time? I belive we can learn timing, but I wonder with some players its just a skill they are born with? Its a natural thing they do because of their musical skills they got from when they was born? I also listen he dont stress or struggle to make it. Must be a kind of natural born gift?

Leif

I don't know. I think it is something you are born with, or a part of your character really. Who you are. I don't know if it can be learned. I have had students in early years with perfect timing even though I never talked about it, and others who had absolutely no timing at all in the body. Maybe it can be worked at and become better, but the ones who had bad timing 20 years ago still have it although they are interested, have technical skills and knows about music. Their personality does not include timing. Then if it is to find the right timing in a particular group or ideom then it can be learned but to be able to do that adjustment you need to have timing in the first place. I think it is a personality thing.

And then there are the exceptional ones like George Roberts.

/Tom
Logged

Listen to my playing on soundcloud https://soundcloud.com/user-796193724
Visit my page at https://sites.google.com/site/brazzmusic/

Instruments: King 2b+, Kanstul 1570, Kanstul 1662. m-pieces: Bach 6 3/4, Hammond 12 ML, Hammond 20 BL
Bimmerman
*
Online Online

Location:
Joined: May 12, 2012
Posts: 213

View Profile
« Reply #2 on: Jul 31, 2017, 01:41PM »

Honestly I think there's a part to good timing that is innate and not learned.

I've spent years trying to learn and I still have awful timing. I have had multiple teachers tell me I have bad timing, and despite all efforts to correct it, no progress has been made. I have been told to subdivide or listen to the foot or etc etc etc and nothing has worked. It's extremely frustrating to both not make progress despite trying and to be given up on by more than a few teachers. It's very limiting.

I've survived by going out of my way to try to hear the part first, through recordings or other players. Once I hear it, I can copy it and play with good (or good enough) rhythm from then on. If I am given a new chart to sight read without hearing it, I am pretty hopeless.
Logged
JohnL
Edge Monster

*
Offline Offline

Location: Anaheim, CA, USA
Joined: Aug 1, 2004
Posts: 7194

View Profile WWW
« Reply #3 on: Jul 31, 2017, 02:33PM »

I would say it has elements of both. The inborn ability to "hear" time is a prerequisite to playing in time, but it's just the foundation.
Logged

Question change.
Embrace progress.
Take the time to learn the difference.
robcat2075

*
Offline Offline

Location: Dallas, Texas
Joined: Apr 19, 2009
Posts: 6298

View Profile
« Reply #4 on: Jul 31, 2017, 03:28PM »

Quote
I've survived by going out of my way to try to hear the part first, through recordings or other players. Once I hear it, I can copy it and play with good (or good enough) rhythm from then on. If I am given a new chart to sight read without hearing it, I am pretty hopeless.

I think those are two different things.

Animals like crows and other clever birds can learn to reproduce rhythms in sounds they've heard but that is a rather different skill from seeing symbols on paper and converting those into a performed rhythm.

Subdividing a prevailing beat into parts has got to be something like a math skill that is done in real time.



A while ago we had a thread about how to teach sight reading and i felt that most sight reading is really recognizing patterns that one has previously mastered.


There may indeed be people who can not subdivide a beat in their mind and they somehow make do with continuously adding new notes of approximately correct durations, one after the other. But if you are in a band there's a limit to how far you can go with that and not be aware of the timing of the band.  Something is forcing you to reset and rejoin the band or you will be impossibly out of sync.

Logged

Robert Holmén

Hear me as I Play My Horn


Get your Popper, Dotzauer, or Kummer play-alongs!
Graham Martin
Purveyor of 'HOT' Jazz

*
Offline Offline

Location: Redland Bay, Queensland, AUSTRALIA
Joined: Nov 5, 2000
Posts: 11435
"Dixieland/Mainstream/Big Band"


View Profile
« Reply #5 on: Jul 31, 2017, 04:15PM »

I do not think it is a mathematical thing at all. George Roberts sounds so good because of his interpretation of the written part. That ability comes mainly from listening to music and developing your own feel for a musical line.
Logged

Grah

"May God bless and keep you always
May your wishes all come true
May you always do for others
And let others do for you
May you build a ladder to the stars
And climb on every rung
May you stay......forever young."
robcat2075

*
Offline Offline

Location: Dallas, Texas
Joined: Apr 19, 2009
Posts: 6298

View Profile
« Reply #6 on: Jul 31, 2017, 06:41PM »

Some people can slice a cake in half without a guideline and some people can't.

I'm not saying you need a degree in math to do it, but there is a skill with proportions that is basically unspoken math at work.


Some people can divide a beat in half without a click track and some people can't.

I'm not saying you need a degree in math to do it, but there is a skill with proportions that is basically unspoken math at work.

Logged

Robert Holmén

Hear me as I Play My Horn


Get your Popper, Dotzauer, or Kummer play-alongs!
LowrBrass

*
Offline Offline

Location: Philadelphia-ish, PA
Joined: May 17, 2015
Posts: 391

View Profile
« Reply #7 on: Jul 31, 2017, 08:21PM »

Classic "talent vs. skill" discussion, innit?

Talent alone will get you so far.
Untalented but hard-earned skill will probably get you a little further.
Talent plus skill is the golden ticket, yeah?
Logged
kbiggs

*
Offline Offline

Location: Vancouver WA
Joined: Jun 9, 2006
Posts: 1379

View Profile
« Reply #8 on: Jul 31, 2017, 09:10PM »

http://tromboneforum.org/index.php/topic,86371.0.html
Logged

Kenneth Biggs
Bass & tenor trombone
_______________
“I have known a great many troubles, but most of them never happened.”
  -- Mark Twain
watermailonman

*
Offline Offline

Location: Sweden
Joined: Aug 1, 2004
Posts: 1421
"Do your best and then do better"


View Profile WWW
« Reply #9 on: Aug 01, 2017, 01:21AM »


It took a while to read that article but it was worth every minute.

Thanks😀

/Tom
Logged

Listen to my playing on soundcloud https://soundcloud.com/user-796193724
Visit my page at https://sites.google.com/site/brazzmusic/

Instruments: King 2b+, Kanstul 1570, Kanstul 1662. m-pieces: Bach 6 3/4, Hammond 12 ML, Hammond 20 BL
Kmanbassjam
*
Offline Offline

Location: Melbourne, Australia
Joined: Jun 7, 2015
Posts: 35

View Profile
« Reply #10 on: Aug 01, 2017, 01:37AM »

I think timing is much more of an awareness thing than an inate ability (take that with a grain of salt).

I've seen a lot of evidence in my peers at the Melbourne Conservatorium that simply being engaged in active subdivision (over passively letting a metronome work for you) in their ability to place notes and percieve time has monumentally improved timing.

Additionally to this, if timing was innate, how are so many singers always out of time Evil
Logged
Stretch Longarm
old enough to know better

*
Offline Offline

Location: Washington
Joined: Feb 10, 2004
Posts: 3817

View Profile
« Reply #11 on: Aug 15, 2017, 03:55PM »

George played with Nelson Riddle a lot, backing Sinatra...he probably leaned a lot from Frank's phrasing, as well as from playing with Urbie all those years!
Logged

trombone airflow is 360 degrees. Think about it.
Andrew Meronek

*
Offline Offline

Location: Livonia, MI
Joined: Sep 30, 2001
Posts: 6923
"Justly Intoned"


View Profile
« Reply #12 on: Aug 15, 2017, 05:34PM »

George played with Nelson Riddle a lot, backing Sinatra...he probably leaned a lot from Frank's phrasing, as well as from playing with Urbie all those years!

Yes! Don't underestimate the valuable experience of playing with other musicians with excellent time to develop one's own time. That kind of exposure really does make a difference. And that's something that can't really be refined in the practice room. We gotta get out there and listen.
Logged

"All musicians are subconsciously mathematicians."

- Thelonious Monk
Pages: [1]   Go Up
Print
Jump to: