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The Trombone ForumHorns, Gear, and EquipmentMouthpieces(Moderators: BGuttman, Doug Elliott) 2G or not 2G ? That is the question.
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Author Topic: 2G or not 2G ? That is the question.  (Read 3861 times)
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tbathras
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« Reply #60 on: Aug 09, 2017, 07:47AM »

I'm curious if the greats we refer to  - like George and Ray for example - have embouchure setups that predispose them to working well with smaller rims. From what Doug has said in other threads, individuals should have  a "goldilocks" range of rim sizes based on what their optimal embouchure is.  I wonder if anyone (like Doug) has looked at videos of George or Ray, etc, to see if they are the type that would prefer smaller rims in general, or if they are just work horses that relentlessly stuck to their guns and made it work.
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« Reply #61 on: Aug 09, 2017, 08:47AM »

Listening to G.R. and R.P. I say that they have what is sometimes said (not by me) to be an oldfashioned sound, because so many bass players do have a bigger, what is said modern sound.
In USA it is bigger mpc and often bigger sound, In Sweden it is both bigger, and back to normal (smaller).  The size of rim is also a choise of what we like to sound like. Some say that the size of rim is unimportant for the sound, I do not agree.

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« Reply #62 on: Aug 09, 2017, 08:53AM »

I'm curious if the greats we refer to  - like George and Ray for example - have embouchure setups that predispose them to working well with smaller rims.

I think the problem here is wbat you are refering to as smaller rims, were not seen as smaller rims at the time they made their cboices.
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« Reply #63 on: Aug 09, 2017, 09:42AM »

I'm curious if the greats we refer to  - like George and Ray for example - have embouchure setups that predispose them to working well with smaller rims. From what Doug has said in other threads, individuals should have  a "goldilocks" range of rim sizes based on what their optimal embouchure is.  I wonder if anyone (like Doug) has looked at videos of George or Ray, etc, to see if they are the type that would prefer smaller rims in general, or if they are just work horses that relentlessly stuck to their guns and made it work.

Ray Premru did have a pronounced underbite, which tends to allow low range facility and big sound without needing a large mouthpiece. I'm told Bob Hughes has a similar underbite.
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Gabe Langfur
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« Reply #64 on: Aug 09, 2017, 12:13PM »

Ray Premru did have a pronounced underbite, which tends to allow low range facility and big sound without needing a large mouthpiece. I'm told Bob Hughes has a similar underbite.

So maybe with my slight overbite that might not work so well for me.
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« Reply #65 on: Aug 09, 2017, 12:46PM »

So maybe with my slight overbite that might not work so well for me.

Just turn it upside down...
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« Reply #66 on: Aug 09, 2017, 01:58PM »

Ray Premru did have a pronounced underbite, which tends to allow low range facility and big sound without needing a large mouthpiece. I'm told Bob Hughes has a similar underbite.

It is interesting that in the USSR teachers switched students with an underbite on the bass trombone. Underbite was considered an ideal for bass trombone.
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« Reply #67 on: Aug 09, 2017, 02:02PM »

Just turn it upside down...

 Good!
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« Reply #68 on: Aug 09, 2017, 02:53PM »

It is interesting that in the USSR teachers switched students with an underbite on the bass trombone. Underbite was considered an ideal for bass trombone.

That's smart, but it's certainly possible to play well without one.
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Gabe Langfur
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« Reply #69 on: Aug 09, 2017, 03:18PM »

Ray Premru did have a pronounced underbite, which tends to allow low range facility and big sound without needing a large mouthpiece. I'm told Bob Hughes has a similar underbite.

That's very interesting. I think that is what I have, I cannot actually put my bottom teeth behind my top teeth, my top teeth have always sat behind the bottom teeth on my jaw my whole life. That's an underbite isn't it?

What about having an underbite helps with low register? I would love to know more about It, I know very little about how it affects my playing in comparison to others. Mouthpiece wise I believe I have been fairly adaptable my whole life and development as a player. I have never had major issues playing on various sizes after some practice, but I have only ever been able to get a sound I was personally happy with out of schilke 60 kind of size pieces.
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« Reply #70 on: Aug 09, 2017, 03:26PM »

I force an underbite to play pedals.
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« Reply #71 on: Aug 09, 2017, 03:28PM »

Most players with an underbite would be low placement upstream embouchure.  I have also seen a very high placement work with a small underbite.

Low placement can work well with either small or large mouthpieces.
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« Reply #72 on: Aug 09, 2017, 03:52PM »

That's very interesting. I think that is what I have, I cannot actually put my bottom teeth behind my top teeth, my top teeth have always sat behind the bottom teeth on my jaw my whole life. That's an underbite isn't it?

What about having an underbite helps with low register? I would love to know more about It, I know very little about how it affects my playing in comparison to others. Mouthpiece wise I believe I have been fairly adaptable my whole life and development as a player. I have never had major issues playing on various sizes after some practice, but I have only ever been able to get a sound I was personally happy with out of schilke 60 kind of size pieces.

Yes, that's an underbite. My observation is that it seems to allow the kind of space in the mouth you want for the low register without having to manipulate anything.

I've taught two bass trombone players with underbites who presented the same way in early college:

1. easy big sound in the low register with no manipulation necessary - it just falls out, and trying to do something to make a bigger sound only makes it sound unfocused and not respond as well.

and 2. Unusually low cut-off of response in the high register, around F# or G above middle C. One had worked out a radical shift he could do to get high notes out, but it was not practical, and the other simply couldn't play consistently up there.

Both of them learned that they needed to take the usual advice people gave about how to access the high register - actually almost everything about embouchure - and do pretty much the opposite.

Fortunately, the first one I met, Justin Clark now of the Bern Symphony in Switzerland, figured out how to connect his registers (independent of me) and has established himself as a high-level player. He came to visit BU and talked a bit with my second student like this, giving him some clues in about 5 minutes that put him on the path to develop his own high register. He's turned into a very fine young player who is going places.

I now have a student without an underbite but who plays with that kind of angle quite successfully. He's young and developing, but I think he will be very fine.
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« Reply #73 on: Aug 09, 2017, 03:55PM »

Oh, and Justin plays a Laskey 93D - plenty big. I think my more recent student plays on a Griego GP and doesn't want to go any larger.
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« Reply #74 on: Aug 09, 2017, 04:17PM »

Oh, and Justin plays a Laskey 93D - plenty big. I think my more recent student plays on a Griego GP and doesn't want to go any larger.

This is a very interesting read for me Thanks!
It sounds like many of my "symptoms" are quite typical. I play a Laskey 93D and the mouthpiece is put very far down on my face... a lot more lower lip in there than upper, etc...

What sounds slightly different for me is the register thing. I feel like now days I have no "major" issues affecting my lower or upper range and I don't struggle to connect them. However, when I was in high school I had huge problems with low register. I was no superstar as a teenager, but never struggled with any high register music that was put in front of me. For many years though I could barely make a sound below just a middle F in the stave. I worked very hard at the end of high school to develop a low register which I believe I have done successfully. I do have a minor "shift" from middle F in the stave to everything above. It's kind of a "turning point" for me. It's not a big deal though, no one has mentioned it in lessons and I can play smoothly over and through it. I find that I do have to work harder to maintain and refine my low register more so than my upper.

Apologies for selfishly sidetracking the thread, that part of it was very interesting to me.
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« Reply #75 on: Aug 10, 2017, 10:18AM »

No problem with being slightly off topic.... Just note that many of the world's greatest players have a chops break... or even several  of them.... others have no breaks.... and a few get to choose...

Chris Stearn
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« Reply #76 on: Aug 11, 2017, 05:49PM »

I have 2 breaks.
first at pedal G. MAJOR shift for anything below G
High C - anything above high C. all the way up to Double high A
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« Reply #77 on: Aug 20, 2017, 12:44AM »

It's been an interesting experiment, but I have been working this week, and that has been on a Mt Vernon 1 1/2G.... it never really got to the stage of the 2G being a real consideration.... it still hits places on my teeth that make it feel less than right. It did make me look for some old Conn leadpipes which have turned out quite well, at least on my modern Conn.

Chris Stearn
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