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The Trombone ForumHorns, Gear, and EquipmentInstruments(Moderators: tbone62, slide advantage) Want to buy new jazz horn but want to demo horns for a time, I need help!
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« on: Aug 04, 2017, 08:44AM »

Hello, so I am going to be a sophomore in college and I am looking to move from my vintage 2b to a new jazz horn. I got a decent deal on a Michael Davis horn. But right now I dont really know whats out there for me that would be the best fit for a professional jazz horn for a long time. I do lots of big band gigs and pit orchestra gigs. Im located in new york. My issue is that I dont want to go out and buy a horn without trying all the top line jazz horns. I am wondering if there is a way that I could get some horns and demo them for like a month so I have some time to live with them and see what I would like best. I feel like going to Dillons and trying out a horn for a few hours isnt the best way to do it and I also was not too impressed with their selection of trombones. I would like to try some Shires, Rath, Yamaha, Bach, and try to figure out what the best fit is. But I dont know where and how I can do this with being able to have time to play the horn as well as get a good deal.
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« Reply #1 on: Aug 04, 2017, 08:52AM »

Dillon has a 30 day return policy, fwiw. Problem with what you're wanting to do is that whomever is lending you the horns is taking a pretty big risk so you basically have to buy all the horns you want even if you end up returning all of them to make sure you don't walk off with the horn.
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« Reply #2 on: Aug 04, 2017, 09:45AM »

Hello, so I am going to be a sophomore in college and I am looking to move from my vintage 2b to a new jazz horn. I got a decent deal on a Michael Davis horn. But right now I dont really know whats out there for me that would be the best fit for a professional jazz horn for a long time. I do lots of big band gigs and pit orchestra gigs. Im located in new york. My issue is that I dont want to go out and buy a horn without trying all the top line jazz horns. I am wondering if there is a way that I could get some horns and demo them for like a month so I have some time to live with them and see what I would like best. I feel like going to Dillons and trying out a horn for a few hours isnt the best way to do it and I also was not too impressed with their selection of trombones. I would like to try some Shires, Rath, Yamaha, Bach, and try to figure out what the best fit is. But I dont know where and how I can do this with being able to have time to play the horn as well as get a good deal.
Pick a horn and play it.  Either the 2B or the Michael Davis will get you through any of those gigs just fine.

I'll bet you spend at least as much time on a computer as you do on your horn.  And I'll bet you own at least one computer, and I'll bet you didn't demo several of them for a time before you settled on the best one.  There are things I like and hate about every computer and every horn I've ever had.

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« Reply #3 on: Aug 04, 2017, 10:40AM »

How about renting some of the ones you want to check out?
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« Reply #4 on: Aug 04, 2017, 10:50AM »

This is the old "paralysis by analysis" problem.  You always think there's a better one just around the corner.

Doug is right.  Buy something if you think it's better than what you have.  If something REALLY better comes along, sell the one you have and buy that.

A day at Dillon's will devinitely weed out the "dogs" (ones you don't like at all).  That could be worth something.
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« Reply #5 on: Aug 04, 2017, 11:30AM »

Get a good 3B or Michael Davis+.

You won't be able to blame the horn.
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« Reply #6 on: Aug 04, 2017, 11:36AM »

I might be reading your post incorrectly but it sounds like you have a Mike Davis Shires? Or you can get one? If you have one I'd say you're all set.
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« Reply #7 on: Aug 04, 2017, 11:49AM »

The MD+ is a heck of a horn.  When I dig my way out of student loan debt, there's a very high chance I'm picking one up. FWIW.
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« Reply #8 on: Aug 04, 2017, 12:00PM »

The MD+ is a heck of a horn.  When I dig my way out of student loan debt, there's a very high chance I'm picking one up. FWIW.

By then there'll be something else :-P
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« Reply #9 on: Aug 04, 2017, 12:10PM »

By then there'll be something else :-P

2117 isn't that far off! Evil
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« Reply #10 on: Aug 04, 2017, 12:29PM »

Damn... :(
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« Reply #11 on: Aug 04, 2017, 03:29PM »

Some folks would kill for a vintage 2B.......
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« Reply #12 on: Aug 04, 2017, 03:39PM »

There is something else now. The XO 1632 RG-LT is a phenomenal .500 bore horn

The XO 1632 RG-LT is the horn of choice for:
John Fedchock
Paul McKee
John Allred
And me!

Check it out. You can get 2  of these, one in the regular brass, and one in gold brass for the price of one Michael Davis Shires.   And,  in my humble opinion, after having tried both horns, I'll take the XO every time.
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« Reply #13 on: Aug 04, 2017, 04:10PM »

Hello, so I am going to be a sophomore in college and I am looking to move from my vintage 2b to a new jazz horn. I got a decent deal on a Michael Davis horn. But right now I dont really know whats out there for me that would be the best fit for a professional jazz horn for a long time. I do lots of big band gigs and pit orchestra gigs. Im located in new york. My issue is that I dont want to go out and buy a horn without trying all the top line jazz horns. I am wondering if there is a way that I could get some horns and demo them for like a month so I have some time to live with them and see what I would like best. I feel like going to Dillons and trying out a horn for a few hours isnt the best way to do it and I also was not too impressed with their selection of trombones. I would like to try some Shires, Rath, Yamaha, Bach, and try to figure out what the best fit is. But I dont know where and how I can do this with being able to have time to play the horn as well as get a good deal.

Where in New York?

Anywhere rationally near Dillon Music in Woodbridge NJ? Go there and try out horns. There are few places in the U.S. where you can try so many.

You also say "I do lots of big band gigs and pit orchestra gigs." Ask to try your colleague's horns. You're in college? try your fellow students' horns. Tryt everything!!!

Plus...if there is one horn that is historically an "everything" horn in the styles in which you play, it's a good-playing brass King 3B. The 2B is to my mind more specialized...playing lead in the mid-to-high ranges it's fine, if maybe a little dated...a little bright for today's preferences, but still pretty good. It just doesn't blend well in lower parts w/other commonly used trombones, and vice-versa, especially at volume. When it's playing lead, many contemporary trombonists have trouble blending with a 2B.

Good luck. I recommend getting an "everything" horn at your age, especially if you do a lot of jazz and commercial work and not much orchestral stuff. Later on? You'll know more about what's what.

S.

P.S. That Shires Michael Davis horn? Is it the .500 bore or the .508 Michael Davis Plus. I find the plus to be a better all-around horn, myself., The .500 bore is kind of light for lots of the work that freelancers do.

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« Reply #14 on: Aug 04, 2017, 07:31PM »

I would just stick with what you have. As others have said, the perfect horn really doesn't exist. All are a compromise in some way or another. You've got a great horn, so work with it and see how you feel about it.

For me it really does take quite a bit of time to really "know" a horn. As you adapt to the horn, eventually any horn will sound "like you".
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« Reply #15 on: Aug 04, 2017, 07:47PM »

Sam is right. If not the 2B, then a 3B. The rest is details.
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« Reply #16 on: Aug 05, 2017, 11:20AM »

There is something else now. The XO 1632 RG-LT is a phenomenal .500 bore horn

The XO 1632 RG-LT is the horn of choice for:
John Fedchock
Paul McKee
John Allred
And me!

Check it out. You can get 2  of these, one in the regular brass, and one in gold brass for the price of one Michael Davis Shires.   And,  in my humble opinion, after having tried both horns, I'll take the XO every time.
And me!
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« Reply #17 on: Aug 05, 2017, 03:24PM »

 The 2B and 3B horns are great if you can find an older classic horn I'm not sure who Sam is talking about having trouble blending with a 2B playing the lead or sounding dated. Never heard that said by anyone. 
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« Reply #18 on: Aug 05, 2017, 08:18PM »

The 2B and 3B horns are great if you can find an older classic horn I'm not sure who Sam is talking about having trouble blending with a 2B playing the lead or sounding dated. Never heard that said by anyone. 

A NY-centric look, I suppose.

Let me put it another way.

In all the time that I have been playing in NYC large ensembles, the only people who have sounded good to me playing lead or in a section on a 2B have been Urbie Green...and he stopped playing it to go to a bigger, less "centered" sound on his Martin Urbie Green model as things changed here...Britt Woodman, possibly Benny Powell (I'm not sure.) and Gary Valente. Britt played a certain way...it was wonderful in the idioms he played, but it was certainly not "modern." Timeless, yes. "Modern?" No. Neither was Bennie's approach, and Gary is a force unto himself. (On a '30s sterling silver 2B with a 6.5AL m'pce...a very uncommon set of equipment to say the least.) I'm sure I'm overlooking a couple of people, but the Conn 6H-ish horns, the King 3Bs and the Bach smallbores pretty much ruled the roost in NYC for about 30+ years, and still do to a somewhat diminished extent as Shires, Edwards, Rath etc. horns have become increasingly popular among working pros.

I didn't mean to ruffle anyone's feathers...sorry if I did. That's just what I have seen here.

Later...

S.

P.S. And Matt Musselman, who sounds so much like a 3B on his 2B that it took me years to realize what he was playing.
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« Reply #19 on: Aug 05, 2017, 09:03PM »

I recently went through the process of buying a new .547 horn.  I had the unique opportunity to do extended trials on about a half dozen Shires, Edwards and Schmelzer horns.  I anticipated that I would make a much better decision with the extended trials.  At the end of the day however I can say that the impressions I developed in the first 30 to 60 minutes with each horn did not change very much at all over the course of weeks of flipping between new horns and the horn that was my daily driver at the time.  In fact, I knew in the first 5 minutes on the T-396 that I had found an instrument that I would not want to part with.  So at the end of the day, some time at Dillons is worth the effort to weed out the horns that just do not mesh with you at all and possibly find a great fit.  No horn is forever and a quality instrument will retain value and allow you to move on in the future as you further mature as a player.  The horn that was "right" for me 25+ years ago as an undergrad at Crane is 15 years in the rear view mirror now ... don't get paralyzed by the choices and over thinking this decision.  Spend the energy in the practice room or listening or getting to concerts.
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« Reply #20 on: Aug 05, 2017, 10:23PM »

A NY-centric look, I suppose.

Let me put it another way.

In all the time that I have been playing in NYC large ensembles, the only people who have sounded good to me playing lead or in a section on a 2B have been Urbie Green...and he stopped playing it to go to a bigger, less "centered" sound on his Martin Urbie Green model as things changed here...Britt Woodman, possibly Benny Powell (I'm not sure.) and Gary Valente. Britt played a certain way...it was wonderful in the idioms he played, but it was certainly not "modern." Timeless, yes. "Modern?" No. Neither was Bennie's approach, and Gary is a force unto himself. (On a '30s sterling silver 2B with a 6.5AL m'pce...a very uncommon set of equipment to say the least.) I'm sure I'm overlooking a couple of people, but the Conn 6H-ish horns, the King 3Bs and the Bach smallbores pretty much ruled the roost in NYC for about 30+ years, and still do to a somewhat diminished extent as Shires, Edwards, Rath etc. horns have become increasingly popular among working pros.

I didn't mean to ruffle anyone's feathers...sorry if I did. That's just what I have seen here.

Later...

S.

P.S. And Matt Musselman, who sounds so much like a 3B on his 2B that it took me years to realize what he was playing.

Larry Farrell?
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« Reply #21 on: Aug 06, 2017, 05:50AM »

Larry Farrell?

Yup. Great player? I forgot. Haven't played with him in a long while. Silver bell?

S.
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« Reply #22 on: Aug 06, 2017, 07:15AM »

Yup. Great player? I forgot. Haven't played with him in a long while. Silver bell?

S.

You're asking if Larry is a great player? When I've played with him, yes! Silver bell? Yes. What about Keith O'Quinn?
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« Reply #23 on: Aug 06, 2017, 11:19AM »

No feathers ruffled.  A .500 bore horn on lead sounds good. A .508 bore horn sounds heavy to me because most of the players on that size horn seem to be using something larger than a 7c. No flies on their playing, it just sounds heavy to me. I guess I grew up expecting a lead to Player to sound like Urbie, or Rex Peer, or Warren Covington, or buddy Morrow, Et al.  That is the sound I have always had in my ears for lead, with .508 and bigger horns as soloist's horns.  For years I played on one of Kai Winding's horns at .491 straight thru. I now play .500 bore. Such differences in sound may just have more to do with the individuals sound concept than with a bore difference of 8/1000ths of an inch or so.
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« Reply #24 on: Aug 06, 2017, 02:46PM »

You're asking if Larry is a great player? When I've played with him, yes! Silver bell? Yes. What about Keith O'Quinn?

I am not "asking," I know damned well how he plays. We came up together. A wonderful player. (I coulda phrased the response better. Written after a long, long day. Duh...)

Keith" My own single bore .508, gold-plated Mt. Vernon Bach 16 as altered by John "Peppy" Pettinato. A glorious horn. I wish I'd never sold it, but I'm glad it's Keith who's got it.

S.

P.S. Silver bell 2Bs are a different animal timbrally. Fuller-sounding than brass 2Bs at mid-volume/mid-range, entirely different loud and high. A very full sound capped by a real "Zing!!!" at volume and in attacks.
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« Reply #25 on: Aug 06, 2017, 04:37PM »

I am not "asking," I know damned well how he plays. We came up together. A wonderful player. (I coulda phrased the response better. Written after a long, long day. Duh...)
Yes you could've.

Keith" My own single bore .508, gold-plated Mt. Vernon Bach 16 as altered by John "Peppy" Pettinato. A glorious horn. I wish I'd never sold it, but I'm glad it's Keith who's got it.

S.
Had forgotten this-should've remembered..

P.S. Silver bell 2Bs are a different animal timbrally. Fuller-sounding than brass 2Bs at mid-volume/mid-range, entirely different loud and high. A very full sound capped by a real "Zing!!!" at volume and in attacks.

I know a great deal about silver bells. I play one and it's a wonderful horn. I just think too much we get caught up in saying that a Shires, Edwards, whatever drowns out a 2B or any other like instrument.
Truly great players have sounds that soar no matter what they play and you can't help but fall into what they're doing IF you know what you're doing. Amateurs or clueless professional players, god help us all. Nothing will help. Then again it's what our individual ears hear are that matters. I go right for the 2B, 3B, or older style horn before anything else. The rest is white noise to my ears.
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« Reply #26 on: Aug 07, 2017, 07:10AM »

Who said that "...a Shires, Edwards, whatever drowns out a 2B or any other like instrument?" It's not about being "drowned out" or drowning others out. It's about fitting a given idiom and blending.

Great instruments all have their places in different idioms and sub-idioms...local styles, different eras, etc. Tommy Dorsey played a 2B...gold plated...and I would be hard pressed to think of any other trombonist more musical than was he. He had great power, great finesse, pretty much everything in between and he set a standard that still exists in his style of swing idioms 80 years later. At his peak, Jack Teagarden played 4H/24H Conns. I would also be pressed to name a single trombonist whose influence surpasses his on the development of jazz trombone. I own a number of 4H/24H horns...good ones. In most of the ensembles in which I play, I wouldn't even think of bringing one in and using it. They are entirely "other" in terms of timbre. I also own several really good TIS Conns from the '30s. Ditto with them. In spades!!! I actually tried to make one...possibly my favorite horn of all time...work in the NYC scene for about a year, maybe 20 years ago. Couldn't do it.

The 2B is the longest-surviving "older" design to be used in contemporary idioms. That says a great deal about its worth and provenance. But I repeat...I work almost daily in mainstream NYC situations, and 2Bs are very rare today in my own working circle.

I don't know any other way to put it. The OP asked for advice about moving on from his vintage 2b to a new jazz horn. I answered him as well as I could. How this thread morphed into a forum on the worth of 2Bs and silver bells in general is beyond me.

Later...

S.
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« Reply #27 on: Aug 07, 2017, 08:37AM »

Who said that "...a Shires, Edwards, whatever drowns out a 2B or any other like instrument?" It's not about being "drowned out" or drowning others out. It's about fitting a given idiom and blending.

Great instruments all have their places in different idioms and sub-idioms...local styles, different eras, etc. Tommy Dorsey played a 2B...gold plated...and I would be hard pressed to think of any other trombonist more musical than was he. He had great power, great finesse, pretty much everything in between and he set a standard that still exists in his style of swing idioms 80 years later. At his peak, Jack Teagarden played 4H/24H Conns. I would also be pressed to name a single trombonist whose influence surpasses his on the development of jazz trombone. I own a number of 4H/24H horns...good ones. In most of the ensembles in which I play, I wouldn't even think of bringing one in and using it. They are entirely "other" in terms of timbre. I also own several really good TIS Conns from the '30s. Ditto with them. In spades!!! I actually tried to make one...possibly my favorite horn of all time...work in the NYC scene for about a year, maybe 20 years ago. Couldn't do it.

The 2B is the longest-surviving "older" design to be used in contemporary idioms. That says a great deal about its worth and provenance. But I repeat...I work almost daily in mainstream NYC situations, and 2Bs are very rare today in my own working circle.

I don't know any other way to put it. The OP asked for advice about moving on from his vintage 2b to a new jazz horn. I answered him as well as I could. How this thread morphed into a forum on the worth of 2Bs and silver bells in general is beyond me.

Later...

S.

Maybe the first part of your quote here wasn't said on this thread but it is a common complaint and topic amongst many players. I'm sure you've seen it somewhere so I don't think that you need to take too much exception to my statement. Hasn't it been discussed here on other threads why you made the change to Shires equipment? Doesn't it have something to do with sound, specifically size of sound?  I'm not trying to be a smartass but wasn't this stated at some point?
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« Reply #28 on: Aug 07, 2017, 10:10AM »

Actually, the gist of the original post was he wanted to borrow a pile of expensive horns and then buy the one he liked best.

I don't know any reasonable way to do this unless you have a bunch of very generous friends or work in a very well-stocked music store.

Sam's comments about the NYC scene are interesting and maybe appropriate.  Seems the standard now is a .508" bore horn (King 3B, Bach 16M, etc.) since that size is pretty much a chameleon and works well in modern applications.

I wonder what Sam's horn is when he has no idea what they are looking for.  What size does he show up with and would it have an F-attachment?  I know for me that would be a Bach 36 with F, but my milieu is very different from his.
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« Reply #29 on: Aug 07, 2017, 04:55PM »

Maybe the first part of your quote here wasn't said on this thread but it is a common complaint and topic amongst many players. I'm sure you've seen it somewhere so I don't think that you need to take too much exception to my statement. Hasn't it been discussed here on other threads why you made the change to Shires equipment? Doesn't it have something to do with sound, specifically size of sound?  I'm not trying to be a smartass but wasn't this stated at some point?

A Shires, Edwards, Rath, whatever "drowning out" other brands of trombone? No, I have not "seen it somewhere." I made the change to Shires equipment because it could deal with overamplified rhythm sections and overwritten, overplayed big band "backgrounds" and still settle down into a trombone section and blend. This has nothing whatsoever to do with "size" of sound, it has to do with overtones and formants.

Show me somewhere that I talked about "drowning out" other players on any instrument. hat is the last thing I want to do. Hell, when I made that switch I was just trying to defend myself against being "drowned out" by over-amplification and the resultant ensemble overblowing. "DRowning pdeople out" is the last thing hat i might aim for.

S.
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« Reply #30 on: Aug 08, 2017, 05:33AM »

A Shires, Edwards, Rath, whatever "drowning out" other brands of trombone? No, I have not "seen it somewhere." I made the change to Shires equipment because it could deal with overamplified rhythm sections and overwritten, overplayed big band "backgrounds" and still settle down into a trombone section and blend. This has nothing whatsoever to do with "size" of sound, it has to do with overtones and formants.

Show me somewhere that I talked about "drowning out" other players on any instrument. hat is the last thing I want to do. Hell, when I made that switch I was just trying to defend myself against being "drowned out" by over-amplification and the resultant ensemble overblowing. "DRowning pdeople out" is the last thing hat i might aim for.

S.

Sam I didn't say that YOU said you were trying to drown people out. Calm down!! Please. Take a chill pill and get back to me with more of your little quotes when you've taken a break from reading something that you're not reading. That's the problem with these Forums.
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« Reply #31 on: Aug 08, 2017, 06:01AM »

Sam I didn't say that YOU said you were trying to drown people out. Calm down!! Please. Take a chill pill and get back to me with more of your little quotes when you've taken a break from reading something that you're not reading. That's the problem with these Forums.

You wrote that drowning out other brands of horns by newer models "...is a common complaint and topic amongst many players." That's not a "little quote," it's simply something that you are trying to say is common. It is not. Not among good players it isn't. It's also "common" to hear people advocate their smile embouchure, a bunched chin or any one of hundreds of different brass fallacies. They're the wrong people to reference. End of story.

I wrote: "A Shires, Edwards, Rath, whatever 'drowning out' other brands of trombone? No, I have not 'seen it somewhere.'" Neither have I ever heard any complaint like that. Not from me nor from anyone else who has shown even an ounce of trombone sense. It sounds like high school-level ignorance, to me.

Take a chill pill?

Sure.

Say something sensible.

S.
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« Reply #32 on: Aug 08, 2017, 06:14AM »

Something sensible. Okay for clarification. Many of the players I've spoken with have complained that trumpet volumes, amongst other things, have caused them to look for horns, specifically tenor trombones, that "play bigger." This, of course is subjective, but it's been stated here on The Forum and I've heard it in real life. So is someone choosing a, let's just stick to one brand, a certain Shires tenor because it plays bigger than say a Bach 16M? Yes as I've heard it out of people's mouths. YES truly great players can make anything happen on about anything. Mutually agreed upon I'm sure. So to be clear: I've never heard Sam Burtis state that he plays Shires equipment because he's trying to drown out other players. Never. But I have heard other players state that they're looking for something bigger sounding in a .500 or .508 bore instrument. Bet on it.
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« Reply #33 on: Aug 08, 2017, 06:24AM »

Bet on it.

Them's fightin words 'round these here parts.
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« Reply #34 on: Aug 08, 2017, 07:19AM »

Something sensible. Okay for clarification. Many of the players I've spoken with have complained that trumpet volumes, amongst other things, have caused them to look for horns, specifically tenor trombones, that "play bigger." This, of course is subjective, but it's been stated here on The Forum and I've heard it in real life. So is someone choosing a, let's just stick to one brand, a certain Shires tenor because it plays bigger than say a Bach 16M? Yes as I've heard it out of people's mouths. YES truly great players can make anything happen on about anything. Mutually agreed upon I'm sure. So to be clear: I've never heard Sam Burtis state that he plays Shires equipment because he's trying to drown out other players. Never. But I have heard other players state that they're looking for something bigger sounding in a .500 or .508 bore instrument. Bet on it.

You write: "Many of the players I've spoken with have complained that trumpet volumes, amongst other things, have caused them to look for horns, specifically tenor trombones, that 'play bigger.'"

I would suggest two things to all of them:

1-Playing "bigger" will not help with the trumpet thing. Not in big bands and other groups that have that tendency. It may make them more audible out front...at great expense in terms of energy, by the way...but the sound that people will be hearing will be...I guess "too dark" comes close. Too heavy. That is the fallacy that plagued orchestral trombonists for years as far as I am concerned, although over the past decade the tide has finally turned against that approach. What they really need is equipment that will play brighter earlier in the volume scale while maintaining an overall good sound. Also with more percussive attacks when needed.

2-And once again I would suggest a good playing King 3B as the least expensive, least complicated and most easily found solution to that problem. Sure, there are others...smaller, more brilliant m'ces, for example, or learning how to hold the horn so it is not playing directly into the floor or the sax section's backs. And of course the ever-popular modular solution that I have used.

My own "Shires solution" was to build individual instruments that did fairly focused things...one for brilliance and projection power, another for moderately restrained acoustic situations, a third as an "everything" horn, etc...and then learn how to play them.  More trouble than it's worth, probably, but everybody needs a hobby, right?  :/ :/ :/

But to address your point directly...where is the "drowning out" in all of this?

Answer?

Nowhere.

Being drowned out?

Yes.

I know the feeling and I don't like it.

But you cannot stop certain instruments, certain players (really good ones, many of them) and certain styles and situations from being able to cover your sound if that is the case. You have to either be able to play up to them or simply not play in those situations. Or of course...sit there and seethe, the worst solution of all as far as I am concerned.

Before I played my first Shires horn...which I immediately bought after play-testing it in a short concert at one of the NYC Brass Conferences (Maybe...I don't know...20 years ago? More, I think.)...I had bought horns of many kinds, trying to get the projection and core that I needed to play in the NYC idioms in which I am involved. It was a .525 bore, the smallest horn Steve was making at the time. After a while...I lent him a number of classic smallbores to examine...he started making smaller modular tenors and I put one together that did it all. For me. I still play it more than any other horn I own, a medium weight .500 bore/7.75" bell that I eventually gold plated for a little more weight to the sound. Result? No more being drowned out, but still able to play well at any volume.

Could I have done the same thing at Rath or Edwards or Greenhoe? Probably, but Shires was relatively close...a 3 hour drive...and Steve designs and makes great instruments. Could i have continued playing the horns I was playing? Certainly...I was working my butt off in NYC at the time. I just wanted more.

Personally.

But drowning out others?

Never in life.

Sometimes as a lead player I wish that others in the section could/would play up to my volume/attack level, but even in those cases I try to modulate my own playing to get an overall good section sound.

I originally took issue with that "drowning out" thing you originally wrote.

Quote
I just think too much we get caught up in saying that a Shires, Edwards, whatever drowns out a 2B or any other like instrument.

I still do.

S.
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« Reply #35 on: Aug 08, 2017, 08:38AM »

Sam you obviously aren't reading what I wrote so I'm bowing out. I'm not going to get caught up in whatever you're trying to sell. I clearly stated that you never said that and you refuse to acknowledge it. You and I have played trombones long enough that I don't feel like I need to justify anything to you, nor you to me. Enjoy whatever you're doing and I'll do the same.
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« Reply #36 on: Aug 08, 2017, 06:12PM »

Sam you obviously aren't reading what I wrote so I'm bowing out. I'm not going to get caught up in whatever you're trying to sell. I clearly stated that you never said that and you refuse to acknowledge it. You and I have played trombones long enough that I don't feel like I need to justify anything to you, nor you to me. Enjoy whatever you're doing and I'll do the same.

Great.

S.
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« Reply #37 on: Aug 09, 2017, 06:37AM »

Talk about feathers ruffled!  All the yah yah about the 2B is meaningless now.  The "new" Elkhart ones don't play remotely like the classic HN White or UMI horn, or for that matter one made 2 or 3 years ago.  IMHO neither does the 3B.  They are well made, but the real King magic is gone.  Go get a 2B or 3B from the 50's or 60's and you will never think of the Elkhart h o runs as Kings again.
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« Reply #38 on: Aug 09, 2017, 06:42AM »

...70's can be pretty good as well!

...Geezer
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« Reply #39 on: Aug 09, 2017, 06:51AM »

My 1970 3BSS plays really nice.

I haven't tried any of the "new Elkhart" horns from Conn or King. I wonder if the rumours are true... I guess horn guys ditching Conn might as well be proof enough.
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« Reply #40 on: Aug 09, 2017, 09:37AM »

Talk about feathers ruffled!  All the yah yah about the 2B is meaningless now.  The "new" Elkhart ones don't play remotely like the classic HN White or UMI horn, or for that matter one made 2 or 3 years ago.  IMHO neither does the 3B.  They are well made, but the real King magic is gone.  Go get a 2B or 3B from the 50's or 60's and you will never think of the Elkhart h o runs as Kings again.

That has been my experience with them as well...only at trade shows, etc., but still...

I think the newer Shires and Courtois .508s that I have played have been pretty classic King 3B-ish, myself. Maybe a just little...heavier. Apparently not quite there yet at Shires, but a little birdie recently told me that they are working on it...

S.
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« Reply #41 on: Aug 09, 2017, 12:50PM »

I've got an Eastlake King 3B from the mid 90s, and I've always liked it. I did once play an SS 2B that nearly came home with me even though I couldn't afford it at the time. It was magical.

If I was to get a 2B, it would have to be SS. I just find them to sound and feel awesome. The Brass 2B's are just not my thing. Too light. SS 3B on the other hand is almost too heavy.

But, it depends on you. A good 3B is very hard to beat. VERY hard. Just make sure you find a good one.
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« Reply #42 on: Aug 10, 2017, 06:57AM »

I've got an Eastlake King 3B from the mid 90s, and I've always liked it. I did once play an SS 2B that nearly came home with me even though I couldn't afford it at the time. It was magical.

If I was to get a 2B, it would have to be SS. I just find them to sound and feel awesome. The Brass 2B's are just not my thing. Too light. SS 3B on the other hand is almost too heavy.

But, it depends on you. A good 3B is very hard to beat. VERY hard. Just make sure you find a good one.

I agree about the silver 2B and 3B. On a 2B the silver makes the horn sound more "modern"...at least in the NYC-centric sense that I am using the term...but on a 3B (although it is often a glorious sound), sometimes with some people it gets a little too glorious, if you know what I mean.

For section work, that is.

Later...

S.
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