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HeyPauly
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« on: Aug 05, 2017, 04:50PM »

What is the next size smaller than a 12C?
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BGuttman
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« Reply #1 on: Aug 05, 2017, 05:05PM »

I had a 14D at one time.

There's also the 15's: 15C and 15E (also EW).

Never saw a 13.
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« Reply #2 on: Aug 05, 2017, 05:52PM »

What is the next size smaller than a 12C?
Tiny.

It would be interesting to know more information.  Do you have a really small jaw?  Or are you trying to get a more confident high range?  Just curious.

The most common reason people ask about sizes smaller than 12C is that they want to aid their high range. However its just no that simple.

The rim size (like 12, 11, 7, 15, etc) should be fitted to your anatomy.  The cup depth can then be adjusted for the range/sound you are having trouble with.  There are other parameters too.

This may be a simplification (no doubt), but more information (and more expertise) would be needed, unless, of course, you are just inquisitive.

In that case, going by Bach numbers it's really hard to answer your question.  Are you taking about rim size, cup depth, bore?

More informative is needed one way or the other.
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« Reply #3 on: Aug 05, 2017, 06:39PM »

I have the newer Bach 15C, 17C and 22C mpcs. While the rim sizes on mine are all a little smaller than a new 12C, the bore on them is larger. That kinda negates any high range advantage for me, so I don't go any smaller than a new 12C. Like you, I was curious. Now I'm not. YMMV.

...Geezer
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« Reply #4 on: Aug 05, 2017, 06:42PM »

Thanks for the replies gents!

My teacher has me working on having a more open aperture. I am currently using a 12C and I am wondering if having a smaller rim would make anchoring my chops easier.

I probably should just practice.

Cheers
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« Reply #5 on: Aug 05, 2017, 06:47PM »

Practice.  In fact, to open up the embouchure I might suggest a LARGER mouthpiece.  Bach sizes there are a little odd.  I might suggest a Schilke/Yamaha 47.  Larger than a 12C/7C but smaller than a 6.5AL.
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« Reply #6 on: Aug 05, 2017, 07:03PM »

Hmm, a larger mouthpiece. Interesting. I may have to try that out. Thanks.
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« Reply #7 on: Aug 05, 2017, 07:15PM »

Hmm, a larger mouthpiece. Interesting. I may have to try that out. Thanks.
Something you're going to learn about brass playing pretty fast is that it's one of the most intuitive and unintuitive things you'll ever encounter in your life.

I agree with Bruce though, sounds like you want a larger piece. Maybe something in the 7c or 6 1/2al range.
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« Reply #8 on: Aug 05, 2017, 07:43PM »

My teacher has me working on having a more open aperture. I am currently using a 12C and I am wondering if having a smaller rim would make anchoring my chops easier.
It sounds like he thinks your sound is maybe lacking in fullness, or core.  The ways to open the aperture depend on why it's not open.  I can think of at least 3 reasons.  There may be more.

1) Your mouthpiece rim is too small.  Easy to correct and fiddle with.  Try a bigger mouthpiece like a Yamaha 47/48 or a Bach 7/6.5.

2) You are pinching your lips together too much causing you to force the air through them.  Your lips should just lightly touch each other at the most.  They need to be free to vibrate vibrantly.

3) You're not opening up your airways enough.  It should feel like you're blowing from you toes, or at least the pit of your stomach.  You should never feel like you're pushing air from your upper chest.  You need to have a big quantity of air behind your tone production whether you are playing loud, long notes, or not.  You need lots of air and a big air cavity available always.

Think of how you would make a big (not loud) 'fat' sound and relate that to what I said above.
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« Reply #9 on: Aug 06, 2017, 02:03AM »

I just read in your profile under 'Your trombones' "Red pBone", and nothing else.

Is that really what you're playing on currently (could just be a tongue-in-cheek entry)?

Incidentally I do have, among others, a (red) pBone, just for fun.

I always feel that it is a little bit stuffy compared to a good brass trombone. That's not a problem for someone with a well developed embouchure and a solid breathing support. However, if you don't have that yet it may aggravate a tendency to constrict your throat in an attempt to compensate for a lack of support. That might be perceived as a not open aperture.

So if you're really playing a pBone I'd check whether a decent brass horn would be better for you.

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« Reply #10 on: Aug 06, 2017, 04:56AM »

I just read in your profile under 'Your trombones' "Red pBone", and nothing else.

Is that really what you're playing on currently (could just be a tongue-in-cheek entry)?

Incidentally I do have, among others, a (red) pBone, just for fun.

I always feel that it is a little bit stuffy compared to a good brass trombone. That's not a problem for someone with a well developed embouchure and a solid breathing support. However, if you don't have that yet it may aggravate a tendency to constrict your throat in an attempt to compensate for a lack of support. That might be perceived as a not open aperture.

So if you're really playing a pBone I'd check whether a decent brass horn would be better for you.


When I played a pBone, that was my observation as well. And yet, there may be something to be said for practicing on one and then actually performing on a good brass 'bone. Similarly, I find I get a more mellow tone on a small-bore horn if I play my large-bore horn with a larger mpc first. Kinda the same idea as playing a while on a bucket mute and then playing open. Or playing outside a while and then coming inside.

...Geezer
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« Reply #11 on: Aug 06, 2017, 07:07AM »



Never saw a 13.


Could that be due to the number 13 being associated with bad luck? Or creating an element of doubt in the players mind, especially after playing a few clams?

And are there any successful m/p's with 13 as a model number? Hmm...

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« Reply #12 on: Aug 06, 2017, 07:09AM »

Could that be due to the number 13 being associated with bad luck? Or creating an element of doubt in the players mind, especially after playing a few clams?

And are there any successful m/p's with 13 as a model number? Hmm...



Hammond, though its sizes are definitely different than Bach's system!
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« Reply #13 on: Aug 06, 2017, 07:10AM »

Schlike 13 is an available trumpet piece
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Dave Taylor

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« Reply #14 on: Aug 06, 2017, 07:34AM »

I have some small pieces I'd be willing to sell for shipping if you're interested. PM me.
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« Reply #15 on: Aug 06, 2017, 08:24AM »

It sounds like he thinks your sound is maybe lacking in fullness, or core.  The ways to open the aperture depend on why it's not open.  I can think of at least 3 reasons.  There may be more.

1) Your mouthpiece rim is too small.  Easy to correct and fiddle with.  Try a bigger mouthpiece like a Yamaha 47/48 or a Bach 7/6.5.

2) You are pinching your lips together too much causing you to force the air through them.  Your lips should just lightly touch each other at the most.  They need to be free to vibrate vibrantly.

3) You're not opening up your airways enough.  It should feel like you're blowing from you toes, or at least the pit of your stomach.  You should never feel like you're pushing air from your upper chest.  You need to have a big quantity of air behind your tone production whether you are playing loud, long notes, or not.  You need lots of air and a big air cavity available always.

Think of how you would make a big (not loud) 'fat' sound and relate that to what I said above.

I do agree with you. But mostly #2, #3 is mostly conected though. The airflow must have a little resistance, but many students make to much resistance from the lips. The lips should actually not be pinched at all, just lighlty touching at the most is well said.
If the lips are pinched the constricted throat is folling. About breathing I like Claude Gordons "Keep you chest high at all times". That makes you blow from the lower part of your abdomen.

Not many players in the world play smaller then 12C. 11C is also small but give acces to more flow.
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« Reply #16 on: Aug 06, 2017, 11:07AM »

I do agree with you. But mostly #2, #3 is mostly conected though. The airflow must have a little resistance, but many students make to much resistance from the lips. The lips should actually not be pinched at all, just lighlty touching at the most is well said.
If the lips are pinched the constricted throat is folling. About breathing I like Claude Gordons "Keep you chest high at all times". That makes you blow from the lower part of your abdomen.

Not many players in the world play smaller then 12C. 11C is also small but give acces to more flow.

 Good!
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« Reply #17 on: Aug 06, 2017, 06:30PM »

Hmm, a larger mouthpiece. Interesting. I may have to try that out. Thanks.

A mouthpiece should fit your face just like a shoe fits your foot. For example, on a large bore tenor I play a mouthpiece with a 2G sized rim which is pretty big compared to what most others play on a large bore. It's comfortable for me and I'm used to it. My high range is better on that mouthpiece than a 4G or 5G. Since it fits my face so well I'm not fighting it.
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« Reply #18 on: Aug 06, 2017, 06:53PM »

Did I miss the part where you asked your teacher for his/her advice on what equipment might suit you better?? I would do that immediately.

That said, if you DO decide to try a different mouthpiece...

12C and 6 1/2AL are both regarded as good starter mouthpieces. 6 1/2 AL has a bigger rim and deeper cup. It's harder to hit high notes, but (a) you can work the range back up (it does take time), and (b) you can get a fatter sound that you'll never get out of a 12C.

(There are also pros who play those two mouthpiece sizes. Don't get all "ewwww, I don't want to play a beginner mouthpiece.")

But talk to your teacher first.
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« Reply #19 on: Aug 07, 2017, 12:37AM »


3) You're not opening up your airways enough.  It should feel like you're blowing from you toes, or at least the pit of your stomach.  You should never feel like you're pushing air from your upper chest.  You need to have a big quantity of air behind your tone production whether you are playing loud, long notes, or not.  You need lots of air and a big air cavity available always

Sorry to interject here but having been working on David Vining's breathing book this is exactly the opposite of what he says. I've changed to breathing from my chest and it's improved my sound and made it easier.

As he says your air doesn't go below your diaphragm.

Nothing to do with mouthpiece size but it could be a factor.

Ross
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« Reply #20 on: Aug 07, 2017, 03:22AM »

Well David was tought strange ideas about breathing, as I was to, with a big push out from the belly.
Now it is generally admitted that is not the best way to inhale.
 
About blowing David use the whole body, both bell and ribs.

Many students try to blow only by squizing the ribs.

They have to learn how to use even the bottom for a good blow.

Davids way work. I like Cauld Gordons "keep the chest high at all times" method.

The important thing is to learn a good blow.
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« Reply #21 on: Aug 07, 2017, 09:59AM »

Sorry to interject here but having been working on David Vining's breathing book this is exactly the opposite of what he says.

As he says your air doesn't go below your diaphragm.
I guess he's welcome to his opinion on this.  Yes, I know the diaphragm sits between the lungs and the stomach, but as you extend the diaphragm and chest to inhale air and create a large air supply/cavity, the sensation is very much felt in you stomach.  If you're not continually breathing that way you are leaving air volume on the table and it wont be there when you need it.

I have listened to many beginners try to extend a note by reducing their air supply only to produce a thin and vague sound when they breath using only their chest.  Just not enough air to get the job done.

I'm not saying you just use the belly, but you don't not use it either.  The sensation is there when you use the chest and belly.  Using the belly alone would be just ... er ... dumb.  Not to mention uncomfortable and difficult to accomplish.
 
I'm no David Vinning, but I know what works for me ... and many others.
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« Reply #22 on: Aug 07, 2017, 11:00AM »

Quote
I'm no David Vinning, but I know what works for me ... and many others.

Maybe!  Its easy to assume you do but unless you've been formally trained in the physiology of breathing, that you may not be doing it right (or that something incidentally works for others, or at least gives the perception that it does). Breathing pedagogy is a major component of most music ed programs; I even had to take a breathing proficiency, diagnosing common problems that most students will face --- and those habits don't die when you become an adult.

Part of Vining's pedagogy, or at least what he mentioned when he did a masterclass at my school, was creating an accurate "body map" -- that is, knowing what is actually inside of your body.  He very strongly cautioned against using metaphors that created anti-body maps or things that were physiologically impossible - such as breathing through your toes.  Its an understandable shorthand, but given the plethora options out there for showing students what actually happens, there isn't much of a reason to substitute and students can easily overcompensate, attempting to follow imprecise instructions. 
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« Reply #23 on: Aug 07, 2017, 05:23PM »

Thanks for all the replies. Lots of food for thought.

Practice.  In fact, to open up the embouchure I might suggest a LARGER mouthpiece.  Bach sizes there are a little odd.  I might suggest a Schilke/Yamaha 47.  Larger than a 12C/7C but smaller than a 6.5AL.

You were right about a larger mouthpiece. I got my hands on a 6.5AL and it is quite different. Going to need to spend some time adjusting to it. Of course the most important thing is to practice.
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