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The Trombone ForumTeaching & LearningPractice Room(Moderator: blast) 12 major scales in 2 octaves in 2 minutes?
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Krazzikk

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« on: Aug 10, 2017, 08:17AM »

This year my high school band director has said that he expects us to be able to play all 12 major scales in 2 octaves (where possible)in 2 minutes. I am also pretty sure he wants them in the scale pattern of 4-8-8-8-8-8-8-4 and 4-8-8-4 for the arpeggio as per the Florida Allstate Audition requirements.(4 meaning quarter note and 8 meaning eighth notes)

To me it seems like I would have to play them all absurdly fast to get them in 2 minutes, and I have the range to play them all in 2 octaves.
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timothy42b
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« Reply #1 on: Aug 10, 2017, 08:27AM »

No.  This has come up before and we did the math, you might find it in an old post.  It's not that hard. 

Well, a lot harder on trombone than flute, I guess.
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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #2 on: Aug 10, 2017, 08:28AM »

Sounds like 10 seconds per scale.  I bet you can do it.
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robcat2075

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« Reply #3 on: Aug 10, 2017, 08:29AM »

Think of it in 8ths and 16th rather than quarters and 8ths.

On average, if you were playing at a tempo of four 16ths per second (a reasonable tempo) you could do two octaves up and down in 9 seconds. that leaves another second to breathe, so 10 seconds total per scale and you can fit 12 of those in two minutes.

Yeah, that's doable and not totally crazy.
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Robert Holmén

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timothy42b
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« Reply #4 on: Aug 10, 2017, 08:32AM »

Okay, let me simplify.

There are 15 notes in a two octave scale.

12 times 15 is 180. 

So you need to do 90 notes per minute.  So you have to play quarter notes at 90.  And take a REALLY big breath.  Or quarter notes slightly faster and leave time to breathe. 
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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #5 on: Aug 10, 2017, 08:43AM »

Of course if you are fumbling for the notes in B or Gb ... :/ :-P

Gotta be able to play them confidently.  Even the ones in obscene keys.
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #6 on: Aug 10, 2017, 08:46AM »

I don't think getting all of the notes in for the allotted time is as much of an issue as is precise articulation, intonation, tone and relaxed confidence. You didn't mention what dynamic they want, so why not train at about an mp or even p.

Bruce & I hit our "post" buttons at about the same time.

...Geezer
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BGuttman
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« Reply #7 on: Aug 10, 2017, 09:15AM »

...

Bruce & I hit our "post" buttons at about the same time.

...

3 minutes apart.  Enough for 12 scales in 2 octaves :-P
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #8 on: Aug 10, 2017, 09:25AM »

Totally doable. Even for a high school kid. 2 octaves = 15 notes, or 17 if you count quarters as two notes and don't repeat the first octave note. 17 notes per 2 octaves x 12 scales = 204 notes for all 12 scales. Maybe you need 2 seconds between scales. 204 notes for 12 scales/(120 seconds in 2 minutes - (11 gaps between scales x 2 seconds per gap)) = 2.08 notes per second, 2.08 x 60 = 125 notes per minute, and since "1 note" = 1/8th note, 62 1/4 notes per minute. So that's roughly metronome marking 62 for 12 2 octave scales with 2 seconds between the scales, using the 4-8-8-8-8-8-8-4 rhythm. You can do that.

Or you can figure it another way. You should be able to play a scale comfortably in about 4 seconds, so 2 octaves in 8 seconds. So 12 2 octave scales would take 96 seconds, plus 2 seconds between scales, (11 x 2) is 118 seconds.

Of course this assumes you know your scales and a little math. But, then, that's what music is. Scales and a little math.
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timothy42b
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« Reply #9 on: Aug 10, 2017, 10:29AM »

My math did not include that quarter note eighth note pattern, because I didn't figure out until just now what that 4-8 business meant.

Sorry!

but, still doable

video anybody?  geezer? 
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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #10 on: Aug 10, 2017, 10:59AM »

Here's a MIDI file that plays a Bb and then an F scale, two octaves, up and down, at the required tempo, with a breath in between.

http://www.brilliantisland.com/music/60bpmscales.mid
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Robert Holmén

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Krazzikk

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« Reply #11 on: Aug 10, 2017, 11:15AM »

I should have clarified that I need to play 12 major scales in 2 octaves up and down followed by the respective arpeggio up and down. According to my math, that's 17 downbeats for the scale up 2 octaves and down 2 octaves and 8 more downbeats for the arpeggio. So we have 25 downbeats in total.

25x12scales=300
300/2minutes=150bpm

Maybe I misunderstood my director and he only wants the scales without arpeggios, but I assume he does since he normally expects us to perform major scales with the arpeggios, and the Allstate audition requires arpeggios in the same amount of time.
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timothy42b
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« Reply #12 on: Aug 10, 2017, 11:23AM »

I'm wondering about range. 

If you don't have a trigger, and short arms, the lowest scale you're going to play is F.  Two octaves should be easy.

Above Bb though I would think we're challenging the range of the average high schooler.  Even a long armed kid who can play low E is going to have to nail a high Eb cleanly under pressure.  Is that really doable now?  When I was in high school none of us had that note. 

I also wonder a bit about the wisdom of two octave scales up and down at that age. 
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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #13 on: Aug 10, 2017, 11:26AM »

He said "where possible", that would most likely take away the Eb, Db, D, E, and probably C for most players in high school.
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Krazzikk

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« Reply #14 on: Aug 10, 2017, 11:35AM »

Well I definitely know I can play all of them in two octaves it's just a matter of my flexibility and speed, so I guess if anything I can skip the ones like Eb, Db, D and E that I might not be expected to play as much.

My upwards range is up to about a  Db but I have a trigger and can start my Eb, D and E scales with the trigger.

The musicianship as a whole in our top concert band is one of the better ones in Florida.
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BGuttman
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« Reply #15 on: Aug 10, 2017, 12:38PM »

Again the problem when you have non-trombonists setting the standard.  Pretty easy for a woodwind player (except maybe baritone sax).

Not bad for a trumpet or a French Horn.

Tuba players may find themselves pushed (it takes more time for the big horn to respond)

Brass range is also an issue.  Woodwind players have the whole range almost from the start.  Not so for brass players who need to develop their range (especially upward).  Tuba players need to have almost 4 full octaves to play the literature (think about what that means).  For most kids an octave and 2/3 is usually all you can get.

Do the best you can.  I'm sure you will place high for trombone players.  I hope they are not comparing you to flute players.
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #16 on: Aug 10, 2017, 12:42PM »

But why expect this in the first place? I don't get the reason behind it.
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« Reply #17 on: Aug 10, 2017, 12:45PM »

But why expect this in the first place? I don't get the reason behind it.

Setting up one requirement for all instruments.  Generally a bad idea but adopted because of simplicity (of the minds of the people writing the requirements).
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Bruce Guttman
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« Reply #18 on: Aug 10, 2017, 01:16PM »

Well, we should learn to play in all keys. 

Realistically the first three flat keys (F, Bb, Eb) might cover a huge percentage of high school literature. 
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Tim Richardson
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« Reply #19 on: Aug 10, 2017, 01:19PM »

My math did not include that quarter note eighth note pattern, because I didn't figure out until just now what that 4-8 business meant.

Sorry!

but, still doable

video anybody?  geezer? 

Instructional videos are Harrison's domain!

...Geezer
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