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The Trombone ForumHorns, Gear, and EquipmentMouthpieces(Moderators: BGuttman, Doug Elliott) 2G or not 2G ? That is the question.
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Author Topic: 2G or not 2G ? That is the question.  (Read 4241 times)
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daveyboy37

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« Reply #20 on: Aug 07, 2017, 10:04AM »

I have a Yamaha 58, but never really tried it. It also has a more "modern" throat size than a MV 2G would have, as I think they have the standard .276" standard G throat. Things may have been different back then though.

I guess a lot of it will depend on the specific trombone being played on.
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« Reply #21 on: Aug 07, 2017, 10:47AM »

I have a Yamaha 58, but never really tried it. It also has a more "modern" throat size than a MV 2G would have, as I think they have the standard .276" standard G throat. Things may have been different back then though.

I guess a lot of it will depend on the specific trombone being played on.

Yes, the 58 has a slightly bigger throat and backbore than the 2G but it is balanced out with a slightly heavier blank .. Looking down in the cup, there is not much difference.. On my Holton the 58 work better than my corp. 2G but not so much that i am done testing.. Rim shape is a very important and overlooked issue .. My 2G has a rim very close to a standard 1 1/2G which i dont like very much.. The MV 2 G I used to own ( i know..stupid!! ) was more rounded the way Chris explained..
What about variations in MV 2G's ? I would be a good candidate for a 2G with a rim id ,  just a small smidge bigger..

Trond
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wgwbassbone
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« Reply #22 on: Aug 07, 2017, 11:01AM »

In other news, bass trombonists the world over ditched their 0G and .5G mouthpieces, with the sudden realization that they had been wrong for as long as they could remember. Those notes had all been false notes...

What does even mean?
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« Reply #23 on: Aug 07, 2017, 01:11PM »

Bearing in mind that the discussion begun by Blast concerns a long discredited mouthpiece, and a size long neglected, then the answer is a resounding YES. YES, most players who began playing after the death of the 2G would indeed be quite possible wrong for as long as THEY could remember, if they were young enough to have never met players who used a 2G for a career

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harrison.t.reed
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« Reply #24 on: Aug 07, 2017, 01:25PM »

No offense meant Chris, I was actually commenting on everyone else who is doubting themselves because of your post, in a tongue in cheek newsflash format. I think what your students and yourself are doing really makes a lot of sense. I was more or less pointing out the influence you have. One post and you've got people going "wish I hadn't read that" because now they're gonna have to try a 2G as well.

I actually think that the bass trombone mouthpieces are in general far too large, but that's only based on what I know can be done on a tenor with one valve and a 2G. Most of the monsters I've heard on bass are playing pieces in the negatives, so obviously that works too.
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« Reply #25 on: Aug 07, 2017, 01:30PM »

I actually think that the bass trombone mouthpieces are in general far too large, but that's only based on what I know can be done on a tenor with one valve and a 2G.

Forget a 2G, I hear some guys on 4G-ish rims that have a fat low range.
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Doug Elliott
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« Reply #26 on: Aug 07, 2017, 01:36PM »

Yes, I have too, but my question was more about facility in the low range.

I have surely never had a great low range on mouthpieces in that size range, but  I've also never focused on that end of the spectrum.
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« Reply #27 on: Aug 07, 2017, 01:40PM »

Forget a 2G, I hear some guys on 4G-ish rims that have a fat low range.

Its not about range or what You can do in the low register.. Its about sound !
2G is probably as small as You can go , but can also be " just right " depending on player and / or concept ..
For me , a tenor trombone with no matter how big a mouthpiece is not a bass trombone !

Trond
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Doug Elliott
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« Reply #28 on: Aug 07, 2017, 01:55PM »

We'll I'd say it IS about range and what you can do in the low range.  There's no point in having a perfect sound if it doesn't allow you to use it in the range you need, with facility.
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« Reply #29 on: Aug 07, 2017, 01:59PM »

Yes, I have too, but my question was more about facility in the low range.

I have surely never had a great low range on mouthpieces in that size range, but  I've also never focused on that end of the spectrum either.

Playing bass trombone with a 2G sized mouthpiece , the stereotype beeing ; getting the high register for free, and work like crazy on the  low register.. I suppose that it is a bit more complicated than that..  To get the airstream right is where its at.. I, personally feel that  i get the most resonant low C and B' s  with a 1 1/2G , 2G sized pieces.. Just the right mix of formants in the sound.. Maybe a bit more work in the pedal register, but best sound in the " money register" for bass..  

Trond
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Trombocholik

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« Reply #30 on: Aug 07, 2017, 02:03PM »

All Baсhs of the same size are completely different. I have two 2g : MV and current. MV has a huge throat and wide round rim. It creates a real bass trombone sound. Modern 2g has a narrow throat and narrow round rim. I can easily play high notes on it and I use it on a tenor trombone and euphonium.  On the bass trombone it sounds bad.

In addition, I have two MV 1 and 1/2G. They also have a huge throat and create the perfect bass sound. But one has a round rim and another has flat rim. Also I have a modern Bach 1 1/2g (large letters). It has a narrow round rim and a narrow throat as current 2g. I don't like it. MV is much better.

On the single valve bass the MV 2G sounds better then MV 1 1/2g.
On the two valve bass is vice versa. (IMHO)

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« Reply #31 on: Aug 07, 2017, 02:08PM »

We'll I'd say it IS about range and what you can do in the low range.  There's no point in having a perfect sound if it doesn't allow you to use it in the range you need, with facility.


Ok , within limits , yes . But ; You choose what you want to work at .. I recently ditched the D. Wick 1AL although  it made everything easier in the low range but i would work the rest of my life , and still not get the sound right..
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« Reply #32 on: Aug 07, 2017, 02:16PM »

I think at least in this country, the attractiveness of the sound of the 2G is not in question.... though that is a different story in other places. I have seen, or more accurately heard, a new generation here embrace these old mouthpieces to very good effect.
I suspect that my dental structure will push me back to the 1 1/2G , but it is really fun to try this old warhorse in my downtime and learn a little about how to get it to work.
What is becoming apparent is that the fit of the mouthpiece in the pipe is crucial. Resistance changes with the distance the shank goes in... look up old Sam Burtis posts about Teflon tape.... fit is critical.

Chris Stearn
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harrison.t.reed
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« Reply #33 on: Aug 07, 2017, 02:25PM »

To Tbarh: Definitely. The rim is only so much of the equation. To me, the 2G ish rim allows for insane lows as well as F5 - F#5 (on tenor), but I suspect that what Chris is talking about in the 2G has way more to do with cup and rim contours, as well as the shape and size of the throat.

It makes me wonder if you could get the two different sounds Chris mentioned (the 2G UK sound and the American sound) by keeping the 2G rim size and contour, but changing up the cup and throat to match the larger "american" sounding mouthpieces.
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« Reply #34 on: Aug 07, 2017, 02:46PM »

To Tbarh: Definitely. The rim is only so much of the equation. To me, the 2G ish rim allows for insane lows as well as F5 - F#5 (on tenor), but I suspect that what Chris is talking about in the 2G has way more to do with cup and rim contours, as well as the shape and size of the throat.

It makes me wonder if you could get the two different sounds Chris mentioned (the 2G UK sound and the American sound) by keeping the 2G rim size and contour, but changing up the cup and throat to match the larger "american" sounding mouthpieces.

The Monette BT2 would fit the small rim big elsewhere idea I suppose... does not work for me... dull in a kinda bright way...

Chris Stearn
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« Reply #35 on: Aug 07, 2017, 03:45PM »

All Baсhs of the same size are completely different. I have two 2g : MV and current. MV has a huge throat and wide round rim. It creates a real bass trombone sound. Modern 2g has a narrow throat and narrow round rim. I can easily play high notes on it and I use it on a tenor trombone and euphonium.  On the bass trombone it sounds bad.

In addition, I have two MV 1 and 1/2G. They also have a huge throat and create the perfect bass sound. But one has a round rim and another has flat rim. Also I have a modern Bach 1 1/2g (large letters). It has a narrow round rim and a narrow throat as current 2g. I don't like it. MV is much better.

On the single valve bass the MV 2G sounds better then MV 1 1/2g.
On the two valve bass is vice versa. (IMHO)



Mouthpieces that create a "real bass trombone sound" and a "perfect bass trombone sound"? I'm pretty skeptical of that. Especially seeing as there are so many different approaches and sounds that are considered to be good Bass trombone playing, whatever that means. If you are able to create the perfect bass sound by just plugging in a particular brand of mouthpiece from a particular set of years, I would sure love to hear it!
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« Reply #36 on: Aug 07, 2017, 04:25PM »

dull in a kinda bright way...

I survived the Monette Wars of fin du 20ème siècle Boston.  :/ :/ :/
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« Reply #37 on: Aug 07, 2017, 05:32PM »

The one time I've played a concert series on bass I borrowed my college's Elkhart Conn (independent rotors with "Minick" engraved on the linkages), which came with a Bach 2G mouthpiece...I don't think it was any special era of 2G. The school was entirely uninterested in selling it to me once I was done.

As a tenor player, the 2G was a great setup and introduction to playing bass; I tried a 1.5G on the horn but my teacher at the time suggested I stick with the 2G to better bridge tenor (102 DE setup) and bass. Funnily enough, I had zero decrease in range or endurance or ability on the bass, and it actually felt great! I'm sure I didn't sound like a real bass trombonist, but it was good enough for the gig. I wish I had tried the 2G in my tenor.
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« Reply #38 on: Aug 08, 2017, 12:30AM »

Mouthpieces that create a "real bass trombone sound" and a "perfect bass trombone sound"? I'm pretty skeptical of that. Especially seeing as there are so many different approaches and sounds that are considered to be good Bass trombone playing, whatever that means. If you are able to create the perfect bass sound by just plugging in a particular brand of mouthpiece from a particular set of years, I would sure love to hear it!

Mouthpieces do not DO anything.... they ALLOW the player to do things. The player creates the sound. I have found with my students that moving to a 2G has allowed them to make a darker richer sound (in the conceptual context we work in here) .
For some stupid and frustrating reason, the bass mouthpieces made by Bach in the NY and MV years allow great sounds and have a great feel and have yet to be replicated in a meaningful way.... some are close... none are there... even those stamped Bach.
I think we have to accept that most Americans and most Brits are on a completely different page with equipment and concept. You can admire a musician even if you don't want to sound like them..... look at traditional sports cars in the UK and US... Corvette Stingray v MGB.... the 'vette is all about power for big long straight roads.... the MGB is gutless but goes round bends and is small enough for our little windy roads.... each is great in it's own setting... each is a puzzle in the wrong place.

Chris Stearn
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« Reply #39 on: Aug 08, 2017, 01:29AM »

Thank you, Chris for clarifying.

Mouthpieces that create a "real bass trombone sound" and a "perfect bass trombone sound"? I'm pretty skeptical of that. Especially seeing as there are so many different approaches and sounds that are considered to be good Bass trombone playing, whatever that means. If you are able to create the perfect bass sound by just plugging in a particular brand of mouthpiece from a particular set of years, I would sure love to hear it!

Real bass trombone sound (old 2G):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAtaAwXgYME
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P102lmwZJFE

Perfect bass trombone sound (old 1 1/2G):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dayQIQZtRxo



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